I guess I'm paranoid and pragmatic, then.
Into the Bad Girl: Jack Fans
Débuté par
Average Gatsby
, févr. 05 2010 03:24
Retour en haut
#19277
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 08:31
Goat_Shepard
-
- Members
- 11 117 messages
Zaeed's words at Teltin: "I've seen a lot of bad things in my day, but this..."Confused-Shepard wrote...
You know, you could take all the coldest charecters in fiction and show them the Teltin Facility. They would cry.
Hannibal Lecter & Darth Sidious would be disgusted and think it was a bit much. Hitler would silently nod.
But not our dear sweet perfect Miranda.
#19278
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 08:34
lolwut666
-
- Members
- 1 470 messages
@Mondo47
Also, no one is forced to understand denial.
Denial is a sign of ignorance, and Miranda hasn't given me any reason to bother fixing that part of her (or anything else, for that matter).
You must have the patience of a Buddha to be willing to bother with a seemingly lost case like Miranda.
Also, no one is forced to understand denial.
Denial is a sign of ignorance, and Miranda hasn't given me any reason to bother fixing that part of her (or anything else, for that matter).
You must have the patience of a Buddha to be willing to bother with a seemingly lost case like Miranda.
#19279
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 08:39
Confused-Shepard
-
- Members
- 1 414 messages
What they should have done is piece by piece break Miranda's faith in both Cerberus & The Illusive Man. Instead she just has a heel face turn in the end. She should have had a breakdown after seeing Teltin. In fact, it should have been Jack tauting her while Miranda cry-protested that it couldn't be true and then confronting the Illusive Man about it
Then she sees the Collector Ship trap, Overlord, Reaper IFF etc and the suicide mission would have been the last straw. Her NEW father considers her an expendable asset just like the old one.
She's just "Meh!" Guilt? What's that?
You know we would be in real trouble if terrorist organizations in real life were run by sophisticated business man types like the Illusive Man.
Then she sees the Collector Ship trap, Overlord, Reaper IFF etc and the suicide mission would have been the last straw. Her NEW father considers her an expendable asset just like the old one.
She's just "Meh!" Guilt? What's that?
You know we would be in real trouble if terrorist organizations in real life were run by sophisticated business man types like the Illusive Man.
#19280
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 08:47
axl99
-
- Members
- 1 362 messages
I don't have to like Miranda, but I will have her stick around the ship as long as she makes herself useful. Which really was the whole point of gathering people for the mission. If friendly relationships develop, bonus.
#19281
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 08:48
lolwut666
-
- Members
- 1 470 messages
Miranda knows she is in a position of power in comparison to those Cerberus is willing to sacrifice, so she doesn't bother putting herself in their place because she knows she'll never be in it.
She is selfish to a fault, and doesn't have an ounce of empathy.
That's why something like what you described is very unlikely to happen, Confused-Shepard.
She is selfish to a fault, and doesn't have an ounce of empathy.
That's why something like what you described is very unlikely to happen, Confused-Shepard.
Modifié par lolwut666, 05 mai 2011 - 08:49 .
#19282
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 08:55
Mondo47
-
- Members
- 3 485 messages
lolwut666 wrote...
@Mondo47
Also, no one is forced to understand denial.
Denial is a sign of ignorance, and Miranda hasn't given me any reason to bother fixing that part of her (or anything else, for that matter).
You must have the patience of a Buddha to be willing to bother with a seemingly lost case like Miranda.
I dunno... you're entitled to your opinion by all means, but it seems pretty lofty to expect people to turn illumination on and ignorance off like a lightswitch. People don't in general. And we're all ignorant until we learn otherwise - be it through reading a book, witnessing an event firsthand, listening with open ears, or being willing to see every side of the story despite preconceptions.
I'd say denial is part of the human condition, just like deceit. Find me someone that has never lied (even for noble reasons like sparing another's feelings), or has never wanted to not believe something as being true (right up until the photographs are handed over by the private detective) and I reckon you'd find a pretty lonely person.
I would say though that patience is something a lot of the interactable characters in the game need to engage with completely; seeing Legion or EDI as more than machines, coping with Jack's acting-out or Miranda's blithe acceptance of lies, convincing Garrus an eye for an eye is not always the right path to take, seeing Mordin's reasoning behind the continued use of the genophage, Grunt's blind aggression (unless you're a damn krogan apologist like me
)coping with Joker's terrible jokes... 
#19283
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 09:00
lolwut666
-
- Members
- 1 470 messages
@Mondo47
Miranda and Jacob are the only ones who pushed my patience, though.
The point is that with Garrus, for example, you know he is a good guy, but he is misguided. You can feel it by the way he speaks to you, and what he tells you.
The same could be said for most other characters.
Miranda, on the other hand, has nothing good about her. She doesn't make you want to help her; and if you do help her anyway, it feels like there will be no payoff whatsoever.
Miranda and Jacob are the only ones who pushed my patience, though.
The point is that with Garrus, for example, you know he is a good guy, but he is misguided. You can feel it by the way he speaks to you, and what he tells you.
The same could be said for most other characters.
Miranda, on the other hand, has nothing good about her. She doesn't make you want to help her; and if you do help her anyway, it feels like there will be no payoff whatsoever.
#19284
Posté 05 mai 2011 - 09:32
Mondo47
-
- Members
- 3 485 messages
Man, whooda thunked it - me standing Miranda's corner? 
Ok... I'd say that while I accept that your issues with the character are plausible, I will say that while I thought pretty much the same way to start with I now see there is room for Miranda as much as anyone else to grow. She's been sat in the dark and fed sh*t like a mushroom; haven't we all at some point? I'll give her this, though - if you really need a moment to see something worthwhile in her, it's in her relationship with her sister and with Niket.
Miranda could simply not accept that Niket would sell her out; he was her friend, surely he would have understood why she did what she did. The fact that he didn't because of the way his life experiences had played out was completely outside of her comprehension. She thought a friend would accept her judgements carte-blanche. It demonstrates how stunted she is in this facility, but the fact this betrayal of trust hurts her profoundly suggests this is not some master/servant relationship where she expects his compliance... she just thought her friend would understand her. He asked for nothing of her, she demanded nothing of him, and when nothing was what she wound up with in the end, she reacts like a human as opposed to a cold, aloof, clinical chessmaster.
In her relationship with her sister (if you can call it one) you can successfully argue that her actions are not entirely altruistic - stealing Oriana can be read as Niket did as an attempt to spite her father. But the fact that Miranda attempts to deny herself the chance to reach out to her sister in order not to complicate the life she has constructed for herself with her adopted family is certainly a noble action. She doesn't want to walk in there and go "Oh, hi - I'm your sister. I stole you from a wealthy megalomaniac so you could have a normal life outside of his adgenda. Take care - be lucky!" It cements her belief that what she did was for someone else's benefit and she is willing to sacrifice her own potential development as a person with family and ties in order to defend that normality. Oriana could have gone off and never known any of what had happened in the spaceport, or that she has someone looking out for her from afar; Miri has to be convinced her own feelings are worthwhile. After all, it's hard to feel if you let yourself freeze over to stay safe and blind to the rest of the world.
Miranda's talk about "knowing her place" in the machine has dehumanised her... after all, the little cog doesn't ask the rest of the watch what it's doing. She was made to be great, but craves being pigeonholed in something bigger: a great big, anonymous, risk-free family. Where, ironically, she attains the kind of businesslike greatness her father almost certainly would have desired for her. She escaped to just become what she was escaping all over again... but that little glimmer of humanity is there. Much like Jack has a glimmer of humanity under all the dirt - the fact she desires acceptance and ties despite all the cussing and puffing out of her chest and I-don't-want-anyone attitude. Both women have a little fragile tender bit; one is hidden under ice, the other behind a wall of fire. It's still there though, if you look for it.
I'm not trying to forgive Miranda's actions, just understand them. It's my nature to want to see the good in all people, to trust (at least until burned). I have learned to look at Miranda with a little more generosity than before.
As for Jacob... can't really help him. He's just a regular guy, not much to him. I will say this though, he's one of the few characters in the game to ask Shep about her own feelings (won't do it with a MaleShep, mind you - he's too much of a GUY for that... stick to brofists and spillin' drinks - still the universal for male bonding the galaxy over ). He needed a little more depth to make him a complete character in the realm of game content. Guess there's only enough time for putting so much stuff in the jar.
Ok... I'd say that while I accept that your issues with the character are plausible, I will say that while I thought pretty much the same way to start with I now see there is room for Miranda as much as anyone else to grow. She's been sat in the dark and fed sh*t like a mushroom; haven't we all at some point? I'll give her this, though - if you really need a moment to see something worthwhile in her, it's in her relationship with her sister and with Niket.
Miranda could simply not accept that Niket would sell her out; he was her friend, surely he would have understood why she did what she did. The fact that he didn't because of the way his life experiences had played out was completely outside of her comprehension. She thought a friend would accept her judgements carte-blanche. It demonstrates how stunted she is in this facility, but the fact this betrayal of trust hurts her profoundly suggests this is not some master/servant relationship where she expects his compliance... she just thought her friend would understand her. He asked for nothing of her, she demanded nothing of him, and when nothing was what she wound up with in the end, she reacts like a human as opposed to a cold, aloof, clinical chessmaster.
In her relationship with her sister (if you can call it one) you can successfully argue that her actions are not entirely altruistic - stealing Oriana can be read as Niket did as an attempt to spite her father. But the fact that Miranda attempts to deny herself the chance to reach out to her sister in order not to complicate the life she has constructed for herself with her adopted family is certainly a noble action. She doesn't want to walk in there and go "Oh, hi - I'm your sister. I stole you from a wealthy megalomaniac so you could have a normal life outside of his adgenda. Take care - be lucky!" It cements her belief that what she did was for someone else's benefit and she is willing to sacrifice her own potential development as a person with family and ties in order to defend that normality. Oriana could have gone off and never known any of what had happened in the spaceport, or that she has someone looking out for her from afar; Miri has to be convinced her own feelings are worthwhile. After all, it's hard to feel if you let yourself freeze over to stay safe and blind to the rest of the world.
Miranda's talk about "knowing her place" in the machine has dehumanised her... after all, the little cog doesn't ask the rest of the watch what it's doing. She was made to be great, but craves being pigeonholed in something bigger: a great big, anonymous, risk-free family. Where, ironically, she attains the kind of businesslike greatness her father almost certainly would have desired for her. She escaped to just become what she was escaping all over again... but that little glimmer of humanity is there. Much like Jack has a glimmer of humanity under all the dirt - the fact she desires acceptance and ties despite all the cussing and puffing out of her chest and I-don't-want-anyone attitude. Both women have a little fragile tender bit; one is hidden under ice, the other behind a wall of fire. It's still there though, if you look for it.
I'm not trying to forgive Miranda's actions, just understand them. It's my nature to want to see the good in all people, to trust (at least until burned). I have learned to look at Miranda with a little more generosity than before.
As for Jacob... can't really help him. He's just a regular guy, not much to him. I will say this though, he's one of the few characters in the game to ask Shep about her own feelings (won't do it with a MaleShep, mind you - he's too much of a GUY for that... stick to brofists and spillin' drinks - still the universal for male bonding the galaxy over
). He needed a little more depth to make him a complete character in the realm of game content. Guess there's only enough time for putting so much stuff in the jar.
Modifié par Mondo47, 05 mai 2011 - 11:26 .
#19285
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 01:26
Niddy'
-
- Members
- 696 messages
lolwut666 wrote...
@Mondo47
Miranda and Jacob are the only ones who pushed my patience, though.
The point is that with Garrus, for example, you know he is a good guy, but he is misguided. You can feel it by the way he speaks to you, and what he tells you.
The same could be said for most other characters.
Miranda, on the other hand, has nothing good about her. She doesn't make you want to help her; and if you do help her anyway, it feels like there will be no payoff whatsoever.
Miranda had no real character development beyond her being genetically modified and the issue with her sister/father; even if you romanced her you didn't learn anything new about her in the ways you learn the history or feel of the character compared to a really developed character like Jack. For instance, the more you talk to Jack the more you understand why she pushes people away and why she acts the way she does.
Miranda also has no identity beyond being a Cerberus lapdog. You only get a differing view if you take her along for the final mission; if you already dislike the character, chances are you won't see that exchange between her and TIM. Her character never changes from start to finish. You can see progression in story in others like when you start romancing jack or doing Garrus' loyalty mission. She only briefly changes when/if you force her to talk to her sister, after than there is no more progession and reverts back to her previous persona.
As for Jacob, he's a black Kaidan; Boring.
Modifié par Niddy', 06 mai 2011 - 01:31 .
#19286
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 02:54
naledgeborn
-
- Members
- 3 964 messages
Mondo47 wrote...
Man, whooda thunked it - me standing Miranda's corner?
Ok... I'd say that while I accept that your issues with the character are plausible, I will say that while I thought pretty much the same way to start with I now see there is room for Miranda as much as anyone else to grow. She's been sat in the dark and fed sh*t like a mushroom; haven't we all at some point? I'll give her this, though - if you really need a moment to see something worthwhile in her, it's in her relationship with her sister and with Niket.
Miranda could simply not accept that Niket would sell her out; he was her friend, surely he would have understood why she did what she did. The fact that he didn't because of the way his life experiences had played out was completely outside of her comprehension. She thought a friend would accept her judgements carte-blanche. It demonstrates how stunted she is in this facility, but the fact this betrayal of trust hurts her profoundly suggests this is not some master/servant relationship where she expects his compliance... she just thought her friend would understand her. He asked for nothing of her, she demanded nothing of him, and when nothing was what she wound up with in the end, she reacts like a human as opposed to a cold, aloof, clinical chessmaster.
In her relationship with her sister (if you can call it one) you can successfully argue that her actions are not entirely altruistic - stealing Oriana can be read as Niket did as an attempt to spite her father. But the fact that Miranda attempts to deny herself the chance to reach out to her sister in order not to complicate the life she has constructed for herself with her adopted family is certainly a noble action. She doesn't want to walk in there and go "Oh, hi - I'm your sister. I stole you from a wealthy megalomaniac so you could have a normal life outside of his adgenda. Take care - be lucky!" It cements her belief that what she did was for someone else's benefit and she is willing to sacrifice her own potential development as a person with family and ties in order to defend that normality. Oriana could have gone off and never known any of what had happened in the spaceport, or that she has someone looking out for her from afar; Miri has to be convinced her own feelings are worthwhile. After all, it's hard to feel if you let yourself freeze over to stay safe and blind to the rest of the world.
Miranda's talk about "knowing her place" in the machine has dehumanised her... after all, the little cog doesn't ask the rest of the watch what it's doing. She was made to be great, but craves being pigeonholed in something bigger: a great big, anonymous, risk-free family. Where, ironically, she attains the kind of businesslike greatness her father almost certainly would have desired for her. She escaped to just become what she was escaping all over again... but that little glimmer of humanity is there. Much like Jack has a glimmer of humanity under all the dirt - the fact she desires acceptance and ties despite all the cussing and puffing out of her chest and I-don't-want-anyone attitude. Both women have a little fragile tender bit; one is hidden under ice, the other behind a wall of fire. It's still there though, if you look for it.
I'm not trying to forgive Miranda's actions, just understand them. It's my nature to want to see the good in all people, to trust (at least until burned). I have learned to look at Miranda with a little more generosity than before.
As for Jacob... can't really help him. He's just a regular guy, not much to him. I will say this though, he's one of the few characters in the game to ask Shep about her own feelings (won't do it with a MaleShep, mind you - he's too much of a GUY for that... stick to brofists and spillin' drinks - still the universal for male bonding the galaxy over
Thank you for that. Even if I had tried I don't think I couldv'e expressed myself as well you have sir.
#19287
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 03:22
Errationatus
-
- Members
- 1 389 messages
naledgeborn wrote...
Thank you for that. Even if I had tried I don't think I couldv'e expressed myself as well you have sir.
Mondo kicks - and it's ma'am, not sir. Just FYI.
@Mondo:
It's actually the salarians' nuke on Virmire, not Shepard's. He approves the use of it, yeah, but he didn't exactly have piles of alternatives from which to choose.
#19288
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 08:27
centiumcuspis
-
- Members
- 28 messages
Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
Robert Frost
Jack and Miranda. Oddly enough based on this poem Jack is the icy one(She is hardened by hate thus ice) and Miranda is ablaze (Desiring things she could never have. loving family, Independince). So differnt yet the same. no wonder they hate eachother.
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
Robert Frost
Jack and Miranda. Oddly enough based on this poem Jack is the icy one(She is hardened by hate thus ice) and Miranda is ablaze (Desiring things she could never have. loving family, Independince). So differnt yet the same. no wonder they hate eachother.
#19289
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 10:24
Goat_Shepard
-
- Members
- 11 117 messages
Wow, so she cares about one person *slow clap*. She's still a merciless murderer, a terrorist, and a liar. She has my blessings with the Oriana situation, but when she supports destroying lives such as Veetor's, I can't bring myself to sympathize.Mondo47 wrote...
if you really need a moment to see something worthwhile in her, it's in her relationship with her sister and with Niket.
#19290
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 10:28
Confused-Shepard
-
- Members
- 1 414 messages
Goat_Shepard wrote...
Wow, so she cares about one person *slow clap*. She's still a merciless murderer, a terrorist, and a liar. She has my blessings with the Oriana situation, but when she supports destroying lives such as Veetor's, I can't bring myself to sympathize.Mondo47 wrote...
if you really need a moment to see something worthwhile in her, it's in her relationship with her sister and with Niket.
Oh man I forgot about him. I gave him to Cerberus as an experiment (ahahaha) and took Miranda to the flotilla. Holy **** she's a mean ****. Veetor's completey off his rocker, calls me a husk/collector (I was even wearing the collector armor *trollface*) and screams GET AWAY!! GET AWAYY! as if I'm the devil incarnate. Miranda doesn't even flinch and tries to justify what they did, "We stuck him with needles SO THAT HE WOULD STOP SCREAMING"
Good lord this woman must eat babies.
#19291
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 10:36
Goat_Shepard
-
- Members
- 11 117 messages
[profanity removed]
Modifié par Stanley Woo, 06 mai 2011 - 04:33 .
#19292
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 10:39
Confused-Shepard
-
- Members
- 1 414 messages
Goat_Shepard wrote...
Confused-Shepard wrote...
Oh man I forgot about him. I gave him to Cerberus as an experiment (ahahaha) and took Miranda to the flotilla. Holy **** she's a mean ****. Veetor's completey off his rocker, calls me a husk/collector (I was even wearing the collector armor *trollface*) and screams GET AWAY!! GET AWAYY! as if I'm the devil incarnate. Miranda doesn't even flinch and tries to justify what they did, "We stuck him with needles SO THAT HE WOULD STOP SCREAMING"
This is 100% accurate. Take Miranda to the flotilla after giving Veetor to Cerberus. Try it. You will be shocked.
Veetor cries about needles and Miranda claims "It was a necessary precaution"
Modifié par Confused-Shepard, 06 mai 2011 - 10:41 .
#19293
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 10:43
Goat_Shepard
-
- Members
- 11 117 messages
Dude...no....just...no.Confused-Shepard wrote...
This is 100% accurate. Take Miranda to the flotilla after giving Veetor to Cerberus. Try it. You will be shocked.
Veetor cries about needles and Miranda claims "It was a necessary precaution"
[spam image removed]
Modifié par Stanley Woo, 06 mai 2011 - 04:34 .
#19294
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 10:53
Boobasaurus
-
- Members
- 288 messages
Confused-Shepard wrote...
Goat_Shepard wrote...
Confused-Shepard wrote...
Oh man I forgot about him. I gave him to Cerberus as an experiment (ahahaha) and took Miranda to the flotilla. Holy **** she's a mean ****. Veetor's completey off his rocker, calls me a husk/collector (I was even wearing the collector armor *trollface*) and screams GET AWAY!! GET AWAYY! as if I'm the devil incarnate. Miranda doesn't even flinch and tries to justify what they did, "We stuck him with needles SO THAT HE WOULD STOP SCREAMING"
(pic)
This is 100% accurate. Take Miranda to the flotilla after giving Veetor to Cerberus. Try it. You will be shocked.
Veetor cries about needles and Miranda claims "It was a necessary precaution"
Good god, I am really glad that I never gave him to Cerberus.
#19295
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 10:58
Confused-Shepard
-
- Members
- 1 414 messages
Lehna wrote...
Confused-Shepard wrote...
Goat_Shepard wrote...
Confused-Shepard wrote...
Oh man I forgot about him. I gave him to Cerberus as an experiment (ahahaha) and took Miranda to the flotilla. Holy **** she's a mean ****. Veetor's completey off his rocker, calls me a husk/collector (I was even wearing the collector armor *trollface*) and screams GET AWAY!! GET AWAYY! as if I'm the devil incarnate. Miranda doesn't even flinch and tries to justify what they did, "We stuck him with needles SO THAT HE WOULD STOP SCREAMING"
(pic)
This is 100% accurate. Take Miranda to the flotilla after giving Veetor to Cerberus. Try it. You will be shocked.
Veetor cries about needles and Miranda claims "It was a necessary precaution"
Good god, I am really glad that I never gave him to Cerberus.
Being the Illusive Man's right hand would have meant that everything done to Veetor would have gone through Miranda which means that not only did she allow the torture to take place, considering she could give less of a damn about those Quarians, she probably ORDERED THEM TO.
Cerberus Guy: Mam! That Quarian is screaming again!
Miranda: Ya just drug him. Use the needles. Bye! Have to go emotionally blackmail Shepard using Orianna
#19296
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:03
Goat_Shepard
-
- Members
- 11 117 messages
It's moronic to interrogate Veetor because he's not only traumatized but unstable from the start, so any information you get from him will be useless AT BEST. Miranda knows this.Confused-Shepard wrote...
Being the Illusive Man's right hand would have meant that everything done to Veetor would have gone through Miranda which means that not only did she allow the torture to take place, considering she could give less of a damn about those Quarians, she probably ORDERED THEM TO.Lehna wrote...
Good god, I am really glad that I never gave him to Cerberus.
#19297
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:08
lolwut666
-
- Members
- 1 470 messages
I don't know if Miranda truly cares about Oriana or if she is just "protecting her", as she understands it, for the sake or her ego.
When Miranda left her father, she had money and contacts. She didn't *have* to join Cerberus. She could have asked help from a more respectable source, such as the Alliance. She actually tells Shepard that she joined Cerberus because she wanted to.
Then, when you help her with Oriana, she tells Shepard that she doesn't want that life for Oriana. Now think about... Oriana is just like her. Miranda didn't want to settle for a boring, normal life. Why is she so certain that's what Oriana wants?
It's more about what *she* wants, and she is willing to go on a killing spree to make sure that Oriana has absolutely no other alternatives.
I think it's just a desperate attempt to convince herself that there's some good left in her.
Selfish.
When Miranda left her father, she had money and contacts. She didn't *have* to join Cerberus. She could have asked help from a more respectable source, such as the Alliance. She actually tells Shepard that she joined Cerberus because she wanted to.
Then, when you help her with Oriana, she tells Shepard that she doesn't want that life for Oriana. Now think about... Oriana is just like her. Miranda didn't want to settle for a boring, normal life. Why is she so certain that's what Oriana wants?
It's more about what *she* wants, and she is willing to go on a killing spree to make sure that Oriana has absolutely no other alternatives.
I think it's just a desperate attempt to convince herself that there's some good left in her.
Selfish.
#19298
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:16
Goat_Shepard
-
- Members
- 11 117 messages
I believe Oriana is better off with a family that loves her (I assume they love her) but as for the selfishness you mentioned, I noticed from the conversation after the mission, she says "She has what I wanted her to have."
Anyway, I'd like to spin this towards Jack somehow, but all I have for a decent segway is
Anyway, I'd like to spin this towards Jack somehow, but all I have for a decent segway is
Modifié par Goat_Shepard, 06 mai 2011 - 11:16 .
#19299
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:18
MisterJB
-
- Members
- 15 596 messages
Ok guys, have you perhaps considered that there are people who like both Jack and Miranda and lurk here?
I would prefer if this thread didn't turn into a Miranda vs Jack debate.
I would prefer if this thread didn't turn into a Miranda vs Jack debate.
#19300
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 11:22
lolwut666
-
- Members
- 1 470 messages
MisterJB wrote...
Ok guys, have you perhaps considered that there are people who like both Jack and Miranda and lurk here?
There's no such thing.
