20813 réponses à ce sujet

[FenrisDeSolar]

I actually think that seems a pretty in character thing too say...

[SlottsMachine]

 Slow news day, huh? 

Initially after completely ME2, I still felt that I liked Ash just a touch better than Jack, but since I started frequenting this thread I've realized Jack is way more interesting than I originally gave her credit for. And just a shout to all you long times posters, you guys have indoctinated me, and I thank you. 

Does anyone have a similar experience? Or has anyone had a fan thread sway your opinion over time? 

[Confused-Shepard]

Just completed my first play-through of the suicide mission. PS3 version ON HARDCORE!! It was magical. I had un-loyal Miranda and romanced Jack for the boss fight. Dropped boss to 50% armor using Heavy Warp Ammo Viper & Geth Pulse rifle. Finished it off with dual Cain shots while screaming an action movie one liner. Miranda died while I caught Jack. She returned the favor later.

We cuddled for hours later on the ship.



Also, Zaeed died and the guy in the armory as well. Jason was it? His death actually improved the game's performance because it had to go through a brief "LOADING" just as I entered. Now it doesn't do it anymore.

[Epantiras]

Confused-Shepard wrote...
[...] the guy in the armory as well.
Jason was it? His death actually improved the game's performance
because it had to go through a brief "LOADING" just as I entered. Now it
doesn't do it anymore.

This made me laugh, in a good way poor Jacob, he's such a forgettable squadmate that players... well, forget his name
/humor

Anyway, congrats for beating the game

Modifié par Epantiras, 17 février 2011 - 06:37 .

[royceclemens]

Sundown Native wrote...

Can't say I had the same experience. I already knew I was going to like her, when I first saw her. It's just that I had Ashley as a LI, at the time.

I accidentally cheated on her with Jack, because I didn't know how far I'd gone. And I didn't want to come off as and A-hole. Screwed up the entire thing, so I deleted the playthrough, started a new one, to keep that Shepard on the Ash path, and played a new Shepard through ME1 & ME2 for the sole purpose of romancing Jack

I can probably say that I'm the only one who's ever had to do that.

No... No you can't.  Then I did one for Tali because I did one for Jack, and so on and so on... Until I have playthroughs for everyone.  Including Kelly and Samara... And an Ash/Miranda cheat playthrough.

GeneralSlotts193 wrote...
Does anyone have a similar experience? Or has anyone had a fan thread sway your opinion over time? 

God help me, I really like Miranda now.  And all it took was one dialogue choice for me to be brought around.  Under no circumstances should you ever pick the "I just wanted to get you in bed" option.  Jesus H. Christ.

[SlottsMachine]

Not saying I didn't already have a huge amount of affection for Jack in the first place, just that I liked Ash a lot as well. I wouldn't have said this a few months ago, but now thanks to you guys if Ash for whatever reason needed to be sacrifices for us to get more Jack, I'm down.



Royce where you by any chance playing as renegade Shep, I feel Miranda's romance ties perfectly to a renegade.

[royceclemens]

GeneralSlotts193 wrote...
Royce where you by any chance playing as renegade Shep, I feel Miranda's romance ties perfectly to a renegade.

Never done a renegade playthrough of ME2.  It's  where she asks you to promise not to die.  You say you can't and she says that that's enough.  And that's where the central paradox and inherent tragedy of the character comes into play.  For someone who was designed to be perfect, she does a lot of compromising.  Will the dude she likes meet her on her own terms?  Kinda.  Does she have a loving familial relationship?  Kinda.  Is she the apple of the Illusive Man's eye?   Kinda.  No wonder she's so loyal to Cerberus, in regards to both the abstract and distant moral implications of what she does and the immediate and much more pressing issue of an angry bald woman who's threatening to smear the wall with her.  She desperately needs an absolute and this is it.  It's the only thing in her life that isn't being held together by a Band-Aid.

Plus it had long bugged me that people don't like Jack for being unstable and shooting people for "gut feelings" she had... While we open the game with Miranda doing the exact same thing to Wilson.  And I figure, hell, it's a two-way street.

[SlottsMachine]

I agree with this, very insightful, I've never thought about Miranda in that way before, though I do like Miranda somewhat, I was so put off by the end of her romance (not only her actions but shepard as well) that I never really felt she deserved trying to view her on a more meaningful level, but this is definitely something I'll remember for future playthroughs, and in general. 

Modifié par GeneralSlotts193, 17 février 2011 - 08:44 .

[Mondo47]

Confused-Shepard wrote...

Also, Zaeed died and the guy in the armory as well. Jason was it? His death actually improved the game's performance because it had to go through a brief "LOADING" just as I entered. Now it doesn't do it anymore.

*puts on best Miranda-voice*

Ah, Jacob... always making a lasting impression...


Ok, poking fun at one of ME2's only real fluffed characters (he coulda beena contender with a little more personality to him and a little less priiize), I have a question that you might think we're answered already, but I don't think we have properly - we all love Jack here, I get that, but why? How does she speak to us so well? I can't speak for everyone, but I'm pretty sure no-one here would be able to say with a straight face that they would happily invite a recidivist of the worst type into their homes or their hearts, and yet we have.

Sure, she's pretty, and as a species we can forgive all manner of sins if someone's face anf figure fit the bill, but there's more to it than attraction or visual appreciation (we wax lyrical about her like demented urban poets, singing laments of her skin of scars and running eyeliner and nary a thought goes on the damned spots that must mar her hands), and while we can feel sorry for her ordeals and experiences, can that ever justify such a single-mindedly terrible course as plotted by our little voyager... Jack kills people - bad people generally, sure, but how many people have bought the farm due to just being in the wrong place at the wrong time - hanging about at a military parade or being under a falling space station for instance - or as a result of her "gut feelings" that we know are demonstrably wonky. She's a nutcase that can kill you with a hard stare and a track record of behaviour that most people would chalk up to (and do regularly outside of this thread) to being a complete psychopath.

In the past couple of pages there's been a lot of talk about never settling for silence, tragic endings, so on and so forth, like a lot of us are accepting of an inability for Jack to change - but if Jack cannot (or should not) change, how can we accept her as even likable? We're straying close to a line where just on the other side of it is a character that refuses to see the concequences of her actions even when they're less than a nose away from her face: a negligent self-apologist society-made-me-do-it douchebag blaming everyone but themselves and lining up to be counted with Papa Taylor (and frankly who the f*ck could find anything to like about that SOB other than him stopping breathing).

Now come ME3 we'll all be biting our nails; BioWare could reduce her to an email or just say she bailed on us or one of another hundred possibles and I'll hate it if they do any of them, but I can't make a lick of difference to this and accept my powerless state like I'm watching my kid try to go down a slide on a skateboard from a hundred feet away - so why feel like this? What I'm wanting to try and see is why we really want her to come back, why we really want her to live happily ever after (or not in some cases), and why we've devoted 700+ pages to talking about someone who is not as sweeeeeeet as Tali, as eye-candy hawt as Miranda, as respectable as Jacob, as welcome as well-worn-slippers Garrus or Wrex, as comfortable and loyal as Liara, so on and so forth... why did we all get so wound up in someone so-very-nearly-Morinth? Someone that only needs a very short knife to off us considering how close we've got.

So... why do we love Jack? Because I'm wondering if there's more to it than throwing a pity-party for the lab rat with no mommy, the "misunderstood" kid from the wrong side of the tracks, or the gritty anti-heroine who is literally dynamite in the sack regardless of whether we're a boy or a girl. Why did we all wind up being so into the bad girl?

Muse on it - I'll come back later and mark your papers...

(yeah, this is what happens when "Miss Mondo gotta Theory" going on)

[SlottsMachine]

For now I'm just going to say this. Yes, Jack has had a horrible life and I'm sure she's done horrible things that I try not to think about it, and seeing as you want us to look at ourselves critically, I'm just going to come out and say it. I feel sorry for her, her life as been horrible, and people that have gone through that or something similar, they don't get better, they never change, they just die in some ditch, and this time I so badly want something different. In life and in fiction people like Jack never get a happy ending, but why not this time, it would make me so happy if Jack lived a nice happy life within reason. I could care less if she's with Shepard or not, just be happy, be happy.

And now my eyes are starting to well up, I need some air.

Modifié par GeneralSlotts193, 17 février 2011 - 09:19 .

[zewuok]

To be honest I don't really know why I like Jack so much.
It can't be only because of her looks, although I must admit that I like girls that aren't typically girly-looking (long curls, dresses and all that). I'm pretty sure if she'd been a real person I would be a tad scared of Jack hearing about her actions in the news, so I'd probably root for the authorities to capture her so people wouldn't die crushed beneath whatever she plans to bring down next time. And I can't say that I know somebody similar to her that I like, so that argument goes out of the window.
So the only thing that's left is that, either in books, movies or games, I'm always drawn towards "evil" characters, because they feel more human, they seem to be more realistic than your average do-gooder that tries to help everybody with no strings attached. When I play RPG games, even the paper and pen ones, I usually choose neutral evil (or renagon, in ME terms) character whenever it's possible and tend to avoid choosing ultra-bad and ultra-good party members to accompany me. It's limiting available options and I find it boring after some time.
So, back to the topic. I like Jack for her "in your face" attitude and not falling for the almighty Shep in a blink of an eye, but I could say almost the same about Morrigan and she didn't make such an impression on me.

I have to summarize my ramblings with a rephrased quote You look at Jack and she's just like... There's all this... she's like... you know?

PS. "Miss Mondo", don't be too harsh on me, please, english isn't my native language :innocent: (and btw I love your walls of text, I've been browsing through this thread for a while now and I can only say "moar!")

Modifié par zewuok, 17 février 2011 - 10:33 .

[Mondo47]

Ok, I can't wait any longer... bed beckons and all that jazz, but my theory as to why we love Jack so?

Because she's free.

She's beend bound, chained, frozen solid, captured and recaptured, but she always escapes sooner or later. She doesn't give a f*ck about what anyone else thinks. She speaks her mind - it might not always be the most lucid or revealing statement, but it's always what she believes. I think we forgive her sins because on some level we envy them; we wish we could turn the people that wrong us inside out with a dirty look, and be able to walk away from it guilt-free because the bastards deserved it. But above all we envy her will to just not be restrained by anything. In our daily lives we get bound up into tiny little boxes by familial relationships (Jacob and his father issues, Thane and his abandonment of his son, Garrus and his sick mother, Ash and the Military Family History, Miri and her dad, Tali and her dad... whole lotta father issues here...) or by our jobs and careers (Miri and her work ruling all, Ash and the Military again, Zaeed with no friends but memories, Grunt bound by a birthright he can't comprehend, Legion by... being Legion) or by the things we have no control over (Joker's creaky legs, Kelly's rampant stupidity , Liara's wide-eyed naivety). We feel trapped by things. Most of the cast of the game are trapped by things. Jack though, is truly free.

Granted, she is enclosed by her slavish attachment to her past, though on one hand we can argue a trauma that great trumps something as grounded and earthed as a sick relative or being abandoned by a parent - those kinds of trauma we can understand readily, but a childhood of torture and experimentation and deprivation... very, very few people (thankfully) have that kind of ready insight. So Jack remains a free spirit to us; daring to fly in the face of conventional appearance and action, and in a way we would long to dip ourselves into... so we wind ourselves up her ability to escape, and love her for it.

Also, when you bear in mind the issues of the other crew members, Jack is the only one that really changes her perspectives, and thus begins transforming herself. Miri manages to give a little ground and see things Shepard's way, but Tali, Garrus, Jacob, Grunt... everyone else is who they are. Perhaps our own desires for change in ourselves make us love Jack too - and make us want her to keep changing. Not into a different person altogether, but one who could have the happiness we feel she (and by proxy ourselves) so richly deserve. So yes, I say let her have roots - Leon wanted roots, and he was the best! Because if Jack can be happy, we can be happy too.

So sure, we're not the same as Talimancers, or Miridians, or... or... whatever Jacob's fans are called (Priiizewinners?). I think we identify with the bad girl because we want to have what she has - the chance to be free of all the things that hold us in - the societies that don't want to accept our sexualities, the careers that unhappily enslave us, the social networks of humanity that won't let us just be who we want to be - just a few examples, and Jack gives it all the finger. And we wish we could too.

And we can - if the character teaches us nothing else, it's that we can too... just don't drop any space stations on people while you do it, ok?

[SlottsMachine]

 Mondo its funny that if she left us with just an e-mail we jackolytes couldn't even **** that it was out of character, of course she left us with just an e-mail, we probably should have expected it. In terms of crimes she committed I can probably forgive just about anything, unless she's killed a child, either directly or more likely indirectly, then I'd be done with her. Its not like everyone on the Normandy doesn't already of a huge kill list, she probably isn't even the leader, how many has Garrus killed, sure most of them were hardened gangsters, but how many of those are Jonn Whitson's, maybe not exactly innocent but not a hardened gangster either. I don't think we've so much accepting her inability to change, but we've realized she can only change so much, as JD said, it really doesn't seem likely that she would become a student, or hold down a normal job. What I'd need to see from her would be, proof that beyond a shadow of doubt, for all to see, she has morals and feels empathy.    

[NICKjnp]

Wrex mentions that female Krogan have their own clans. I would assume that the sterile females of female clans are likely their warriors.

[Rusty Pabst]

Another of my favorite Jack images:







http://masseffectscr...tains-spoilers/ (WARNING: Link contains a spoiler image from the DLC assignment Overlord.)

[SlottsMachine]

Thanks to Rusty Pabst we have:





Thats Jack's, "Shepard, quit being a moron", face.

Modifié par GeneralSlotts193, 18 février 2011 - 08:17 .

[NICKjnp]

I would prefer to have Tali dead...shot in the face buy Harby, eaten by seeker swarms, dead after the platform fall, screwed up saving the crew, or dead because she screwed up leading the fireteam.