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Are these complaints coming from hardcore RPG-fans?


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#51
gotthammer

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What constitutes a 'hardcore RPG fan' anyway? I'm an RPG player (pen-and-paper, CRPGs, MMOs, even played on a MUD or two) and I don't have much complaints about ME2. (ok, maybe the spacebar doing all those tricks is one...but one adapts, yes?)



IMHO, the combat system is OK (not great, but ok): the ammo thing is a tad bit annoying (considering the fluff from the first game, I actually thought the argument/counter-fluff was a bit forced), but I've never really run out of ammo (which is kinda weird lol. I love me my LMG).

The 'lack' of customization compared to ME1...yeah, could have been handled better, but no biggie.

Story? Story was quite good and the characters were, for the most part, rather well-written (Mordin and Thane, in particular). I just kinda wish the universe was 'fleshed out' a bit more (I still want to land on Earth... :D ).

@ the ever persistent 'is ME/ME2 an RPG' question: IMHO, it is. Again, does it matter what you category/pigeon-hole you put it into? :D

#52
theeyeisblind

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jtd00123 wrote...

another gripe was how the romances seemed "forced" rather than actual romances. lol its as if they were a homework assignment to the characters where the payoff is getting laid rather than appreciating the person.



Way off on that one buddy. They are much more developed this time, minus Miranda's, Kelly's and Jacob's. (that is the only way you could have came to that conclusion, and in that case you should change your plural  in "characters" to  singular)  Honestly, in comparison to ME2, ME1 had no build-up when it came to the romance, no chemistry. Thane's romance was probably one of the better I've seen in gaming history.



i wasn't comparing the romancesin ME2 to the last game. i was complaining how they seemed like a homework assignment where the payoff is getting laid (tali, garrus, miranda) or how they just sneak up on you from left field (jack). sure thane's was great and tali's was decent but i would have prefered a bit more buildup than what we got.

there was little to no tension and they seemed more forced than natural. hell with tali you can go from discussing interest to planning sexual relations in just 2 conversations!!!! lol in the span of 35 minutes i had the entire female crew wanting to jump shepards bone! seriously dude thats just a lil too unattached to really feel the attraction

i think that the romances should have required a bit more effort and time than the ones we got, just think DAO where there were certain items and conversations that had to take place before romances ever took off

#53
I Pyrrhus I

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theeyeisblind wrote...

i get your dissapointment with DAO especially since fallout 3 and oblivion hd spoiled me on sandbox and active combat (as opposed to DAO's glorified turn base). and this is coming from a baldurs gate fanatic

anyways for me the soul of ME was stuff like the "virmire decision" and the character driven quests. remember the music on ilos when you are talking to the hologram? that music put me in a different place than the rest of the game did and it was a powerful moment. i REALLY wanted to kill saren for his actions and i loved sticking it to the council (especially the turian). or what about the conclusion of the main UNC quest and the anger at cerberus?

the quests in ME2 are completely soulless and i had very little anticipation for a single damn one of them ( except for the loyalty missions). i really had little derision towards the collectors and i couldn't care less about blood pack mercs. this game felt more like a bullrush through the terminus system rather than any quest to save and improve the universe

another gripe was how the romances seemed "forced" rather than actual romances. lol its as if they were a homework assignment to the characters where the payoff is getting laid rather than appreciating the person.


Fair enough, I'm not all the way through the game yet, but I can see how some of the plot can feel more completion driven than choice driven. For me though, the plot is good, and so is the dialog. The characters seem well hashed out and I already have a clear idea of which ones my character likes and doesn't. That just comes back to opinions though.

I think that like movies, video games also struggle with making a comparable plot for sequals. Its always a difficult act to follow when your original plot is so good, follow-up plots that every fan agrees on probably don't exist unfortunately.

#54
Trogloditius

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I Pyrrhus I wrote...

I don't see any real evidence that EA has dictated the terms of development on this game. Appealing to a broader audience makes perfect sense from business perspective (EA or not). If they had changed nothing, just as many people would complain that it was a copy/paste of the first and EA forced them to do it to save money.


For those who are new to the trilogy, appealing to a broader audience sounds good and reasonable... but Bioware already had (according to the old forums) millions of members before EA bought them, and a strong, loyal fanbase in the habit of buying RPGs.

And check out the old E3 06 videos...





The promise of RPG mechanics, strategy and depth just hasn't come to fruition.  That's why people are annoyed, not because they are "hardcore" or "rpg" fans, but because this trilogy looked so much better than what it has become.  At least they had the guts to talk about the gameplay back then AND give us edgy, tense dialogue.  I'd love to see Casey doing more walkthroughs, though.  Make something special for ME3 so we can have GAMEPLAY trailers next time!  :D<3

#55
theeyeisblind

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gotthammer wrote...

Story? Story was quite good and the characters were, for the most part, rather well-written (Mordin and Thane, in particular). I just kinda wish the universe was 'fleshed out' a bit more (I still want to land on Earth... :D ).
@ the ever persistent 'is ME/ME2 an RPG' question: IMHO, it is. Again, does it matter what you category/pigeon-hole you put it into? :D


this is my main complaint. doing quests in this game is like mining for coal, once you dig it all up you leave forever and go mine somewhere else. in the case if ME2 there is very little diggint to do. the sidequests are soulless and i have very little motivation to see the blood pack/blue suns/ evil bad corp go down, as opposed to ME where you REALLY wanted to make cerberus pay for their actions. i felt nothing for the crashed freighter or the science team that the paranoid AI took out, as opposed to toombs or the marines defending themselves againt rachni

 in ME you had several quests in the citadel that occured at different points in the game and there was much more to do in each world (mainly just the citadel though). in ME2 the locations felt more like a tour than a vacation.

#56
Archdemon Cthulhu

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Trogloditius wrote...

I Pyrrhus I wrote...

I don't see any real evidence that EA has dictated the terms of development on this game. Appealing to a broader audience makes perfect sense from business perspective (EA or not). If they had changed nothing, just as many people would complain that it was a copy/paste of the first and EA forced them to do it to save money.


For those who are new to the trilogy, appealing to a broader audience sounds good and reasonable... but Bioware already had (according to the old forums) millions of members before EA bought them, and a strong, loyal fanbase in the habit of buying RPGs.

And check out the old E3 06 videos...





The promise of RPG mechanics, strategy and depth just hasn't come to fruition.  That's why people are annoyed, not because they are "hardcore" or "rpg" fans, but because this trilogy looked so much better than what it has become.  At least they had the guts to talk about the gameplay back then AND give us edgy, tense dialogue.  I'd love to see Casey doing more walkthroughs, though.  Make something special for ME3 so we can have GAMEPLAY trailers next time!  :D<3


Your kidding, right?  I mean, while I utterly diasagree with nearly every disappointed person's complaint about the game, I respect their opinion.  But this?  This claim that Bioware didn't let everyone know exactly what gameplay was going to be like in Mass Effect 2 ?  Absurd and blatantly false.

Go look at the ME2 E3 vids.  And the vids leading up to the game that they released.  They released SO much about how they changed the gameplay ahead of time, and they were very clear about it as well.  ME2 had gameplay trailers for every class before the game came out.  Seriously, this idea that Bioware somehow sprung the ME2 gameplay with no warning at launch is BEYOND absurd.  The only thing I think might be fair to say is that they didn't release a vid on the inventory system, so I can understand being surprised by that (even though it's still better than ME1, if not the best it could be), but otherwise?  They were broadcasting it all over the gaming sites.

People who expected different core gameplay than what's in ME2 did not do their homework on the game.  Period.  So complain about teh changes all you want, but do not act like there was no gameplay info released.  It's just utterly wrong.

#57
Archilochos

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Are RPG fans complaining? Well, some of the people on here complaining have described themselves as RPG fans.  However, many of those same people have chosen to complain about things like inventory or ammo.  A few have complained about stats and character customization.

As an RPG fan from way back, (I first played the Ultima series in 1986) I find this a little confusing.  Character design simplification is pretty much the only reasonable complaint of the big three (the other two being inventory and ammo), assuming the complaints are based on the idea that "RPG elements" (whatever that means) have been cut.  I've never heard ammo / no ammo discussed as a unique characteristic of RPGs before, and frankly it's an absurd notion.  The only real concerns for me from an RPGer perspective are related to party interaction and conversation (needs more of both!)

I think what's going on is that the "I remember when you had to remember to drink water" gamers are worried that games like ME2 will conquer the market and leave them with nothing to play.  Way back when 3D graphics were just getting started, many, myself included, worried that there would no longer be overhead view tactical party based RPGs of the Planescape Torment / Baldur's Gate variety because "the mainstream" (ie action games) would dominate in the 3D era.  Well, not only did RPGs continue, but eventually there was DAO, proving that party based BG style games could and would still be made in the age of 3D.

The bottom line is this: the various dooms gamers tend to predict for themselves never quite pan out the way they think.  Did I enjoy remembering to drink water in many of those old games?  Yes.  Is ME2 an RPG?  Yes.  Not only that, it's a good one.

#58
Darkehood

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I've been online gaming since back before MMO's even had graphics (because the fastest modem available to connect to the internet was a 14.4 baud dial up modem)



I've been a fan of Bioware since Baldurs Gate.... they just kept producing win after win after win...

They 'were' perhaps the last game developer that I can think of that you could TRUST ...

If you heard about a game.... that Bioware was doing.... without even knowing the title... you knew that A.) that game would be done right... B.) It would be at the top of it's genre or it would invent it's own C.) It would be a game you could only buy on a Friday.... because the rich story, character development and emersion level would suck you in to a point where you better make sure you don't have to work the next day before you even think of playing it....

Bioware WAS also about the only game developer that I can think of in the many years I've been gaming ... who I always thought was 'up there' .... there's always been bad game developers.... average developers.... good developers.... GREAT developers and then Bioware sitting way at top... the fact that ME2 is soooooo lack luster.... sooo full of "wtf were they thinking when they implimented this" moments..... it's very disapointing on many levels....



It's not just another game that didn't deliver on the hype or fell short of expectations.... it's the end of what many people consider a flawless record....



That's the part that sucks.... Mass Effect had the potential to be the RPG gaming equivalent to what the STAR WARS saga was to Sci-fi movies.... and to do that all they had to do was keep a winning formula from ME1 .. make a few simple tweaks .... instead they screwed the pooch.... so I guess in response to the thread title.... maybe the complaints are more from hardcore Bioware RPG fans.... rather then just hardcore RPG fans....



I'm just going to toss in the towel on ME2 ... and try and stay possitive that maybe in the future I can look forward to a Jade Empire 2..... and hopefully they won't screw that up....


#59
Archdemon Cthulhu

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theeyeisblind wrote...

gotthammer wrote...

Story? Story was quite good and the characters were, for the most part, rather well-written (Mordin and Thane, in particular). I just kinda wish the universe was 'fleshed out' a bit more (I still want to land on Earth... :D ).
@ the ever persistent 'is ME/ME2 an RPG' question: IMHO, it is. Again, does it matter what you category/pigeon-hole you put it into? :D


this is my main complaint. doing quests in this game is like mining for coal, once you dig it all up you leave forever and go mine somewhere else. in the case if ME2 there is very little diggint to do. the sidequests are soulless and i have very little motivation to see the blood pack/blue suns/ evil bad corp go down, as opposed to ME where you REALLY wanted to make cerberus pay for their actions. i felt nothing for the crashed freighter or the science team that the paranoid AI took out, as opposed to toombs or the marines defending themselves againt rachni

 in ME you had several quests in the citadel that occured at different points in the game and there was much more to do in each world (mainly just the citadel though). in ME2 the locations felt more like a tour than a vacation.


I got longer gameplay time out of ME2 than ME1, (part of this is because 3/4 of the sidequests in ME1 are really weak and chore-ish) and I had more emotional engagement in ME2 than ME1, so the idea that it's soulless is completely subjective and not a fair generalizing complaint.  The characters were better written this time, and loyalty quests were outstanding.  Your complaint makes no sense.  I had chills up and down my spine during the final parts of the game.  Chills.  As much as I love ME1, that never happened to me there.  Also, you mentioned the Bhatia quest from ME1 earlier, how was that better than the Ilium quest about the Feros colonists?  They were both three conversation sidequests and I thought the ME2 one was much more (to use the cliched term) emotionally engaging.

I'm sorry you couldn't get into the story, but your complaints do not make sense to me.

#60
theeyeisblind

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I Pyrrhus I wrote...

Fair enough, I'm not all the way through the game yet, but I can see how some of the plot can feel more completion driven than choice driven. For me though, the plot is good, and so is the dialog. The characters seem well hashed out and I already have a clear idea of which ones my character likes and doesn't. That just comes back to opinions though.

I think that like movies, video games also struggle with making a comparable plot for sequals. Its always a difficult act to follow when your original plot is so good, follow-up plots that every fan agrees on probably don't exist unfortunately.


yeah i agree with all that, i just think that they could have given us more motivation. they could have done a lot with the eclipse mercs, and they could have given us emotional romances. hell i can't recall a single somber moment in the whole game.

the terminus systems could have been an in-depth adventure rather than a bullrushed tour, in a way it feels like KOTOR2 redux (except without the plotholes)

#61
Darkehood

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Archilochos wrote...

Are RPG fans complaining? Well, some of the people on here complaining have described themselves as RPG fans.  However, many of those same people have chosen to complain about things like inventory or ammo.  A few have complained about stats and character customization.

As an RPG fan from way back, (I first played the Ultima series in 1986) I find this a little confusing.  Character design simplification is pretty much the only reasonable complaint of the big three (the other two being inventory and ammo), assuming the complaints are based on the idea that "RPG elements" (whatever that means) have been cut.  I've never heard ammo / no ammo discussed as a unique characteristic of RPGs before, and frankly it's an absurd notion.  The only real concerns for me from an RPGer perspective are related to party interaction and conversation (needs more of both!)

The bottom line is this: the various dooms gamers tend to predict for themselves never quite pan out the way they think.  Did I enjoy remembering to drink water in many of those old games?  Yes.  Is ME2 an RPG?  Yes.  Not only that, it's a good one.


LoL from the sounds of it, your someone that has been at this as long or maybe even longer then I have... 

For me any good RPG...  Role Playing Game is about a balance of realism.   
It has to offer enough realism that you can immerse yourself in playing your role the way that logically it would be played.  It has to be balanced though so that there isn't tooo much realism to the point of becoming mundane or overly restrictive.    (most have always just accepted the fact that "ok in fact I'm carrying an inventory that would kill a mule, but I rolled an 18 on Str so I'll just play along and accept the fact that I can carry that much in my pack)
 
I'll accept (and still be happy) and enjoy a game even if a lot of other things are missing as long as it has a good balance of realism and fantasy as I just described...   ME1 achieved that near pefect balance.  Some changes in ME2 I like...   ammo for instance...  I think it actually adds to the importance of weapon selection and realism...  but then removing weapon skills to use those weapons... kinda counter acts that balance and just ends up being a "WTF"  

Not being able to change gear without having to deal with 3 loading screens....  (1. to go back to the Normandy, 1 to take the elevator to your cabin, 1 to go back to the port you were at because for some reason as soon as you board the Normandy it departs and your end up in deep space) to me is a really serious WTF moment doesn't add to either the realism or the functionality....    

So when it comes to ME2 being a good RPG....    well....    I'd say no...   it's the opposite.   I'd love to really get into playing my role as Cmd Sheppard but due to so many WTF moments that break the emersion... it's hard to get into and stay in character and play your role...  

Didn't things like that really bother you when you were playing?   I found it very fustrating....  it was like really trying to get into reading a novel ... but having the phone ring every couple of pages.... 

#62
Archdemon Cthulhu

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Darkehood wrote...

Archilochos wrote...

Are RPG fans complaining? Well, some of the people on here complaining have described themselves as RPG fans.  However, many of those same people have chosen to complain about things like inventory or ammo.  A few have complained about stats and character customization.

As an RPG fan from way back, (I first played the Ultima series in 1986) I find this a little confusing.  Character design simplification is pretty much the only reasonable complaint of the big three (the other two being inventory and ammo), assuming the complaints are based on the idea that "RPG elements" (whatever that means) have been cut.  I've never heard ammo / no ammo discussed as a unique characteristic of RPGs before, and frankly it's an absurd notion.  The only real concerns for me from an RPGer perspective are related to party interaction and conversation (needs more of both!)

The bottom line is this: the various dooms gamers tend to predict for themselves never quite pan out the way they think.  Did I enjoy remembering to drink water in many of those old games?  Yes.  Is ME2 an RPG?  Yes.  Not only that, it's a good one.


LoL from the sounds of it, your someone that has been at this as long or maybe even longer then I have... 

For me any good RPG...  Role Playing Game is about a balance of realism.   
It has to offer enough realism that you can immerse yourself in playing your role the way that logically it would be played.  It has to be balanced though so that there isn't tooo much realism to the point of becoming mundane or overly restrictive.    (most have always just accepted the fact that "ok in fact I'm carrying an inventory that would kill a mule, but I rolled an 18 on Str so I'll just play along and accept the fact that I can carry that much in my pack)
 
I'll accept (and still be happy) and enjoy a game even if a lot of other things are missing as long as it has a good balance of realism and fantasy as I just described...   ME1 achieved that near pefect balance.  Some changes in ME2 I like...   ammo for instance...  I think it actually adds to the importance of weapon selection and realism...  but then removing weapon skills to use those weapons... kinda counter acts that balance and just ends up being a "WTF"  

Not being able to change gear without having to deal with 3 loading screens....  (1. to go back to the Normandy, 1 to take the elevator to your cabin, 1 to go back to the port you were at because for some reason as soon as you board the Normandy it departs and your end up in deep space) to me is a really serious WTF moment doesn't add to either the realism or the functionality....    

So when it comes to ME2 being a good RPG....    well....    I'd say no...   it's the opposite.   I'd love to really get into playing my role as Cmd Sheppard but due to so many WTF moments that break the emersion... it's hard to get into and stay in character and play your role...  

Didn't things like that really bother you when you were playing?   I found it very fustrating....  it was like really trying to get into reading a novel ... but having the phone ring every couple of pages.... 


Realistically a soldier could not carry more weapons or armor around than he/she does in ME2.  It would be less realistic to be able to switch them on the fly.

And if loading screens break your immersion, well then I don't even know what to do with that.  Every RPG has loading screens constantly.  Especially Bioware ones.

#63
Adeph

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Is there an unwritten rule somewhere, or even one that's written down, that states: 
"Bioware, thou must create only hardcore RPGs, whatever those are. Any attempt to verge from this path will be a betrayal of all that's good and holy in the world"
Any interview I saw or read with the developers about ME2 left me in no doubt about the type of game it was. They said time and time again they were trying to fuse the best parts of a shooter and RPG together.
Exciting combatStory drivenGood charactersConsequences to your actionsCustomisation, and yes I do feel I can personalise my character. 
They claimed to have fixed most of the bugs and performance issues

I never once saw them claim there would be 2000 different guns, 600 different pieces of armour etc

Like the OP I play all types of games and I followed the videos in the run up to release so I got more or less what I expected.

I never expected Mass Effect 2 to be this good though, amazing video game. Is it an RPG?,  what even is an RPG? as someone in this thread is claiming Dragon Age isn't an RPG either. I don't know and frankly I couldn't care as I love Mass Effect 2 for what it is, not for what some other game is.

#64
Daiyus

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I don't think anyone is denying that certain upgrades wern't necessary. The way ME2 handles is far smoother than ME1. Most people would agree that ME1's loot and inventory systems were over complicated and were eventually uneeded. I think most would also agree that the consequences of your actions are a lot bigger this time around, and the interactions are more believable. All in all I have to praise BioWare for creating another outstanding game.



Having said that ME2 is not perfect, and there things it's predecessor did better. As a community it's our job to tell BioWare these things. If everyone just 'accepted' every decision they made the game would become stagnated. Things are permanantly in need of improvement in the gaming world, and as fans we are the best people to get feedback from becuase we can clock so much time between us in the game.



For me personally I felt ME2 was lacking in personal character development. Not in a story sense, but in the traditional RPG sense. I liked having a multitude of abilities at my disposal. After playing ME1 again ME2 feels extremely restricted in the number of powers and abilities Shepard has access to or the player can manually adjust. For example, the Charm/Intimidate is now part of Paragon/Renegade, I personally preffered applying points to those skills manually. It was a choice to spend points on avoid/be better at combat. Those kind of choices are important to me in a game such as ME. I will however concede that this Four Tier 'short tree' concept is a good one, as is the ability to 'evolve' the power at the end.



The same can be said for weapons and armour. In ME1 there were 100's of weapons and armour sets. Plus the ability to modify them with a multitude of mods to provide for personalised needs. Again, most people will accept the fact that in ME1 most weapons of a class were nigh identical in the way they handled. All Assualt Rifles had the same ROF and sounded the same, which made them all feel the same. The same can be said for every other weapon class. But while there was still room to adjust for personal taste becuase there were balances between damage, accuracy, and rounds before overheat, along with modifications, it felt like there was more choice than the one or two options in ME2. It's that choice that many people crave. And rather than improving on what they had, they stripped it right down. I'll be honest, I do like the idea of the new system. But I would've expected at least one of each weapon class from each manufacturer, and the ability to apply mods (this is where the Upgrade Station might come in, mods research).



It's the same problem with armour. Yes it's great that we can adjust individual pieces, and coulours/materials. But what use is that when theres nearly no choices? Sure the armour segments have small bonuses, but they're so small that most people just choose what looks good. And where is the decision of Light, Medium, or Heavy armour? The choice to sacrifice mobility for protection?



When comparing to ME1 there is nearly no choices for the player in terms of equipment, and the meaningful stats of them. Many players of ME1 enjoyed having those options and trade offs, and that's why there are complaints.

#65
flem1

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No, from hardcore complainers.

#66
Archilochos

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Darkehood wrote...

LoL from the sounds of it, your someone that has been at this as long or maybe even longer then I have... 

For me any good RPG...  Role Playing Game is about a balance of realism.   
It has to offer enough realism that you can immerse yourself in playing your role the way that logically it would be played.  It has to be balanced though so that there isn't tooo much realism to the point of becoming mundane or overly restrictive.    (most have always just accepted the fact that "ok in fact I'm carrying an inventory that would kill a mule, but I rolled an 18 on Str so I'll just play along and accept the fact that I can carry that much in my pack)
 
I'll accept (and still be happy) and enjoy a game even if a lot of other things are missing as long as it has a good balance of realism and fantasy as I just described...   ME1 achieved that near pefect balance.  Some changes in ME2 I like...   ammo for instance...  I think it actually adds to the importance of weapon selection and realism...  but then removing weapon skills to use those weapons... kinda counter acts that balance and just ends up being a "WTF"  

Not being able to change gear without having to deal with 3 loading screens....  (1. to go back to the Normandy, 1 to take the elevator to your cabin, 1 to go back to the port you were at because for some reason as soon as you board the Normandy it departs and your end up in deep space) to me is a really serious WTF moment doesn't add to either the realism or the functionality....    

So when it comes to ME2 being a good RPG....    well....    I'd say no...   it's the opposite.   I'd love to really get into playing my role as Cmd Sheppard but due to so many WTF moments that break the emersion... it's hard to get into and stay in character and play your role...  

Didn't things like that really bother you when you were playing?   I found it very fustrating....  it was like really trying to get into reading a novel ... but having the phone ring every couple of pages.... 


I understand what you're getting at with the "balance of realism" notion - the reason not many games have an eating/drinking system anymore is that most thought it was a little too much realism.  At the same time, I'm not sure I get the problem you're having with the new inventory... yes, it would theoretically take several loading screens to change gear in ME2, but how many reasons are there to actually do that?  Unless you plan on going back right away to research the upgrade you've just found, what could you gain by leaving mid-mission to re-equip?  I think I'd find it much more jarring if Shep said "I know we're in a race to save the galaxy, but my old pistol just looks so much cooler."

Achievement pop-ups were distracting, and I had all the usual "Why isn't there a response that says _____?" moments during dialogue that every gamer has, but overall WTF moments didn't average more than most games.  As gamers, we're used to accepting one set of unrealistic rules as a given; in this case, many of those are gone, replaced either by more realistic rules or by other, different unrealistic ones.  When you so strongly expect the same (unrealistic) concepts for so long, something new but equally unrealistic (or even more realistic) can appear confusing in the context of a game.

When new technology or new design conventions pop up, there's a period of adjustment.  When 3D came along, a lot of gamers thought the new tech favored action over strategy and RPG, and that those two genres would be in danger.  They're still here.  I'm sure if / when virtual reality comes along, many of us will worry that it clearly favors FPS games, and that our RPGs will be doomed (again).  I'm sure that, once again, RPGs will survive.  And with all that virtual reality tech, I'm sure conversations will be wild.  (And I'm sure the popularity of romances will skyrocket to way beyond creepy.  And I'm sure I'll still play them).

#67
Spell Singer

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Coughee Brotha wrote...

 First I love RPGs as much as the next person.  I have a huge collection of them.  But I also like action games and I like shooters so maybe this is why I can live with the changes in ME2.  Though I do miss some of the RPG elements I am not nearly  down on the game as a lot of these people I see on the forum.  IN no way is this a bad game or a ruined franchise.  I dont know why Im taking this personal but some of these comments is like a slap in the face to the developers after they worked so hard to fix the thiings we didnt like in the first game.  They sat there and listened when they didn't have to.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but if you dont like the changes( which I see one of the biggest complaints is RPG elements) then just say it but there is no need for insults.    The game is a lot more fluid and intense than the first one ( as many requested)  but some people are just lookin for perfection which is impossible.  


Well I missed the hate stuff so I'm not sure what was said on the forums about the "RPG" part of the game but frankly a leveling system doesn't make anything an RPG.  There are RPGs that don't have levels, many many many of them.  The fact you have no stats is also not really a problem and is largely covered by tech upgrades anyway, and you pick your skills and develop your character as you see fit so from that point of view it is an RPG.  The game is an RPG in every way that counts to me.  It removed the XP for killing things and made it dependant on missions, this is great step forward.  The cinematic presentation makes it seriously immersive and again seeing the results of your choices and decisions is exactly what an RPG is about, at least speaking as a GM, that is what I do: present the players with situations, let them solve them and then adapt the universe around that including the consiquences good and bad of those choices.  Where is that lacking in ME2?

The credits situation is also improved.  No longer does the finding of junk translate into a huge bank account which removes the value of the credit.  Even at lvl 20 each one of my purchases is balanced against my income sources.  It makes each buy a decision and I like that.  Having millions of credits and going on huge buying sprees made the first game nonsensical.

Speaking personally I don't consider a "single player computer RPG" anything but an oxymoron anyway.  Role playing is a social activity its pretty much impossible to do it alone.  It is like comparing playing solitare to playing a round of 99 with the family at christmas...just not the same thing.  But at least in ME you can maintain a character concept, and they have done some amazing things for promoting imersion.  The interupt event so far has never let me down with giving me a quality experience.

As for the combat system.  I was originally horrified by what I heard about it.  So much so that I fully expected to despise the game.  As it turns out the combat system changes are not so bad.  Even for an old guy with no twitch relfexes.  However, it is not more intense, and argueably it isn't any better.  It is just different.

Intense depends on the situation not the game mechanics.  Being caught on a stair well, both your companions down, no medi-gel, hits at 25% and surrounded by 5 thorian creepers is "intense" and it doesn't matter what the combat system is.

The simplification of the new combat system has both good and bad points depending on what you want out of the combat system.  Since you have fewer powers the experience is less tactical in ME2 than in ME1.  But the fact that the system is based on firing from cover in ME2 is, for me, a huge improvement.  I can't "run and gun" heck I can barely hit moving enemies except by blind luck...so firing on stationary targets from cover is personally an improvement in mechanics for me.  ME1 was more fluid combat, while ME2 is much more static combat.

I don't think you can compare the two directly and certainly while I can see people prefering one over the other neither one, if you are fair about it, is better than the other.  The improvements for ME2 seem to be a far better squad mate AI script as I never see them stuck in corners or shooting me in the back any more, plus (for the XBox 360) the ability to send the squad mate to an individual location.  I would have been happy with an improved ME1 system but I can't say that I have a serious issue with the new system.

Things like heat sinks are more problematic I don't see this as an improvement.  I also find the UI not as good as it could be in terms of informing me on my allies health and shield status.

The changes to inventory and weapon upgrades I can't find much fault in.  As I say above coupled with no XP for random killing they produce a much more balanced game...more akin to what happens when you have a real live GM who monitors this sort of thing.

I went into the game dreading what I would find.  I expected "shooter" and "garbage" and I am stunned and amazed at the job Bioware has done.  Combat in any single player computer RPG is always excessive and generally it all blurs into a forgotten smear so I don't get too excited by the combat system...and the new one doesn't strike me as an improvement but it is like comparing wine to beer.  There are people who prefer one to the other but it is entirely personal preference.

At the end of the day the game is a fantastic RPG and complaints about that strike me as absurd.  Even when I was dreading the arrival of the game, I never worried that bioware would not provide on the story front, I just worried the damn thing whould be unplayable by a fumble finger old foggie with no twitch reflexes to speak of.

#68
Sarkus

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There are fans of ME1 who tolerated the shooter/action aspects in order to get the quality story and other RPG elements the game offered. That there are so few sci-fi RPGs helped convince them to put up with those aspects of the game (mainly combat) they didn't like.



ME2 pushes the franchise more in the direction of the action/shooter while giving up some of it's "classic" RPG elements. This pushed some of the ME1 fans farther then they are willing to go. There are some people, for example, who enjoy the inventory management aspect of traditional RPGs. On top of that, the initial impression of the game for a lot of ME1 fans is confusion over why so much was changed, not only in terms of gameplay but also interface and even background. All that takes time to digest. Even though I enjoy shooters, I was a bit thrown off by all the changes at first and it took me some time to get into the game. I believe that some of the biggest complainers are blowing off early frustrations and will/did ultimately find that the game was still a satisfying sequel. Some, however, will never be happy with what is different because ME1 was already pushing their personal limits.




#69
Pedro Costa

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The problem here isn't that people complain, since everyone has the right to say their peace about something they've bought, but rather, it is in how people complain and what they complain about.



In truth, I find it offensive the way "real RPG" players downplay and insult FPS and TPS players not for playing games that lack story (let's face it, only recently have FPS and TPS trully started being fleshed out) but for playing games where you hit what you aim at.

Honestly, what freaking kind of logic is that?!

Think for a bit, then try to come up with a reasonable answer why in a game where you have an over-the-shoulder view (ie: Mass1 & 2) you shouldn't hit the dammed place you are aiming at from two meters away. Seriously, think about that.

Second, the ammo system, in ME-lore it's not ammo, it's heat sinks. The devs are tired of telling this, but people keep covering their ears and going lalala refuse to hear you. It works like ammo, but in ME lore, it's a heat sink system that doesn't contradict ME1 lore.

Do I like it? No. Do I hate it?No. I simply don't care about it, although it does add more tactical depth to the game (funny that the people who complain about "ammo" *and* insult FPS players say the game lost tactical depth/was watered down when they aren't even trying to see the tactical requirements of using ammo, then again, there are so many heat sinks throughout the levels it's not even worth complaining)



And, if these people are "true, real RPG" fans, why aren't they expressing their disappointment in not being able to equip your team, to talk and interact more with them, to have more team talents to build your squad, to be able to have a more interactive and customized modding system for the weapons/bio-amps/omni-tools? To give more hotkeys for the keyboard?

These are things that I'd agree being worth expressing dissatisfaction about, seeing that they need improvement.

But whining (not complaining or expressing a view point, actually whining) because you can't keep firing or that in a game with an over-the-shoulder view you want the game to hit for you?

Seriously guys... at least have the decency not to insult pc players and/or FPS/TPS players, like I've already read in this very same topic.

*Please*, if you can't see how unreasonable it sounds, then at least have some class and don't insult those of us who like other genres besides RPG and/or own a pc, you know, that thing where the games you play in your consoles are made in...

#70
Darkehood

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Archilochos wrote...

I understand what you're getting at with the "balance of realism" notion - the reason not many games have an eating/drinking system anymore is that most thought it was a little too much realism.  At the same time, I'm not sure I get the problem you're having with the new inventory... yes, it would theoretically take several loading screens to change gear in ME2, but how many reasons are there to actually do that?  Unless you plan on going back right away to research the upgrade you've just found, what could you gain by leaving mid-mission to re-equip?  I think I'd find it much more jarring if Shep said "I know we're in a race to save the galaxy, but my old pistol just looks so much cooler."


When new technology or new design conventions pop up, there's a period of adjustment.  When 3D came along, a lot of gamers thought the new tech favored action over strategy and RPG, and that those two genres would be in danger.  They're still here.  I'm sure if / when virtual reality comes along, many of us will worry that it clearly favors FPS games, and that our RPGs will be doomed (again).  I'm sure that, once again, RPGs will survive.  And with all that virtual reality tech, I'm sure conversations will be wild.  (And I'm sure the popularity of romances will skyrocket to way beyond creepy.  And I'm sure I'll still play them).



I don't understand what your getting at with the first paragraph... 

  Bioware decided to add realism to ME2 by making it take 3 load screens to do a very simple function that you could do on the fly in ME1?

  and then said it's too realistic to be able to crouch and move to cover... just run there.?

   Yes... your on a mission to save the galaxy...
but you have time to stop and scan planets for various metals .... so yeah I figure I'd re-visit the odd port here and there.... see if I missed anything etc....   but excluding my desire to just goof around...    ok say you are just following the main mission....  you need to go to dock at a single port to recruit both Arch Angel and the Prof ( I don't think that's a spoiler... since it's laid out for you at the start?)  So logically....   you'd dock at port....   go find one...  and then maybe go find the other....   or go find one... go back to the ship... talk to them... then go find the other....  go back to the ship... talk to them....    so since you asked what reasons there would be to visit the ship mid mission....  there's two...  

I'm sure you must understand how something like that effects emersion?
I run through a door.... find the fella I'm looking for...  try to go back through the same door I just ran in from....  I know there is another room on the other side of the door because I was just in it..... 
but because that's the end of the 'mission' all of a sudden when I click on that door...  I only have the option to 'stay' or 'leave'  .....  and leaving puts me back on the ship that is now no longer at the port... it's out in space....    so fly back to the port that I didn't want to leave in the first place....   and go get the second squad mate...    "oh and while I'm here I'll finish up that side quest....   DOH...  I'm back out in space AGAIN"    

If your saying you don't see the stupidity in that whole process....  then maybe I'm just getting old and bitter... 
What ever the case....    I'll still end up playing ME3 ....  Jade Empire 2 (if they ever make one) and the Old Republic MMO.... the difference will probably be that I'll no longer be pre-ordering...  and maybe pick renting over buying when applicable.

Just so there is no mistake....    I like RPG's and also like RTS's ... FPS's....    my issues with ME2 are not related to what ever debate was going previous in the forums...    

   

Modifié par Darkehood, 05 février 2010 - 10:43 .


#71
lord magnious

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I'm in the same boat as you OP. I pray that these complaints doesn't jeopardize ME3.
For me, ME3 needs to have:
 
More weapons and party armor.
 
Someone to proof read their planetary description.  I’m a big astronomy buff!  Posted Image
 
Everything else NEEDS to the same!
 
I DO NOT want to see weapon stats in ME3.Posted Image
Stats for armor and other upgrades are fine.
 I felt more connected to these characters ( especially TaliPosted Image )  than to any of the character from ME1.

Edit-

Archdemon Cthulhu wrote...

And if loading screens break your immersion, well then I don't even know what to do with that.  Every RPG has loading screens constantly.  Especially Bioware ones.



This! Totally this!

Just more proof that the complainers are "ME1" fanboys/girls rather than ME fanboys/girls

Modifié par lord magnious, 05 février 2010 - 10:52 .


#72
Spell Singer

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I can't recall missing a target 2 m away in ME1 even when using a sniper rifle firing from the hip. So its hard to see this is a valid complaint about the ME1 system. Generally speaking I rarely missed what I was aiming at specifically in ME1. But nothing is certain in a combat environment, there is always murphy, distraction, and any number of things to ensure that you don't hit. Hitting what you "aim" at all the time is more unrealistic.



Heat sinks are not an improvement lore wise since in one case you have fire discipline and now all you have is a limit on overall number of shots from a weapon that theoretically has unlimited (in the tactical combat sense) ammo. Why should I have to stop using my assault rifle and pull out my pistol when in the lore I have to just slap in another tungsten block? "Short Controlled Bursts" worked well in ME1..."Rock and Roll" seems to be the way to go in ME2. I don't see how going to what is nothing more than a thinly disguised ammo pick up, that originated in Doom or earlier actually adds to the game. But since in most battles heat sinks (even in situations where it makes no sense for them to be around) are common enough the issue rarely arises. It is a different mechanic and as I say above it is largely personal preference. But I very rarely overheated my weapon in ME1 and when that happened it was largely in the first part of the game after completing the game and having to get used to the shorter allowable burst length again.



I miss more interaction with the squad, I want to talk to my crew more, I want to send a message to Mom, I want to visit the medical clinic on the Citadel, I want to see Emily in person, I want to do a lot more interactive things with the people around me. This is always the case but...well there is a limit and as much as I want this I can understand the game will eventually have a limit.



I have been playing role playing games for nearly 30 years, and war games a few years longer. That makes me a grognard hardcore RPGer I guess and as far as I am concerned combat systems are all pretty much nothing to get excited about since the ones in RPGs are always deviations from reality. Except of course the combat system in the Morrow Project and that was so realistic it was unplayable. I don't play shooters but that is from personal preference and the only games I have for my Xbox are ME1 and ME2 as not a single other one interested me.



The fellow a few above this said it best, ME1 pushes a lot of people outside their comfort zone. I died about 6 or 7 times in the first encounter on Eden Prime until I figured out the controller and the system. Heck I never figured cover out till Fist's office. I was playing on the highest possible difficulty setting at this time. I spent pretty much an afternoon figuring a way (via trial and death) to rescue Liara and get past that battlemaster. I read comments by people who complain about how easy the game was (and the same complaints are there now for ME2). But speaking personally "Run and Gun" beyond being nonsensical in real life (you can't hit anything) is not a skill people with no previous experience in "shooters" are likely to have. Is it unfair to blame them for venting about this? It is like when the people who are in it for the shooter parts complain about the cut scenes, the codex entries, the story elements...or ask why is the game so short?



I just don't see how mechanics...either the combat system mechanics or the character development mechanics can define something like "Is it an RPG?" The game is a damn fine RPG regardless of what combat mechanics you have to deal with, adore, or despise or if you have levels and a inventory management system.



Heck the game has me even liking characters I thought I would want to flush out the airlock.

#73
branewalker

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Perhaps I can make sense to the people who are wondering about complaints.  Let me address some things very specifically.

1. The new ammo system.
It defies the fiction of the game. First, if it were actually "heat clips" then I would only need a few, and they would be re-usable.  Drop them when they're hot, pop in a new one, pick them up after the battle when they are cool.  Not how they work, they are spent like ammo.
If they actually stored and dissipated heat, then firing the gun more slowly would conserve ammo.  Firing rate does nothing to ammo consumption, they are usable only for a pre-determined number of shots, like ammo.
Finally, heat-clip pick-ups are supposed to be universal.  Don't even understand when a pickup will give me a set amount of ammo for each weapon when they are all empty, but the same amount of ammo for an individual gun when my carrying capacity for the other two is full.  If one clip gives me some "ammo" for the SMG, the pistol, and the sniper rifle, when the pistol and SMG are full, shouldn't it give me 3x as much for the sniper rifle? It doesn't.
First, it swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, but it's described as something other than a duck. Second, it doesn't even make internal sense.  Third, the change it confers to combat is "different" at best, but "inferior" is a better term.  You'd have to love the new ammo system an awful lot to believe that its defiance of the canon set by ME1 is justified. Or you would have to not care about the Mass Effect universe as a whole, or be ambivalent as to whether Bioware presented a cohesive game world.  All of the above conclusions place you firmly in the "action gamer" camp, and firmly against a dedicated RPG fan whose stance is that story comes first. To borrow a famous line, "There will actually be some...science...in our science fiction story, right?"

Man, that was a good rant, but I haven't quite made my point. Let's revisit that from a slightly different angle. Let's say that we're Bioware, and we're trying to make our game franchise, Mass Effect, better for its second outing. Now, we've got this cool idea about weapons needing no ammo that we think slowed things down a bit.because players always had to wait for heat to dissipate if they were impatient. Now, let's say that we made a lot of fans who loved our game, very few of whom complained about this mechanic. (especially compared to the real complaints, like same-y planets and sidequest design, poor inventory management, etc.). However, our choice is to add ammo back to the game.  But, to shoe-horn it into the fiction, we need to explain it away as "heat clips" even though it doesn't work like that, it actually works just like ammo. Now the outcome of this decision gets all the way to market with no one saying "wait, we simultaneously sent our ammunition mechanic back to 1995, nullifying our initial innovation, AND created a massive contradiction where our story touches gameplay?" As Bioware, should I pretend that the decision was right, and players don't know it, or do I admit my mistake and fix the system for Mass Effect 3 (AKA Spin Effect). Bioware, you've mannaged to kill two stones with one bird. This is truly a defeature.

So, how would I have done it? Layer heat and "ammo" mechanics on top of one another.  Keep the heat system from ME1, but make overheated guns dissipate a bit faster (or have a red zone, and while the heat is above a certain threshhold, the weapon won't fire, but it will fire just fine below that threshhold, instead of waiting for it to completely cool after an over-heat) THEN add heat clips.  These little beauties will instantly dump waste heat by ejecting a heat sink (or some thermal absorbant compound). If solid heat sinks are used, these litter the ground after battle, and can be reclaimed.  Otherwise, you have a limited amount and after you're out, you have to deal with overheating like normal, but you never run out of ammo for any gun. It works for faster gameplay, preserves the fiction, AND provides another interesting decision during combat. Now I am presented with a choice when my gun overheats: spend a finite resource to end the fight quickly, or spend some time, conserve the resource, and potentially endanger my team, my mission, and myself. That would have made the bomb-defusion mission even MORE exciting, deciding whether to burn through heat clips to move more quickly, or pace myself for fear of running out and getting stalled just before the control room. (For the record, I would burn the clips and push forward as fast as possible, heedless of danger).

2. Inventory wasn't the problem, inventory MANAGEMENT was the problem.
Part of the appeal of RPGs (especially hack-and-slashers like Diablo) is collecting equipment. Players like getting specific new THINGS, not just generic new STUFF. Sure, all the weapons in ME1 basically did the same things, so I liked how different guns were a bit more qualitatively different in ME2, but there are so FEW. It feels like the lack of items is a giant vacuum waiting to be filled by DLC.  They presented a huge toybox to us the first time, filled with lots of similar toys, and people said, "this is great, but more variety, please!" Then ME2 presents the same size toybox with more variety, but only two different toys, the rest yawningly empty. Fallout 3 made the player manage all sorts of random crap, some of it completely useless. I didn't have a problem with it, because it was all auto-sorted by type, then alphabetically, not the other way around.
Furthermore, I think it's been since 1995 that RPGs have let me see if the equipment in the shop is better than what is equipped on party member not currently present. Not Mass Effect, though! It's not like we have 23rd century communications technology to be able to, y'know, call up Wrex real quick and ask him what the stats on his suit are, so I know whether I better pick up this krogan heavey armor for him. I guess he had to try it on to make sure it fit or something. Sure, removing the inventory is a radical solution to interface problems, but decidedly sub-optimal.

3. Sidequests and planets are better, but Mako greater-than-sign planet scanning and gas-guzzling.
Ok, again with the science fiction minus science. First, if it costs millions of creds to mine these planets, how am I doing so with a few hundred creds and some probes? Also, why is fuel use constant over distance in inter-stellar travel? We even hear the lecture on the Citadel about Newton's Law. "An object in motion stays in motion until acted upon by an outside force." In space, fuel is spent to accelerate, decelerate, and change course. Otherwise, ships coast on their own inertia. Ship systems are constant energy expenditures, but that's trivial to accelerating to light speed or faster. They probably use solar power and batteries for most ship systems, if not nuclear power (nuclear waste is not a problem with you simply eject it into the nearest star).  It made more sense when Shepard was simply using the star map to select the next destination, instead of flying the little model of the Normandy through it while making "vrooom, vroom" sounds with his mouth.
Oh, and I don't know how annoying piloting the Mako on the Xbox was, but it was decently fun, if a little tedious on PC. Mostly that tedium came from the boring planetary environments (all basically bumpy, but different colors of bumpy) and the small radar area. Removing the Mako and making every planet different colors of smooth, with exploration via a super-slow scanner with a small radar area really improved things.  Wait, no it didn't: it removed the interesting aspects and changed the boring aspects to more-boring aspects. I loved the asteroid from BDTS, loved the binary planets, and exploring Klendagon's sister planet (except when a hue-swapped Klendagon appears in the sky above other planets in completely different systems).

I don't hate ME2. I think it's a better game than ME1, but it is better despite the overhaul they did to game systems.  It's better because they added lots of interesting characters, and the old characters that come back are deeper than before. It's better because the emotional impact of Shepard as a living legend comes home dues to my personal involvement in that legend (having played ME1, the callbacks to the original game make ME2 more engaging and make my decisions in ME1 more personal and more real). ME2 is better because the combat thrives on the quickened pace and more intricate strategy due to the more varied environments, quicker skill recharge, and sheild/armor/health system. It's better because they recognized that the only part of character improvement that mattered was hitting those little milestones on the skill tree, so they reduced it to just the milestones. It was better because the minigames were more than circular frogger. It was better because of the aforementioned more diverse environments: Haestrom, Tuchanka, Ilium, Joker's mission, that little misty planet side mission... all were unique and memorable.

I give Bioware props for making an awesome game, but I'm bewindered by some of the downright DUMB changes they made. It sounds like Bioware listened to its fans, but didn't understand them. I know what makes Mass Effect great, does Bioware?

#74
branewalker

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@Spell Singer: looks like you were hard at work on your epic post reply just as I was. Very well-made point, I think.



Perhaps to add to what you're saying is this: RPGs aren't about the mechanics, because from the very beginning, mechanics served to reinforce the role-play. D&D was designed to let players imagine themselves in a fantasy world, interact to create a narrative, and have some rules about how to go about that. The rules are arbitrary in that they facilitate arbitration. They answer the questions like, "Wait, can a paladin really do that?"



Likewise, in Mass Effect, the difference in the first and second games is their method of arbitrating game events. Personal taste influences much of it, but I would contend that when those rule changes do damage to the role-play aspect of the game, they are unequivocally bad moves. Like the ammo system we're both talking about.



Most of my other points are merely expectation versus delivery, like fans saying "inventory management is bad, please improve it." Bioware says "no more inventory." Fans say "Mako is hard to control and planets are boring to explore. Please fix controls and make planets more interesting." Bioware says "no more Mako." Understandable reasons to be upset, but certainly more like the case of personal preference than the first complaint. Even the fuel consumption is easier to explain (but I like the mental image of my explanation better than a technical one =D).



I'm totally with you about wanting more out of the character interaction, but, it's quality over quantity with character interaction in Mass Effect, and the second one exemplifies this even more than the first in my opinion.



Same with the reduction of complexity. I can imagine this freed up time to spend designing a few interesting planets, rather than letting the player land on all of them.

#75
Bluemax151

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First, kudos to hard-case for even referncing/mentioning the gold box games!

Coughee Brotha wrote...

 First I love RPGs as much as the next person.  I have a huge collection of them.  But I also like action games and I like shooters so maybe this is why I can live with the changes in ME2.  Though I do miss some of the RPG elements I am not nearly  down on the game as a lot of these people I see on the forum.  IN no way is this a bad game or a ruined franchise.  I dont know why Im taking this personal but some of these comments is like a slap in the face to the developers after they worked so hard to fix the thiings we didnt like in the first game.  They sat there and listened when they didn't have to.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but if you dont like the changes( which I see one of the biggest complaints is RPG elements) then just say it but there is no need for insults.    The game is a lot more fluid and intense than the first one ( as many requested)  but some people are just lookin for perfection which is impossible.  

Like yourself I am an "RPG" game enthusiast that also enjoys other genres. Other arguments aside ME2 still fails to emulate the TPS quality of games like Army of Two and Gears of War (which are often critiicized as for the "dumb"). Ironically Army of Two actually even has more visable weapon statistics than ME2. Yes the gameplay is much smoother but it has been stripped nearly naked and is still unrefined.

Not a terrible game by any means though but if there is no criticism NOTHING will be fixed for ME3. Is there a huge over reaction by the vocal minority? Probably.