73 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarielle]

baby-bro wrote...
I can go on and on, but bioware themselves, reviewers, and fans often praise this game for being a representation of you. Not your role. Otherwise, if it was just your role, you wouldn't need a character creation slot to allow it to look like you. After all, you can fit your role within anybody if needed be.

Er...you CAN choose to try to make an idealized representation of yourself, I suppose; but I don't. I make someone -- multiple someones, actually -- who don't look like me, and who don't share my personality. I enjoy writing fiction, so while I know what those characters would be angry about, how they would react, etc....they're still not representing me. I'm not as self-effacing, dutiful or as nice as Sarielle, nor as cut-throat, manipulative and amoral as Chloe.

Please don't presume.


-edited for weird formatting-

Modifié par Sarielle, 06 février 2010 - 12:36 .

[Lakmoots]

Sloth Of Doom wrote...

Lakmoots wrote...

I know!!

And another thing... what up with books, man?

How can anyone relate to books when you cannot see the looks on people's faces??

It is just totally wrong...


EPIC FAIL.

Yeah books are lame, I have been staring at this copy of Inferno for hours and it hasn't done ANYTHING interesting.  Stupid book!  And the graphics are lame.

tee-hee...

I think this whole thread is full of WTF?...

Go get an *imagination* or perhaps re-engage your *empathy* engine...

Maybe it needs a pop-up telling you how you should feel?

Or perhaps take game events as say... events in books that do not describe the absolute minutiae of emotion.

If you cannot *imagine* how your character responds facially, or that perhaps they have more dialogue and conversation than the game literally provides...

Then I would say you are a literalist to an almost autistic degreee.

Just *imagine* it...

I mean WTF?

Do you want Shianni to be bruised and naked on the floor? Perhaps at least five minutes of hysterical crying?

How about your character throwing up violently when he sees Broodmother?

Oghren actually wetting himself randomly from long term alchoholism?

This is about as clever as complaining about underwear in the love scenes.

[Vicious]

The imagination argument is pretty much garbage.

Everyone on these boards has imagination. Question is with today's modern gaming technology, should we use it? IMO it's a step backwards, and something best left to where it flourishes - PEN AND PAPER. Baldur's Gate got away with it due to the nature of the game, but DAO didn't and it reflected in professional reviews where people said they felt the protagonist lacked character.

I mean it's not DnD, you do not 'write' the character, nor do you make up anything about him, since all the origins are pre-written. The Human Noble's family is loving. The Dwarf Noble is outmaneuvered and portrayed as trusting or foolish. Etc. Ad nauseam. Imagine their emotions all you want, but the only reason it is there, is because the protagonist is not voiced. Were she/he voiced, it would change everything.

I personally found it jarring when my character in DAO did everything with a blank face. The only time I ever saw his expression change was with the damn portrait slider in the beginning. Other than that, if i picked a snarky dialogue choice, blank face. If I murder knifed a child, nothing.

One thing to 'imagine' how a character talks, another to have him run around with a blank face 24/7, see?


Every OTHER character had emotive faces with their dialogue. The scrunched eyes that make them look sad or about to cry, the angry face Alistair gives me damn near every playthrough, the way Morrigan looks at the character slyly or her mouth works up that half sneer when she gets upset, etc.


So in conclusion, I felt absolutely no connection to the main character unlike everyone else. He was, basically, a blank slate and due to that has the huge weaknesses of every 'blank slate' character. I understand those that say he was supposed to represent 'me.' but to me he represented 'me' about as much as the character in Baldur's Gate 2 represented 'me' and were he voiced and showed emotion towards other characters, I would have identified with him no less, provided the VA did a good enough job.


That said, I certainly hope they decide to tread different ground in future DA offerings.

Modifié par Vicious, 06 février 2010 - 04:01 .

[SleeplessInSigil]

distinguetraces wrote...

I chuckled at the over-the-top Final Fantasy trailer.

I relate to DA's characters just fine, and would be horrified to see Bioware adopt the telenovela-like melodrama of a Square-Enix game.

Now that's some nice double-standards, considering that you see people here decrying games like Oblivion or even Fallout 3, for lacking the faux-Tolkienesque melodrama of a BioWare game. 


In the end, it's all about what you personally prefer, isn't it? and you will justify that however you can.


Anyway, how about something lower-key but still awe-inspiring.

Modifié par SleeplessInSigil, 06 février 2010 - 04:01 .

[AlanC9]

baby-bro wrote...


The character is suppose to represent you. I'm not sure where you believe otherwise. But bioware themselves have often in the games stated that these characters are suppose to be you in their shoes.

How does someone post nonsense like this with a straight face? I don't know about the rest of you, but none of the DA backgrounds have anything to do with my life.

[AlanC9]

SleeplessInSigil wrote...

distinguetraces wrote...

I chuckled at the over-the-top Final Fantasy trailer.

I relate to DA's characters just fine, and would be horrified to see Bioware adopt the telenovela-like melodrama of a Square-Enix game.

Now that's some nice double-standards, considering that you see people here decrying games like Oblivion or even Fallout 3, for lacking the faux-Tolkienesque melodrama of a BioWare game. 


In the end, it's all about what you personally prefer, isn't it? and you will justify that however you can.

So where's the double standard. I see him applying a single standard -- his own.

[AlanC9]

Vicious wrote...
I personally found it jarring when my character in DAO did everything with a blank face. The only time I ever saw his expression change was with the damn portrait slider in the beginning. Other than that, if i picked a snarky dialogue choice, blank face. If I murder knifed a child, nothing.

This isn't strictly true. The PC shows emotions in cutscenes just fine. So the question is why expressions weren't integrated into dialogs. Presumably there's no technical reason why expressions couldn't be bound to the dialog nodes, though I haven't looked at the DA toolset yet and so I don't know if this could have been done wit the current system

Of course, there's a conceptual issue with doing it. Without a major rewrite, the PC's always going to have to start with a neutral expression. Otherwise, the PC will be emoting something the player didn't want him to emote before the player has a chance to control his expression

[DraconisCombine]

* Alistair: Don't you ever talk? You know, make polite conversation just to put people at ease?



* Sten: You mean that I should remark upon the weather before I cut off a man's head?



* Alistair: ... Nevermind.



This sums up quite a bit!LOL!Anyways my party evokes emotions...they evoke emotions from me the player.The quote above made me laugh.Now if thats not emotionally interaction...well im not quite sure what is.

The interaction thats a few posters are talking about is at least 5 to 10 years away.Im thinking Avatar type gameplay here.

[bconk55]

Lakmoots wrote...

I know!!

And another thing... what up with books, man?

How can anyone relate to books when you cannot see the looks on people's faces??

It is just totally wrong...


EPIC FAIL.

Do you read books? There is generally a great amount of time devoted to describing the looks on people's faces and the emotions they are feeling. Analogies are hard!

[bconk55]

AuraofMana wrote...

No offense, but Final Fantasy had more emotion in their trailer than the entire dragon age game.

I can't believed you just tried to compare Dragon Age with Final Fantasy. This isn't some country with 2 cities where teenagers with spiky hair go on and save the world with love and a sword bigger than the wielder. Dragon Age is a DARK FANTASY, display of emotion is rare because the color, tone, and music show the grim nature of the world. When you do a dark fantasy, displaying emotion makes the game more lively. When you show minimum emotions, it makes the experience more grim.

Huh? A lack of emotion shows a disconnect from the grim setting. It shows apathy, not "grim" emotions like anger, desperation, frustration, etc. Also realize that the juxtapostion of opposing ideas strengthens both. Having the PC smile rarely throughout the game would be a far larger "grim" impact than the PC never smiling at all.

[bconk55]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

I might like a little more facial emotion from the PC, perhaps. But I don't really care to get touchy-feely with other characters, other than a romance interest.

That would only work if we could control that facial expression.  We can't have the PC expressing emotions we don't think he should be feeling, let alone expressing.

That's one of the places where Mass Effect goes wrong - it assigns emotions to the PC without consulting the player.  I absolutely do not want that.

This already occurs, it's just easier to ignore when the PC doesn't emote. If you choose a reply that is meant to be taken sincerely, the NPCs react based on that intention, regardless of you pretending in your head that it was sarcastic. Adding an appropriate facial expression doesn't change that, it just makes it harder to pretend a choice says something it doesn't, which is nonsensical to begin with.

[Realmzmaster]

One of the big differences in jprgs and wrpgs is linearity. Jrpgs follow a more linear path than wrpgs. Your character is set in a jrpg. Wrpgs allow you to create your main character, some allow you to create your whole party. What jrpg allows this action? Also once you leave Flemeth's hut you can go just about any where on the map. Which jrpg allows this to happen? It is easy to include emotion and dialogue if you know what characters will be in the party. In jrpgs you know the party composition, because the story is written that you pick them up in a certain order.

The programming in DA:O has to check who is in the party for certain background conversations to happen. Now try to throw emotions in on top of this. The programming goes from tough to nightmare mode.

Also when should your PC react? You might run upon a situation where you think an emotional response is warranted. My PC runs up upon the same situation and says big deal. How is the developer going to know when an emotional response is warranted, since they are going to look at the situation from their point of view and even they may not agree among themselves. DA:O has some moments like when you give Alistair his mother's locket. But that is a set cutscene which happens no matter what origin your PC choses. You simply put in the PC. Alistair (or any other companion) can smile or laugh because the developers have complete control over their expressions.

Since you are given complete control over your PC's appearance it becomes more difficult to show facial expressions the futher away from the initial model you are. It is easier to keep a stoic look on the PC.

It is easy to do emotional situations with set charcters. The PC is not a set character.

On a side not: Some people see their charcters as an extension of themselves. Other role play different characters, some which are complete opposites to themselves. Yes, Bioware and EA say that you become the character. Basically that marketing hype. The same as saying that DA:O is the spiritual successor to BG2. It is there to help sale the game.

IMHO, the PC is not me. I roleplay a dwarf noble. I am not a dwarf noble. I roleplay the character. I try to think the way the character would think given the situation.

For example the elf or dwarf meets King Cailan. Do you think the elf or dwarf really gives a damn about him? But if I am playing a human noble it is different. He is my King. My PC may still think he is an ass, but I will be more polite about it. As an elf or dwarf I do not have to be. So I roleplay the character, the character does not roleplay me. But, YMMV.

[Mlai00]

All the monsters in this game should be invisible. hitchcock always said that the greatest fears are those that are unseen. We should all use our vast fertile Western imaginations to imagine all the best dragons and darkspawns.

[Asurablade]

AuraofMana wrote...

No offense, but Final Fantasy had more emotion in their trailer than the entire dragon age game.

I can't believed you just tried to compare Dragon Age with Final Fantasy. This isn't some country with 2 cities where teenagers with spiky hair go on and save the world with love and a sword bigger than the wielder. Dragon Age is a DARK FANTASY, display of emotion is rare because the color, tone, and music show the grim nature of the world. When you do a dark fantasy, displaying emotion makes the game more lively. When you show minimum emotions, it makes the experience more grim.

If only Dragon Age actually had good music ...

[SleeplessInSigil]

Asurablade wrote...

If only Dragon Age actually had good music ...

It does. Most of it though, is not quite as memorable as say Fallout 3's even though they were both composed by the same person. Maybe that was the intent, but I found DA's combat music to be more grating than complementing the action.

[MusukoYo]

I think that the lack of expressiveness of the PC is largely due to technical and logistical limitations.

There are six different models, three races and two sexes, that have to be accounted for in 3D space (in terms of height, girth and length of torso/limbs, and so forth). That means up to six different animations for any scene that involves touching, hugging, or otherwise physically interacting with another character in any meaningful way. Now multiply that by every such option for every conversation with every character in a game with such a huge and variable cast, and you can see why the animations can be perfunctory at times. I can't be the only one who's noticed that they've recycled animations as much as possible, possibly because of time constraints (i.e., female dwarves seem to mysteriously gain several feet in height to be able to kiss their romantic interest, and male elves share female Gray Wardens' animation for sexy time with Zevran).

I wonder, though, if BioWare has considered the use of motion capture technology for their games... if not for the player character, then maybe for NPCs. I heard it was quite expensive, but the results speak for themselves (Avatar, anyone?). Even an older game like DMC3 has characters with extremely fluid movements and natural body language because they had real actors as bases:



Corny as the game was, I couldn't help but notice (and appreciate) how naturally the characters moved in spite of the PS2-caliber graphics. Resident Evil 5 also used motion capture to great effect:



I'm sure others can post awesome examples of motion capture used in video games. =D

[Leonia]

Lakmoots wrote...

I know!!

And another thing... what up with books, man?

How can anyone relate to books when you cannot see the looks on people's faces??

It is just totally wrong...


EPIC FAIL.

This made me chuckle

I don't know about some people, but Dragon Age invokes HEAPS of emotions in me and I often find myself replaying scenes in my head, pretending my character could say anything they wanted in any given situation. Maybe that makes me weird or something, but the last game to get much reaction out of me like this was probably Xenosaga 3 'cause that ending made me cry  

[Mrfabiola]

Is it really to hard to imagine your character is doing this? Its what ive been doing, and i am enjoying the game. I do not think my character is emotionless. Stop expecting the game to do everything for you, I play bioware games like a interactive book. I see the world they want me to see, and i make the choices and make up the emotions for my character...but thats me

[MS3825]

My 2 step advice advice:

1.) Put a mirror next to your screen so you can see your own reaction.

2.) Stop whining about minor details.



The main character has shown emotions in dialogue throughout the game. No the character isn't you, if only I could insert the sound of a baby cry here to mock those of you without imagination, but you can give a character whatever personality you want for them even if they don't do/say exactly what you want. I find Biowares dialogue options very good as opposed to say when NWN 2 was done by someone else and I always felt like I was settling for the closest thing.

[LolaRuns]

Going back to the very first point, I think whether or not that was the intention, to me it *sounds* like what you are looking for is something like the way The Sims interact (slap, jab, hug, tease). Though I do get the point about emotion etc I just don't think that something like that would really be the solution because I don't see how that would really fit the mood of DAO.

If you think, a lot of JRPG star very young, teenager-ish age characters. And you usually have some quirky/dorky/hug everybody characters (often young girls). In DAO, not even the nicest and quirkiest one Leiliana is like that. And most characters would probably take active offense to being hugged. The kind of friendly physical interaction, as some people mentioned, would make a lot more sense with characters in the backstory (siblings, parents, childhood friends) rather than with battle mates. If you look at the dialogs you have, even if you befriend or romance somebody, there's usually always a huge focus on battle along the lines of dialogs ending with "ok, now that the mushy stuff is over with, let's go and chop up some more heads".

One also shouldn't forget that the entire events of DAO1 are supposed to take play over what, a week? A month the most maybe? You don't really know most of these people all that long. There is only very few moments where I think something like hugging would make a lot of sense (at the very end, before the big battle) and even there only with very few characters and that also depending on how you played your character.

But yes, they could have a bit more imaginations regarding the interactions you have with people, especially in a romance. Or add some laid back options like "have beer with".

Modifié par LolaRuns, 08 février 2010 - 08:47 .

[nos_astra]

The events of DAO take over a year - 12 to 24 months are common belief. And that's still quite short for a Blight, or so I heard.





*** Spoilerish! ***





I also want to add that emotions can be quite tricky, especially if you think your PC is your avatar. I see players being royally pissed by the way one of the romance options can play out. It's just that only one origin has an actual reason to be surprised - at least much less than the player.

[Spitz6860]

btw, the super exaggerated and silly facial impression doesn't help either, the most obvious occasion i can think of right now is the beginning of the mage origin and when you see Cailen on the cross.

[Sabriana]

***************************Contains origin spoilers, although minor ones *****************************




My PCs react differently to the same thing(s) in game. For example, my HNF rogue is royally p'oed at Alistair when she answers a certain question of his, boy is she upset.

My HNF warrior is shocked to hear that same thing, not angry, but sad that he forgot she is suffering too.

My human mage girl is angry at Jowan for at the end of the origin, in another play-through she is sad and fearful . Same scenario different reactions from different PCs.

To give them emotions would nix that for me. I stare at the back of their heads most of the time anyways, and where emotions are warranted the PC does show them. All my PCs stumble backward a few steps when seeing what awaits them in the Orzammar roads, right before moving on, and that's an appropriate reaction no matter how the PC developed during the game. I doubt anyone would react blase or indifferent when seeing that you-know-what.
Other than that, I don't want a voiced PC, nor do I want to be told what kind of emotion my PC should have.

Edited for clarity (I hope)

Modifié par Sabriana, 08 février 2010 - 11:13 .