20813 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

There's me.

[Confused-Shepard]

MisterJB wrote...

Ok guys, have you perhaps considered that there are people who like both Jack and Miranda and lurk here?

I would prefer if this thread didn't turn into a Miranda vs Jack debate.

The thing about Miranda and Jack is that...
One is a murderous psychopath criminal with no morals or sense of human sympathy/decency, the other is Jack

[Goat_Shepard]

MisterJB wrote...

Ok guys, have you perhaps considered that there are people who like both Jack and Miranda and lurk here?

"You hear that precious?" lol j/k

I would prefer if this thread didn't turn into a Miranda vs Jack debate.

Debate fuels understanding. If you are not secure in your beliefs then they are ultimately fragile. Do not fear debate, embrace it!

The name-calling usually brings about antagonism, tho, I admit. Just look at Miranda and Jack's multiple confrontations

Modifié par Goat_Shepard, 06 mai 2011 - 11:25 .

[Goat_Shepard]

Confused-Shepard wrote...
The thing about Miranda and Jack is that...
One is a murderous psychopath criminal with no morals or sense of human sympathy/decency, the other is Jack

Good. I can feel your anger! Miranda is defenseless. Take your weapon. Strike her down with all your hatred and your journey to the dark side will be complete!

[Confused-Shepard]

Goat_Shepard wrote...

Confused-Shepard wrote...
The thing about Miranda and Jack is that...
One is a murderous psychopath criminal with no morals or sense of human sympathy/decency, the other is Jack

Good. I can feel your anger! Miranda is defenseless. Take your weapon. Strike her down with all your hatred and your journey to the dark side will be complete!

<INSERT DARK SIDE REVAN QUOTE FROM KOTOR>

[Goat_Shepard]

Confused-Shepard wrote...

Goat_Shepard wrote...
Good. I can feel your anger! Miranda is defenseless. Take your weapon. Strike her down with all your hatred and your journey to the dark side will be complete!

<INSERT DARK SIDE REVAN QUOTE FROM KOTOR>

Mercy, compassion, loyalty. All these things will prevent you from claiming what is rightfully yours. Those who follow the dark side must cast aside these conceits!



Alright I'm done. Maybe. Depends on how merciful Pacifien is.

Modifié par Goat_Shepard, 06 mai 2011 - 11:52 .

[MisterJB]

Alrigth, then, I guess I'll start with this one.

[quote]lolwut666 wrote...
When Miranda left her father, she had money and contacts. She didn't *have* to join Cerberus. She could have asked help from a more respectable source, such as the Alliance. She actually tells Shepard that she joined Cerberus because she wanted to.
[/quote]
First of all, she was a child running away from her abusive father and carrying a baby. What exactly do you think would have happened had she went to the Alliance? You actually think they would stand up to the richest guy in the Galaxy, you think they would have hidden Oriana?
Also, one of Miranda's defining traits is her desire to help humanity. Cerberus does this and is not being halted by bureoucracy.
Lastly, those contacts you mentioned? They were Cerberus and she stole them from her father


[quote]Then, when you help her with Oriana, she tells Shepard that she doesn't want that life for Oriana. Now think about... Oriana is just like her. Miranda didn't want to settle for a boring, normal life. Why is she so certain that's what Oriana wants?
[/quote]
You don't know what Miranda wants just like you don't know what her father wants to his daugthers.
Miranda did not run away because she was bored, she ran aways because her father was an abusive monster who would have done to Oriana what he did to Miranda.


[quote]It's more about what *she* wants, and she is willing to go on a killing spree to make sure that Oriana has absolutely no other alternatives.
[/quote]
This is about giving Oriana alternatives. Mr.Lawson would have tortured and forced Oriana to becomes what he wanted her to be. Now, Oriana has a loving family and the freedom to choose her own path.
[quote]Confused-Shepard wrote...
The thing about Miranda and Jack is that...
One is a murderous psychopath criminal with no morals or sense of human sympathy/decency, the other is Jack
[/quote]
You got the roles confused, actually. Jack was the one who turned to piracy, the psychopath, she is the one who endured a traumatic experiment and now blames everyone else in the world.
See, name calling works both ways. How about you present an argument?
[quote]Confused-Shepard wrote...
I mean she ****es out a disabled person for not being a one man army [/quote]
She was angry, it happens. Actually, that would prove she has decency since she was furious that the Collectors had taken more humans.

[quote] she calls Jack who is essentially a holocaust victim "A Mistake" [/quote]
Probrably because Jack entered her office, demands an admittance of guilty from Miranda as if she had been the one to torture her and accuses Cerberus of doing it when there was evidence that TIM didn't approve of it and then threatened her life.
In the next conversation with Shepard, Miranda can admit that Cerberus was not entirely blameless. Maybe Jack should have asked politely, Mirada was disgusted by what happened in Pragia, just take her with you on the mission.

[quote] and talks to her with much disdain as if she's just some angry teenager.
[/quote]
And Jack treated Miranda as if she was one of the scientist who tortured her.
That's what Jack is. Let's face it, the torture scarred Jack, turned her into a child on a woman's body.
I'm glad to hear she'll be more mature in ME3.

[quote]She never seems to give any person a single ounce of respect [/quote]

She is always civil and polite. But respect has to be earned.

[quote]and during the suicide mission misguides you and goes, "ME! ME! PICK ME!!" [/quote]
No, Miranda suggested she lead the Fire Team because she's the most experienced and capable besides Shepard (fact) and she leads everyone into the other side safely.
The she suggested that any Biotic could handle the Barrier.
She was mistaken but it was an honest mistake. She had no way of knowying just how big the corridor was or how many time they'd have to stop to deal with Collectors and Husks. Had it been a bit smaller, every Biotic would be able to handle it, like she suggested.


[quote] I get it that you are an ice queen but sheesh. Oh boo hoo! I'm infertile! Ya, so was Monica from Friends. Lots of people live with such an horrid and unfortunate condition but are otherwise healthy.
[/quote]

And so is Miranda. Her self esteem issues don't derive from her sterility but rather from the way her father treated and isolated her from the rest of the world and the way she was created.
Arguably, being genetic engineered, preventing her from ever taking even the smallest amount of pride from any of her many achievements is worse than what Jack went through.
Jack suffered but she escaped from Pragia. Miranda will always have been engineered, not born.
And yet, despite all of this, she does not use the gifts that she was given for a selfish purpose, she uses them to help humanity as a whole.

[quote]On the other hand you have the psychotic holocaust survivor that you hate so much.[/quote]

You act as if Jack is not the one who picks fights with Miranda. Miranda never did anything to Jack.

[quote]She claims to be perfect but is in fact very much flawed. Maybe that's the point.
[/quote]
Miranda admitted from day one that she is not perfect and makes mistakes like everyone else.
[quote] Goat_Shepard wrote...
Wow, so she cares about one person *slow clap*
[/quote]
Actually, she cares about the whole humanity, she expresses anger when people under her command die, etc.

[quote] She's still a merciless murderer
[/quote]
No, she isn't. The only person we see her murdering is Wilson and he was a traitor who had killed her staff and would have killed her, Jacob and sell Shepard to the Shadow Broker.

,[quote] a terrorist,
[/quote]

Name one of Miranda's actions that was an act of terrorism.

[quote]and a liar.
[/quote]
Are you even serious? The woman who tells Shepard, her soon to be commanding officer, that she wanted to place a control chip on his brain, a liar?
When did she ever lie to you?

[quote]She has my blessings with the Oriana situation, but when she supports destroying lives such as Veetor's, I can't bring myself to sympathize.
[/quote]
No one destroyed Veetor's life, just like no one destroyed Jack's. It's a matter of being strong enough to get back on your feet.
Besides, entire human colonies were vanishing. Interrogating one person kind of pales in comparison
[quote]Confused-Shepard wrote...

What they should have done is piece by piece break Miranda's faith in both Cerberus & The Illusive Man. [/quote]

And that's exactly what they did. You just have to take her with you on missions and hear what she has to say.
Granted, it was not as obvious as it could have been but it's still there.
[quote]Confused-Shepard wrote...

Being the Illusive Man's right hand would have meant that everything done to Veetor would have gone through Miranda which means that not only did she allow the torture to take place, considering she could give less of a damn about those Quarians, she probably ORDERED THEM TO.

Cerberus Guy: Mam! That Quarian is screaming again!
Miranda: Ya just drug him. Use the needles. Bye! Have to go emotionally blackmail Shepard using Orianna

[/quote]

Now you are just being ridiculous. First, Miranda is not TIM's rigth hand. Second, all Cerberus Cells act on their own and the people from the other cells don't know what the other is doing.
Yes, Miranda knew what was being done to Veetor but they were not torturing him. Veetor was traumatized and among people he didn't know, the drugs were meant to actually calm him enough to answer questions. They were not gentle but it was an extreme situation, thousands of humans were disappearing each day. In normal situations, it would not be something Miranda would approve of.

So, her sister was about to be kidnapped but you call that emotionally blackmailing? I guess Thane was also emotionally blackmailing Shepard by asking his help to prevent his son becoming a murderer. Or Mordin, who tought his student was being tortured.
If anyone was blackmailing Shepard that person had to be Jack. Her problem was fixed; no one from Teltin was after her. She just wasn't strong enough to move on and let the past be past.

[Batlass8]

Nyoka wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

There's me.

You're not alone.

There are more of us than you think!!

However, I bring my post back to Jack.

If you could give Jack a powers makeover in ME3, what powers would you give her?

I like shockwave for Jack, it fits her personality and the style of combat I imagine she has.  Pull, not so much.  I'd swap that out for Throw.  I mean, c'mon!  Do you think Jack would just toss people into the air so other people could shoot at them, or would she slam them into a wall or something to crack their necks?  Also, instead of Warp Ammo (since ammo=/=a power Bioware, c'mon), I'd give her Charge or something similar.  And of course, her class-specific power.

What does everyone else think?

[Batlass8]

yorkj86 wrote...

Man, these romance-related ME3 spoilers would provide us with a pretty great topic for Jack-related discussion, but...they're spoilers.

I'm trying to stay spoiler-free, but is there a way to change the font color (or you could make the font really small) so that people could talk about these things if they wanted?  People should be able to talk about these things if they want to... as long as they mark them SPOILER first, lol!

[lolwut666]

@MisterJB

Miranda's father wasn't a "crazy abuser". In fact, Miranda *herself* said that her father gave her everything she wanted. Granted, she lived a sheltered life, but the point is that she was spoiled rotten and she wanted even *more*.

And Miranda had never thought about helping humanity until she joined Cerberus. She said herself that it was only after she joined Cerberus that she found a purpose.

And she was not as young as you think when she ran away from her father. She was either in her late teens or early twenties. I'll grant that she could have sought Cerberus simply out of desperation, though.

As for you comment about Veetor:

It seems like you're just like Miranda. There's only so much a person can endure before they're beyond recovery. You wouldn't know, nor would Miranda, because you've never been through that. Veetor was unstable before Cerberus tortured him, and Jack withstood a lot more abuse than most people could have before dying or committing suicide. You lack empathy.

You advocate in favor of "the ends justify the means". I think that's absolutely horrible, but I'll respect your opinion. I also know that there's no point arguing further.

[MisterJB]

lolwut666 wrote...

@MisterJB

Miranda's father wasn't a "crazy abuser". In fact, Miranda *herself* said that her father gave her everything she wanted. Granted, she lived a sheltered life, but the point is that she was spoiled rotten and she wanted even *more*.

A lot of people assume that a household where a child isn't being physically beaten or sexually abused isn't an abusive household.  This is absolutely not true.  I think it's safe to say that Miranda's father was (at the least, given what we know), emotionally abusive.  With her intelligence, Miranda would be acutely aware that the household she was growing up in wasn't normal.  In two-parent homes where one parent is abusive, the other parent often will direct the abusers anger/attention towards themselves in order to protect the children.  Miranda had no protector.

Her father gave her anything material she wanted. However, she was pushed to meet impossible demands one after another, she was never granted a reprieve, her father prohibited from having friends and we can't even imagine what she must have went through in order to develop her biotic powers.
Miranda was tortured and abused by her father, no way around that.

And she was not as young as you think when she ran away from her father. She was either in her late teens or early twenties.

Miranda is 35, Oriana is 19. She was had to be with Cerberus at 16 and if she didn't take Oriana with her the first time she escaped, then she had to be 14-15.

There's only so much a person can endure before they're beyond recovery.

Miranda proves otherwise.

You wouldn't know, nor would Miranda, because you've never been through that.

Miranda has been through that. Or do you think Mr.Lawson gave her candy to help her develop her biotic powers?
Or the demands he made of her were to add 1+1?

Veetor was unstable before Cerberus tortured him,

 Veetor was unstable yes but he was not tortured. He was given a few drugs to help him keep focus and answer a few questions. No torture there and he was returned unharmed.

and Jack withstood a lot more abuse than most people could have before dying or committing suicide.

Yes, but I can't respect Jack when she uses what Teltin did to her to justify her crimes.
What happened to her was horrible, inexcusable. But then she went and became a criminal herself.

You lack empathy.

You advocate in favor of "the ends justify the means" 

I do not. I'm Paragon and just like Miranda, I can't stomach the tought of using the Collector base and I was happy when I found my crew alive.
However, you people have blown this out of proportions. Veetor was not tortured. Granted, Cerberus wasn't gentle with him but hundreds of thousands of people had already been kidnapped.

Modifié par MisterJB, 06 mai 2011 - 02:11 .

[zewuok]

[spam image removed]

@york
Charge would be great for Jack, but it should activate some kind of barrier at the same time, otherwise she would be in quite a trouble.
I'm all for biotic Falcon Punch the first time I read about it here

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 06 mai 2011 - 04:36 .

[lolwut666]

@MisterJB

"A lot of people assume that a household where a child isn't being physically beaten or sexually abused isn't an abusive household. This is absolutely not true. I think it's safe to say that Miranda's father was (at the least, given what we know), emotionally abusive. With her intelligence, Miranda would be acutely aware that the household she was growing up in wasn't normal. In two-parent homes where one parent is abusive, the other parent often will direct the abusers anger/attention towards themselves in order to protect the children. Miranda had no protector.

Her father gave her anything material she wanted. However, she was pushed to meet impossible demands one after another, she was never granted a reprieve, her father prohibited from having friends and we can't even imagine what she must have went through in order to develop her biotic powers.
Miranda was tortured and abused by her father, no way around that."

Emotional abuse doesn't beat physical *and* emotional abuse. And there were good aspects about her life, like being rich and perfect. And training is not torture. Many biotics are happy with their life. Her father spent too much on her to risk pushing her beyond her limits. It must have been hard, but nothing like what Jack went through in Teltin.

"Miranda proves otherwise."

She doesn't prove anything, because the good things that happened in Miranda's life outweight the bad things. The likelihood of her recovering is far higher than Jack's, for example. You're trying to aggravate her situation for the sake of defending her.

"Veetor was unstable yes but he was not tortured. He was given a few drugs to help him keep focus and answer a few questions. No torture there and he was returned unharmed."

Weather it was intended torture or not, it felt like torture to Veetor, and that's what matters. What he knew was in his omni-tool, and he was a wounded and unstable quarian. Bringing him in would have little additional benefit, but Miranda insisted that you did anyway.

"Yes, but I can't respect Jack when she uses what Teltin did to her to justify her crimes.
What happened to her was horrible, inexcusable. But then she went and became a criminal herself."

I never said Jack is innocent. And if you're gonna speak that way about her, I urge you not to forget that Miranda is a criminal herself, being part of a terrorist organization that is responsible for crimes far more heinous than anything Jack ever committed.

[Labrev]

MisterJB wrote...

Veetor was unstable before Cerberus tortured him,

 Veetor was unstable yes but he was not tortured. He was given a few drugs to help him keep focus and answer a few questions. No torture there and he was returned unharmed.

He came back malnourished and said we was left in uncomfortable temperatures. I'd say that fits the definition of torture. Returned unharmed? You've got to be kidding me. See him on the flotilla when you don't send him to Cerberus (after he gets the actual treatment that he needs), and compare that to when you do, and tell me that he doesn't look much worse if you give him to Cerberus.

No wonder you like Cerberus cheerleader, you believe the exact same fantasies. <_<

[MisterJB]

lolwut666 wrote...

Emotional abuse doesn't beat physical *and* emotional abuse.

I'm not arguing about who suffered the most. You spoke as if Miranda's childhood had been rainbows and puppies and she only left because she was bored, which is completely untrue.
 

And there were good aspects about her life, like being rich and perfect.

Miranda absolutely hates being perfect, it's something that has followed her entire life.
And if you are going that way, I can say that there good aspects about Jack's life, like being the most powerful biotic ever.
 

And training is not torture.

Then Jack was not tortured.
And you are ignoring the meeting impossible demands, one after another, part.
 

Her father spent too much on her to risk pushing her beyond her limits. It must have been hard, but nothing like what Jack went through in Teltin.

Must I remind you that the scientists on Teltin were inflicting the most horrific experiments on the other children so that they wouldn't risk pushing Jack beyond her limits?
So, knowying that and not knowying what Mr.Lawson made Miranda go through, how can you claim that Jack had it worse?

"Miranda proves otherwise."

She doesn't prove anything, because the good things that happened in Miranda's life outweight the bad things. 

Miranda had one good thing about her childood, money. Everything else was about as bad as Jack and possibly even worse.

Weather it was intended torture or not, it felt like torture to Veetor, and that's what matters.

So, because Veetor is a fragile flower we should forget that he is a witness? Do you have any idea how many crimes would go unsolved that way?
Veetor was not tortured.
 

What he knew was in his omni-tool, and he was a wounded and unstable quarian. Bringing him in would have little additional benefit, but Miranda insisted that you did anyway.

Miranda didn't insist, she suggested. Then, Miranda was not sure at the time if the Quarian were indeed going to fowards Veetor's omni-tool to Cerberus, since there's bad blood between the two groups.
Tali didn't give Veetor's omni-tool, it's data was fowarded from the Flotilla. What if the Quarians went back on their
word?

I never said Jack is innocent. And if you're gonna speak that way about her, I urge you not to forget that Miranda is a criminal herself, being part of a terrorist organization that is responsible for crimes far more heinous than anything Jack ever committed.

Miranda did not commit those crimes herself now, did she? She joined Cerberus out of desperation and to help humanity and if you talk to her, it becomes obvious that she trusted TIM and was largely unware of Cerberus's darkest side.
Yes, Miranda is a criminal, so is Shepard. But they have good reasons.
Or do you want to lay the blame of everything Cerberus did at Miranda's feet?

Also, maybe we should take this to the Miranda fan thread.

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

He came back malnourished and said we was left in uncomfortable temperatures. I'd say that fits the definition of torture. Returned unharmed? You've got to be kidding me. See him on the flotilla when you don't send him to Cerberus (after he gets the actual treatment that he needs), and compare that to when you do, and tell me that he doesn't look much worse if you give him to Cerberus.

No wonder you like Cerberus cheerleader, you believe the exact same fantasies.

Because Veetor is unstable and fragile and when he saw himself surrounded by people he didn't know in a place that was strange to him, obviously it's not going to be good for his health. That doesn't mean he was tortured.
It's not that he was denied food, he just couldn't eat because of how afraid he was.

Fantasies, eh? And just what fantasies are those? That the good of the many must come before the good of the one?

Modifié par MisterJB, 06 mai 2011 - 02:47 .

[Razorsedge820]

@MisterJB

You know what your doing right now makes no sense right? Your defending MIRANDA in the JACK fan thread, that's like going to an animal rights rally wearing a fur coat and gator boots while being drenched with baby seal blood. Your fighting a losing battle man, just give up and go back to your own thread where you can talk about your Cerberus bitc...I mean your favorite character.

Now Jackolytes let's get Jacked up again.

Modifié par Razorsedge820, 06 mai 2011 - 03:08 .

[goofyomnivore]

Not gonna jump in the middle of the fray, but I don't think Veetor was tortured. The guy was already skiddish(Tali and others confirm that). Having him brought to a Cerberus base was probably traumatic enough to unlatch a few screws considering Quarian and Cerberus relations.

I wouldn't believe either party fully on what happened during his interrogation. Both are at an extreme opposite of each other. I never let them interrogate him though, simply because I don't see the point, we have a video of what we want to know. Interrogating him isn't going to do much, not like the caught the license plate # on the back of the collector ship or anything LOL.


Back to Jack though:

I think Charge would be tricky to work, unless it was kind of like Kasumi's cloak where she cloaks attacks and comes back to her original point. So I guess a double charge for Jack? Maybe give her heavy charge(mini shockwave). Where she can stagger stuff and then come back? Or possibly shatter frozen things or knock things in "health" off ledges/send em airborne.

I think a "pull" then "punch/throw" move for Jack would be cool. Put it on a cooldown similar to Kasumi's cloak and give it similar damage.

I hated how weak she is on Insanity. She is the most powerful human biotic and she got very underwhelming powers IMO. Warp Ammo is powerful and all, but I think she should of had a cooler bonus power. Warp Ammo is just to "passive" for Jack LOL.

Modifié par strive, 06 mai 2011 - 03:06 .

[MisterJB]

Razorsedge820 wrote...

@MisterJB

You know what your doing right now makes no sense right? Your defending MIRANDA in the JACK fan thread, that's like going to an animal rights rally wearing a fur coat and gator boots while being drenched with baby seal blood.

A person who pleads for animal rights while wearing a fur coat is an hypocrite. However, one can like both Miranda and Jack, no? 

[Razorsedge820]

strive wrote...

I hated how weak she is on Insanity. She is the most powerful human biotic and she got very underwhelming powers IMO. Warp Ammo is powerful and all, but I think she should of had a cooler bonus power. Warp Ammo is just to "passive" for Jack LOL.

I agree, warp ammo does not fit Jack at all. I think she should have had the Slam bonus power since it fits her character better IMO. Besides shockwave I think Jack should be given a power overhaul in ME3.

[lolwut666]

Slam'd make her worse. And, from a cinematic perspective, she can use her Pull to mimic Slam, anyway.

Jack is supposed to be a Vanguard, so a power that suplements her gunplay suits her character, IMO. Plus Warp Ammo is supposed to be a very advanced biotic power. Only the most powerful human biotic could master it.

And Jack isn't a bad character. If you have Overload/Incinerate to take down enemies defenses, she can be very useful. No other party member is better at knocking enemies off ledges than she is, because Throw only pushes enemies backwards when cast by the AI, while Shockwave sends them flying all over the place. Pull is always useful.

And her Biotic Damage bonus affects her ammo power, so she can actually deal a lot of damage with her guns.