131 réponses à ce sujet

[AtreiyaN7]

I would think that most sensible people will always go after the best armor. I wear Colossus, and anyone in my group who can wear it ALSO wears Colossus (as for Wrex & Tali, they were wearing whatever the heck was the best). Regarding weapons in particular: having the "choice" between a bunch of crappy weapons that I will never use in my lifetime unless I lose about a hundred IQ points and suddenly decide to toss all my Spectre gear out the nearest airlock is meaningless, pointless and just wastes my time. In the case of ME1, I think the amount of "choice" was overrated. Woohoo, Phoenix armor. Boy, was I ever glad THAT was available - NOT.

Choice is only meaningful if there is a substantial difference in your armor or weapons. In a game like DA:O the gear is different enough that it's meaningful (and you don't have ridiculous I-X iterations). In ME1 the HMW weapons amounted to super-weapons, and nothing came close to them really. I'd never downgrade to a Stinger pistol, so towards the end of ME1 after multiple runs, my only choice was whether or not I wanted to take Tylenol while I omni-gelled all the crap I couldn't sell.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 06 février 2010 - 03:25 .

[Moonasha]

ME1 armor and weapons were better, especially with armor / gun / ammo mods. There is absoultely NO argueing that.

[Veex]

There is nothing difficult or complex about the armor system in Mass Effect. It is NOT hard to choose a heavy, medium, or light armor, especially when the only math required is knowing that 11 is greater than 4.



Is the inventory from Mass Effect more robust? Yes it is. Is it anyway complex or mentally challenging to navigate it? No, it certainly is not.

[TJSolo]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I would think that most sensible people will always go after the best armor. I wear Colossus, and anyone in my group who can wear it ALSO wears Colossus (as for Wrex & Tali, they were wearing whatever the heck was the best). Regarding weapons in particular: having the "choice" between a bunch of crappy weapons that I will never use in my lifetime unless I lose about a hundred IQ points and suddenly decide to toss all my Spectre gear out the nearest airlock is meaningless, pointless and just wastes my time. In the case of ME1, I think the amount of "choice" was overrated. Woohoo, Phoenix armor. Boy, was I ever glad THAT was available - NOT.

So from day one on your first save you and your team were in Colossus gear with Spectre weapons?

If you only compare the inventory system AFTER you have gotten the best gear and ignore the progression you made to acquiring it of course it would seem worse than what it was.

[Drakron]

Veex wrote...

There is nothing difficult or complex about the armor system in Mass Effect. It is NOT hard to choose a heavy, medium, or light armor, especially when the only math required is knowing that 11 is greater than 4.
 

Maybe but there were hidden properties in ME1 armor, such as armor manufactored by Devlon Industries granted immunity to enviromental harzards or Phoenix Armor that regenerated health.

N7 armor in ME2 have exactly 4 pieces for each area (chest,arms,hands and legs) besided the helmet, the customization might be interresting but the lack of any real upgrade (such as one part being better that the other) really does not give much reason to bother after the first upgrade as you are not getting much for tradeoff.

At least ME1 had a sinkhole for credits that was armor, such thing does not exist in ME2 (then again, its not as if there are uses for credits) and also there is something you forget, you do not get everything offered on a silver platter when starting the game, ME1 armor make people look forward to the next better armor ... ME2 offers everything from the start, there is no sense of achivement or nothing to look forward.

And that is one of reason why ME2 fails as a RPG, the "upgrade" race exist but that part of the carrot-on-a-stick that keeps the players going forward, ME2 is just meh as there is almost nothing of the sort as everything is served on a platter.

Heck even Half-Life keep giving us better and more powerful weapons to deal with better and more powerful enemies.

[Veex]

Drakron wrote...



And that is one of reason why ME2 fails
as a RPG, the "upgrade" race exist but that part of the
carrot-on-a-stick that keeps the players going forward, ME2 is just meh
as there is almost nothing of the sort as everything is served on a
platter.

The carrot-on-a-stick in Mass Effect was, and has always been in my opinion, the progression of the story. Omni gelling and selling useless inventory items only detracts from that, it doesn't enhance it. Mass Effect's inventory is not the answer. Could Mass Effect 2's inventory system use a little more itemization? I agree that it most certainly could. Would the upgrade system be a good thing to bring back? I agree that it would. Do I need to be sitting at 999,999,999 credits and 999 omni gel at the end of a game? No, I don't. That is the sign of a poorly designed and bloated inventory.

Drakron wrote...

Heck even Half-Life keep giving us better and more powerful weapons to deal with better and more powerful enemies.

So does Mass Effect 2. You aren't given the Widow at the beginning of the game. As a matter of fact, Half Life doesn't let you upgrade your armor that I'm aware of, so what's the big deal?

Modifié par Veex, 06 février 2010 - 03:59 .

[noobzor99]

TJSolo wrote...
So from day one on your first save you and your team were in Colossus gear with Spectre weapons?

If you only compare the inventory system AFTER you have gotten the best gear and ignore the progression you made to acquiring it of course it would seem worse than what it was.

This.

I didn't find colossus until my 2nd playthough on BDtS.  Up till then I used whatever looked cool and had decent stats.  My squad was Garrus and Wrex so we all had crazy-colored armor.  It was awesome.

Now, my allies consider it acceptable to go to battle in higheels and spandex- in deep space.  And even though they will follow me to hell and back, there is NO WAY they are going to be unfashionable by actually wearing armor:huh:

Modifié par noobzor99, 06 février 2010 - 04:04 .

[AtreiyaN7]

TJSolo wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I would think that most sensible people will always go after the best armor. I wear Colossus, and anyone in my group who can wear it ALSO wears Colossus (as for Wrex & Tali, they were wearing whatever the heck was the best). Regarding weapons in particular: having the "choice" between a bunch of crappy weapons that I will never use in my lifetime unless I lose about a hundred IQ points and suddenly decide to toss all my Spectre gear out the nearest airlock is meaningless, pointless and just wastes my time. In the case of ME1, I think the amount of "choice" was overrated. Woohoo, Phoenix armor. Boy, was I ever glad THAT was available - NOT.

So from day one on your first save you and your team were in Colossus gear with Spectre weapons?

If you only compare the inventory system AFTER you have gotten the best gear and ignore the progression you made to acquiring it of course it would seem worse than what it was.

Did you read the entire post? You clipped out the second part where I clearly, clearly stated "MULTIPLE RUNS" (let me put that in caps so that it is not missed this time). Oh yes, forgot to mention WHY I stated multiple runs - the reason is that after you have done multiple runs, I think it's easier to see the pattern that anyone playing sensibly will follow. As for my FIRST runs on new characters, the same pattern/rule applies: Out of whatever 5+ pistols (or insert weapon of choice) you have available to you at any given character level, only ONE of them will be the best, and you will (if smart) stick to that weapon and only change it for higher level iterations of the exact same weapon. 

Regardless of how much "choice" you have, you're only going to stick to one particular model, unless something new and superior pops up once you hit higher character levels. If you're doing a first run, what it amounts to is this: oh hey, this  is quite obviously the best pistol (or insert weapon of choice) with superior damage, firing rate and accuracy, so I will stick to   I-X because all these other manufacturers' weapons suck in comparison. Realistically, you're only choosing from a small fraction of the available number of pistols (or insert weapon of choice) over the life of your character. In my time (on an initial run, starting from level 1), I think I only really switched between three-four models (with DIFFERENT names, not that I-X crap) at most with regards to pistols (same thing applies to other weapon categories). Even early on in a fresh run, there was a lot of junk to get rid of, so that it became more chore than fun - especially since I'm fairly compulsive about opening containers and looting everything.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 06 février 2010 - 05:22 .

[mhenders]

Drakron wrote...

And that is one of reason why ME2 fails as a RPG, the "upgrade" race exist but that part of the carrot-on-a-stick that keeps the players going forward, ME2 is just meh as there is almost nothing of the sort as everything is served on a platter.

What upgrade race in ME1? Certainly not for weapons. You earned a million credits, you got you got your Spectre weapons and you were done. For armor, you found your Colossus or your Predator L/M/H and... you were done. You could fiddle with the mod slots on each item, but for almost all of them had an optimal combination that you'd acquire relatively early in the game. And it just got worse on your second playthrough on the same character. There was literally no possibility of obtaining any interesting items at all.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that ME1 had the worse itemization of any BioWare game, ever. There were hundreds, if not thousands, of items that were completely useless but that had to be actively managed and disposed of with a profoundly cumbersome inventory UI. And ME1's "classic RPG" inventory/itemization concepts made no sense for the story. Would Shepherd and his squad REALLY schlep around a pile of 150 weapons/armors/bullets/mods with him at all times? Or would they pick their weapons and configure their armor before starting their mission, using the guns that they have on board? "Suspension of Disbelief" is a far more crucial element of making a great RPG than the mechanics of the inventory system, and ME2 makes a lot more sense in that regard.

To be clear, I don't think ME2's system is great. It's sort of a half-assed crafting system in which you can farm materials to produce a tiered sequence of boring but useful improvements to your guns and armor. But... anything would be better than what was in ME1.

[Halfheart]

Both sides have a point.

On the one hand ME2 allows for greater visual difference (even if we are stuck to heavy crap and the differences between the armor pieces are very negligible).

On the other hand, ME1 had a greater variation of stats, allowed customization of squadmates, and the mods slots allowed players a variety of different play styles.

I would say that neither system on its own is very good, a hybrid of the two might be better. Plus lack of consistency from ME1 to ME2 concerning squadmates needing armor is very disconcerting.

[ItsFreakinJesus]

Coldcall01 wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

Coldcall01 wrote...

Bollocks. There were way more than three models of armour. I played the game numerous playthroughs so please dont lie to my face about the armour in the game. Some may have been very similar other than small design differences and colour but they still looked and felt different enough.

In ME2 one could then argue there is only one armour with slight variations.

Either way you look at it ME1 was way more customisable..the maths proves it.

lol, believe what you will

Its not about faith. You can either do simple maths and come to the empiracal conclusion or you can have blind faith. You have blind faith and are deluding yourself.

You're right, there is more than three.  There's light armor, and medium and heavy armor for each gender, bringing the default count to five.  Then there's a second model variant for each armor set (one basic set and the set with the ripple things on the midsection), bringing the count to ten.  Then you have an assload of different colors.

You can create more than ten sets of armor in ME2, especially if you take into account the various colors you can make your armor. 

Simply put, ME2 has more depth when it comes to armor.  ME1's number is inflated by pallete swaps.

[CatatonicMan]

They should have left weapon/armor mods in; they would have been extra useful when you have several weapons that actually have some meaningful differences. They also should have given armor more choices, since the ones you can get now don't really add much to the game.

They also should have left in the cool down of weapons along with the ammo gimmick. You would have heatsinks that would heat up and cool down on their own, as well as the option of changing out an overheated sink if you needed to keep shooting.

Now that would have been a reasonable alternative to the blandness they decided to put in.

Modifié par CatatonicMan, 06 février 2010 - 05:45 .

[TJSolo]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I would think that most sensible people will always go after the best armor. I wear Colossus, and anyone in my group who can wear it ALSO wears Colossus (as for Wrex & Tali, they were wearing whatever the heck was the best). Regarding weapons in particular: having the "choice" between a bunch of crappy weapons that I will never use in my lifetime unless I lose about a hundred IQ points and suddenly decide to toss all my Spectre gear out the nearest airlock is meaningless, pointless and just wastes my time. In the case of ME1, I think the amount of "choice" was overrated. Woohoo, Phoenix armor. Boy, was I ever glad THAT was available - NOT.

So from day one on your first save you and your team were in Colossus gear with Spectre weapons?

If you only compare the inventory system AFTER you have gotten the best gear and ignore the progression you made to acquiring it of course it would seem worse than what it was.

Did you read the entire post? You clipped out the second part where I clearly, clearly stated "MULTIPLE RUNS" (let me put that in caps so that it is not missed this time). Oh yes, forgot to mention WHY I stated multiple runs - the reason is that after you have done multiple runs, I think it's easier to see the pattern that anyone playing sensibly will follow. As for my FIRST runs on new characters, the same pattern/rule applies: Out of whatever 5+ pistols (or insert weapon of choice) you have available to you at any given character level, only ONE of them will be the best, and you will (if smart) stick to that weapon and only change it for higher level iterations of the exact same weapon. 

Regardless of how much "choice" you have, you're only going to stick to one particular model, unless something new and superior pops up once you hit higher character levels. If you're doing a first run, what it amounts to is this: oh hey, this  is quite obviously the best pistol (or insert weapon of choice) with superior damage, firing rate and accuracy, so I will stick to   I-X because all these other manufacturers' weapons suck in comparison. Realistically, you're only choosing from a small fraction of the available number of pistols (or insert weapon of choice) over the life of your character. In my time (on an initial run, starting from level 1), I think I only really switched between three-four models (with DIFFERENT names, not that I-X crap) at most with regards to pistols (same thing applies to other weapon categories). Even early on in a fresh run, there was a lot of junk to get rid of, so that it became more chore than fun - especially since I'm fairly compulsive about opening containers and looting everything.

Yes I read the post.
You have progressed out of the normal gear progression by doing a new game+ and carrying over the best gear.
By getting rid(selling) the useless gear is how you progressed to affording the spectre weapons and Col armor.
Also the weapons that you got from killing stuff was random anyway so until I was able to afford spectre gear I was looking for whatever upgrade I could get.

You don't normally start with the best gear. It happens gradually as you upgrade and sell garage gear.
Once you have it and do new game+ of course everything you get from that point will be useless.
Hell on my new game+ in ME2 I haven't changed any of my weapons or armor pieces and I can't sell any weapon I reobtain for credits.

I would rather have a lot of choices(some being redundant) than very limited choices.

[TJSolo]

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...

Coldcall01 wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

Coldcall01 wrote...

Bollocks. There were way more than three models of armour. I played the game numerous playthroughs so please dont lie to my face about the armour in the game. Some may have been very similar other than small design differences and colour but they still looked and felt different enough.

In ME2 one could then argue there is only one armour with slight variations.

Either way you look at it ME1 was way more customisable..the maths proves it.

lol, believe what you will

Its not about faith. You can either do simple maths and come to the empiracal conclusion or you can have blind faith. You have blind faith and are deluding yourself.

You're right, there is more than three.  There's light armor, and medium and heavy armor for each gender, bringing the default count to five.  Then there's a second model variant for each armor set (one basic set and the set with the ripple things on the midsection), bringing the count to ten.  Then you have an assload of different colors.

You can create more than ten sets of armor in ME2, especially if you take into account the various colors you can make your armor. 

Simply put, ME2 has more depth when it comes to armor.  ME1's number is inflated by pallete swaps.

So you say ME1 inflates numbers because of pallete swaps but ME2 has more options becayse of various colors.

yea...

[AtreiyaN7]

Also, can I point out that not only do you actually have a greater number of (meaningfully) different weapons in ME2, counting the heavy weapons, but that a number of them are actually unique in feel and function? I'm a Vanguard, and after choosing my bonus weapon, I picked the Claymore. Now I have THREE shotguns with distinctly different firing characteristics or abilities (along with a difference in maximum rounds), AND they are not carbon copies of each other. Example:

• X-23d Katana Shotgun: advantages - effective against to barriers and shields; disadvantage - weak against armor
• X-27d Scimitar Assault Shotgun: advantages - same as the Katana but with a rapid rate of fire and the ability to load multiple rounds loaded in the chamber; disadvantage - same as the Katana
• X-300d Claymore Heavy Shotgun: advantages - does high damage (hits like a truck) and is effective against barrier, shields AND armor; disadvantage - low ammo capacity (one round fired at a time and requires immediate reload)

These weapons are unique and behave very differently. No matter how many models and versions you had of a shotgun in ME1 they all fired the same, and they all felt the same regardless of the model and iteration. If you blindfolded yourself and grabbed one, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference (except in the amount of damage ). In my eyes, I have more UNIQUE choices in ME2 than in ME1. You have at least two weapons per category minimum, usually with different characteristics, and those choices are far more meaningful than sheer numbers in ME1. I consider it an issue of whether or not you you prefer qualitative differences to be more important than the (alleged) fun of having sheer numbers. I always prefer quality over quantity, and that's the same reason I prefer the new side quests over the ME1 planetary side quests (with their cookie-cutter layouts). For some people, the change is simply too drastic for them to overcome their innate preferences/prejudices/whatever. I wouldn't be against some kind of hybrid system or adding more weapons to each category (so long as they are each unique). I just don't want to revert to what passed for "choice" in ME1 with weapons that might as well be the same for all intents and purposes.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 06 février 2010 - 05:57 .

[AtreiyaN7]

TJSolo wrote...
Yes I read the post.
You have progressed out of the normal gear progression by doing a new game+ and carrying over the best gear.
By getting rid(selling) the useless gear is how you progressed to affording the spectre weapons and Col armor.
Also the weapons that you got from killing stuff was random anyway so until I was able to afford spectre gear I was looking for whatever upgrade I could get.

You don't normally start with the best gear. It happens gradually as you upgrade and sell garage gear.
Once you have it and do new game+ of course everything you get from that point will be useless.
Hell on my new game+ in ME2 I haven't changed any of my weapons or armor pieces and I can't sell any weapon I reobtain for credits.

I would rather have a lot of choices(some being redundant) than very limited choices.

And I believe that what I essentially said through examples was that even in progression (during an inital run starting at level 1), you have what amounts to limited choice within character level brackets, and I'm not going to repeat all that. It's not just "some" redundancy as you  say, it's major, major redundancy. See my other post for the shotgun example. It's really a matter of quality over quantity in my opinion.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 06 février 2010 - 05:55 .

[TJSolo]

Ignoring the fact that in ME1 you could use weapon mods to get the same performances out of the guns.

[TJSolo]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

TJSolo wrote...
Yes I read the post.
You have progressed out of the normal gear progression by doing a new game+ and carrying over the best gear.
By getting rid(selling) the useless gear is how you progressed to affording the spectre weapons and Col armor.
Also the weapons that you got from killing stuff was random anyway so until I was able to afford spectre gear I was looking for whatever upgrade I could get.

You don't normally start with the best gear. It happens gradually as you upgrade and sell garage gear.
Once you have it and do new game+ of course everything you get from that point will be useless.
Hell on my new game+ in ME2 I haven't changed any of my weapons or armor pieces and I can't sell any weapon I reobtain for credits.

I would rather have a lot of choices(some being redundant) than very limited choices.

And I believe that what I essentially said through examples was that even in progression (during an inital run starting at level 1), you have what amounts to limited choice within character level brackets, and I'm not going to repeat all that. It's not just "some" redundancy as you  say, it's major, major redundancy. See my other post for the shotgun example. It's really a matter of quality over quantity in my opinion.

There isn't much difference in the two starting shotguns; the first is more damage per shot but lower ammo
and the second is less damage per shot but more ammo.
While the Claymore is the spectre class of the bunch in that is does more damage and has a median ammo capacity.
Rate of fire,  ammo capacity and damage are the performance differences in ME2, obviously.

That means some people would change shotguns 3 times or just 2 in the course of ME2. Not a lot of variety or choices.

[AtreiyaN7]

TJSolo wrote...

Ignoring the fact that in ME1 you could use weapon mods to get the same performances out of the guns.

If you're stating that mods could essentially transform a weapon in a truly significant way in ME1 in terms of feel, I find that highly debatable. Unless you get that one high-end ammo mod that does 300% damage (or whatever it was - can't remember off the top of my head) and instantaneously overheats your weapon, the firing rate doesn't change (only marksman-type abilities change your rate of fire otherwise). You either adds mods that help with overheating, slightly reduce the kick or change ammo. Do the weapons feel noticeably different or function that much differently even if you apply mods? Not really in my estimation. I always stuck with combat optics, frictionless materials and X ammo on each weapon, because there was no reason to choose any others.

How many people actually carried around multiple versions of the same pistol (or insert weapon of choice), each one loaded with different rounds? Even if they were carrying around multiple ammo mods to swap in & out, I wonder how many people actually went through the trouble of constant swapping. Since you keep getting a constant stream of (generally undesirable) loot in ME1, it's just not possible to easily organize or keep track of anything, even if you wanted to.

[StormbringerGT]

Well after playing Mass Effect 1 too many times, I've noticed each weight class of human armor only comes in two different designs. so thats 2 lights, 2 mediums and 2 heavies. The difference just being color and maybe texture.



I do agree though I wished to see more different types of armor.

[Inarai]

Technically, the model in ME2 is the more complex system, as it is n*n*n*n possibilities, where n is armour pieces in a slot. Complexity is considered to be about possibilities for values of n as n increases.

In terms of programming/time complexity, anyways.

This also means that should they add more peices, they have a much more robust system.

Modifié par Inarai, 06 février 2010 - 06:18 .

[jbg927]

both sides have great points in this argument. I enjoy changing the color of my armor and all that fancy stuff, but I miss having a ton of armors to choose from! I miss looting something with the anticipation that I might get the next best armor/weapon!



But once you get the best armor, you stick with it, but atleast there is a choice at all!



We need way more armor pieces in ME2 in order for the customization to be better! And these pieces need higher bonuses than just 5-10%!

[AtreiyaN7]

TJSolo wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

TJSolo wrote...
Yes I read the post.
You have progressed out of the normal gear progression by doing a new game+ and carrying over the best gear.
By getting rid(selling) the useless gear is how you progressed to affording the spectre weapons and Col armor.
Also the weapons that you got from killing stuff was random anyway so until I was able to afford spectre gear I was looking for whatever upgrade I could get.

You don't normally start with the best gear. It happens gradually as you upgrade and sell garage gear.
Once you have it and do new game+ of course everything you get from that point will be useless.
Hell on my new game+ in ME2 I haven't changed any of my weapons or armor pieces and I can't sell any weapon I reobtain for credits.

I would rather have a lot of choices(some being redundant) than very limited choices.

And I believe that what I essentially said through examples was that even in progression (during an inital run starting at level 1), you have what amounts to limited choice within character level brackets, and I'm not going to repeat all that. It's not just "some" redundancy as you  say, it's major, major redundancy. See my other post for the shotgun example. It's really a matter of quality over quantity in my opinion.

There isn't much difference in the two starting shotguns; the first is more damage per shot but lower ammo
and the second is less damage per shot but more ammo.
While the Claymore is the spectre class of the bunch in that is does more damage and has a median ammo capacity.
Rate of fire,  ammo capacity and damage are the performance differences in ME2, obviously.

That means some people would change shotguns 3 times or just 2 in the course of ME2. Not a lot of variety or choices.

Yes, well we could argue all night about it, but I'd rather not. I said it's a matter of quality over sheer numbers for me. The Claymore and the base shotgun/upgraded model are substantially different in FEEL - F-E-E-L. That's why I consider them to be unique and to give me more options on missions. It is entirely possible that I might want to take the Scimitar over the Claymore depending on the situation. In ME1, I was always going to stick with one shotgun and never swtich out (if I ever bothered to use it, which I didn't because it was far easier to spam a pistol and kill everything *snort*). Just because we can use a Claymore doesn't mean we always want to as Vanguards. From what I've read, some people prefer the Scimitar for its rate of fire over the Claymore which deals more damage in one shot but is slower. Admittedly, you probably don't want the base weapon itself later on, but all the same, the Katana and the Scimitar work decidedly differently from the Claymore. Also, as I said, the heavy weapons are very much different in feel. Are you completely discounting them? Using a Nuke is not like using the Collector beam weapon, nor is a Blackstorm heavy weapon similar to either of those two weapons (or the grenade launcher or the missile launcher). I vastly prefer the selection available to the ten million identical things I had in ME1, even with mods.

[TJSolo]

The feel is not there, it is just a choice of good, better , best for the weapons in ME2.



I have not used the shotguns. But for comparisons sake, snipers. I like base one it has 1 round and low ammo but powerful, the second one doesn't do much damage but has more ammo and multiple rounds, while the third one has one round and does the most damage.



So for my character I only ended up using the base sniper and the final one.

Heavy weapons aren't in ME1 and are a clear improvement in selection.

[Taritu]

woops, wrong topic.

Modifié par Taritu, 06 février 2010 - 06:47 .