165 réponses à ce sujet

[TuringPoint]

Pfeh. Loot in ME 1 was like collecting stickers on assignments. Fun to look at and consider a moment, and then you realize it was just a sticker and the real value was completing the assignment well.

Or you don't, and you just decide stickers were the whole point of school, and thus most of your value in education is based on your desire to get stickers. Cheers for that!

Which tacky, plasticky gun will I use today?  How much omni-gel am I going to collect in an hour of gameplay?  When will I get to level 55 and never have to worry about loot again, but have to slog through it anyway?

Modifié par Alocormin, 06 février 2010 - 08:53 .

[Ahglock]

AGogley wrote...

Grey Poupon, there is a difference between the dictionary definition of an RPG and the traditional understanding of what makes an RPG.  It's just like cooking. 

I'm not willing to say ME2 is not an RPG, but many of the elements are most certiainly muted.  The difference between a level 10 character and a level 40 character is huge in most RPGs.  Not so much in ME2 because paragon/renegade choices control your ability to convince/bully people rather than attrributes or learned skills and your "feats" or "skills" are not at all controlled by your natural abilities (since you have none). Most of the "feats" or "skills" are mostly ammo related (especially true with soldier class).  You can easily level up your most important feats very early and there are no additional feats, skills, or abilities to be learned (Except the one additional power that everyone can get if they research it). 
In other words, you game progression is mostly a result of game choices you make.  That's good.  But your character improves very little, changes very little with the progression of the game.  That's an expectation in most RPGs even if you don't find it in your dictionary.

I would say the dictionary definition is the traditional understanding of RPGs.  Sure people can try to redifine it and change it, but that does not change what an RPG is.  I think a lot of people played CRPG X and there was loot and there was customization so they thought RPG=loot and customization.  But that is like saying after playing Super Mario Brothers hey its a platform game, platform games involve plumbers, clearly plimbers is what makes a game a platform game. 

I also thing a problem is too many people want to call other things RPGs because they like the game and they want it to be a RPG.  They are RPG fans, and they like to think RPGs are a more elite form of gaming.  So they want games they like to be RPGs.  Gaming is gaming you play games to be entertained, who cares what type of game it is if you are entertained.  I like playing some table top RPGs, like shadowrun, hero, mechwarrior etc.  But I also had a blast playing some  board games the other week Dominion and Space Trucker aren't lesser forms of gaming, they like Shadowrun are just fun games. 

ME2 is a good game, people should not get hung up on what genre it fits or genres it stradles.  The only thing that matters is if it is fun and did you get your moneys worth.  I know I am having fun, and I have got a fantastic return on my spending.  Entertained for 40+ hours for $60, what other entertainment is that great of a deal. 

[Ahglock]

Youmu wrote...

AGogley wrote...

3.) Secondary power learning is a cool idea, but it's not limited by class. So if I'm not a biotic I can suddenly have a biotic power. In ME1, there were real advantages to being a pure class. In ME2, the best class is a soldier who then picks up a biotic power (IMHO).

But ME1 did the exact same thing? Get achievements, get bonus powers for next playthrough/new chara. I've always picked Singularity in it for no matter the class since it's rather OP in ME1. Or then pick Sniper Rifles for my Adept..

True, and I thought it was kind of silly.  But you get them during the game in ME2, you do not have to wait for the next playthrough.  The difference is small but in the ME1 only model you can say Sheapard always has been biotic he got his L3 implant as a kid and could drop singurity like no ones business, but being a soldier by trade he has not trained enough to pick up the other adept style abilities.  In ME2 you wave a magic wand and poof now you had element 0 introduced to you whiel you were in the womb.  ME1 that is the way you always were story wise, ME2 inviolves time travel and paradoxes.  

[Nastrod]

OMG I am not walking around with 60 guns, 45 sets of armor, 70 types of ammo ( almost all that gear is the same also ), strapped to my back that I will never use so now it is not a RPG at all. A Krogan could not carry all that useless stuff around. I am very glad it was streamlined and looting dead bodies does not make a game a rpg.

Modifié par Nastrod, 06 février 2010 - 09:34 .

[Adeph]

Why can we not say Mass effect 2 is a hybrid game and leave at that?



People say it's not an RPG because it doesn't have X, Y and Z. O.K fair enough but it is also clearly more than just a TPS, surely even the most ardent of the detractors will admit that Mass Effect is a very different beast to Gears Of War.



It has as much in common with RPGs as it does games like gears of War and isn't that what Bioware set out to do anyway? take parts from both genres and fuse them together into a cinematic saga spanning 3 games.



maybe we should agree on a new term to describe the Mass Effect games? Personally I'm happy with the term 'Awesome' It sums up both games for me pretty well ;p

[Kalfear]

ralphfromdk wrote...

so.. are RPGs all about loot now..? and ME2 isn't one because you can't...
 

yeah thats it, in the 1000s of posts outlining why they didnt like the game or what their concerns were, this is what shooter fans should take away!



(sighs) Seriously Bioware, how many of these open flame posts like the OP do we need on the forums, its obvious he didnt read a single post and just flaming to start a arguement!

[ralphfromdk]

Kalfear wrote...

ralphfromdk wrote...

so.. are RPGs all about loot now..? and ME2 isn't one because you can't...?
 

yeah thats it, in the 1000s of posts outlining why they didnt like the game or what their concerns were, this is what shooter fans should take away!



(sighs) Seriously Bioware, how many of these open flame posts like the OP do we need on the forums, its obvious he didnt read a single post and just flaming to start a arguement!

erm.. i think YOU'RE the one who didn't read any posts.. at least not mine.. i'm defending the streamlining the did with the gear you have... i'm not flaming bioware at all.. i still love those guys very much

[PSUHammer]

WillieStyle wrote...

This in a nutshell encapsulates the sheer irrationality of the "RPG elements" crowd.
Higher level cap?  You do realize the number 60 was completely arbitrary right?
Instead of having a system where each skill point improved your abilites by 1% and you got a new version of the ability every 4 points, they could have just consolidated it so that each skill points improves your abilities by 4% and you get a new version o fthe ability every level. There you go, level cap drops from 60 to 20-30 but absolutely nothing would be different as far as gameplay is concerned. 

In fact, gameplay is richer in ME2 if you're  a soldier or infiltrator because the skills actually alter gameplay a great deal more. 

I find the "RPG elements" crowd utterly bizzare.

As a long time RPG'er...all the way back to the text based Bard's Tale games, I have to completely agree here.  I say get over it and enjoy the games for what they are.  And in this case, it's one of the best series I have ever played.  Does it have to play just like the old "Gold Box" D&D games to be an enjoyable game?  Of course not.

[PSUHammer]

Nastrod wrote...

OMG I am not walking around with 60 guns, 45 sets of armor, 70 types of ammo ( almost all that gear is the same also ), strapped to my back that I will never use so now it is not a RPG at all. A Krogan could not carry all that useless stuff around. I am very glad it was streamlined and looting dead bodies does not make a game a rpg.

Wait a minute!!!  You mean you didn't have your ultimate, magic backpack that could carry 100 tons of gear just for you to swap out in the middle of combat on a dime???  There goes the realism!!!!  LOL!

I always found this part of RPG's absurd anyway.  The way ME2 shows you the weapons you are carrying on your back is way more realistic.

On another note...how many people considered Diablo and it's clones an RPG?  A lot.  And I think that game was no where close to what defines an RPG.

Modifié par Hammer6767, 06 février 2010 - 03:13 .

[artiss68w]

Hammer6767 wrote...

On another note...how many people considered Diablo and it's clones an RPG?  A lot.  And I think that game was no where close to what defines an RPG.

Oooo, that's a can of worms.

[PSUHammer]

artiss68w wrote...

Hammer6767 wrote...

On another note...how many people considered Diablo and it's clones an RPG?  A lot.  And I think that game was no where close to what defines an RPG.

Oooo, that's a can of worms.

Not at all...it was purely an action game/loot fest.  There was some flimsy story, but no ROLE PLAYING.  You just fought hoards of monsters in a fairly linear manner.  There was no decision making or story branching.  I am not saying I didn't like it...I did.  I spent countless hours with it.  BUT, it wasn't anything like the Gold Box D&D games which were much more of a traditional RPG type game.

Bioware has perfected the branching storylines of RPG games.  They remind me of the old "Choose your own adventure" books.

[Schneidend]

Can of worms, indeed. If you don't consider Diablo 1 & 2 and Mass Effect 2 RPG's, then I'm afraid there is something wrong with your definition. If stats, equipment choices, upgrading, and character development (game mechanic sense) make it a RPG, then the above three games have all of those. If it's a strong story, a sweeping narrative, and (literary) character development that make a game a RPG to you, then Mass Effect 2, at least, certainly has that.



By either definition (the latter of which I really don't agree with at all, btw), the game is invariably a RPG. I don't see how it can somehow not be something that it shares all the qualities thereof. If it walks like a RPG, quacks like a RPG, and looks like a RPG, then how can it not be a RPG? Now that the game's already out, the decryers of the supposed lack of RPG elements are just as baseless and rhetorical as they ever were. Now, we just happen to have proof they're wrong, and they can't seem to cope.

[Evil Johnny 666]

There was no looting in ME1, weapons armor and mods (no items per se) magically appeared in your equip screen (there were no inventory system either).

[PSUHammer]

Diablo and Diablo 2 were action games with RPG features (stats, experience). ME2 is much closer to what a traditional RPG is as you control your character's destiny through choices.



A linear game like Torchlight or Diablo does not constitute a role playing game. Not really a discussion point for me, just my opinion based on the definitions of an RPG.



ME and DAO are classic examples of pure RPG's.

[Doug84]

skiele wrote...

mass effect is not an rpg. mass effect is an adventure game with shooter and rpg elements. and i think it's very good like this.

imho.

Agreed. Screw the whiny people who complain about the lack of stats; if its a good game, its a good game! 

[artiss68w]

Hammer6767 wrote...

artiss68w wrote...

Hammer6767 wrote...

On another note...how many people considered Diablo and it's clones an RPG?  A lot.  And I think that game was no where close to what defines an RPG.

Oooo, that's a can of worms.

Not at all...it was purely an action game/loot fest.  There was some flimsy story, but no ROLE PLAYING.  You just fought hoards of monsters in a fairly linear manner.  There was no decision making or story branching.  I am not saying I didn't like it...I did.  I spent countless hours with it.  BUT, it wasn't anything like the Gold Box D&D games which were much more of a traditional RPG type game.

Bioware has perfected the branching storylines of RPG games.  They remind me of the old "Choose your own adventure" books.

I consider Diablo 1, D2, and ME2 all RPGs. 

Did the forumites kick up this much stink when Jade Empire came out? JE: less than 10 weapon styles, no direct control of party members, only one follower at a time, bare bones stats, no character creation, no armors (only diff gems to put into an amulet), linear game world with little back-tracking, only two ways to play closed fist/open palm, etc.

[Schneidend]

Hammer6767 wrote...

Diablo and Diablo 2 were action games with RPG features (stats, experience). ME2 is much closer to what a traditional RPG is as you control your character's destiny through choices.

A linear game like Torchlight or Diablo does not constitute a role playing game. Not really a discussion point for me, just my opinion based on the definitions of an RPG.

ME and DAO are classic examples of pure RPG's.

This definition of yours implies that hack-and-slash dungeon crawls in D&D are somehow not RPGs, and I find that to be utterly preposterous.

[Faust1979]

there is loot in this game and there are rewards for finding stuff you just need to research it to get the good stuff. There is a loot system in this game just because it's a little different doesn't mean it's not there but you get rewards for finding stuff just like in any roleplaying game. Some people just can't accept a little change

[artiss68w]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

There was no looting in ME1, weapons armor and mods (no items per se) magically appeared in your equip screen (there were no inventory system either).

Shhh, no one is supposed to know......

[lukandroll]

ralphfromdk wrote...

this is a counter rant to all those people who say that this game is less of an rpg because it lacks loot and stuff like that...

come on.. seriously..? is that all a rpg is to you..? 
"screw the storie and me choosing the fate of all life as we know it, i just want to look through crates for left over armor and guns!!" 

that's not what rpgs are about.. apparently people only feel that there is progression if they get new stuff...
what about the storie evolving..? did you forget that what the name means... you play... a role... in a game...
hence "role- playing- game"
they didn't call it a "grab a bag and go loot the aliens you kill" game...

it's the future god damn it.... machines are supposed to do all this weapons stuff for you.. you don't go looting enemies unless you are a scrap salesman.. you're a soldier.. here's some gear, now go kill stuff with it...

to me it makes more sense that shepard only has to buy research for the gear he/she already has... you're supposed to be this top trained soldier, with state of the art guns and armor (untill they make improvements in a lab somewhere) and that's what you use you're funding on.. you are working for a "private" company now..

it doesn't make sense to go "hold up guys.. i need to check these here Geth for stuff"
"oh wow.. look at this !!! i found a new armor.. let me put it on out here in the vacume"...
"hey.. look at this.. i found a weapon mod on the ground... let me just put it into my gun and see what happens"

and yes i know there's the classic "but it's just a game, it doesn't have to make sense"... but i like the things they did.. they make sense...




and don't get me started on the Mako... every action game (yes ME is an action-rpg) has this half-arsed driving part, that really isn't all that good.. i'm glad they got rid of it...

 

No, ME2 is less of an RPG because that's BioWare whole intention, to cather other audiences...
But obviously if you had played other RPGS other than ME you should already know this, its no secret that ME2 is more of a shooter with light RPG mechanics than its predecesor

Modifié par lukandroll, 07 février 2010 - 06:19 .

[PSUHammer]

Schneidend wrote...

Hammer6767 wrote...

Diablo and Diablo 2 were action games with RPG features (stats, experience). ME2 is much closer to what a traditional RPG is as you control your character's destiny through choices.

A linear game like Torchlight or Diablo does not constitute a role playing game. Not really a discussion point for me, just my opinion based on the definitions of an RPG.

ME and DAO are classic examples of pure RPG's.

This definition of yours implies that hack-and-slash dungeon crawls in D&D are somehow not RPGs, and I find that to be utterly preposterous.

Well, it is okay to agree to disagree.

[artiss68w]

lukandroll wrote...

No, ME2 is less of an RPG because that's BioWare whole intention, to cather other audiences...
But obviously if you had played other RPGS other than ME you should already know this, its no secret that ME2 is more of a shooter with light RPG mechanics than its predecesor

ME1 was wasn't a shooter with light RPG mechanics? . 

[Andorfiend]

I hate repeating myself, but...

Here's my problem with the ME 2 loot system.

In ME 1, yes loot might be some generic weapons/armour/mods but it could also be data files that would update your codex. It could be an ancient artifact of the protheans to advance mankinds knowledge, it could be a lost Turian colony insignia or Slarian League of One medallion to learn of past alien conflicts and intrigues. You might get an encrypted memo that leads to a side mission. You could find out that the Protheans spied an ancient hominids. You might get a criminals data files and help a plucky young reporter.

In ME 2 what do you get? Cash. Loot a safe? Cash. Hack a terminal? Cash. Splice a PDA? Cash. Explore virgin forest on an unexplored world? Cash.

So yes the shift in loot systems decreases the RPG feel of ME 2 because hacking a computer and finding data files feels real, checking out a PDA on the body of a dead scientist in an abandoned black lab and finding ... cash ... actively kicks me right in my suspension of disbelief, or sense of immersion if you prefer. It's just blah.

[rwilli80]

ralphfromdk wrote...


"oh wow.. look at this !!! i found a new armor.. let me put it on out here in the vacume"...

Don't forget...
"Hey this armor looks awesome.. and it must be good I am taking it off a guy I just killed."