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[SlottsMachine]

Asch Lavigne wrote...

GeneralSlotts193 wrote...

Miranda makes a good candidate for ME3 judas, as well I think, especially if you've "betrayed" Cerberus. 

END GAME SPOILERS 

I did "betray" Cerberus and took an unloyal Miranda with me in to the final battle so I could purposely kill her, and when i told the Illusive Man that I was going to blow the base he told Miranda to stop me and she told him that she quit. Which I thought was really weird because again, she was not loyal. I did her mission for the exp and items but sided with Jack in the fight afterwards and never made up with Miranda.

I always thought that her quiting Cerberus was survival 101, it doesn't help the humanity cause if she gets blown away by Shepard, better to lie in the weeds for a bit. 

[axl99]

@Mondo [And yet we have no problems propping her up on a table.] *shot*

I think it's great that Jack has fans regardless, she's growing on a lot of people - artists in particular.

Modifié par axl99, 03 février 2011 - 08:26 .

[Mondo47]

axl99 wrote...

@Mondo [And yet we have no problems propping her up on a table.] *shot*

Sauce

[royceclemens]

GeneralSlotts193 wrote...

Asch Lavigne wrote...

GeneralSlotts193 wrote...

Miranda makes a good candidate for ME3 judas, as well I think, especially if you've "betrayed" Cerberus. 

END GAME SPOILERS 

I did "betray" Cerberus and took an unloyal Miranda with me in to the final battle so I could purposely kill her, and when i told the Illusive Man that I was going to blow the base he told Miranda to stop me and she told him that she quit. Which I thought was really weird because again, she was not loyal. I did her mission for the exp and items but sided with Jack in the fight afterwards and never made up with Miranda.

I always thought that her quiting Cerberus was survival 101, it doesn't help the humanity cause if she gets blown away by Shepard, better to lie in the weeds for a bit. 

To be fair, I thought Miranda quit Cerberus, loyal or not, because she didn't want to use a machine that took the lives of hundreds of thousands of people for any sort of end.  As hard to like as Miranda can sometimes be, she's not a monster.

Oh, and the ME3 Judas?  My money's on Garrus.

[Asch Lavigne]

If this has been discussed already I apologize. I didn't feel like searching back through 700 pages to check.



I really hope Jack is recruitable in ME3. Given how you could kill anyone you want in ME2, I don't think Bioware could definitely say who would be back in your party. I'd hate if they did and it was like "if you killed them, you are out of luck, you don't get anyone then."



I'm really hoping they leave recruitment open and let us choose who we want to take back. Like if they say "You can take any three people back, go." That seems the most logical, in my opinion, to keep everyone happy. And if you killed someone, well then, that was your choice so...



There are only three or four characters I really like. Two I hated, (thankfully I got the option to kill them off) and the others were in that gray middle zone. I'd just really like to have certain ones back in ME3. Jack is #2 on my list.

[Asch Lavigne]

royceclemens wrote...


To be fair, I thought Miranda quit Cerberus, loyal or not, because she didn't want to use a machine that took the lives of hundreds of thousands of people for any sort of end.  As hard to like as Miranda can sometimes be, she's not a monster.

Oh, and the ME3 Judas?  My money's on Garrus.

Well, they never say why she quits. And as for it being Garrus, I don't think so. I mean he's gone through two games with Shepard, and Sheps been like a mentor to Garrus, I can't see him stabbing us in the back. I really don't think there will be a Judas. All your party members seemed to know and dislike Cerberus. Not one of them (excpet Jacob and Miranda) were there for Cerberus, they were there for you or to save humans. So why would they betray you? Escpecially an alien, given how Cerberus only cares about humanity.

Modifié par Asch Lavigne, 03 février 2011 - 08:54 .

[SlottsMachine]

Mondo47 wrote...

For someone half-naked, as we've said many times here before, Jack is more covered and contained than, I don't know... think of someone well-armored... Grunt. If it wasn't for the nipple-halter we'd probably think she was a scrawny lad because we'd just not notice her chest. Both visually and metaphorically, Jack is shielded in a way Tali, Miranda, Samarinth and even Kelly aren't - she vexes our sight and attempts to engender her, and if we stare long enough we're likely to find her forehead and our noses making sudden and distinctly non-erotic contact. And if we keep staring anyway, we wind up with an enigma almost as big as what quarians really look like. She's like a Bacon painting; visceral and shocking and almost too much to look at comfortably, but once we get the guts to do so, we find a craft beneath it all that awes us... though we'd probably have problems hanging Jack in the living room

Agree here as well, but sometimes I think our maternal instinct towards Jack blinds us from outsider opinions, I'll try and explain this the best I can. I'm sure Mirandians don't view Miranda as being overly sexualized, in the same way we Jackolytes don't view Jack's lack of shirt as Jack being "naked". I've read just as many comments in this forum such as, "I just wanted to put a shirt on her" or "omg she's naked, why wont someone please think of the children," than I've heard comments about Miranda catsuit and her "other stuff". Now, if we disagree with the Mirandians about her being overly sexualized does that make them wrong, and if outsiders view Jack similarly as being overly sexualized, and we Jackolytes disagreeing does that make the outsiders inherently wrong. So what I'm asking, are the Jackolytes always right? I'd say YES      

[SlottsMachine]

royceclemens wrote...


To be fair, I thought Miranda quit Cerberus, loyal or not, because she didn't want to use a machine that took the lives of hundreds of thousands of people for any sort of end.  As hard to like as Miranda can sometimes be, she's not a monster.

Oh, and the ME3 Judas?  My money's on Garrus.

On Miranda quiting,that is the official story, and Garrus is another good chose. 

Modifié par GeneralSlotts193, 03 février 2011 - 08:58 .

[Asch Lavigne]

GeneralSlotts193 wrote...

On Miranda quiting,that is the official story

Where are you getting this from?

FYI, I'm not picking a fight or trying to argue, I'm just simply asking because I apparantley missed it. But it has been sometime since I saw the ending.) I'm waiting for the last DLC to come out before I do the Suicide Mission for my carry over to ME3. Yes, I know, they're supposed to take place after, but given the ending I plan on chosing I don't think it makes sense for me to keep running around doing stuff and being funded by cerberus anymore.)

Modifié par Asch Lavigne, 03 février 2011 - 09:00 .

[SlottsMachine]

Asch Lavigne wrote...

GeneralSlotts193 wrote...

On Miranda quiting,that is the official story

Where are you getting this from?

FYI, I'm not picking a fight or trying to argue, I'm just simply asking because I apparantley missed it. But it has been sometime since I saw the ending.) I'm waiting for the last DLC to come out before I do the Suicide Mission for my carry over to ME3. Yes, I know, they're supposed to take place after, but given the ending I plan on chosing I don't think it makes sense for me to keep running around doing stuff and being funded by cerberus anymore.)

Oh nowhere, just me talking crazy. lol

[Mondo47]

The "Judas Equation" is a big one to ponder, Uncle Royce... Jack wouldn't, because much the same as Grunt, betrayal isn't in their nature on that kind of scale - Jack can see the big picture and Grunt's too damn krogan to even consider backing down. Legion is a favorite, but I can't see it as they would be useless at lying or hiding their intentions - geth don't infiltrate because they don't get how to. Garrus I think has too great a sense of justice to allow a threat to the few people he cares about sell whole species down the swanny. Tali's too much of a Shep-fangal to even think it (she's even had thoughts about Femme-Shep - tease her as a female Shepard and she still gets super-flustered, bless her loving little two-toed socks). Zaeed and Kasumi are too balanced in nature to do something that extreme. Miranda is just too obvious an about-face of loyalty after tossing it all in TIM's face. Samarinth either has too good a grasp on how final the Reapers make things to think escape is feasable. Mordin knows what's at stake. Joker's the plucky comic relief - they never betray you! Kelly's too stupid and Jacob's too dull... hmmm... maybe we should watch them closer...

Nah, in all seriousness, if there is a Judas, I'm expecting it to be the people you've travelled the furthest with... Liara, Kaidan, Ashley, Garrus, Wrex or Anderson. Betrayal isn't in Wrex's vocabulary, so he's out. Liara is unlikely due to her current status, but not impossible. I don't buy Garrus... which leaves the love you left behind or the father-figure. My money's on Anderson... because it's a monstrous trope, naturally

Modifié par Mondo47, 03 février 2011 - 09:10 .

[royceclemens]

I believe, upon seeing the Human Reaper, Miranda says "Using this seems like a betrayal." And I believe her, for one. Upon seeing a Terminator made from human juice I personally would not think to myself "How can I spin this to help my cause and live a little longer." My thoughts would probably run along the lines of "Holy f--k, that is a Terminator made from human juice!"

[SlottsMachine]

royceclemens wrote...

I believe, upon seeing the Human Reaper, Miranda says "Using this seems like a betrayal." And I believe her, for one. Upon seeing a Terminator made from human juice I personally would not think to myself "How can I spin this to help my cause and live a little longer." My thoughts would probably run along the lines of "Holy f--k, that is a Terminator made from human juice!"

True

[royceclemens]

@Mondo: Ah Anderson? How could I have left him out? That would hurt... And be awesome... And hurt some more.



Jack wouldn't betray us. I believe her Shadow Broker dossier said that she's "easily manipulated," and as much as I hate to say it, it's absolutely true. This isn't to say Jack is dumb, far from it, it's just that she prefers grand gestures to subtlety. She likes to throw herself into stuff body and soul, and Jack can be successfully neutralized by staying one step ahead of her.



Liara would be my second choice, as absolute power corrupts absolutely and from where I'm sitting, being the Shadow Broker seems pretty damned absolute.



But I'm sticking with Garrus because of his loyalty mission where he asks "What if somebody betrayed you?" and Shepard just kind of left it hanging there. Now that just looks like foreshadowing. Yeah, he might have left it up in the air fro someone else to stab Shepard in the back, but I'm operating under the assumption that the one who gave voice to the concept is the one who will follow through. Or, if you prefer, "He who smelt it, dealt it."



Plus, let's go with his dossier, which states in so many words, "Unlikely to achieve full potential under Shepard's command." I think Garrus might eventually agree with that assessment after awhile. Were I the one making odds, Garrus would be my favorite at two to one.

[SlottsMachine]

I agree with your reasoning Royce, but would there be another turian betrayal, it may seem like they've got a monopoly on back stabbing or something, with our limited view. Plus, if there is a judas in me3 what are the odds that it'll be a squadmate, seems like that would really ****** some people off. But if it anderson as mondo suggests that would certainly hurt, but at the end of the day most would probably say, at least it wasn't *insert Squad member*.

Modifié par GeneralSlotts193, 03 février 2011 - 09:51 .

[royceclemens]

Well, I'm only handicapping squadmates at this juncture. But I'd almost be tempted to lay money down that it would be someone that close to us. It is the end of a trilogy, after all, and all bets are off. It would upset people, sure, but would it really matter if there's not an ME4?



Let me put it this way: In the unlikely event that there's a Judas and in the even unlikelier unlikely event that it's one of the squaddies, I'm placing my bets on the Turian. It would be a shock with just enough foreshadowing that it wouldn't seem like an ass-pull.



And just to keep it on topic, I'd place Jack about... eighth.

[adriano_c]

royceclemens wrote...

But I'm sticking with Garrus because of his loyalty mission where he asks "What if somebody betrayed you?" and Shepard just kind of left it hanging there. Now that just looks like foreshadowing.

Plus, let's go with his dossier, which states in so many words, "Unlikely to achieve full potential under Shepard's command." I think Garrus might eventually agree with that assessment after awhile. Were I the one making odds, Garrus would be my favorite at two to one.

Nice catch.

Who's he betraying Shepard for, though?

The council (offering to make him a spectre)? Cerberus? What can they offer him?

[royceclemens]

adriano_c wrote...

Nice catch.

Who's he betraying Shepard for, though?

The council (offering to make him a spectre)? Cerberus? What can they offer him?

And that's the part that's getting me.  Betrayal requires a concrete motive, which is something that Garrus could have an easier time finding than Jack would.  I think it might be a development in ME3 that we haven't been introduced to yet.

Of course it could be simple jealousy or frustration.  How many times has a Paragon Shepard pooped on Garrus' party?  Couldn't kill Saleon, couldn't kill Sidonis, couldn't keep the Reaper Ship.  I'd half expect him to pop Shepard one out of simple obstinance.  Plus, after the FCW, having to play second banana to a human must sting something terrible.

This is all speculation of course, which I fully expect to blow up in my face.

[adriano_c]

Doesn't he have some sick sister or whoever? Maybe they exacerbate that and turn it into the cliché "betray friend to save family" thing with Cerberus offering a cure or whatever.

[royceclemens]

Indeed he does, that's right. I'm almost of the impression that the dossiers that outline specific motivations for the characters are ME3 confirmations in and of themselves. Which speaks well for Miranda, Garrus, Samara... And Jack.

[Batlass8]

Seven hundred pages and no Jack picture? Honestly, people, honestly!

[axl99]

Oh. Forgot I scribbled this the other night.

[Mondo47]

She has an air of maturity to her there. I see what you mean too, York. She seems to have not so much a tiredness to her eyes to me though but a world-wearyness; like she's watching something and rolling her eyes. That sense of Wiser-Jack just makes me think to the right, just outside of the frame, Shep is attempting to chastise lil' Miranda Shepard and failing miserably, or Shep is having a strip torn off him by his mother over the link.