165 réponses à ce sujet

[NINJ4 R4BBID]

MarauderESP wrote...

all the classes have no sense since no matter what u have, u have to pass for the same corridor take cover on the same crates, same interaction whit the same thing in the same way, start a lvl (yes a lvl) from a to b no other options, the only diference is how u kill the bad guys.....etc it means tps with little rpg elements, sure u can chose if u do the game for the good side or the bad side (good story tough).....

As much as i recall ME1 was not very different in this regard, the only place that i remember, that had alternate routes was Virmire and even then difference was minimal. In this regard, in ME2 every location atleast feels different (all the locations have a distinctive character to them). And don't get me started on some of the missions in ME2 compared to ME1 (they are not all about run and gun as it was in ME1)!

[Killian Kalthorne]

I do consider the RE series of games as Action RPGs.

[lv427]

In PnP RPG's every GM has a different style and puts emphasis on different things. Some like quick and dirty combat, others turn combat into a numbers grind that can make a minor confrontation last hours. Some GM's care about inventory management and others don't. They're all running RPG's, just different styles. I don't see why there can't be room for style choice in an RPG when it comes to video games. I like that fact that ME2 is taking a different approach. It's faster paced and fits the story better.

[MarauderESP]

NINJ4 R4BBID wrote...

MarauderESP wrote...

all the classes have no sense since no matter what u have, u have to pass for the same corridor take cover on the same crates, same interaction whit the same thing in the same way, start a lvl (yes a lvl) from a to b no other options, the only diference is how u kill the bad guys.....etc it means tps with little rpg elements, sure u can chose if u do the game for the good side or the bad side (good story tough).....

As much as i recall ME1 was not very different in this regard, the only place that i remember, that had alternate routes was Virmire and even then difference was minimal. In this regard, in ME2 every location atleast feels different (all the locations have a distinctive character to them). And don't get me started on some of the missions in ME2 compared to ME1 (they are not all about run and gun as it was in ME1)!

hell no , i´m just saying that it fells people think that a dialoge wheel is what define a rpg, and they based more the in the action part while reduce or streamlined the rpg part, (loot system was a mess in ME1, but hell fix it dont wipe it), they down from 1000000 tipes of pistols to 3????????? WTF? that is what i mean find a 50/50 TPS/RPG

[BioChair]

Deltateam Elcor wrote...

Loot is a good fun reward system, at the moment we get no rewards.

How about amazing character interaction and development, is that not a reward? How about being brought back from the dead and given a state of the art ship? No reward there? How about the research? All rewards. Im glad the dungeon crawler/loot has been toned down in this game, it means I can focus on my ROLE in saving humanity.

Although I could well be wrong, maybe hundreds of weapons that look/sound exactly the same filling my never ending space pockets would help me slip into that role a bit better.

[NINJ4 R4BBID]

MarauderESP wrote...

NINJ4 R4BBID wrote...

MarauderESP wrote...

all the classes have no sense since no matter what u have, u have to pass for the same corridor take cover on the same crates, same interaction whit the same thing in the same way, start a lvl (yes a lvl) from a to b no other options, the only diference is how u kill the bad guys.....etc it means tps with little rpg elements, sure u can chose if u do the game for the good side or the bad side (good story tough).....

As much as i recall ME1 was not very different in this regard, the only place that i remember, that had alternate routes was Virmire and even then difference was minimal. In this regard, in ME2 every location atleast feels different (all the locations have a distinctive character to them). And don't get me started on some of the missions in ME2 compared to ME1 (they are not all about run and gun as it was in ME1)!

hell no , i´m just saying that it fells people think that a dialoge wheel is what define a rpg, and they based more the in the action part while reduce or streamlined the rpg part, (loot system was a mess in ME1, but hell fix it dont wipe it), they down from 1000000 tipes of pistols to 3????????? WTF? that is what i mean find a 50/50 TPS/RPG

I think there is nothing wrong with the new system... problem is the lack of content (i think they planned to expand the variety with DLC, as it can be seen with all the DLC guns and armor parts [Zaeed, Collectors, Terminus, Dr. Pepper]).
Personaly i would love to see new armor parts for my N7 armor (as free or realy cheap DLC) and few new Heavy Pistols would be good! 

p.s. And there is loot in ME2 it's just not so common (it's more rare and meaningful), "Geth Pulse Rifle", "M-451 Firestorm" anyone!?

Modifié par NINJ4 R4BBID, 05 février 2010 - 03:13 .

[Selvec_Darkon]

Items an thus customization of a character is a core component of an RPG. Even a Shooter/RPG it's still a core component. Remove it, and you lose some of the RPG fans from the mix your trying to make. Bioware should know this by now, they have made thousands of RPG's. They should be aware of what Core components of an RPG are needed for it to maintain it's maintstream RPG fans.

[haberman13]

BioChair wrote...

Deltateam Elcor wrote...

Loot is a good fun reward system, at the moment we get no rewards.

How about amazing character interaction and development, is that not a reward? How about being brought back from the dead and given a state of the art ship? No reward there? How about the research? All rewards. Im glad the dungeon crawler/loot has been toned down in this game, it means I can focus on my ROLE in saving humanity.

Although I could well be wrong, maybe hundreds of weapons that look/sound exactly the same filling my never ending space pockets would help me slip into that role a bit better.

Fine point, but the development you speak of is engrained in the story, and not really an option; you have to do it everytime you play ME2 with little to no variation.  The upgrade system is simply a neutered version of a loot/gear/stat system.

[Ahglock]

loot is something typically associated with RPGs but it is not what makes a RPG. What makes a RPG is primarily one thing, you play a roll and the roll you play determines your success in your activities not your player skill. The dialogue wheel by itself has nothing to do with an RPG, that is just story telling hour which any game can have if they want. But the ability to make renegade or paragon choices is based on your renegade/paragon level is to some degree. Unfortunately if you want this to be an RPG that is the majority of the RPG elements right there. Minigames are personal skill(though there are some character improvements to make them easier) 3rd person shooting is player skill though again you can improve your character to make it easier. But the improvements are no different than finding a better gun later on in Halo, it is really your skill that determines success, the gun just makes it easier.



I don't see what the problem is. It is not a RPG, that is fairly clear. But how does that in any way determine if it is a good game or not. RPG is just a genre not a definition of good. There can be good RPGs and bad RPGs, and plenty of games that fall outside the RPG genre can be good as well.

[NINJ4 R4BBID]

Selvec_Darkon wrote...

Items an thus customization of a character is a core component of an RPG. Even a Shooter/RPG it's still a core component. Remove it, and you lose some of the RPG fans from the mix your trying to make. Bioware should know this by now, they have made thousands of RPG's. They should be aware of what Core components of an RPG are needed for it to maintain it's maintstream RPG fans.

All the weapons in ME2 are extremely different (granted there is the lack of variety we could use more)...

Collector Assault Rifle (no spread, high recoil, medicore ammo capacity)
Geth Pulse Rifle (high fire rate, high ammo capacity, medicore fire power)
M-76 Revenant (high fire power, high ammo capacity, high spread/ recoil)
etc...

There is variety (would'nt hurt to have more)... variety is more meaningful than number crunching (HMWA VII / VIII / IX / X)!

[ralphfromdk]

i think that i've come up with a decent mix of the ME1 and 2 loot n gear systems... keep the weapon lockers in the armory from number 2, but make it so that you can buy parts from vendors... not just upgrades.. specific parts..

like... "okay.. now you bought 3 different types of barrels for your assault rifle... wich one do you want to use: good aim, good cooling or something in the middle? okay.. now how about the ammo.. heavy ammo means less shots per clip and faster overheat, but more damage..." 

and so on.. and maybe missions where you stumble into a smugglers base, and keep some of the crates...

"oh look at this fine stuff we found commander... new type of sniperrifles.. oh.. and some different scopes to... "

then it wouldn't matter if we only had 2 or 3 different guns in every categori, as long as we could do more stuff with them... kinda makes sense to.. we have this armory.. let's start costumising that load out

and of course... more armor parts...

so.. to sum up what i said xD
more stuff you can do with your gear, but still only at the ship, where it makes sense

Modifié par ralphfromdk, 05 février 2010 - 03:39 .

[NINJ4 R4BBID]

ralphfromdk wrote...

i think that i've come up with a decent mix of the ME1 and 2 loot n gear systems... keep the weapon lockers in the armory from number 2, but make it so that you can buy parts from vendors... not just upgrades.. specific parts..

like... "okay.. now you bought 3 different types of barrels for your assault rifle... wich one do you want to use: good aim, good cooling or something in the middle? okay.. now how about the ammo.. heavy ammo means less shots per clip and faster overheat, but more damage..." 

and so on.. and maybe missions where you stumble into a smugglers base, and keep some of the crates...

"oh look at this fine stuff we found commander... new type of sniperrifles.. oh.. and some different scopes to... "

then it wouldn't matter if we only had 2 or 3 different guns in every categori, as long as we could do more stuff with them... kinda makes sense to.. we have this armory.. let's start customising that load out

and of course... more armor parts...

so.. to sum up what i said xD
more stuff you can do with your gear, but still only at the ship, where it makes sense

I like the idea of weapon mods, something like they did with N7 armor in ME2, i would love the mix of ME2 weapon inventory + some of ME1 weapon modding, but nothing extreme just some tweaking to personalize weapons).

[FlintlockJazz]

I agree with the OP, and to show the support I have called in the Normandy for an immediate extraction to get him safely out of here before the flaming gets him!

[FlintlockJazz]

Ahglock wrote...

loot is something typically associated with RPGs but it is not what makes a RPG. What makes a RPG is primarily one thing, you play a roll and the roll you play determines your success in your activities not your player skill. The dialogue wheel by itself has nothing to do with an RPG, that is just story telling hour which any game can have if they want. But the ability to make renegade or paragon choices is based on your renegade/paragon level is to some degree. Unfortunately if you want this to be an RPG that is the majority of the RPG elements right there. Minigames are personal skill(though there are some character improvements to make them easier) 3rd person shooting is player skill though again you can improve your character to make it easier. But the improvements are no different than finding a better gun later on in Halo, it is really your skill that determines success, the gun just makes it easier.

I don't see what the problem is. It is not a RPG, that is fairly clear. But how does that in any way determine if it is a good game or not. RPG is just a genre not a definition of good. There can be good RPGs and bad RPGs, and plenty of games that fall outside the RPG genre can be good as well.

I agree with what you say about loot, but I must respectfully disagree about the dialogue wheel.  Playing the role of your character means making the decisions and acting as your character, of which talking is one, you can only make choices of what to say in CRPGs due to the impossibility of letting you say anything you want, but it's one of the closest aspects of roleplay you can get to in my opinion, since you are choosing what your character would say, taking on his role. 

Also, stats are there to help you portray that role, and if a system chooses to allow player skill to affect the outcome that too is merely another method to achieve this.  If you were to strip all the conversations and choices out of DA:O you would end up with just a real-time tactical game.

Of course, the main problem I think people are having is that everyone's concept of roleplay varies drastically, for some it actually is all about the loot and character interaction is even unwanted, while for others the combat is what it's all about and building the perfect character, and that is why ME2 has such a diverse response to it's RPG elements: it meets some people's expectations of an RPG but not others, and so everything I just said earlier is just my own opinions based on my own style of RP.   Once everyone accepts my view of RP and accept it's all about the role the better!

[Darth Obvious]

RPG's do NOT have to have excessive loot systems. As I have said many times, a lot of us who play genuine pen-and-paper RPG's would never dream of dealing with a clunky and time-consuming loot system.



And the fact is that ME2 is just as much of an RPG as any of these earlier Bioware games, and I for one am glad that they got rid of the "inventory tetris" part of the game. Leaves me more time to to actually play the role of Shepard and get on with the story.

[skjdfghlskdfhkue]

Deltateam Elcor wrote...

Loot is a good fun reward system, at the moment we get no rewards.

I'd say that cool cinematics and dialogs function as rewards in ME2. Also in a more classic sense there's upgrades.

[Fujin05]

ralphfromdk wrote...

this is a counter rant to all those people who say that this game is less of an rpg because it lacks loot and stuff like that...

come on.. seriously..? is that all a rpg is to you..? 
"screw the storie and me choosing the fate of all life as we know it, i just want to look through crates for left over armor and guns!!" 

that's not what rpgs are about.. apparently people only feel that there is progression if they get new stuff...
what about the storie evolving..? did you forget that what the name means... you play... a role... in a game...
hence "role- playing- game"
they didn't call it a "grab a bag and go loot the aliens you kill" game...

it's the future god damn it.... machines are supposed to do all this weapons stuff for you.. you don't go looting enemies unless you are a scrap salesman.. you're a soldier.. here's some gear, now go kill stuff with it...

to me it makes more sense that shepard only has to buy research for the gear he/she already has... you're supposed to be this top trained soldier, with state of the art guns and armor (untill they make improvements in a lab somewhere) and that's what you use you're funding on.. you are working for a "private" company now..

it doesn't make sense to go "hold up guys.. i need to check these here Geth for stuff"
"oh wow.. look at this !!! i found a new armor.. let me put it on out here in the vacume"...
"hey.. look at this.. i found a weapon mod on the ground... let me just put it into my gun and see what happens"

and yes i know there's the classic "but it's just a game, it doesn't have to make sense"... but i like the things they did.. they make sense...




and don't get me started on the Mako... every action game (yes ME is an action-rpg) has this half-arsed driving part, that really isn't all that good.. i'm glad they got rid of it...

 

I'd have no prob with changin' armor and weapon/mods in the Normandy. And I also wouldn't have a problem with the shops. IF YOU COULD ACTUALLY BUY SOMETHING except ****ty 5% upgrades. I don't even care about the stats in ME2. I just took all the parts that looked best IMO.

But in the end: Yes I do miss looting. And actuall buying! 

Take Care.

[OnayiaBlue]

Well i really don't miss the looting but I do wish their was more things to buy or more use for the resources. I think someone mentioned they should allow you customize your guns like you do armors. That would be a good idea and they should add something like that to ME3. For now I thinl DLC wise they just need to add more armor parts that effect stats and how it looks. Defiantly some light or medium style armor parts. And keep adding lots more guns.



Fact is except for finding lots of mods I really don't feel the different enemies we fight would have too many different guns like they made it seem in ME1. Though they do need to add customizing the armor of your squad and not another re color. Doesn't need to be to extensive for them but they should have different armor that effect their stats and changes their appearance more than a texture job.

[xurukk]

Thank WoW and its army of 'loot zombies' that think RPG progression = chasing the dangling loot carrot on a stick in front of them.

[yowave]

Loot = Crappy over used system!

If you want a reward go get a cookie

[OnayiaBlue]

I'm glad I base most of my opinions on rpg's on an old adventure game series Quest for Glory. I love that game. Can hardly find anything that could match the gameplay of that game.

[AGogley]

I like some of what they did. Most of the loot you get is pretty useless. But some of the character mechanics are really bad.



1.) Instead of charisma, you just have to act like a paragon to get paragon options. Usually a characters ability to convince others is based on charisma or some trait that allows you to bully them.



2.) No options to choose individual attributes which, in most RPGs, affect how well one can use their secondary skills, e.g., intelligence would affect how well you can hack. This means you can do pretty much everything well in the game.



3.) Secondary power learning is a cool idea, but it's not limited by class. So if I'm not a biotic I can suddenly have a biotic power. In ME1, there were real advantages to being a pure class. In ME2, the best class is a soldier who then picks up a biotic power (IMHO).



4.) I like that you have to pay for fuel....but why do I have to fly the ship manually?



5.) Probes and scanning? Whose idea was this? It's much worse than using the vehicle in ME1.



6.) There's nothing really to buy in the stores except upgrades. You can't have different armor to compliment your away teams. The upgrade system/research is ok..but you don't have enough money to get everything even if you do all the missions.



7.) No boss armor or weapons?



8.) I thought the weapon system in KOTOR for lightsabers was pretty good. Change the color, change the dynamics but nothing too complicated.

[PSUHammer]

Some people don't understand what RPG means. It's role playing. The only thing that really denotes an RPG is you assuming the role of a character and deciding what they do. This can involve combat, looting, level ups, etc, but none of those are needed for the game to be an RPG by definition....

ME1 and ME2 are as RPG as you can get. They just have some different game mechanics.  Whether or not you LIKE some of those mechanics is besides the point.  The games are still RPG's. 

Modifié par Hammer6767, 05 février 2010 - 06:04 .

[Veex]

For some people, yes, RPGs are about a large inventory of items and an array of skill choices however inconsequential many of those options may be.

[Mezinger]

Loot is just a contributor to a broader RPG core pillar.... Character Progression, which partially is the idea that you start out as less powerful and become more powerful / influential as the game goes on... this is a relative slider... so you can be pretty powerful to start with but become even more so as the story progresses. The changes they made to the Loot, Inventory System, XP mechanics, Skill System, Armour types etc etc. all have a negative impact on Character Progression mechanics which does in fact make ME2 less of an RPG than ME1.