20813 réponses à ce sujet

[Errationatus]

Goat_Shepard wrote...

You and I don't have to be a Jack fan or anti-Cerberus to dislike Miranda. I lost it when she b!tched at Joker for losing the crew which is basically yelling at a person in a wheel-chair for not walking up a flight of stairs. lolwut666 pointed out her insolence towards Jack's situation as well, and also towards Shepard by saying she wanted a control chip in your brain followed by being all perky and nice when you get back on the Normandy. Well I'm not buyin it.

Jack wasn't wrong when she called Miranda a cheerleader.  She's basically a stuck-up elitist b!tch wthat had money and privilege and everything she could want and a mean da-da that wanted her to inherit all that wealth and power and privilege and she just didn't wanna haveta do the work, boo-hoo, so she ran away and joined a terrorist organization. 

Patty Hearst, anyone?

Mirianda knows, as they say, the cost of everything and the value of nothing, and in many, many ways is more stunted emotionally than Jack.  Miranda cannot see past herself.  Granted, there is character growth for Miri in-story, but like the woman herself, it's shallow, contrived and not very convincing.

In the engine room?  Really?  *Rolls eyes* What was the point of that?  Staking territory?  Can we add 'childish' to that list, as well?

[naledgeborn]

Goat_Shepard wrote...

You and I don't have to be a Jack fan or anti-Cerberus to dislike Miranda. I lost it when she b!tched at Joker for losing the crew which is basically yelling at a person in a wheel-chair for not walking up a flight of stairs. lolwut666 pointed out her insolence towards Jack's situation as well, and also towards Shepard by saying she wanted a control chip in your brain followed by being all perky and nice when you get back on the Normandy. Well I'm not buyin it.

Miranda is my canon LI. And I see your point. But she's the "Cerbeus Loyalist". That's part of her character up until the end depending on your decision. I'm not trying to buy empathy here, just wondering why it's so hard for people to find her "redeeming" qualites when you (and I) can find them in Jack. I guess it's cause Miranda was written by two different people. To really get to know her you have to delve deep. Otherwise yes, she does come off as a pretentious b*tch but that's what drew me to her. The whole "melting the ice queen" trope. But also because she's the most pragmatic LI of the 9 available options.

@ Godwood, Jack may be bald and tatted but I like that almost as much as the catsuit. It's all in the writing I guess.

Hopefully both will make an impactful comeback in Mass Effect 3. 

[Goat_Shepard]

JakeMacDon wrote...
Not at all, those are things - along with the long flowing tresses - that would make the Jackolytes gnash and froth.

Physical appearance, yes, it's similar. Jack forgiving Cerberus however, is not the same as revealing what Tali looks like. She finds out the facility went rogue, but she still ends up demanding an apology from Miranda, and she hates TIM.

IMO, Jack and Samara could conceivably fight each other to a standstill.  But - nothing beats experience in an one-on-one.  A smart, calm fighter will beat a more powerful angry fighter every time.  As much as I love Jack, until she learns actual combat discipline, she's gonna lose, especially against Samara.  It'd be like a boxer fighting a Drunken Master.

Brains always beats brawn.

That vid was great, btw

Modifié par Goat_Shepard, 05 mai 2011 - 02:19 .

[lolwut666]

@JakeMacDon

I can see where you're coming from, but it's hard to care about someone who doesn't give you any reason to.

Jack has done a lot of bad things in her life, as did Miranda, but Jack's suffering is paupable. She has a past of torture and abuse, and it reflects on her appearance and mannerisms.

Miranda, on the other hand, had none of that. She had everything growing up, and the reason she joined Cerberus is because she wanted to get back at her father, nothing else. Just look at her current situation: she works for a rich, unescrupulous man who sees everything - Miranda included - as an expendable asset. Her father was also a rich, unescrupulous man who saw her as nothing more than an asset. Miranda was comfortable before; the only thing she didn't like about that life is that she didn't get to choose the rich guy.

And then there's the way she acts and views thing, and her impecable appearance that does not suggests she ever suffered any kind of hardship.

She may be even more troubled than Jack, as you say, but it's hard to feel like helping her. She inspires absolutely no sympathy.

Modifié par lolwut666, 05 mai 2011 - 02:31 .

[Goat_Shepard]

^^very good points.

yorkj86 wrote...

EDIT: What the, the picture went away.  Okay.

Anyway, I never full trusted Miranda, either. Doesn't mean I dislike her character.

lol here's what I pulled.

[naledgeborn]

If you're trying to see Miranda as a sympathetic figure you're looking at her wrong. She feels she has to act perfect because that's what she was engineered for. She's strong because she has to be, much like Jack. Unlike Jack who was tortured and used her gifts as a method of survival it was handed to her which is just as much as a "mind f***". As of ME2 Miranda feels she'll never be "good enough" despite her prodigious accomplishments.

It's not that hard to see that they're on the opposite sides of the same spectrum.

And I'm stopping now before I generate more Miri hate. Just trying to see where people get the "shallow" bs from. The "catsuit" excuse isn't enough when her character clearly shows otherwise.

[Labrev]

naledgeborn wrote...

Question: Why do Jack fans in general hate Miranda?.... other than the Cerberus connection and/or her attire. I like both, granted I like Miranda more but their rivalry doesn't stop me from liking Jack....at all.

When I first started playing I thought I was going to love Miranda and hate Jack. Then I talked to them.

What she said about Jack was pretty tacky, but my issues with her begin even before that whole scene. I'm just not a fan of the person that Miranda clearly is. She has a naiive view of Cerberus, thinks she can trust people from 10-second conversations (and doesn't trust you at first!), not interesting in the least, no sense of humor, no charisma.

I mean look at her: she's Shepard's second-in-command, and she can't even earn half the team's respect (she's opposed by someone immediately when she volunteers to lead the 1st fire-team because "half of us don't even trust her")

I just dislike everything that makes her who she is. Weird though, for some reason I kinda look forward to seeing her again in ME3. Don't know why.

[Goat_Shepard]

I generally don't like characters who use their perfection as a crutch. Edward Cullen comes to mind. From an in-game standpoint, it just comes off as whiny, especially when Jack complains equally or less, and who's complaints are considerably more justified. I think it's ridiculous that Miranda b!tches about her problems, only to then berate Jack for her problems.

I, too, am looking forward to seeing her in ME3. Her resigning from Cerberus after all those excuses she made for their experiments is something I want to see explained for a reason better than "well, she's gotta be on Team Shepard, brah".

[Errationatus]

Goat_Shepard wrote...

Physical appearance, yes, it's similar. Jack forgiving Cerberus however, is not the same as revealing what Tali looks like. She finds out the facility went rogue, but she still ends up demanding an apology from Miranda, and she hates TIM.

It is, however, on the same level of outrage-engendering were it to happen.  I'm talking scales of outrage, not similarities of outrages.

- Jack sez "Maybe" in picture.

No.  Always.  Brainless can beat smarty if they say... cheat.  I am, of course, presupposing a fair contest.

That vid was great, btw

Serious skills.  You can almost tell generational differences from the martial arts dudes you like - for me, Bruce Lee is the King, with Chan a close second  ...and then tiers of descending crap and lack of charisma from there.

Fvck you, Chuck Norris.  Best day of your life was getting your can handed to you by Bruce.

[Errationatus]

lolwut666 wrote...

I can see where you're coming from, but it's hard to care about someone who doesn't give you any reason to.

SNIP

She may be even more troubled than Jack, as you say, but it's hard to feel like helping her. She inspires absolutely no sympathy.

Indeed.  It is true that Miri is hard to love, once you get the overall picture of her.  She is built, after all, on being shallow.  Appearance, motivations, reasons for doing anything - shallow. 

The relationship with Jacob failed because her reasons for entering it were superficial (as were Jacob's - and that dude is seriously naive - Miri deserves better but my FemShep doesn't?  Keep walking, fella.).  The reasons she persues a relationship with Shepard, if you take her SB dossier into account, are revealed as equally shallow.  He fits her criteria for a successful coupling. Of course, all the other things come into play, control chip, engine room, sudden about-face. 

She's just shallow.  Even through heavy inference, she stays shallow.  ME3 may give her more, but we'll have to wait and see.

Oh - and I didn't say that Miri was "more troubled", I said emotionally stunted, which she definitely is.  Jack has had a hard life and many troubles and tribulations, but she's learned from them.  A scared kid, sure, but she's far more mature and clear-eyed than Mirianda. 

Miranda doesn't get hurt, Miranda gets petulant, frustrated, and her getting dumped is no different in tone coming from her than her convos through the dating services in the SB dossiers.  Compare her rejection to Jack's rejecton and you'll see what I mean.

Modifié par JakeMacDon, 05 mai 2011 - 05:23 .

[lolwut666]

Jack is not "brainless". She doesn't have as much experience as Samara, but she's been in fights to the death since she was a kid, and I'm sure she has a fair share of tricks up her sleeve.

And experience can only get you so far. It's not something that just keeps accumulating indefinitely. If both parties have experienced all there is to experience about a subject, any more experience will be hardly significant.

[royceclemens]

Well, I've warmed up to Miranda considerably in the past couple of months, but what put me off of her initially?

I could forgive the catsuit. I could forgive that she didn't like Jack. I could forgive that she called Jack a "mistake" after a traumatic event, thus jeopardizing the mission by making one of our heaviest hitters a little more unstable. All these things I can cast aside...

But then we get to this dialogue exchange:

SHEPARD: Your experiments cross the line.
MIRANDA: All the time, yes. But I know a certain Spectre who crossed a few lines to defeat Saren and the Geth.

Um... What?

Okay, you fat-assed trouser stain, let's compare the line crossing of Cerberus and my Shepard. Cerberus...

-Is a group founded on espionage and the maddest of mad science with a lack of oversight that would make Upton Sinclair crap his pants.
-Experimented upon and killed innocent children in the name of creating a better soldier.
-Resurrected a long dead insect race and poked and prodded a sentient plant being to create shock troops.
-Abducted Alliance marines and injected thresher maw acid in their veins to... I actually don't know how they thought that was going to work.

Shepard, on the other hand...
-Stole a ship... That's it. And the kicker is, it was my ship. I was stealing it back

Miranda does not--DOES NOT--get to compare Cerberus puppy kicking to the Power of my Awesome. I don't hate Miranda anymore, but back in the day, that was what got to me something terrible.

Modifié par royceclemens, 05 mai 2011 - 06:08 .

[lolwut666]

Yeah.

She argues that it's okay to use husks and creepers, but to make husks and creepers you need organics.

And she said the rachni were released once Cerberus discovered they were sentient, but the truth is that the rachni escaped by themselves.

[Goat_Shepard]

yorkj86 wrote...
Dude, it's cool, it's Shepard, and the ends always justify the means.  <_<

Maybe she also means the nuclear device on Virmire to stop Saren from massing a krogan army? So over the line <_<

lolwut666 wrote...
She argues that it's okay to use husks and creepers, but to make husks and creepers you need organics.

Indeed. She argues that they were already dead. Uhh yeah, after you planted dragon's teeth.

And she said the rachni were released once Cerberus discovered they were sentient, but the truth is that the rachni escaped by themselves.

How could they not know the rachni were sentient before testing on them? They attacked the galaxy with starships that they themselves built! She thinks I'm a moron.

I have a question about Teltin, how "rogue" was it? Doesn't TIM say he ordered the plant shut down before the riots? That means it's Cerberus (not rogue agents) who kidnapped all those children for some unknown repurposing?

Modifié par Goat_Shepard, 05 mai 2011 - 07:08 .

[lolwut666]

@Goat_Shepard

It seems obvious to me that TIM knew full well what was happening in Pragia, and the reason he ordered the Teltin facility to be shut down was because he wasn't getting any results, just like with the Project Overlord.

And TIM definitely ordered Cerberus to capture those children, because it was under TIM's orders that Paul Grayson sabotaged ships full of eezo to drop dust-form element zero over colonies. He would then order his agents to capture the biotic cases and send them to facilities like Teltin. One of the biotics that resulted from this monstrosity was Gillian Grayson. And for every biotic case, there were thousands of cancer victims and birth defects.

Modifié par lolwut666, 05 mai 2011 - 07:46 .

[Goat_Shepard]

But.....it wasn't Cerberus.....not really?

[lolwut666]

Yeah.

Miranda is either dumb or a big fat liar.

[Mondo47]

GodWood wrote...
From what I've seen a lot of Jack fans do dislike Miranda but a lot of Miranda fans dislike Jack moreso.

Whereas a Jack fan will usually call Miranda a stuck-up, catsuit wearing b*tch, a Mirifan will call Jack a ugly, bald, tattooed b*tch and than proceed to have her deliberately killed off during the suicide mission.

At least that's what I've observed.

Yeah, I've seen this too. I went over there many moons ago and said Miranda was a stuck-up little priss and the sheer testosterone howling from the teenagers over there had me pissing in my drawers. With hysterics. Boys! Let them play with their toys in their little crib and to hell with them.

But. And I stress the but here (and indeed the pun is intended). There are quite a few of them over there that are adult enough to see both sides of an argument, see the flaws in their object of adoration (as do we) and are open to a good debate while doing their best to keep the rabid teenage element in line. Don't hang all of the Miridians out to dry based on the actions of the Branch Miridians - they don't all like playing with matches

Though to join in with this current poke holes in Miranda's pretty dumb argument about why Cerberus is comparable to Shepard's previous actions, I really do have to wonder what she meant by Shepard "crossed some lines" - ok Miri, let me look at what I've seen in all my playthroughs of Shep actually doing that might be crossing a few lines:

1) Nuking an enemy cloning facility in an isolated section of a fairly sparcely-populated planet.

Well, is it crossing a line? Sure. Nuclear bombs are bad, mm'kay? There's little if anything that justifies their use. But, it's the future - a nuclear detonation is probably cleaner, and the only collateral would be some local wildlife and any of the resident Mengeles working on said cloning project, which would have given the bad guys a sh*tload of krogan to throw at us. I'd probably say it was the best solution all things given. Probably not crossing a line unless you really feel bad for the giant crabs of Virmire.

2) Stealing a starship.

Well, all I did was cruise out of dock when the clear-signal came though. Dave Anderson crossed a bit more of a line I'd have thought by actually letting Shep walk out of the Citadel. I assume they slapped his wrists a bit for that. Might be crossing a line, but I'd say actions were vindicated in less than 48 hours... and isn't it writ large in The Bible of Good Guys that a "Maverick Action" card gives you 48 hours to play your hunch before you get charged with breaking all the rules and your buddies come to lock you up? That's what they do in the movies/tv shows/whatever. So - potentially crossing a line if you feel bad for Udina's jaw.

3) Hanging up on your superiors. A lot.

Ooooooh! You bad guy you! You hang up on people! Straight to Hell with you, Shepard! Only crossing a line if you're ultra ultra polite and possibly stupid.

4) Not assisting the Destiny Ascension / Assisting the Destiny Ascension

Ok, so you have a choice - hit the giant Doomsday Machine Mecha Cthulhu with everything you've got and bugger the ships already taking fire, or cover the crippled flagship so it can limp away and then potentially hit the DMMC with reduced firepower? Surely the actual choice most military minds would make is the former, not the latter. Sure, there's going to be an increased loss of life, but you don't know for sure how much fire you're going to have to throw at the DMMC to destroy it - surely better to cross fingers for the poor bastards on the Ascension and pour that mag-acc death on Sovereign? And if you go the other way, you potentially save more lives at the cost of a few more warships... some might scratch their heads, but I'm positive that some leaders-of-men would agree with that course of action too. Potentially crossing a line if things had gone badly - but they didn't, so no harm, no foul.

Yeah. Shepard crossed a lot of lines, Miri... keep telling yourself that if it makes you sleep better at night, dearie <_<

Goat_Shepard wrote...

And she said the rachni were released once Cerberus discovered they were sentient, but the truth is that the rachni escaped by themselves.

How could they not know the rachni were sentient before testing on them? They attacked the galaxy with starships that they themselves built! She thinks I'm a moron.

That one always has me giggling like a schoolgirl... Cerberus scientific genii must live very, very sheltered lives. Stepping outside into nature must be bloody terrifying for them. Seriously, if they never read a history book about the rachni war, they need to renounce evil super science for life.

Miranda: (waving her hand around her head) Damn flying ants...

Wilson: (terrified) OH MY GOD! THEY'VE MADE FLYING MACHINES! EVERYONE RUNNN! THEY'LL HAVE DEATH RAYS NEXT!!! THEY'VE EVOLVED!!!



Dumbasses. That argument is worse than pathetic; it just makes no damn sense. She's the moron there... if an argument can be picked apart by a child of ten, it's not worth fielding. Ever.

Goat_Shepard wrote...

I have a question about Teltin, how "rogue" was it? Doesn't TIM say he ordered the plant shut down before the riots? That means it's Cerberus (not rogue agents) who kidnapped all those children for some unknown repurposing?

Said it before, and I'll say it again. TIM is culpable of at the very least procuring children for shady purposes unless he seriously thought he was setting up a Little TIMmy's Urban Achievers program (and if that's the best argument you got, see above). That goes way beyond crossing a f*cking line, it's tripping merrily back into Mengeleland again. Sure, he's trying to defend the species, but for that alone he needs a clip unloading up his ass and then we can all sit around and play Odds and Evens as he bleeds to death in the corner. It's pliers and blowtorch time. Hanging is too good for some people, because some lines you never, ever cross. Unless you're pure evil.

So, there's only one solution to this weak-ass set of arguments - Miranda has been lied to, or she's blissfully compliant with TIM doing bad sh*t to innocents, making her not only f*cking stupid but a "bad person." Considering that she flips TIM off in the end if you choose to blow the base, she's not the latter... and Jacob does say nearly everyone in Cerberus lies and manipulates everyone else...

Miri's not dumb, she's just in the dark. At least that's how I read it.

Modifié par Mondo47, 05 mai 2011 - 08:05 .

[lolwut666]

It's one thing to be in the dark; it's another thing entirely to refuse to acknowledge that you're wrong when there's irrefutable evidence standing right in front you.

I simply can't swallow any justificative for Miranda's behavior.

Whatever her reasons to be like that, she's not worth the time it'd take to fix her.

I'd rather just leave her ignorant self in her office and never look back.

[Confused-Shepard]

Can someone tell me why Miranda seems to lack any sense of human decency?
I mean she ****es out a disabled person for not being a one man army, she calls Jack who is essentially a holocaust victim "A Mistake" and talks to her with much disdain as if she's just some angry teenager. She never seems to give any person a single ounce of respect and during the suicide mission misguides you and goes, "ME! ME! PICK ME!!"

I get it that you are an ice queen but sheesh. Oh boo hoo! I'm infertile! Ya, so was Monica from Friends. Lots of people live with such an horrid and unfortunate condition but are otherwise healthy. On the other hand you have the psychotic holocaust survivor that you hate so much.

I wish you could tell certain squad-dies to leave the ship after the suicide mission

She claims to be perfect but is in fact very much flawed. Maybe that's the point.

EDIT:

You know, you could take all the coldest charecters in fiction and show them the Teltin Facility. They would cry.
Hannibal Lecter & Darth Sidious would be disgusted and think it was a bit much. Hitler would silently nod.
But not our dear sweet perfect Miranda. 

Modifié par Confused-Shepard, 05 mai 2011 - 08:25 .

[Mondo47]

Yeah, but if someone that has been more than a father to you than your own father has says it's not true, do you go with your gut, or do you believe the family you love? You'd have to be seriously paranoid and pragmatic to see it from outside of Miri's little bubble if you were her - even when the lies are covering things you know are massive and potentially dark as midnight skies.

Just think for a minute in reality - how many times have parents or loved ones lied to you and you bought it hook, line and sinker because the lie came from them - be it about Santa Claus or where the goldfish/dog/grandparent went or about what really happened at your sixteenth birthday or...

Being blind to the faults of people you trust is all part of being human - another counterpoint to Miri's perfection. You can't really blame her because you're not as blinkered by feelings as her.

[Goat_Shepard]

Mondo I think I love you.

Oh, uh, right, on topic, ummmm. Jack.



@lolwut666
I tried to like her, I really did. I took her and Jacob on every mission because they're the only Bioware characters I didn't like. No use. I have to follow your closing sentence.