131 réponses à ce sujet

[foolybug]

All this arguments for armor in the end what Bioware should have done was implemented Light, Medium, and Heavy armor that made sense to class specific and base stat. From that still able to interchange each part of the armor to better of the base stat. Seems to me that makes more sense really.



P.S. It's no denying the whole coloring and other mesh stuff for the armor is a welcomed addition to ME2 just would have still like to see light and medium armor to class specific rather than having all the class have defualted heavy armor N7.

[Skemte]

I am perfectly fine with ME2's system.. The problem is just that there are entirely too few pieces.. I would be content if for armor there were some 10 different choices for each slot.. With more varying bonuses.. Outside of that this goes for weapons as well.. I like this system, the only problem I have is its TOO limited.. There needs to be more choices.. Weapons needs to have some 6 to 8 different choices in each catagory.. Which later on the the 2 to 3 of those 6 to 8 are based on preference in being unique then which one is the best.. That is really all.

[Cygnus Atratus]

haberman13 wrote...

Coldcall01 wrote...

Cygnus Atratus,

No you are wrong because each level of armour whether light, medium or heavy had a speicific stat unique to that individual class, model and level. The armour came with a built in stat, and then that stat could be modified thousands of ways depending on your selection of upgrades and the particular armour chosen.

Like i said earlier people may feel that well those changes and variations are so subtle that they dont really count. That was not my point. Based purely on statistical maths one can demonstrate ME2 armour is way dumbed down from a perpsective of player configured variety.

And this is most clearly obvious with the squad members who have 2 choices in ME2. Whoopee.

Conclusion: people who like the changes to ME2 don't like complex games.

That depends on what parts of the game are complex. Complex inventory management I am not a fan of!

Complex story, complex combat, complex problems to solve... I can't say no to that.

What did you specifically mean when you said "complex games" ?

[Killian Kalthorne]

All they have to do is remove the Roman numeral aspect of armor, allow such armor be used by all characters, and use the baseline modification system of Shepherd's armor. That would have been perfect acceptable to me.

[DarthCaine]

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

All they have to do is remove the Roman numeral aspect of armor, allow such armor be used by all characters, and use the baseline modification system of Shepherd's armor. That would have been perfect acceptable to me.

So, your only problem is that squad mate's don't have armor?

[Warlokki]

I don't get how ME1 is more complex than 2. You got 4 weapons. Period. There's no complexity equipping one with more damage. Weapons from same class have two graphical variations but act the same, thus are the same weapon. Armor... There were two choices really, you equip one with as high DR as possible or as high shields as possible (or one with most tech protection.. but who did that?) Sure there were a lot of different skins, and two manufacturers had hidden properties (Devlon, Sirta) but otherwise there's nothing complex. Looks are not complex.

True, you can mod weapons and armor, but those didn't affect the way they work. In ME2, you've got really different weapons, and ones you get later are not necessarily better but more about your playstyle. Of course we lost the ability to truly modify weapons but choosing beetween weapons that act differently is better than determining whether you want more dmg or heat capacity (that's what the mods were really about in ME1). IMO.



Armor customization offers more freedom regarding looks in ME2 and also we have multiple (though too few) different pieces that give different statistics. More complex, allows better minmaxing if needed. Of course you can play the game through using standard N7 pieces without any trouble... but then you could do that on ME1 on Insane using the Onyx I armor only, again without bigger trouble (no, i had no trouble when i did this, starting with new guy) (note that i haven't played ME2 on insane yet).



Overall, neither game is really complex (when it comes to equipment), ME2 giving a bit more freedom of choice and through it, a bit more complexity.

I would have liked more armor pieces and more customizable armors and more painting choices, not just N7 one, for ME2... i hope BW does add such in DLC.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Pretty much. No trained soldier such as Garrus would go into a firefight with such damaged armor. Even a psycho biotic would know that barriers and shields will fail against a barrage of weapon fire. Going into a fight half naked would indeed be suicidal.

[SithLordExarKun]

Killian Kalthorne wrote...


Really?  So tell me then, how do I customize Mrianda's armor?  How about Garrus'?  Jack's.  You said we can customize armor to almost limitless fashion so tell us oh wise one, how do we customize the armor of our squad.

He said "it", "it" refers to shepard.

[SithLordExarKun]

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

Pretty much. No trained soldier such as Garrus would go into a firefight with such damaged armor. Even a psycho biotic would know that barriers and shields will fail against a barrage of weapon fire. Going into a fight half naked would indeed be suicidal.

Its "sci fi". You want to talk about realism then ME isn't even realistic to begin with.

[Cygnus Atratus]

DarthCaine wrote...

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

All they have to do is remove the Roman numeral aspect of armor, allow such armor be used by all characters, and use the baseline modification system of Shepherd's armor. That would have been perfect acceptable to me.

So, your only problem is that squad mate's don't have armor?

Technically, the only one with armour is Mr. Grunt, and that's not until he gains his special ability.

Normally, every squad member, including shepard, has to make do with shields and health. So why do their character models need to carry armour (as in ablative coating thingies)?

[Killian Kalthorne]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

You want to talk about realism then ME isn't even realistic to begin with.

I am not asking for realism.  I am asking for consistency.  After all armor was very much a part of and a needed part of Mass Effect 1.  Setting consistency is very important in order to enhance game immersion.

[haberman13]

Cygnus Atratus wrote...

haberman13 wrote...

Coldcall01 wrote...

Cygnus Atratus,

No you are wrong because each level of armour whether light, medium or heavy had a speicific stat unique to that individual class, model and level. The armour came with a built in stat, and then that stat could be modified thousands of ways depending on your selection of upgrades and the particular armour chosen.

Like i said earlier people may feel that well those changes and variations are so subtle that they dont really count. That was not my point. Based purely on statistical maths one can demonstrate ME2 armour is way dumbed down from a perpsective of player configured variety.

And this is most clearly obvious with the squad members who have 2 choices in ME2. Whoopee.

Conclusion: people who like the changes to ME2 don't like complex games.

That depends on what parts of the game are complex. Complex inventory management I am not a fan of!

Complex story, complex combat, complex problems to solve... I can't say no to that.

What did you specifically mean when you said "complex games" ?

Is ME2 really a complex story?  You can be good/evil and have no variation in where the story goes other than your response to it. (not complaining, I love this part of ME2)

Is ME2 combat complex?  How so?  I shot my way through every situation (just like ME1 tbh).

What complex problems to solve?

I specifically mean complexity in the min/maxing of my characters abilities, while you can technically still do that in ME2, the system for changing your character (and party) has been neutered to the point that you don't notice a "power" increase by changing the various stat increases (+5% health? yaaaaay!?!?!?)

[SithLordExarKun]

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

You want to talk about realism then ME isn't even realistic to begin with.

I am not asking for realism.  I am asking for consistency.  After all armor was very much a part of and a needed part of Mass Effect 1.  Setting consistency is very important in order to enhance game immersion.

Going by that rationale why would jedi even wear robes to begin with? Just an example.

[orpheus333]

Mass Effect 2 is a better game than Mass Effect 1



As we can see 100 better in fact.

Modifié par andyr1986, 05 février 2010 - 02:54 .

[Killian Kalthorne]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

You want to talk about realism then ME isn't even realistic to begin with.

I am not asking for realism.  I am asking for consistency.  After all armor was very much a part of and a needed part of Mass Effect 1.  Setting consistency is very important in order to enhance game immersion.

Going by that rationale why would jedi even wear robes to begin with? Just an example.

WHy bring Star Wars crap into this?  You want to know the best way to kill a Jedi?  Liberal use of a combat shotgun with 00 Buck.  I hate Star Wars.

[SithLordExarKun]

Killian Kalthorne wrote...


WHy bring Star Wars crap into this?  You want to know the best way to kill a Jedi?  Liberal use of a combat shotgun with 00 Buck.  I hate Star Wars.

Its just an example, its sci fi as ME is. I *used* to like star wars but i am pretty fed up with it with its generic storyline "OMG SITH INVADE KILL JEDI TO EXTINCTION TING TONG TING TONG".

[Killian Kalthorne]

I consider Star Wars fantasy, not sci fi. After all, the central theme of Star Wars is the Force which is for all purposes Magic. Remove the starships, lasers, and such, but keep the Force in the setting, you will still have "Star Wars." If you remove the Force from the setting you remove its central theme and it is no longer "Star Wars."

[n4d4n]

themaxzero wrote...

Coldcall01 wrote...

But that is a funny thing about this debate on armours. Its how ME2 fans are arguing for less armour than in ME1.

I just dont get it. Would'nt we all like more armour?

I find some people spring to the defence of obvious flaws in ME2 with the most convoluted excuses. Maybe im wrong about the numerical difference in choices but that was my OP, and i suggest there is only one way to prove me wrong and thats do the ME2 maths and I'll be here waiting.

Everything is opinion and preference.

No i'm asking the ME Art team not to waste time making HUNDREDS of textures simply to create the illusion of complexity. Why not work on some real content instead?

Agreed, but how about 5 or 10 different types of armor you can find throughout the game. You can make them unique stat wise to suit certain playstyles. Then allowing a light, medium and heavy variation of these armors. All this can be done at the armor station, I'm not against the new systems in place. Is that too much for a development team to accomplish over the entire development cycle of the game?

Like I said Mass Effect 2 is awesome in terms of story, improved combat, graphics, role-playing, cinematics. However I think it could be much improved in terms of adding more customisation for people within the current systems in place.

[SithLordExarKun]

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

I consider Star Wars fantasy, not sci fi. After all, the central theme of Star Wars is the Force which is for all purposes Magic. Remove the starships, lasers, and such, but keep the Force in the setting, you will still have "Star Wars." If you remove the Force from the setting you remove its central theme and it is no longer "Star Wars."

I actually considered it a hybrid of sci fi and fantasy, but point taken.

Star wars is crap now.

[EternalWolfe]

Easy Math. First, you have to split Look variety and Stat variety.

Looks
ME1 has 3 armor models(Light, Medium, Heavy) and 17 different textures(armor names).
ME2 has 5 armor parts with 4 pieces of armor per part(each with its own distinct look). Also, you can customize the color of it all, color, two tints, and a material.
Visually, ME2 wins out. Also, the actual models in ME1 were very similar, even across weight classes, although that may just be my personal opinion.

Stats
*ME1 has 17 armor types. The level doesn't count as that's not really variety, its progression. Your not going to pass up Ursa VIII just cause you already have VII.
*ME1 also has upgrades. While you might seem to have a plethora of upgrade types, you actually end up with only 5 at the end: Medical Exoskeleton, Kinetic Exoskeleton, Combat Exoskeleton, Energized Plating, and Shield Interface. At the lowest level(before the bonuses start mixing together) you have 9.
*So, at the lowest level, ME1 has 459(17 armors x 9 upgrades x 3 weights) possible armor/upgrade variations. At max, you get 765(17 armors x 15 upgrade variations x 3 weights) possible armor/upgrade variations.

*ME2 has each pieces(thats 4 pieces per part and 5 parts) with a bonus. That gives a total of about 1024 variations(not counting the full suits from preorder, ect) of your total armor setup and bonuses.

*ME2 wins out again, although only slightly. If there were a few more different armors or if you wanted to argue that a direct progression counted as variety would be the only way to get higher.

Now then, personally, I like ME2's system better for a different reason: I feel like I'm actually building my armor. In the first one, each armor was just a similiar shaped and slightly stronger/different-stated increase that I got millions of, only to scrap or sell. In the second one, I feel like I'm actually building an armor that suits my character(such as getting the visor from Omega for my Infiltrator.)

Would I like to set up the same for my allies? Sure. Would I like some more pieces with bonuses and drawbacks? Hell yeah. Does ME have more variety in total possible armors then ME2? Q.E.D.

Modifié par EternalWolfe, 06 février 2010 - 12:37 .

[TJSolo]

The variances you guys are coming up with only account for Shepard in ME1. I for one changed and customized the armor of my squad(granted Asari armor is the same as human but Quarian, Krogan, and Turian are different not having a "generic" feel.

As for the fullsuits from the ME2 preorder they are just +1 depending on where you got the preorder.



Even with the variance there is little evolution in stats of ME2s armor. From a stat standpoint I could never change any part in ME2 or miss out on some code giveaway, and not even be noticeably effected in gameplay.

Armor isn't even an important factor in ME2. Proof being BW didn't even put in the ability to change the parts of your squadmates to improve their performance or if some of you prefer improve their "uniqueness" to your game as opposed to someone elses.

[EternalWolfe]

[quote]TJSolo wrote...

[quote]The variances you guys are coming up with only account for Shepard in ME1. I for one changed and customized the armor of my squad(granted Asari armor is the same as human but Quarian, Krogan, and Turian are different not having a "generic" feel.[/quote]

Fair point.  Each one would have about the same number of variations(most of them being the exact same variaitions).  This either leaves it the same if you consider it seperatly, and only exceeds ME2's if you mix them together.  But I do agree with the sentiment that everyone person should have modular armor, rather then just Shepard, in ME2.  I can only hope ME3 allows all members to be customized.

[quote]As for the fullsuits from the ME2 preorder they are just +1 depending on where you got the preorder.[/quote]

I have Terminus, Collector, and Blood Dragon.  +3 for me(and -2 1/2 for not being modular like the rest of the armor)

[quote]Even with the variance there is little evolution in stats of ME2s armor. From a stat standpoint I could never change any part in ME2 or miss out on some code giveaway, and not even be noticeably effected in gameplay.
Armor isn't even an important factor in ME2. Proof being BW didn't even put in the ability to change the parts of your squadmates to improve their performance or if some of you prefer improve their "uniqueness" to your game as opposed to someone elses.
[/quote]

Agreed, armor isn't an important factor.  The 'stats' that were governed by armor in the first game seem to be either gone, or they 'level up' hidden with your level(I have the 360 version, so I can't get in and check).  However, to be fair, across any certain level of armor, the stats weren't very different either, only slight increase here, a minor decrease there . . .

[The Demonologist]

Er, admittedly having not read beyond a few posts at the start...


I believe Sheppard came with -4- seperate armor models. Light, Medium, Heavy, and this fellow: images2.wikia.nocookie.net/masseffect/images/thumb/9/92/Spectre_Armor.png/190px-Spectre_Armor.png 

[Matrices1]

I love all these guys who think that because they enjoyed ME1 more than ME2, they are intellectually superior and everyone else is just too retarded to appreciate the profound complexity of ME1.



Newsflash: it requires no great intelligence to sift through 50 pieces of crap, find the one with the best numbers, and slap it on. As far as level design goes, the only real difference in combat aside from the ubiquity of crates is that ME1 had a terrible map and ME2 has a pointer. There is no more complexity or profundity to levels in ME1 than in ME2. Just a lot more time-consuming driving.



Anyway, thank God that those who try to judge a game's value by drawing up Excel sheets and invoking comparisons of meaningless numbers aren't the ones who design actual games.

[bconk55]

Coldcall01 wrote...

Besetment,

Interesting post and i agree with you about illusion. But the point is that all computer games are based on an illusion. The trick is making that illusion as convincing as possible, and that is done by giving a player so many choices and configurations that he/she loses sight of the illusion.

The less choices and variations one has, the easier it is to start nit-picking about the shallow and linear gameplay.

Yes, often a game can seem complex when actually its not, but in ME1 armour was very configurable not just because of the different models (which many seem to think all look alike) but alos the upgrade slot system built into the armour sets.

This allowed options within options, which is not the case with ME2.

Sorry, but to pretend that every inventory system is built upon an illusion is silly. There are systems that actually result in choice, unlike ME1 where the differences between armor were miniscule or strictly linear (I, II, III, IV, etc.).
ME2 simply removed the illusion. It doesn't make it better, but it really isn't worse either.

The only complaint that holds up under scrutiny is the limited customization of your team. Other than that, is there really a difference between upgrading from upgrade I to II or from armor I to II? Not really.

That being said, I'd love to see a complex inventory system, or, perhaps more appropriately given the genre, an upgrade system that has real choice. A branch. A decision in specializing in one thing over another. Those are decisions that never really existed in EITHER game.