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[Collider]

XtremegamerHK47 wrote...

What was your guys race/class?
For me, I was Human/Warrior.
I know, probably dull in your opinon. In any RPG, if I have a choice of race, its human, and my class is always combat efficient.

Human Mage

[Nivenus]

I was a human mage on my first playthrough of DA:O. Planning to go back for a dwarf at some point - I hear their origins are interesting.




I had a thought on my mind regarding Ashley. What religion do you suppose she practices? We know that she's religious from her comments but the game (purposefully, I imagine) is vague as to the exact nature of her beliefs. I'm sure this topic has come up before so I'm interested in hearing what the regulars have to say on the subject.

Personally, I can spot a few clues. First of all, her use of the word "God" to denote the divine. God, capital G, in the singular, is almost exclusively used in monotheistic religions, though exceptions exist (e.g., Hindus - some of whom are monotheistic - sometimes use God as a synonym for Brahman even when accepting the existence of other deities). This is a pretty big clue which indicates that she's probably a monotheist (Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Mazdaist, Sikh, Baha'i certain branches of Vaishnavism) or at the very least a henotheist (early Judaism as one example, certain forms of Hinduism).

Other clues exist though, which can help us narrow her religion down further. She, for instance, clearly believes in a heaven of some kind since she talks about the dead being in a "better place." This throws Judaism (which only has a very loose concept of the afterlife) and any form of Hinduism (which has a ladder of spiritual reincarnation and succession) right out the window as the afterlife of these religions doesn't fit into that sort of picture. Out of the remaining details we can form a few clues.

Of the prominent religions that remain: Christianity, Islam, Mazdism, Sikhim, and Baha'ism, the two largest are clearly Christianity and Islam. Ashley Williams' personal background provides few clues. Amaterasu is a Japanese goddess but this likely has little effect on her actual religion since we've clearly eliminated Shinto and Buddhism, the two most dominant Japanese religions. Her last name is Williams, which implies European ancestry, which suggests in turn Christianity, but we shouldn't forget how old ethnic divisions have begun to collapse in the ME universe, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility that Ashley is Muslim or Sikh (or even Mazdist or Baha'i). However, if I had to bet, I'd say she's Christian.

Which of course, still leaves denomination an open question but any speculation beyond that point is completely baseless as far as I can tell.

What do you guys think? I'm sure this topic must have come up at least once before.

Also, please vote if you haven't. Sorry that you can only pick one.

Modifié par Nivenus, 29 avril 2010 - 06:28 .

[Collider]

Muslim? Unless she's very liberal, she is supposed to cover her hair when in the presence of people who are not her family.



Really, it's possible that the writers did not even give her a religion. After all, this will likely never be explored in the game, as going into real world religion like this, especially in the time setting, is dangerous. It's possible that she has no religon, but is deist. God and heaven are not exclusive to the three largest monotheistic religions.

[drunken pyromaniac]

Nivenus wrote...

I was a human mage on my first playthrough of DA:O. Planning to go back for a dwarf at some point - I hear their origins are interesting.




I had a thought on my mind regarding Ashley. What religion do you suppose she practices? We know that she's religious from her comments but the game (purposefully, I imagine) is vague as to the exact nature of her beliefs. I'm sure this topic has come up before so I'm interested in hearing what the regulars have to say on the subject.

Personally, I can spot a few clues. First of all, her use of the word "God" to denote the divine. God, capital G, in the singular, is almost exclusively used in monotheistic religions, though exceptions exist (e.g., Hindus - some of whom are monotheistic - sometimes use God as a synonym for Brahman even when accepting the existence of other deities). This is a pretty big clue which indicates that she's probably a monotheist (Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Mazdaist, Sikh, Baha'i certain branches of Vaishnavism) or at the very least a henotheist (early Judaism as one example, certain forms of Hinduism).

Other clues exist though, which can help us narrow her religion down further. She, for instance, clearly believes in a heaven of some kind since she talks about the dead being in a "better place." This throws Judaism (which only has a very loose concept of the afterlife) and any form of Hinduism (which has a ladder of spiritual reincarnation and succession) right out the window as the afterlife of these religions doesn't fit into that sort of picture. Out of the remaining details we can form a few clues.

Of the prominent religions that remain: Christianity, Islam, Mazdism, Sikhim, and Baha'ism, the two largest are clearly Christianity and Islam. Ashley Williams' personal background provides few clues. Amaterasu is a Japanese goddess but this likely has little effect on her actual religion since we've clearly eliminated Shinto and Buddhism, the two most dominant Japanese religions. Her last name is Williams, which implies European ancestry, which suggests in turn Christianity, but we shouldn't forget how old ethnic divisions have begun to collapse in the ME universe, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility that Ashley is Muslim or Sikh (or even Mazdist or Baha'i). However, if I had to bet, I'd say she's Christian.

Which of course, still leaves denomination an open question but any speculation beyond that point is completely baseless as far as I can tell.

What do you guys think? I'm sure this topic must have come up at least once before.

Also, please vote if you haven't. Sorry that you can only pick one.

I believe we settled on Roman Catholicism (from her name and partially Latina background), Anglicanism (again from her name and clues in her appearence), or some sort of deist (most likely if Bioware doesn't want to offend).

Modifié par drunken pyromaniac, 29 avril 2010 - 06:38 .

[Nivenus]

Collider wrote...

Muslim? Unless she's very liberal, she is supposed to cover her hair when in the presence of people who are not her family.

I imagine Muslims may liberalize by the 22nd century. Not all of them, of course, but in Turkey and Lebanon (two fairly liberal countries) it's not that unusual to see Muslim women with their hair uncovered. The Qur'an itself only says that you must dress modestly, which I think Ashley does. The hair-covering, while commonly accepted, is from the less than wholly canonical hadiths.

Collider wrote...

Really, it's possible that the writers did not even give her a religion.

I'm not saying they did necessarily. I'm simply asking what the local opinion is.

Collider wrote...

It's possible that she has no religon, but is deist. God and heaven are not exclusive to the three largest monotheistic religions.

Deism is a fair possibility and one I hadn't considered, but while deities are not exclusive to monotheistic religions the term "God" - which she uses and which denotes an all-powerful, supreme being rather than simply a "god" - is with a few exceptions (which I outline). I also did clearly lay out that the Abrahamic faiths weren't the only monotheistic religions - Mazdism and Vaishnavism are as well.

[drunken pyromaniac]

I think it rather unlikely she's Muslim. She bears no traits in her appearence of practicing Muslim populations and her name is anglophone. Plus, the game is made chiefly for english speakers, which would go to the assumption she's Christian or deist of some kind.

[Collider]

Nivenus wrote...


I imagine Muslims may liberalize by the 22nd century. Not all of them, of course, but in Turkey and Lebanon (two fairly liberal countries) it's not that unusual to see Muslim women with their hair uncovered. The Qur'an itself only says that you must dress modestly, which I think Ashley does. The hair-covering, while commonly accepted, is from the less than wholly canonical hadiths.


I'm not saying they did necessarily. I'm simply asking what the local opinion is.


Deism is a fair possibility and one I hadn't considered, but while deities are not exclusive to monotheistic religions the term "God" - which she uses and which denotes an all-powerful, supreme being rather than simply a "god" - is with a few exceptions (which I outline). I also did clearly lay out that the Abrahamic faiths weren't the only monotheistic religions - Mazdism and Vaishnavism are as well.

You're right, you did.

I have seen deists use God instead god. In fact, I have never seen one used God in lower case. Deists also sometimes personify the God they believe in, whether it's as simple as believing that God created the universe and left it be, or that God has intentions.

[Nivenus]

drunken pyromaniac wrote...

I think it rather unlikely she's Muslim. She bears no traits in her appearence of practicing Muslim populations and her name is anglophone. Plus, the game is made chiefly for english speakers, which would go to the assumption she's Christian or deist of some kind.

I agree. I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility, but I don't think she is (though it's worth noting that Muslims are a growing population in Britain).

Collider wrote...

I have seen deists use God instead god. In fact, I have never seen one used God in lower case. Deists also sometimes personify the God they believe in, whether it's as simple as believing that God created the universe and left it be, or that God has intentions. 

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. I would include deists among those who believe in a supreme being above all others. They simply believe it's impossible to know it (or Him, if you prefer).

[drunken pyromaniac]

Nivenus wrote...

drunken pyromaniac wrote...

I think it rather unlikely she's Muslim. She bears no traits in her appearence of practicing Muslim populations and her name is anglophone. Plus, the game is made chiefly for english speakers, which would go to the assumption she's Christian or deist of some kind.

I agree. I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility, but I don't think she is (though it's worth noting that Muslims are a growing population in Britain).

I think we can assume by her accent that her ancestors came from North America. As of now, there are only I believe a million or two American Muslims. Plus, she looks to be Northwestern European mixed with Latinos. I'm pretty sure there aren't many Latinos in Britain.

[Collider]

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear.

No need to apologize.

I would include deists among those who believe in a supreme being above all others. They simply believe it's impossible to know it (or Him, if you prefer).

I'm fairly certain those are agnostics, not deists.

[Nivenus]

Collider wrote...

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear.

No need to apologize.

I would include deists among those who believe in a supreme being above all others. They simply believe it's impossible to know it (or Him, if you prefer).

I'm fairly certain those are agnostics, not deists.

Wikipedia wrote... (hey, it's almost as accurate as Britannica - and good for a quick reference)

Deism (/ˈdi:iz(ə)m/[1] or /ˈdē-ˌi-zəm/)[2] is a religious and philosophical belief that a supreme being created the universe, and that this (and religious truth in general) can be determined using reason and observation of the natural world alone, without the need for either faith or organized religion. Many Deists reject the notion that God intervenes in human affairs, for example through miracles and revelations. These views contrast with the dependence on revelations, miracles, and faith found in many Jewish, Christian, Islamic and other theistic teachings.

Deists typically reject most supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and tend to assert that God (or "The Supreme Architect") has a plan for the universe that is not altered either by God intervening in the affairs of human life or by suspending the natural laws of the universe. What organized religions see as divine revelation and holy books, most deists see as interpretations made by other humans, rather than as authoritative sources.

Deism became prominent in the 17th and 18th centuries during the Age of Enlightenment, especially in what is now the United Kingdom, France, United States and Ireland, mostly among those raised as Christians who found they could not believe in either a triune God, the divinity of Jesus, miracles, or the inerrancy of scriptures, but who did believe in one god. Initially it did not form any congregations, but in time deism strongly influenced other religious groups, such as Unitarianism and Universalism, which developed from it. It continues to this day in the forms of classical deism and modern deism.

Agnostics simply are open to the concept of the divine, period. They have no clear-cut opinion one way or another. Deists believe there is a divine and they're pretty sure it's pretty freaking supreme. They just think it doesn't really care about / intervene in the world the way that most religions do.

EDIT: 

drunken pyromaniac wrote...

I think we can assume by her accent that her ancestors came from North America. As of now, there are only I believe a million or two American Muslims. Plus, she looks to be Northwestern European mixed with Latinos. I'm pretty sure there aren't many Latinos in Britain.

Well... Anderson's British. Just saying.

Modifié par Nivenus, 29 avril 2010 - 07:08 .

[Collider]

I am speaking of the "They simply believe it's impossible to know it (or Him, if you prefer)" part. Those are agnostics. Unless you mean know personally, instead of knowing of existence.

"can be determined using reason and observation of the natural world alone" pretty much goes against the impossible to know thing, unless as aforementioned if you mean know personally.

Modifié par Collider, 29 avril 2010 - 07:06 .

[Nivenus]

Collider wrote...

I am speaking of the "They simply believe it's impossible to know it (or Him, if you prefer)" part. Those are agnostics.

"can be determined using reason and observation of the natural world alone" pretty much goes against the impossible to know thing.

Point. My phrasing could have been better. I simply meant that they believed that you could relate to the divine in the way that most religions offer.

If I had to declare my religion I'd say I'm closest to being a Deist. It's a little more complicated than that, though.

[Collider]

That sounds interesting to know the reasoning for.

[drunken pyromaniac]

Nivenus wrote...

drunken pyromaniac wrote...

I think we can assume by her accent that her ancestors came from North America. As of now, there are only I believe a million or two American Muslims. Plus, she looks to be Northwestern European mixed with Latinos. I'm pretty sure there aren't many Latinos in Britain.

Well... Anderson's British. Just saying.

Come on, you know that's just an oversight. The VA is American. It's safe to say her parents or perhaps grandparents were born in the US or Canada.

Modifié par drunken pyromaniac, 29 avril 2010 - 07:11 .

[Nivenus]

She's probably North American. But I don't think we can say for sure. After all, very, very few of the humans you encounter in the game have accents that aren't North American in origin - even if they're from the colonies or other parts of Earth (say hi to Kaidan and Anderson). I don't think we can rely on character accents to gauge where people are from, in the end.

EDIT: 

Collider wrote...

That sounds interesting to know the reasoning for.

Don't want to go too heavily into it because it's off-topic but here it is. I'd call myself a Deist because I believe in a supreme divine force and that it's essentially beyond human experience. I also believe that it cannot be identified in human terms such as gender or by name. I also, believe, however, that there are lesser divine forces at work, a web of which humanity and all sapients are a part.

I also believe that while it's power may be greatly exaggerated that the rituals and traditions of most traditional religions have some worth beyond that which most Deists, atheists, or agnostics would grant them. I do not believe, however, that any of them has access to the single, uncorrupted truth. I'm not even sure if I believe that's possible.

There. I think that's brief enough to get by the rules on no serious religion talk.

Modifié par Nivenus, 29 avril 2010 - 07:20 .

[drunken pyromaniac]

Nivenus wrote...

She's probably North American. But I don't think we can say for sure. After all, very, very few of the humans you encounter in the game have accents that aren't North American in origin - even if they're from the colonies or other parts of Earth (say hi to Kaidan and Anderson). I don't think we can rely on character accents to gauge where people are from, in the end.

It's obvious, down to the slang she uses. That's a pretty big clue right there. They used an American for Anderson because they couldn't think of any Brit that would sound right in the role. Not to mention he's supposed to be part Native American, that says to me he has an American parent. Kaidan never says were he was born he just mentions his mother being in Singapore at the time of the accident. That doesn't mean he's from there. Plus, feature-wise he's blatantly Caucasian. Singaporese, not so much.

Modifié par drunken pyromaniac, 29 avril 2010 - 07:31 .

[Nivenus]

drunken pyromaniac wrote...

Oh, please. It's obvious, down to the slang she uses. That's a pretty big clue right there. They used an American for Anderson because they couldn't think of any Brit that would sound right in the role. Not to mention he's supposed to be part Native American, that says to me he has an American parent. Kaidan never says were he was born he just mentions his mother being in Singapore at the time of the accident. That doesn't mean he's from there. Plus, feature-wise he's blatantly Caucasian. Singaporese, not so much.

Name suggests he's Russian. Plus, he's pretty tan. Doesn't mean of course that he isn't European (my skin's a shade darker than my ancestors too - it's the sun, y'know), but I'm still not convinced the voice acting is a good indicator.

Again, I'd be willing to bet that (some of) Ashley's immediate ancestors were from North America. She herself is, of course, from Amaterasu (which automatically, in my mind, sets the slang as a bad indicator since, if anything, she should be speaking Japanese slang and calling Shepard bakka, whenever he does something stupid).

[Collider]

I always suspected that Kaidan may have some asian in him.

[drunken pyromaniac]

Nivenus wrote...


Name suggests he's Russian. Plus, he's pretty tan. Doesn't mean of course that he isn't European (my skin's a shade darker than my ancestors too - it's the sun, y'know), but I'm still not convinced the voice acting is a good indicator.

Again, I'd be willing to bet that (some of) Ashley's immediate ancestors were from North America. She herself is, of course, from Amaterasu (which automatically, in my mind, sets the slang as a bad indicator since, if anything, she should be speaking Japanese slang and calling Shepard bakka, whenever he does something stupid).

Well, I think his mother was just passing through when it happened. All colonies are administerd by the Alliance which I'm guessing would be controlled by the Europeans, North American Union, and perhaps China. Various god's name are fairly common planet names in ME. look at all the Greek names, I don't think they've set up any colonies. lol
She uses terms such as "scuttlebutt" and "bag 'em and tag 'em".Very much American military slang.

[Nivenus]

Collider wrote...

I always suspected that Kaidan may have some asian in him.

For some reason, I have too, though I see little evidence for it. Maybe it's the name, though Kaidan, as far as I can tell, is a neologism with no real-life origin.

EDIT:

drunken pyromaniac wrote...

Well, I think his mother was just passing through when it happened. All colonies are administerd by the Alliance which I'm guessing would be controlled by the Europeans, North American Union, and perhaps China. Various god's name are fairly common planet names in ME. look at all the Greek names, I don't think they've set up any colonies. lol
She uses terms such as "scuttlebutt" and "bag 'em and tag 'em".Very much American military slang.

My biggest issue with the using voices as an indicator of Earth-ancestor origin is that it puts a very heavy bias in favor of the United North American States - particularly those from the West Coast of the modern US and Canada. I simply don't accept the fact that North America dominates the Alliance that heavily. India and China are more likely to contribute a substantial amount of personnel and resources, given current trends, and Europe should certainly be more prominent. Even if North America did, Mexico should have a much larger representation based on demographic trends than the US and Canada.

Besides Kaidan and Anderson, another good example of a character whose accent clearly has nothing to do with their character is Kasumi. Not only does she have a Japanese name, but she actually refers to herself as Japanese. Realistically, she should be elongating her vowels and slurring her "r"s and "l"s but she doesn't.

But then again, for that matter, I find it highly doubtful that anyone in the ME universe is really speaking modern, North American English.

Modifié par Nivenus, 29 avril 2010 - 07:44 .