73 réponses à ce sujet

[ShaggyWolf]

The lack of emotion wasn't an issue for me, in fact I never really thought about it until I read this thread. It wasn't a problem for me because since my character was based on myself, any emotions I was feeling during a certain part of the game was probably the same as what my character was feeling. I don't think he really needed to go out of his way to display that. If I was sad, I knew my character was sad, know what I'm saying? And there were points in the game where intense things would be going on and the character would react to them. In my opinion, that happened just enough. If they had our characters emotionally reacting to everything in one way or another, it would eventually break what is acceptable for our characters. I suppose I'm just content with using my imagination.



It kind of goes along with why the player's character never speaks the dialogue options, I'm glad they don't do that for similar reasons. I feel both of those would ruin the idea of my own character.

[Giant ambush beetle]

You shouldn't forget that your party slaughters thousands of enemies in the most brutal fashion cutting off limbs, beheading enemies, seeing friends die. Seeing so much death in such a short amount of time really hardens your character and buries your emotions, you will undergo a dramatic personality change. 
As example I read a lot of books written by soldiers from their time in war, I tell you, only two years can change a man forever. At the end the soldier didn't care much about anything at all, in the end he wa just a machine, eating, sleeping, killing - he saw a lot of indescribable brutal things but he had no emotions anymore for his friends or anything else besides his own survival. 

War will do that, and in DAO you are at war!

Modifié par The Woldan , 05 février 2010 - 02:45 .

[Ayanna Nyx]

The lack of emotion was not really an issue for me either, but my fiance brought it up once or twice. It would be a cool idea if you could select the manner or whatnot as well as the worded response. But let's just say I did not feel anything was really 'lost; in there being no emotion from our own characters, but it would be a nice addition in the future.

[Mlai00]

In your character avatar portraits, you can select his emotion, albeit in a still-frame. However, that goes to show that emotion routines can be written for characters created by the generator.

Yeah he's in a war. But from his dialogue options, the PC has plenty of emotion. Weak excuse.

Citing the "JRPG mute character" reason for not having emotions is an even weaker excuse afaic. And an ancient one, too.

[Dubidox]

Franpa wrote...

Here is a very simple and likely reason for why there are very little facial expressions. The characters face can be heavily modified in various way making it hard to come up with a animation system that will look decent with all the possible variations.

My solution to that would be to restrict animated PC's to presets with only simple things like Hair Colour, Skin Tone, Eye Colour etc. being adjustable. That way you can optimize the animation model for a select few models.

I think this is related to the issue of some people seeing good expressiveness on their PCs faces and some not.  I know my first character I pretty much made his face from scratch, and I noticed that it wasn't expressive at all.  In fact it kinda put me off at times where in cutscenes with heavy emotion, he just seemed to have a blank owl-eyed look on his face.

I've replayed plenty of times afterwards and started to notice a trend:

If you base your character's face off a preset and avoid tweaking the structure very much you end up with a more expressive face.  It makes sense: obviously the expression animations need to be tuned according to the structure of the face, the thickness of the brow, the size/shape of the eyes, mouth, etc.  It makes sense that the preset facial structures would be more in line with the expression animations than something you cook up yourself.

As for the OPs point, I agree that it would be nice to see them work on animations/gestures of the models more, and incorporate them better into dialogue/cutscenes.  Since I prefer to play non-human races in RPGs, I noticed early on discrepancies in some of the cutscene animations(Kisses and interacting with the environment) due to the fact that I was playing a character that didn't fit the dimensions of the human model.  They did a decent job with eye tracking though, so I don't doubt that those kinds of issues are on their priority list.

[errant_knight]

I agree to an extent. While I was able to read emotion into my choices based on my perception of the character and the responses to my word, I would enjoy being able to show more anger/sadness/love based on my personal choice. I had the notion that there could be emoticons that you click on as well as choosing your words, but quickly dismissed this idea. The number of possible responses from characters you're speaking to would grow exponentially, and the interface would probably become cumbersome. Still, there were times that I would have liked to express sadness not in relation to the other characters, or say something supportive that wasn't about a specific situation--that sort of thing.



Still, we have to remember that choosing the correct response if part of the game, and a bit of a puzzle, and are tied to approval ratings. It can't always be obvious or easy.

[Bibdy]

Because YOU feel those emotions. Its not a difficult concept to grasp. Something happens in the game, you get happy/pissed at it and your character chooses dialogue options to reflect that happiness/pissed-offiness. Therefore, your character is a representation of you and you feel an attachment.

I feel far less attached to characters like Shepard in ME, because he's doing most of the talking and emotion for me and I can't use my own inner-monologue voice over the top of his voice acting.

Modifié par Bibdy, 05 février 2010 - 06:05 .

[Elanareon]

No emotions? huwow! Final Fantasy was over-acting i say!

[Sylvius the Mad]

Franpa wrote...

Here is a very simple and likely reason for why there are very little facial expressions. The characters face can be heavily modified in various way making it hard to come up with a animation system that will look decent with all the possible variations.

The characters already do grimace when they are hit during combat.  It's quite an effective grimace.

[baby-bro]

RangerSG wrote...

baby-bro wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

I might like a little more facial emotion from the PC, perhaps. But I don't really care to get touchy-feely with other characters, other than a romance interest.

That would only work if we could control that facial expression.  We can't have the PC expressing emotions we don't think he should be feeling, let alone expressing.

That's one of the places where Mass Effect goes wrong - it assigns emotions to the PC without consulting the player.  I absolutely do not want that.

I would say it would work in instances like the cutscene at the beginning of the Dark Night of the Couslands (not to give away spoilers here). There's certainly moments like that in thegame where the PC should express a bit more emotion.

But I agree, I simply don't want a whole lot of face-slapping, chest-thumping, fake cheer emotions. A party based RPG isn't that kind of game, period. 

According to who, you?  If bioware doesn't want to add the "ability" to display emotions in the game, than they should drop the entire schtick of having the character suppose to represent you in the first place. Because quite frankly, it doesn't. Just because "you" don't want to display or have emotion in the game doesn't mean it shouldn't. What I'm saying and this doesn't infringe on you in anyway, is that to add emotions for those that want their characters to actually display, well emotions.  Just the option. Therefore, nobody is force. And with that, those that want their characters to be stoic, can be, and those that want their characters to have emotions, also have the option.

Well first of all, the character doesn't represent YOU. The character is an avatar of a role you create in a world. It's not "you," it's "your role." There is a distinction. My characters rarely are played with my personal character traits and motivations. They are their OWN individuals. And they are individuals walking in the world the game has created. Not importing MY sensibilities into that world. So no, it's not representing "me." That isn't role-playing. That's first person action gaming. My character is a unique creation for a unique setting, like and unlike me.

Second, that's simply not what Western RPGs do. They're not based on the pre-set avatar of a JRPG that then has a pre-set/pre-loaded personality already installed. The point of the Western RPG is, just like a tabletop, YOU would supply the appropriate emotion. Not have it force-fed to you by the game. Go down the list of Western RPGs and show me one that does this back-slapping, high-fiving emotional routine. MMOs do emotes, but MMOs are an entirely different beast. It's simply not something Western Single Players RPGs do.

The character is suppose to represent you. I'm not sure where you believe otherwise. But bioware themselves have often in the games stated that these characters are suppose to be you in their shoes. Here are quotes from reviewers and others who seem to believe the same way.

"What gets me with Mass Effect 2 is just how well done the story is and how much it makes me feel like I'm that character. When you build your Shepard up (or continue building him or her up if you imported your previous commander), you are that person. When I was choosing whether I would let squadmates shoot foes or if I would tell off space cops who were being jerks, I was making those decisions – it wasn't Drake or some other assigned character; this was a Shepard I had created and I was picking her path. There isn't that connection in Uncharted. Drake is Drake – he makes the call on what he is going to say or do and you're along for the ride. It's a great ride, but it's a linear one. In BioWare's game, you form friendships and then have to put those friends in harm's way and live with the consequences. "

"I don't want them to TELL ME a story, and this seems[/i] to be the direction of ME. I want to participate in one - I want who my character is to be more wholly defined by me. Different methods work for different people. Some people strongly object to having any storyline at all. Some people strongly object to dialogue choices. I start objecting when the character's appearance, significant portions of the background, voice, name, etc are not mine to choose."

I can go on and on, but bioware themselves, reviewers, and fans often praise this game for being a representation of you. Not your role. Otherwise, if it was just your role, you wouldn't need a character creation slot to allow it to look like you. After all, you can fit your role within anybody if needed be.

And that has been my biggest problem with wrpg's. For a character that is suppose to represent you, you should be able to react with an emotion on screen with the way you feel in real life. If leiliana is sad and I want to hug her, I should have the option to. Not want to hug her, but say, oh your alright. That completely contradict how I feel in comparison to what is available on the screen. Because there is no emotions, I cannot make the decisions that I wish to make because my emotions does not match the options I have on screen at all. And that's why I cannot relate to these characters. But the big difference between Bioware and others is that Bioware have prided themselves, and often tout about how these characters are suppose to be you as it being one of their best assets. My point was to show bioware what is needed for these characters to feel like they are the player to some players, primarily the ones who seek to have their characters have emotions and not stoic.

[baby-bro]

AntiChri5 wrote...

@ OP: Play ME 2.

At one point one of my freinds stumbled onto the corpse of her father and the dialouge option i chose led to me holding her for a moment while she collected herself.

WTF? Are you serious! Finally! For christ sake I thought options like these would never happen.  Alright so it looks like bioware is learning. Looks like I picked up the wrong game, however. 

So I'm glad that they are offering this option more. Hopefully we see more of this as well as the opposite. For example, say if one of your main party members die in the game, and someone talks to you about it, you should have the option in one of the dialogs to be able to cry and say something like.

Option 1: "Don't worry, I'll be okay."

Option 2: "Good riddance, I hated that chick since day one."

Option 3: *Crying* I can't believe she's gone.

I don't think it should be that hard would it? Just to add the option to be able to laugh or cry within the dialogs?
That and physical affection.

But someone did bring up an excellent point, american culture is usually against displaying physical affection and "touchy feelly" stuff, could that be the reason it's not included?

[0LunarEclipse0]

RangerSG wrote...

baby-bro wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

I might like a little more facial emotion from the PC, perhaps. But I don't really care to get touchy-feely with other characters, other than a romance interest.

That would only work if we could control that facial expression.  We can't have the PC expressing emotions we don't think he should be feeling, let alone expressing.

That's one of the places where Mass Effect goes wrong - it assigns emotions to the PC without consulting the player.  I absolutely do not want that.

I would say it would work in instances like the cutscene at the beginning of the Dark Night of the Couslands (not to give away spoilers here). There's certainly moments like that in thegame where the PC should express a bit more emotion.

But I agree, I simply don't want a whole lot of face-slapping, chest-thumping, fake cheer emotions. A party based RPG isn't that kind of game, period. 

According to who, you?  If bioware doesn't want to add the "ability" to display emotions in the game, than they should drop the entire schtick of having the character suppose to represent you in the first place. Because quite frankly, it doesn't. Just because "you" don't want to display or have emotion in the game doesn't mean it shouldn't. What I'm saying and this doesn't infringe on you in anyway, is that to add emotions for those that want their characters to actually display, well emotions.  Just the option. Therefore, nobody is force. And with that, those that want their characters to be stoic, can be, and those that want their characters to have emotions, also have the option.

Well first of all, the character doesn't represent YOU. The character is an avatar of a role you create in a world. It's not "you," it's "your role." There is a distinction. My characters rarely are played with my personal character traits and motivations. They are their OWN individuals. And they are individuals walking in the world the game has created. Not importing MY sensibilities into that world. So no, it's not representing "me." That isn't role-playing. That's first person action gaming. My character is a unique creation for a unique setting, like and unlike me.

Second, that's simply not what Western RPGs do. They're not based on the pre-set avatar of a JRPG that then has a pre-set/pre-loaded personality already installed. The point of the Western RPG is, just like a tabletop, YOU would supply the appropriate emotion. Not have it force-fed to you by the game. Go down the list of Western RPGs and show me one that does this back-slapping, high-fiving emotional routine. MMOs do emotes, but MMOs are an entirely different beast. It's simply not something Western Single Players RPGs do.

/agree

You should play more tabletop RPGs. This will set you up as to disern the fact of who your charachter is. You are playing a role, I am sorry this universe is not touchy feely. However if tried to be touchy feely in my Mage: The Awakening campaign you would get your head blow off with a shot gun. Sorry the universe is not the way YOU want it. But your character was raised in this universe they should understand what is acceptable and what is not. Also as a final componet you realize you are traveling with hardened warriors.

[Viglin]

And to think, l thought we were Grey Wardens...not babysitters[thou we do spend a LOT of time listening to everyones sob stories].

[DPSSOC]

For me the game already has plenty of emotion but I get that from the character reactions.  For example if a character's telling me the story of how they won a fight with someone and I choose the option; "I feel sorry for him"  That line could be said either sincerely or as a joking remark implying that the opponent had no idea what they were getting into.  The game doesn't tell me how it's said so I get the emotion from how the character reacts.  If they respond with an indignant "They started it" then it's clear that that line was meant sincerely.  Now for me that's enough, but I fully understand others wanting more.

[RangerSG]

baby-bro wrote...

*snip to save space*
The character is suppose to represent you. I'm not sure where you believe otherwise. But bioware themselves have often in the games stated that these characters are suppose to be you in their shoes. Here are quotes from reviewers and others who seem to believe the same way.

"What gets me with Mass Effect 2 is just how well done the story is and how much it makes me feel like I'm that character. When you build your Shepard up (or continue building him or her up if you imported your previous commander), you are that person. When I was choosing whether I would let squadmates shoot foes or if I would tell off space cops who were being jerks, I was making those decisions – it wasn't Drake or some other assigned character; this was a Shepard I had created and I was picking her path. There isn't that connection in Uncharted. Drake is Drake – he makes the call on what he is going to say or do and you're along for the ride. It's a great ride, but it's a linear one. In BioWare's game, you form friendships and then have to put those friends in harm's way and live with the consequences. "

No, the character is not supposed to represent "you." That's never been the way RPG's work. The character is supposed to represent a role you play. That's why it is a role-playing game and not a simulator.

Second, the ME comparison has been brought up again and again. ME is an entirely different beast. It can do more because it takes away the freedom to create your own character. In this it follows the JRPG form. You have 1 of 2 pre-defined characters, both of which have a very similar personality. With that, the developers are free to invest what they think the character's emotions should be, since they know the character better than the player ever will.

But, in essence, every time they tell you what to think, they are taking away your freedom as a role-player in determining how your character should react. That's the trade-off between JRPGs and Western RPGs. Dragon Age is very much a traditional Western RPG. Heavy on story, heavy on squad-based combat, and designed to allow the player to react with the enviroment as they desire to the maximum extent possible within the story.

That's how NWN worked, that's how Baldur's Gate worked, that's how Icewind Dale worked. And the BethSoft RPGs operate on the same paradigm. That's the trade-off between a pre-defined character and a player-made one. It's up to you the player to decide how much emotion you think the PC would or would not show in a given situation. Not for the game to tell you what to think.

[gotthammer]

I think it was rather 'hard' to show the PC showing emotions...considering his 'reactions' (dialogue options) were 'instantaneous' (i.e., the one your PC was talking to reacted/responded immediately after you chose dialogue). I guess that's one of the downsides of your PC not having a voice.

I personally didn't mind, tho'.

Heck, the game, particularly near and at the end, hit me quite hard emotionally (haven't played a game like that in a long while...closest thing I recall is Dreamfall).

[Bibdy]

I like how people are telling other people how they should feel, and act, when playing a video game.



That's neat. The world needs more of that.

[RangerSG]

Bibdy wrote...

I like how people are telling other people how they should feel, and act, when playing a video game.

That's neat. The world needs more of that.

Ahem, for the record, I never indicated I thought how anyone else should act/feel about a game.

I was discussing the distinction between the play-style of two different subtypes of RPGs. It's up to the player which they prefer. I personally have never been a fan of the FF series. But I do think it does what it intends rather well (at least in most installments). I come from the PnP tabletop gaming of the 80s, so I prefer games that feel closer to the old-style RPGs. I'd be perfectly content with a text-based RPG if it had a strong enough story, to be honest.

So DA works fine for me.

[DreGregoire]

I become the character!  LOL Seriously though I can relate to what you are saying, I too have run into some frusteration at the choices given.  I found myself wishing for a few other more emotion related choices myself. However, I feel that Dragon Age is a great and despite the need for some additional choices based on a pc's personality I am very satisfied with the emotional spirit of the game play.  I do however find myself adding conversations to a handwritten journal for my own emotional enjoyment (wish there was a journal to write in in game).  So yes it would be great to have more choices to express how a person is feeling, especially early on in the travels, but I have no problem getting emotionally attached to my heroself and being able to feel emotion despite not having the choices there that I feel my pc is feeling.

I decided early on that I would assume there had been other conversations already.  For, instance when the pc travels with somebody I just assume there were conversations good bad or ugly that I can respond based on what and how I thought the conversations happened.  Basically I love the fact that most of the time in conversations I don't see my pc's face.

Oh, I had a staring contest with somebody but he wouldn't give an inch so I just said let's go and he... grrr... pretended like it was nothing to be stared down by me, pffft! LOL

I still wish I had the choice to spar with Alistair and others in camp so that we could get some constructive emotional therapy.  LOL


possible spoilers removed

Modifié par DreGregoire, 05 février 2010 - 09:20 .

[Sarielle]

RangerSG wrote...

baby-bro wrote...

According to who, you?  If bioware doesn't want to add the "ability" to display emotions in the game, than they should drop the entire schtick of having the character suppose to represent you in the first place.

Well first of all, the character doesn't represent YOU. The character is an avatar of a role you create in a world. It's not "you," it's "your role." There is a distinction. My characters rarely are played with my personal character traits and motivations. They are their OWN individuals. And they are individuals walking in the world the game has created. Not importing MY sensibilities into that world. So no, it's not representing "me." That isn't role-playing. That's first person action gaming. My character is a unique creation for a unique setting, like and unlike me.

Like Ranger said, my characters don't really share my personality much at all. That said, while there were a couple of places I thought a frown or something would be nice, I thought they did pretty well. I'm in the process of uploading some pictures to a new album, so I only have one uploaded that displays emotion, but I have plenty. From shock, to horror, to sort of quiet sadness (which suits my character pefectly, imo). Below, she's just realized she's been betrayed.


I wouldn't mind being able to put a hand on someone's shoulder or something at the very least, though.

EDIT: Play a human noble for a lot of emotional responses in the origin; same with City Elf. Play Return to Ostagar for a very powerful one; and there's a huge range of emotions you see your character go through during the Final Battle.

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Modifié par Sarielle, 05 février 2010 - 10:01 .

[aries1001]

I've finally have bought this game and started playing it some nights ago. I just meant to play for 5-10 minutes; I ended up playing for almost 2½ hours...



I play as Dalish Elf, and I have to say that at some one point I had to make a choice. And after the choice I've made, there were plenty of emotions....



In other instances, I've found there to be plenty of emotions as well. Maybe not the kind of emotions that the OP has been asking for to be in the game, but a raised eyebrow here, a bewildered face there...



And at least, but certainly not least, the back story for the Dalish Elves, the lore behind the Dalish Elves - and the emotional engaging story of the Dalish people that truly is a tragic one.

[joey_mork84]

idk if someone else has already said something about this as i didnt read every single response, but as far as the hand-slapping, back-patting, hugging stuff goes, im sure there is a mod for it. there is one that gives you the option to slap morrigan. its a start lol

Modifié par joey_mork84, 05 février 2010 - 10:27 .

[Sloth Of Doom]

Lakmoots wrote...

I know!!

And another thing... what up with books, man?

How can anyone relate to books when you cannot see the looks on people's faces??

It is just totally wrong...


EPIC FAIL.

Yeah books are lame, I have been staring at this copy of Inferno for hours and it hasn't done ANYTHING interesting.  Stupid book!  And the graphics are lame.

Modifié par Sloth Of Doom, 05 février 2010 - 11:09 .

[SleeplessInSigil]

Mordaedil wrote...

You mean Final Rehash the Plot from the Three First Games Fantasy?

Oh, you mean unite Elves and Dwarves and Wizards and kill a big Dragon?

Modifié par SleeplessInSigil, 05 février 2010 - 11:23 .

[maxernst]

I think that there are times (encountering Hespeth, for example) when it seemed like there could be some dialogue options that suggested more of an emotional response on the part of the PC. I do think that the PC's conversational options do skew toward a rather stoic response to what he sees, much more so than, say, Alistair's.



But as far as the PC representing you--well, you can certainly choose to play a character with a personality that's similar to your own. But really, your character can't truly be you because he's been shaped by completely different life experiences than you. For most western RPG-players, the fun of roleplaying is that you get to step into somebody else's shoes. Good roleplaying is similar to improvisational theatre. If you read through the forums, you'll find that many people play the game more than once in order to try out different characters. The reason many western RPG-players often dislike JRPG's is that they feel stuck with a character they don't choose in a story line they have no control over.