131 réponses à ce sujet

[themaxzero]

Coldcall01 wrote...

But that is a funny thing about this debate on armours. Its how ME2 fans are arguing for less armour than in ME1.

I just dont get it. Would'nt we all like more armour?

I find some people spring to the defence of obvious flaws in ME2 with the most convoluted excuses. Maybe im wrong about the numerical difference in choices but that was my OP, and i suggest there is only one way to prove me wrong and thats do the ME2 maths and I'll be here waiting.

Everything is opinion and preference.

No i'm asking the ME Art team not to waste time making HUNDREDS of textures simply to create the illusion of complexity. Why not work on some real content instead?

[Coldcall01]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Coldcall01 wrote...

work it out.

ME1 you had 3 classes of armour.
ME1 you had at least 10 different models

No, 3 different models(L,M,H) and 10 different textures.

Its essentially the same looking armor with a different paint job,  in ME2 you can give your armor a paintjob and customise individual parts with each part having different stats and capabilities.

So by your "deductive maths logicks", ME2 armor > ME1 armor.

No that is a straw man argument. The choices are there. You are just saying they are superficial or hardly different. Its not the same point.

You completely ignore the upgrade slots etc...

[SithLordExarKun]

Coldcall01 wrote...


In ME2 Shepard has some choices, all of them unique armour to him/her. His squad have 2 choices, excatly 2, and one has to be unlocked :-)

So? The "default armors" for squad mates once again make those characters look unique and not so generic in ME1.

[Coldcall01]

themaxzero wrote...

Coldcall01 wrote...

But that is a funny thing about this debate on armours. Its how ME2 fans are arguing for less armour than in ME1.

I just dont get it. Would'nt we all like more armour?

I find some people spring to the defence of obvious flaws in ME2 with the most convoluted excuses. Maybe im wrong about the numerical difference in choices but that was my OP, and i suggest there is only one way to prove me wrong and thats do the ME2 maths and I'll be here waiting.

Everything is opinion and preference.

No i'm asking the ME Art team not to waste time making HUNDREDS of textures simply to create the illusion of complexity. Why not work on some real content instead?

Well any improvement on armour configuration variety for Shepard, and particulalry the squad would be a vast improvement. I wont argue against it, but i would be pretty depressed thinking i have to pay for it in some dlc. Im not going to become a punter of $5 DLCs which give me a new armour and some linear 15 minute map.

[Coldcall01]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Coldcall01 wrote...


In ME2 Shepard has some choices, all of them unique armour to him/her. His squad have 2 choices, excatly 2, and one has to be unlocked :-)

So? The "default armors" for squad mates once again make those characters look unique and not so generic in ME1.

They sure looked way more unique, or one could tailor their appearance, and armour stats to an exponentially  higher degree than in ME2.

I cant see how you could argue otherwise.

[SithLordExarKun]

Coldcall01 wrote...




No that is a straw man argument. The choices are there. You are just saying they are superficial or hardly different. Its not the same point.

You completely ignore the upgrade slots etc...

And you completely ignore that each individual part is an "upgrade" to the armor. The choices are there, but its essentially the same model with a different texture and different stats

Seriously, in ME1 is equip armor + insert useless upgrade to slot 1 and 2.
In ME2 its : Change each individual part, each part has different stats and aesthetics, give paint job, give tint, give material, give armor different variation + your shepard looks unique.

You busted your own balls again with your own logic.

Coldcall01 wrote...

The lack of depth in ME2 is derisory.
It really feels like it was developed for adolescent couch potatos who
need to be shown with a big pointy hand where to go next in a game and
what to wear. The levels/maps are so simplistic i could hardly believe
this was developed by the same company who brought us DAO, BG series,
KOTOR etc...

Right because the ME1 uncharted worlds aren't simplistic(copy + paste for every "uncharted world"). Horrible argument.


+ you are a troll :  http://en.wikipedia....ki/Cold_calling

Modifié par SithLordExarKun, 05 février 2010 - 01:43 .

[Cygnus Atratus]

Coldcall01 wrote...

work it out.

ME1 you had 3 classes of armour.
ME1 you had at least 10 different models

3 * 10 = 30.

ME1 had within those classes 10 levels of quality.

30 * 10 = 300

ME1 had minimum 2 upgrade slots on each set of armour.

300 * 2 = 600

ME1 had at least 10 different types of upgrade cartidges and different levels of quality (im guessing now)

600 * 10 (this is very conservative as im not counting different quality of protection)

= 6000 (possible variations depending taking all classes into account) Note the real figure is much higher because of the upgrade levels but i cannot be bothered.

Now if you care to do the same for ME2 and show me how you can have more unique possible configurations of armour I;d be much appreciated.

You'll have to hit 6000 at a minimum. Go on someone prove me wrong.

Also, at lvl 7+ of the quality of an armour, you get two slots for upgrades. Let's say that there actually are 10 different types of upgrades, then every armour variation above and included quality lvl 7 should be multiplied by 55, not 10.

Anyway, that's not what I wanted to say. It's what I had to say. I have compulsions.

I think your maths is full of wishful thinking.

In ME1 you had...

3 different armour types. Each armour type had its own mesh.

Several different manufacturers with different skins for each armour type's corresponding mesh.
This irrelevant since you are free to tint and tone your armour however you want in ME2.

Quality level doesn't change appearance. Neither do armour mods.

So essentially, ME1 had three different models for armour; one for each type.

ME2 has four different models for each armour piece, which there are five of; helmet, shoulder, chest, arms and legs.

Visually, ME2 has the greatest number of customization options.
Stats-wise, ME1 had the most customization of stats and bonuses.

So if you could apply a modification to each armour-piece. That would be awesome!

[DarthCaine]

Coldcall01 wrote...

work it out.

ME1 you had 3 classes of armour.
ME1 you had at least 10 different models

3 * 10 = 30.

ME1 had within those classes 10 levels of quality.

30 * 10 = 300

ME1 had minimum 2 upgrade slots on each set of armour.

300 * 2 = 600

ME1 had at least 10 different types of upgrade cartidges and different levels of quality (im guessing now)

600 * 10 (this is very conservative as im not counting different quality of protection)

= 6000 (possible variations depending taking all classes into account) Note the real figure is much higher because of the upgrade levels but i cannot be bothered.

Now if you care to do the same for ME2 and show me how you can have more unique possible configurations of armour I;d be much appreciated.

You'll have to hit 6000 at a minimum. Go on someone prove me wrong.

LOL, even though your chart is completely wrong, by your logic in ME2:

There's about 4 types of each piece (helmet, chest, shoulders, legs, arms). There's about 20 different colours for both Tint 1 and Tint 2 (or as YOU call them models, not colors), and there's 3 types of textures

So if you make all the combinations it'll be like what, a million different armors ?

Modifié par DarthCaine, 05 février 2010 - 01:45 .

[Besetment]

n4d4n wrote...
Did I mention Mass Effect 1? Doesn't change the fact that most people would want to see a greater selection of armor types, and the ability to choose between light, medium and heavy armor variations instead of just one type of armor: being the N7 and being forced to wear the heavy version of it.

This would benefit the game, not take away from it.

Looks like a hot tip for any Bioware reps out there if you want to make some easy cash. DLC pack containing new N7 custom models/skins based on light and medium variants found in the previous game?

DarthCaine wrote...
LOL, even though your chart is completely wrong, by your logic in ME2:

There's
about 4 types of each piece (helmet, chest, shoulders, legs, arms).
There's about 20 different colours for both Tint 1 and Tint 2, and
there's 3 types of textures

So if you make all the combinations it'll be like what, a million different armors ?

You missed all the upgrade permutations too so you have to factor that into
every N7 armour permutation and all possible colour combinations which
theoretically results in billions of different armours. WOW!

Modifié par Besetment, 05 février 2010 - 01:47 .

[Coldcall01]

Cygnus Atratus,



No you are wrong because each level of armour whether light, medium or heavy had a speicific stat unique to that individual class, model and level. The armour came with a built in stat, and then that stat could be modified thousands of ways depending on your selection of upgrades and the particular armour chosen.



Like i said earlier people may feel that well those changes and variations are so subtle that they dont really count. That was not my point. Based purely on statistical maths one can demonstrate ME2 armour is way dumbed down from a perpsective of player configured variety.



And this is most clearly obvious with the squad members who have 2 choices in ME2. Whoopee.

[Cygnus Atratus]

DarthCaine wrote...

Coldcall01 wrote...

work it out.

ME1 you had 3 classes of armour.
ME1 you had at least 10 different models

3 * 10 = 30.

ME1 had within those classes 10 levels of quality.

30 * 10 = 300

ME1 had minimum 2 upgrade slots on each set of armour.

300 * 2 = 600

ME1 had at least 10 different types of upgrade cartidges and different levels of quality (im guessing now)

600 * 10 (this is very conservative as im not counting different quality of protection)

= 6000 (possible variations depending taking all classes into account) Note the real figure is much higher because of the upgrade levels but i cannot be bothered.

Now if you care to do the same for ME2 and show me how you can have more unique possible configurations of armour I;d be much appreciated.

You'll have to hit 6000 at a minimum. Go on someone prove me wrong.

LOL, even though your chart is completely wrong, by your logic in ME2:

There's about 4 types of each piece (helmet, chest, shoulders, legs, arms). There's about 20 different colours for both Tint 1 and Tint 2, and there's 3 types of textures

So if you make all the combinations it'll be like what, a million different armors ?

I believe this is the correct way to calculate the amount of variation of models in ME2.

4 different pieces in each of the five categories => 4! * 5 = 120.

No need to bother working the tints and tones into the equation. It's gonna be a huge number.

*EDIT*

My bad, it should actually be calculated as follows: 4^5 = 1024. yay, variation!

Modifié par Cygnus Atratus, 05 février 2010 - 02:06 .

[Cygnus Atratus]

Coldcall01 wrote...

Cygnus Atratus,

No you are wrong because each level of armour whether light, medium or heavy had a speicific stat unique to that individual class, model and level. The armour came with a built in stat, and then that stat could be modified thousands of ways depending on your selection of upgrades and the particular armour chosen.

Like i said earlier people may feel that well those changes and variations are so subtle that they dont really count. That was not my point. Based purely on statistical maths one can demonstrate ME2 armour is way dumbed down from a perpsective of player configured variety.

And this is most clearly obvious with the squad members who have 2 choices in ME2. Whoopee.

My conclusion was that ME2 has more visual variation than ME1. But when taking stats into account, ME1 whoops ME2 without a doubt.

Or do you disagree on this point?

[Kwikness]

Mass Effect was never intend to be an RPG with guns. If it was it would play like KoTOR, It was designed as a shooter with RPG story/choices. That is BioWare's current mission, bring RPG depth story and choices to other genres. Look at The Old Republic, bringing BioWare level story to the MMO genre. I would not be at all surprised to find their next game is a story rich RTS.



And as for armors. I like the customization option and I hope it stays that way instead of being stuck with two "ubersuits" and a bunch of crap. I wish they would leave the benefits separate from the different cosmetic pieces and add more pieces, but I understand why they did it this way and it does feel more realistic to have them linked.



I will always miss my FemShep, Ash, Liara party all in Guardian armor (think Novaria security detail) but I think going back to the old way would be a bad idea.

[Killian Kalthorne]

DarthCaine wrote...
In ME2 the possibilities are almost limitless 'cos you can customize it any way you want

Really?  So tell me then, how do I customize Mrianda's armor?  How about Garrus'?  Jack's.  You said we can customize armor to almost limitless fashion so tell us oh wise one, how do we customize the armor of our squad.

[DarthCaine]

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...
In ME2 the possibilities are almost limitless 'cos you can customize it any way you want

Really?  So tell me then, how do I customize Mrianda's armor?  How about Garrus'?  Jack's.  You said we can customize armor to almost limitless fashion so tell us oh wise one, how do we customize the armor of our squad.

I never said anything about the squad's armor

[Coldcall01]

Cygnus Atratus wrote...

Coldcall01 wrote...

Cygnus Atratus,

No you are wrong because each level of armour whether light, medium or heavy had a speicific stat unique to that individual class, model and level. The armour came with a built in stat, and then that stat could be modified thousands of ways depending on your selection of upgrades and the particular armour chosen.

Like i said earlier people may feel that well those changes and variations are so subtle that they dont really count. That was not my point. Based purely on statistical maths one can demonstrate ME2 armour is way dumbed down from a perpsective of player configured variety.

And this is most clearly obvious with the squad members who have 2 choices in ME2. Whoopee.

My conclusion was that ME2 has more visual variation than ME1. But when taking stats into account, ME1 whoops ME2 without a doubt.

Or do you disagree on this point?

Ya i agree with that, but the colour imrpovement in ME only applies to Shepard. had it applied to the rest of your squad and one could configure them as per Shepard i probably would not be biacting as much.

[Coldcall01]

DarthCaine wrote...

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...
In ME2 the possibilities are almost limitless 'cos you can customize it any way you want

Really?  So tell me then, how do I customize Mrianda's armor?  How about Garrus'?  Jack's.  You said we can customize armor to almost limitless fashion so tell us oh wise one, how do we customize the armor of our squad.

I never said anything about the squad's armor

Well we are talking about the difference in configuration possibilities in armour between ME1 and ME2. As the squad were as configurable as Shepard in ME1, then ME2 must be appraised on the same basis.

hence it starts the contest down as the squad is just patently not configurable in ME2, other than a change of outfit.

[haberman13]

DarthCaine wrote...

You're forgetting that there was only 3 different models for armors in ME1. The others were just with a different color and a bunch of roman numerals to make you think they're different

In ME2 the possibilities are almost limitless 'cos you can customize it any way you want

Absolutely false, also, color variations are for the birds.

[Killian Kalthorne]

DarthCaine wrote...
 I never said anything about the squad's armor

You said "limitless" and it being limited just for Shepherd means it is SEVERELY LIMITED.  Choose your words better next time.

[haberman13]

darkbark916 wrote...

 ME1 had an armor style that left little to the imagination, was based on the traditional loot management RPG style of gear, and had almost no personal feel to it. I couldn't stand most of the armor.

However, ME2 has a much higher degree of personal style with it, and the upgrade and modification system makes the whole experience much more involved. You get to personalize rather than muddle through an endless sea of "not much variance."

Personally, I think the new system is a vast improvement. Although I do wait for a game of this caliber to have customization on par with ES3: Morrowind, it's most likely not going to happen. 

While we're on the subject, the toning down of the fine point customization, on things like the skills, just makes them more fine tuned and specialized. To me, this makes you HAVE to act more tactical on the field, which I think makes the game better.

So, while I do see where your coming from, I feel like it's being slightly too critical of the game. It's meant to be more of an immersion into a story, rather than free roaming the galaxy. But, for a trilogy based on an awesome story line, I don't really think it's far off from being perfect for this era of video games.

How can you mention Morrowind and liking ME2's armor system in the same post?  Opposite ends of the spectrum, if anything you should be joining the battle to un-dumb-down ME3 if you liked Morrowind.

Morrowind is a gamer benchmark really, if you don't like it I think your opinions about games are suspect.

Help me clear up the confusion.

[haberman13]

Coldcall01 wrote...

Cygnus Atratus,

No you are wrong because each level of armour whether light, medium or heavy had a speicific stat unique to that individual class, model and level. The armour came with a built in stat, and then that stat could be modified thousands of ways depending on your selection of upgrades and the particular armour chosen.

Like i said earlier people may feel that well those changes and variations are so subtle that they dont really count. That was not my point. Based purely on statistical maths one can demonstrate ME2 armour is way dumbed down from a perpsective of player configured variety.

And this is most clearly obvious with the squad members who have 2 choices in ME2. Whoopee.

Conclusion: people who like the changes to ME2 don't like complex games.

Modifié par haberman13, 05 février 2010 - 02:13 .

[Bluemax151]

In ME1 you are generally wearing a variant of Predator or Colossus unless you haven't found some yet because of bad lack or because wherever you currently need environmental protection. I'm not going to argue there is more or less customization there.



I like ME2s general system because you have a color/pattern slider bar and can equip Head, Shoulder, chest and leg sections separately but there is a severe lack of choices in each category still and the bonuses they give are still generally a joke. Choices are more for aesthetics than actual performance. I wouldn't mind having the ability maybe have a drop down box to change your overall scheme to light/medium/heavy and just have it change the overall models for some of the pieces though. A helmet toggle I would LOVE.



Team members I think are completely silly because none wear head protection ever and one is basically naked.

[xxttxx]

Coldcall01 wrote...


This is not a rant against Bioware in general because i really enjoyed DAO and will keep playing that game and probably buy the expansion when it comes out. But seeing what was done with ME2 I feel no urge or attraction towards an ME3 unless they drastically re-design the gameplay to be more complex, more RPG like, and less like a map-map linear shooter.

I should have known better than to pre-order ME2. In fact i've never pre-ordered any game in my whole life and I've been a PC gamer since mid 80s.

But I loved ME1 like many others and really thought ME2 would be something special by taking all the best bits, improving them, and making a bigger more in-depth game.

What i think is very odd is how ME1 was designed for the console but was actually quite a deep complex game, which ported well over to the PC. However ME2 was developed for both platforms but ends up feeling like a dumbed down console shooter far more than the first game.

The lack of depth in ME2 is derisory. It really feels like it was developed for adolescent couch potatos who need to be shown with a big pointy hand where to go next in a game and what to wear. The levels/maps are so simplistic i could hardly believe this was developed by the same company who brought us DAO, BG series, KOTOR etc...

The point about lack of complexity and depth to ME2 can be proven very easily through simple maths. Yes i hear people try to argue ME2 more custimisable, but that is just nonsense from any empirical analysis,

Lets take the armour for a start:

There were the following differentials of armour configuration not just for Shepard but all the squad:

ME1= light, medium, heavy armours which would accord with your chosen class, which makes sense since an adept wont be wearing the same armour as a soldier. Then within those three classses there were the actual many different makes/types of armour such as Collosus, Predator etc...And even more choice was based on the fact you could add or remove upgrade cartidges which covered shields, mediskeletons, barriers, and other interesting upgrades and bonuses.

ME2= one armour class. Up to 3 or 4 different models of chest, legs, arms pieces. And? Thats it folks.

Just do the maths and even the most inumerate should be able to come to the simple conclusion that on armour alone ME1 is a far more complex and customisable game. The possible variations of armour customisation in ME1 are so superior its not even worth the trouble of getting your calculator out.

Sorry but i find the lack of options in ME2 to be only worthy of those in a coma or braindead.

very sad to see a once great developer join the populist x-factor generation of game making drivel.

+1

[themaxzero]

What was complex about ME 1's armour again?



Put on Col. X, Insert 2 Medical Exoskeletons.



Rinse, repeat.

[Deltateam Elcor]

The upgrades in ME2 are useless...5% to something...gee wow useful.