20813 réponses à ce sujet

[zewuok]

Xilizhra wrote...

zewuok wrote...
Sadly, that's how stereotypes work. All blondes are stupid, all Asians have high IQ, all Russians are alcoholics etc. That's why I'm happy that BioWare didn't make Jack bi, 'cause she would be immediately seen as butch, whether we like it or not. The same would go with Miranda if the devs had decided to make her lesbian- she would fall into femme category. If I want to romance Jack I will gladly make another MShep just for that purpose and I'll enjoy it. I'd rather have that than non-romanceable Jack.

Wait... they still fall into straight stereotypes rather easily. How does restricting their sexual orientation change that?

I wouldn't call it restricting. The writers decided on each character's sexual orientation and that's fine by me. That's their vision for a character and I really hope that they won't change their idea without any other reason that just to please the fans. The writers' job is to make sure, that there's more than a stereotype behind each squaddie you have in the game.
IMO Jack with all her cursing, tattoos and shaved head is a stereotype of a tough chick, but we know it's just an exterior part of her. Adding 'bi' to that changes that stereotype, but it's still there- the problem is that the people tend to react stronger to the latter one, 'cause sexuality is a bit of taboo. Let's not forget the what started it- a glimpse of blue boob and butt. BioWare/EA didn't want to risk the sales putting a gay option in ME2 to please a minority. The writers did the best job they could with the material and the restrictions they've been given.
What I'm trying (and failing) to say here is that I'd like to have a same-sex romance in ME3, but I won't riot if its not included. I strongly oppose to any changes in squaddies' sexual orientation and to the idea that Shep is some kind of space catnip to everyone everywhere. And, last but not least, stereotypes aren't all bad, if they're written well the give a sense of familiarity.

(and at this point I'm pretty sure my post didn't make any sense)

Edit:

android654 wrote...
Also, Jack's not a serial killer, she's simply a mass murderer

Just imagine that sentence spoken matter-of-factly at the afternoon tea

Modifié par zewuok, 26 mars 2011 - 02:24 .

[android654]

JohnnyDollar wrote...
Jack acts the same with either gender in the main narrative.  That's her character.  She don't want to be buddies with you.  Romances aren't part of the main narrative.  The way to help Jack is through her loyalty mission.  She thanks Shepard for helping her. 

No, I get she's not a friendly person. Which if anything makes her being amorous towards maleshepard just as confusing. Maleshep and femshep have the same conversations, and the same loyalty mission. Yet she comes to male shepard with open arms, and tells femshep to ****** off. If thats your argument isn't just as weird that she gets involved with shepard at all?

JohnnyDollar wrote...
Why not change the character, you mean?  What do you expect from her?  Make Jack friendly and more approachable?  That's not Jack.

That's not what I meant. I simply meant that if she's not optional as a li for femshep, then a different dialogue track in place of the romance building track with maleshep should've been implemented. Something to show that Femshpes interest in Jack had an impact.

JohnnyDollar wrote...
Have you counted all platonic convos in the game?  I think Jack has the most with either gender, if I'm not mistaken.

Haven't counted to be honest, but i did have convos with every character when they became available. Perhaps you're right, but I think Thane had the most character dialogue out of all the squadmates.

JohnnyDollar wrote...
Patterns of victims are not a prerequisite to be considered a serial killer.  Jack still gets good feelings when killing someone, which would suggest psychological gratification, and I'm sure she has numerous victims.

Being with a woman in her past, is just that.  Sure, you can build from that in the future, but as it stands now, it's an event from her past, which suggests that she was taken advantage of more than anything else.

You're right, a pattern's not required. When I hear serial killer, I think Gacy and the like who definitely had patterns. She does fit the legal definition, then again so does everyone on the normandy.

Manara's involvement with Jack was short, it happened, she thought she was gonna get betrayed, so Manara died. Its not elaborated as to whether it lingered or happened multiple times. But she also makes it clear she doesn't get involved with people on a personal level, its purely carnal. So for that bit there is at least one piece of dialogue that hints at it, but it could go either way.

Modifié par android654, 26 mars 2011 - 02:58 .

[android654]

Dicey1 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, quite frankly, she is nom noms. And for some reason, I really want to nibble on her ears.

This thread got quite entertaining for the last couple of pages:D

Anyways, I don't care if, in ME3, Jack is a "bisexual heteromantic", straight, or "bisexual biromantic"... She's delicious no matter what. And if her appearance changes to suit the shallow players that want her to look more "feminine", I probably won't mind as long as she's still Jack (and Courtney Taylor^_^). Personally I like her appearance as it is, but I think she can make any "look" look good.
And damn, how is she not feminine looking with that gorgeous face and bitable lips?

Agreed, as long as Jask looks and acts like Jack in ME3 then I'll be fine.

[android654]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

android654 wrote...
No, I get she's not a friendly person. Which if anything makes her being amorous towards maleshepard just as confusing. Maleshep and femshep have the same conversations, and the same loyalty mission. Yet she comes to male shepard with open arms, and tells femshep to ****** off. If thats your argument isn't just as weird that she gets involved with shepard at all?

That's not what I meant. I simply meant that if she's not optional as a
li for femshep, then a different dialogue track in place of the romance
building track with maleshep should've been implemented. Something to
show that Femshpes interest in Jack had an impact.

She tells either Shepard to f off, in a couple of scenarios, I believe.

"Yet she comes to male Shepard with open arms".  Not in the main narrative she doesn't.  That's the romance subplot, outside of the main narrative.  You're convoluting the two.  I think that you're also making the assumption  that these romance subplots change the characteristics of the characters in the main narrative, of which there is no indication of this, and all of the LIs are basically stuck on repeat whenever you try to converse with them after the romance.  

Male Shepard doesn't interact with Thane the way that FemShep does with him in the romance either, but what matters in the main narrative, is that you helped him with his son.  I don't think that the devs are going to write a story where the only way a character can be helped is though romancing said character.

Liara is still set on getting revenge, and she recovers Shepard's body, whether she was romanced or not.  If you romanced her, then you get an embrace eternity scene, other than this, Shepard helps Liara hunt down and kill the SB, and she ends up becoming the SB.  Either way, Liara is the same character, romanced or not. 

She only tells Male shep to f*ck off if she's "done talking," at that moment, or if he has sex with Tali or Miranda. She's rough with Male shepard, but she never dismisses him outright. With Femshep she says, "quit pissin' around, I don't wanna play." Two very different interactions.

That's kind of a weak response. So the romance subplot doesn't impact characters at all nor change the narrative? Liara reacts differently to shepard in LOTSB than she did in ME1. That entire piece revolves around Liara, so the way her character changed is vital to her actions and motivations. Her romance with shepard is a big piece of those motivations. If it occurs along the story line, isn't it vital to a story? The whole point of subplots is to further explain characters, actions and motivations outside of the main action, but it isn't removed from the main work.

I mean, if Jack was 100% incapable of any sort of human connection, she would have never said a tenth of the things she said to Shepard at the beginning. To ignore that and have her completely lock out the only person who has genuine interest in her as a person shows she's beyond any type of mending, and then the romance with maleshep seems ridiculous to even contemplate. So if you're worried so much about sticking to the character wouldn't make sense she'd reach out to find some kind of a tether to another person, or continue to be alone?

Also, Thane does reach out to both shepards, the only difference is his degree of amiability towards femshep. Thane will proclaim he has no one, and you have the option to litterally tell him he has you (male/female Shepard) to rely on. If you don't romance thane, the dialogue is almost verbatim for the paragon option at that moment. Something along the lines of that for Jack and femshep would've been good for character development as opposed to locking out big chunks of dialogue.

Also if the romance is superfluous to the story then why have it in the first place?

Modifié par android654, 26 mars 2011 - 04:01 .

[android654]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

android654 wrote...
She only tells Male shep to f*ck off if she's "done talking," at that moment, or if he has sex with Tali or Miranda. She's rough with Male shepard, but she never dismisses him outright. With Femshep she says, "quit pissin' around, I don't wanna play." Two very different interactions.

People do treat one another differently based on gender.  To assume otherwise is naive.  She doesn't want to play with your FemShep, obviously.

That's kind of a weak response. So the romance subplot doesn't impact characters at all nor change the narrative? Liara reacts differently to shepard in LOTSB than she did in ME1. That entire piece revolves around Liara, so the way her character changed is vital to her actions and motivations. Her romance with shepard is a big piece of those motivations.

Incorrect, Liara's motivations and actions are the same, romanced or not, you get the same results.  The romance subplots affect the romance sublots.

If it occurs along the story line, isn't it vital to a story?

In a book or a movie, but not in this game.  It's part of your individual story.  What little of there that exists, unfortunately.

The whole point of subplots is to further explain characters, actions and motivations outside of the main action, but it isn't removed from the main work.

It's removed from the main narrative in this game.  The romance sublots affect themselves.  ME1 and 2 are stand-alone linear games. 

I mean, if Jack was 100% incapable of any sort of human connection, she would have never said a tenth of the things she said to Shepard at the beginning. To ignore that and have her completely lock out the only person who has genuine interest in her as a person shows she's beyond any type of mending, and then the romance with maleshep seems ridiculous to even contemplate. So if you're worried so much about sticking to the character wouldn't make sense she'd reach out to find some kind of a tether to another person, or continue to be alone?

Maybe she is beyond mending.  Look at her history. 

Also, Thane does reach out to both shepards, the only difference is his degree of amiability towards femshep. Thane will proclaim he has no one, and you have the option to litterally tell him he has you (male/female Shepard) to rely on. If you don't romance thane, the dialogue is almost verbatim for the paragon option at that moment. Something along the lines of that for Jack and femshep would've been good for character development as opposed to locking out big chunks of dialogue.

Amiability?  Jack is not an amiamble character, and you want her to be.  Female ≠ male, and vice versa.  There's obviously going to be some differences in dialog.  I don't expect, nor do I desire, for it to be verbatim or almost verbatim, for both genders.

Also if the romance is superfluous to the story then why have it in the first place?

It's a personal-special aspect of your Shepard and his/her love interest.

If it doesn't affect story nor gameplay then its rather pointless to the game altogether. It's either integral to the series in some fashion, or it was a waste of time and resources. Truth is we wont know unitl ME3 is completed anyway.

Also, why keep trying to make me seem like I want Jack to be friendly? I don't. She isn't. But she does show that sought connection from another person, and by leaving that out from the femshep option, the writers left a big hole in the character's development. That's all i'm saying. Not a need for romantic entanglement, but further development of their interraction, because it was done poorly in this area.

[android654]

JohnnyDollar wrote...It's integral, in your Shepard's story. 

So if it's important to a tangent the story could take, then the character keeping her maintaining her character despite the road you travel is vital to keeping with the narrative. I'm glad we agree.

JohnnyDollar wrote...
The romance scene was done poorly as well, I thought.  In particular the snuggling on the bed with tears and mascara running down her cheeks. "Poorly" also depends on what you expect. 

What is a connection?  A friend, mentor, ally?  I don't see this with her character, other than a passive achnolwedgement.  I see Jack as a tragic figure.   I see her as possibly being beyond Shepard's reach.  It doesn't make her character any less meaningful, though, to me.

How can you not see it in her character? Its in her dialogue how poor her experiences are with people and you see how she makes an effort to communicate this to Shepard. She is trying, albeit not extremely hard, as best as she knows how to reach out to Shepard. She wants to find a friend in him/her otherwise she would've been way more guarded about her past and her personality. Trust me, if you know anything about people who're introverted and hostile, you'll know they're impossible to reach, Jack wasn't impossible to reach.

Also, when compared to all other sex scenes in any other game I've scene, Jack's was definitely the most amorous and kept closest to the character.

[LordHelfort]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

android654 wrote...
If it doesn't affect story nor gameplay then its rather pointless to the game altogether.

The members' interest in the LIs on this forum suggests otherwise.  I can imagine Tali driving up sales in ME3.  Possibly to record levels.

It's either integral to the series in some fashion, or it was a waste of time and resources. Truth is we wont know unitl ME3 is completed anyway.

It's integral, in your Shepard's story.  Im not expecting non-linear gameplay and story in ME3.  I'm not saying it won't happen, but Bioware games are pretty linear from what I've seen, and these are stand alone games.  

Also, why keep trying to make me seem like I want Jack to be friendly? I don't. She isn't. But she does show that sought connection from another person, and by leaving that out from the femshep option, the writers left a big hole in the character's development. That's all i'm saying. Not a need for romantic entanglement, but further development of their interraction, because it was done poorly in this area.

The romance scene was done poorly as well, I thought.  In particular the snuggling on the bed with tears and mascara running down her cheeks. "Poorly" also depends on what you expect. 

What is a connection?  A friend, mentor, ally?  I don't see this with her character, other than a passive achnolwedgement.  I see Jack as a tragic figure.   I see her as possibly being beyond Shepard's reach.  It doesn't make her character any less meaningful, though, to me.

Out of curiosity what bothered you about Jacks romance sub-plot and the end scene.

[android654]

JohnnyDollar wrote...
@android
"So if it's important to a tangent the story could take, then the character keeping her maintaining her character despite the road you travel is vital to keeping with the narrative. I'm glad we agree."

No, not the main narrative it's not, if that's what you're saying.  There is only one main narrative with several romance sublots.  The romance sublots only affect themselves.  You interact with the LI, but the interactions do not change the character outside of the romantic dialog itself.  Liara for example, is the same character in the main narrative whether she was romanced or not.  You helped her hunt down the SB.  The only difference is romantic dialog.  In Jack's case, you help her destroy the Teltin facility.  You can do this if you romanced her, didn't romance her, or had sex with her under Engineering.  Either way, that facility is destroyed and Jack is loyal.  There is only one Jack in the main narrative.

Ok, lets drop the romance thing for a second because the conversation is getting off track.

If Jack was truly and completely beyond reach as a person, the events would not have played out as they did. Jack would've discovered the location of The Teltin facility, stolen to kodiak, left by herself and destroyed the facility and never be seen again. That would be the logical pattern of behavior expected from someone who Jack portrayed herself as. Instead she asks for help, and prior to that reveals intimate details about herself and her history. Jack isn't a sociopath or so psychologically scared that she doesn't question herself or try to communicate with other people. Behind the anger is nothing more than "A scared little girl." She alludes to this throughout the game.

In summation, Jack's attitude towards people is more of a defense mechanism than anything else. If it wasn't the case, the dialogue wouldn't support it.

Also, not to be nit picky, but sub-plots tie directly to their main narratives. Its the actual definition of it.

Modifié par android654, 26 mars 2011 - 09:08 .

[grifter024]

First and foremost my sheps heart is to Ashley but for my second playthrough I plan to romance Jack. Out of everyone's love scene Jacks looked the most sincere.

I do have to admit that after reading just this one page I see her differently. I actually do agree with Johnny, Jack might have let down her guard and let in Shep but I can see her still being to far away to actually outright save from her past.

jack was tortured almost her entire life I doubt one person in the span of however long they make 3 take from 2 in game time would change all that in an instant.

I think Jack will die in 3 just due to her past but if you romanced her she would feel bad about leaving the only person that saw her for more then what she could do for them.

[LordHelfort]

With any luck shell remain just as violent and foul-mouthed as she is now.

[android654]

LordHelfort wrote...

With any luck shell remain just as violent and foul-mouthed as she is now.

Fingers f*cking crossed on that. If Jack's not in ME3, it'll be the first Bioware title to suck quad. Seriously, it will.

Modifié par android654, 26 mars 2011 - 11:51 .

[android654]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

android654 wrote...
Ok, lets drop the romance thing for a second because the conversation is getting off track.

If Jack was truly and completely beyond reach as a person, the events would not have played out as they did. Jack would've discovered the location of The Teltin facility, stolen to kodiak, left by herself and destroyed the facility and never be seen again. That would be the logical pattern of behavior expected from someone who Jack portrayed herself as. Instead she asks for help, and prior to that reveals intimate details about herself and her history. Jack isn't a sociopath or so psychologically scared that she doesn't question herself or try to communicate with other people. Behind the anger is nothing more than "A scared little girl." She alludes to this throughout the game.

In summation, Jack's attitude towards people is more of a defense mechanism than anything else. If it wasn't the case, the dialogue wouldn't support it.

Also, not to be nit picky, but sub-plots tie directly to their main narratives. Its the actual definition of it.

Jack would have probably fought to the death before coming aboard a Cerberus vessel to begin with, as far as that goes.  Jack on a Cerberus vessel makes no sense in the story, actually, but for the sake of gameplay...

Regardless of the circumstances, nothing dictates that there will be a happy conclusion to the character, other than your own personal desire.

This is what your reasoning sounds like to me:

"It's not possible that Jack could be truly and completely beyond Shepard's reach, because she was recruited aboard the ship, stayed on the ship, blew up Teltin, and she gave us her tragic back-story.  My Shepard cares about Jack and she needs help, and my Shepard wants to help her, therefore Jack should be helped to my satisfaction." 

Dealing in absolutes, assuming that since you have been presented with a character with a deep and tragic history, which garners your sympathy, and who you want to help, will be helped, and that the character's state is destined to arrive at a personally satisfying conclusion.  If not, then it's poor work done by the writers.  Disregarding the fact that not every character lives happily ever after, just because the character makes you care about it.

*Sigh* We're going round in circles here.

Ok, I'll bullet point what I'm trying to say.

-Jack is not friendly
-Jack doesn't get a "happily ever after," ever
-Jack becomes a little vulnerable around Shepard and says a more than she normally would about herself to another person
-Jack has a singular moment --just one moment, nothing more than just the one-- where she shows her true humanity tho shepard.
-Jack then returns to her guarded state of being.

This is what we saw between Jack and maleshep, the first three with femshep. My point is by not having something akin to the last point in femshep makes 2 different characters out of one. I'm not arguing for a li anymore, I'm arguing for the consistency of the character. you may argue that "romance subplots" are removed from the narrative --which it isn't, but it becomes muddied since its different depending on how you play-- but even in those subplots the Characters remain consistent to their personalities with either shepard except for her. I think the writers summarized characters as Li and non li, and that affected tho real development of her character. Garrus, and Miranda also suffered from this, which I think adds some evidence to my claim.


And no, the post-paragia scene wasn't really the humanizing moment they summarizes the character, Its the dialogue that comes from the next 2 conversations.

[android654]

JohnnyDollar wrote...
Actually, you are arguing for an LI.  You share things with a romantic interest that you don't necessarily share with friends.

Firstly, a romance that doesn't have the elements of friendship, then its just 2 f*ck buddies who can stomach one another long enough to have shallow conversations.

JohnnyDollar wrote...
There is no evidence in the game that suggests that the romance sub-plots affect the main narrative, but the evidence does point to the opposite.  

Regardless, how does that account for the break in character? The sub-plot exists, it involves characters from the main narrative, if she acts one way in one, and different in the other, there has to be an explanation for it. We get on with male shep, not femshep. She begins to open up to her, then shuts down with zero explanation.

JohnnyDollar wrote...
Romance  ≠ friendship.  

Trust me, if you have friends worth having, their irreplaceable, supercedes family or "loves" in any measure of importance, IMO. Those are people you choose to align yourself with, you choose them for a reason, if you're not doing that, then its a shallow relationship and shouldn't matter anyway. So, a romance that doesn't have or originate in some form of friendship, then its originating in a carnal relationship. That's not the case here.

JohnnyDollar wrote...
Do you get the conversations if you didn't blow Teltin?

Don't know, as I always do the missions. But, that doesn't matter since Femshep gets locked out no matter what she does.

Modifié par android654, 27 mars 2011 - 01:57 .

[android654]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

@android654
This discussion is circular.  Actually it's been that way for a little while. 

I'm finished with it on my end. 

Well there's on thing we agree on.

[Mondo47]

I leave for five minutes and you go all pyramidal on me! Honestly!

Just to comment very briefly on the one element that spoke loudest to me in the past few pages - re. the pacing of Jack's sudden turnaround from f*ck you, f*ck Cerberus and f*ck your grandma too to please cuddle me - I personally attribute it to one thing (two if you include the almighty be-all-end-all fact that the game can only be so long so pacing has to suffer somewhat and it's the romances that suffer most - deal with it, smoochin' ain't what the game's about )... Mortality.

Jack knows all about mortality - it's taken away the few things she's cared about (albeit discovered caring for them postpartum). Everything for the characters - if not for us the players - says that the trip through the Omega 4 is not something they'll return from. This is it; the sands of the hourglass are running out. A romanced Jack has come to understand all that discomfort and weakness she feels around Shep is not a bad thing - it's just part of her she's felt the need to supress constantly to keep herself alive. Now big bad Mr Death is knocking on the door, and not even her consummate-survivor attitude can get her out of this. She's seen what the Collectors and the Reapers can do; Jack is not so arrogant or so dumb that she can't appreciate that she's nothing to their might... she's one woman, and these monsters devour whole civilisations. She's a grain of sand on a beach and the tide is coming in fast. No matter how tough she makes herself, she is gonna be moved right off that beach - whoosh. Game over. And as for her little rant about death being an on/off switch, I do not buy that for a second. That's another bit of Jack's front. Life means a lot to her (if it didn't, considering what she's been through she'd probably be dead already either through too many risks or actually just taking things into her own hands and killing herself instead of giving others the chance to end it for her through her actions), and it means as much to others.

Last time she had an emotional investment in someone, she missed her chance to voice it. Now, with the clock ticking, she has a chance to do something she in all honesty she probably throught about last time... I can't see Jack letting her facade get in the way of getting back in touch with that part of her she's kept so tightly wrapped for so long. Sure, Jack's tough, mean, superpowered to all hell and a survivor to the nth degree, but she's always been that fragile, feeling woman inside; one capable of love and allowing herself to be loved. She just hid it away from people that might take advantage, use it or abuse it. Time's running out, though. So she bites the bullet and takes a chance on showing who she's always been inside because she really believes that based on all she's been through in all her life, and everything she's seen while travelling on the Normandy, it's all about to come to an end. So the breaks come off and she risks it all - nothing much to lose either way, as she's going to be dead in a few hours.

I like to think that's why it's so sudden - it's just her time to let it all come out (and it marks anyone that ditches her at that point doubly evil and unworthy of human affection). And hey, it's better than it being because BioWare had to finish the game sometime