10 réponses à ce sujet

[Frumyfrenzy]

Hi!

I have some thoughts
about the design of fights I'd like to share and a few questions at the end of my post. My position is this: Longer fights with fewer enemies are much better than short fights with lot sof enemies.An example: If a fight lasts 40 seconds, then I would prefer having only 2 enemies with appropriate high HP  rather than 10 enemies. Why do I think so?

One of my favourite fights in Dragon Age was against the ogre in the Tower of Ishal. Fights with powerful single enemies generally were most fun (but certainly a game can't consist solely of single enemy fights). What made it good? It required me to position my party and use the pause button for special commands several times throughout the fight. Despite that, I never was confused or lost track about what's going on. This ogre was properly introduced with a cutscene as the boss of this tower, his appearance and his animations were unique, especially compared to the waves of darkspawn. At the end of this long and unusual fight, I got rewarded with an awesome (!) finisher in slow motion (and loot of course).

Most fights however don't tend to be long. Often there are a lot of creatures to be killed, but none of them live longer than a few seconds. Most of them even die within 3 or 4 hits. Most of the time my party spends running from enemy to enemy IN a fight, to a point where the fighting itself is hardly recognizable. Dragon Age has such beautiful animations, but most of the time I spend running from enemy to enemy. (again: IN fights). I keep thinking: Wouldn't it be great, if there were noticably fewer enemies per fight but with noticably more HP? Wouldn't it be great, if they can't die within 3 hits or 2 seconds?

Aren't fewer enemies per fight with a lot more HP better than a lot of enemies which can hardly be recognized as such? Would you, in a 40 second fight, prefer having 10 enemies or  2 enemies?


thx for reading

Modifié par Frumyfrenzy, 05 février 2010 - 05:18 .

[mosspit]

imo there are nice fights with a single high hp boss. Fade demon and broodmother are very atypical boss fights. Lol Broodmother feels like a FF final boss in all its changing form glory. I do agree that these fights are enjoyable but I do feel that the occurence of normal mobs and high hp bosses are acceptable. It will be better if they can introduce more variety in regular mobs though. Fighting the same darkspawn lackeys over and over again is quite repititve.

[Frumyfrenzy]

Of course, there has to be some differences between types of fights. But to me those 2-seconds-to-live darkspawn packs feel too extreme. Bossfights generally differ from normal fights by their introducing cutscenes, unique appearances and animations, their role in the plot etc.

[x-president]

I don't mind bigger groups because this causes you to spread your team out and focus on different enemies or control the group of enemies.  Rather then all 4 attack this enmey till it dies, then all 4 attack this enemy until it dies.

Smaller groups take less strategy to beat imo.


But I like a good boss fight.  I especially like Boss fights that force you to move around.  One of the boss fights I really like is the Final Battle in the Circle Tower.

I really like the overall feel of that fight and how you have to try and save the helpless mages.  That just adds a lot of fun and a additioanl goal instead of just killing.  Plus you get a big boss and weaker enemies to deal with.  It is a very fun fight.


I guess I like a mix of different setups. 

[Upper_Krust]

Frumyfrenzy wrote...

I keep thinking: Wouldn't it be great, if there were noticably fewer enemies per fight but with noticably more HP? Wouldn't it be great, if they can't die within 3 hits or 2 seconds?

Aren't fewer enemies per fight with a lot more HP better than a lot of enemies which can hardly be recognized as such? Would you, in a 40 second fight, prefer having 10 enemies or  2 enemies?

I think you have the right problem but the wrong solution.

The reason fights with multiple enemies are generally less satisfying is because you don't have to think to defeat them, just act. With more powerful foes you have to make sure your tactics are right, positioning is right, your equipment is right and so forth. Battles that make you think are ultimately more rewarding.

The solution is not make all the enemies super tough, but instead to give them one or all of the following 

1. Strategic advantage.
2. Unique Power
3. Tactical advantage
4. A Formation
5. Synergy with other monsters

For instance we could give the Hurlocks a 'spartan' phalanx (or even a testudo) formation. This gives them a strategic advantage of gaining a bonus to defense and armor for each Hurlock adjacent to them. The leader could have a health poultice that he drinks a few seconds after he is dropped below 50% Health, giving him a tactical advantage. The unit of Hurlocks are being healed by a Genlock Emissary, so the two 'units' have a synergy.

Or something like that.

thx for reading

My pleasure.

[x-president]

One thing I wish we had in tactics was a formation setting.  That would have been so much better to have different formations going into battle.

[mosspit]

Hmmm I remember a few battles where the enemies have superior tatical adv. eg. a yellow mage on a hanging cliff which cannot be directly accessed. They also throw in normal mobs to stall the party. Those battles are pretty unforgiving to an unprepared party.

Modifié par mosspit, 06 février 2010 - 02:50 .

[x-president]

mosspit wrote...

Hmmm I remember a few battles where the enemies have superior tatical adv. eg. a yellow mage on a hanging cliff which cannot be directly accessed. They also throw in normal mobs to stall the party. Those battles are pretty unforgiving to an unprepared party.

I know the random encounter is like that once you find out that guy is selling duplicated copies of that book.  They stick you in a cutscene and that mage just rains down spells on top of you.

[soteria]

Yeah, and that rat bastard paralyzed my archer. Too bad for him Leliana ALSO has AoS, but still.



I think part of the problem is all the humanoid bosses are too easy to kill. The monstrous bosses are very unforgiving to melee attackers, but the humanoids can be overwhelmed, knocked down, or zerged with melee. I mean, I've seen Jarvia go from full to zero health in less than 10 seconds.

[Upper_Krust]

soteria wrote...

I think part of the problem is all the humanoid bosses are too easy to kill. The monstrous bosses are very unforgiving to melee attackers, but the humanoids can be overwhelmed, knocked down, or zerged with melee. I mean, I've seen Jarvia go from full to zero health in less than 10 seconds.

This may also be because only the three big dragons in the game are Elite Boss rank, with all other bosses being merely Boss rank (to use the games own parlance)...although it sort of makes sense they would be more powerful.

Bosses in DAO:

Ogre
Sloth Demon
Uldred
Kolgrim
Jarvia
Broodmother
Branka
Arl Howe
Loghain
Archdemon

...as well as Flemeth and the High Dragon (which are optional).

I am sure there are a number of other sub-bosses in the game.

A better idea would probably be to give these weaker bosses better allies. Loghain circumvents this by fighting a one-on-one battle. Branka has decent helpers. Kolgrim, Jarvia and Arl Howe could probably use better guards.

[shree420]

x-president wrote...

mosspit wrote...

Hmmm I remember a few battles where the enemies have superior tatical adv. eg. a yellow mage on a hanging cliff which cannot be directly accessed. They also throw in normal mobs to stall the party. Those battles are pretty unforgiving to an unprepared party.

I know the random encounter is like that once you find out that guy is selling duplicated copies of that book.  They stick you in a cutscene and that mage just rains down spells on top of you.

Yes, that Beyha Joam encounter can be tough if you don't take care of the mage first; he'll Paralyze and Fireball in short order.

Personally, this was my main gripe: enemies start off in tactically advantageous positions, you rarely do. In fact, the game itself parodies this in a late, late bandit encounter; traveling from Denerim to Redcliffe post-Landsmeet, you'll get the opportunity to ambush them instead, and the game gleefully plays this up.

You can smell the Zevran ambush a mile away, but your party must play into the whole "Oh we're trapped" cutscene complete with leaping warden under falling tree. There's a thing called scouting, Bioware! At least you can use the terrain that to your advantage.

Regarding the frequency of single/few enemy encounters, I think it's okay. There are less party-on-party encounters, it is true, which can be more fun. I also agree that there can be too many zerging-type encounters where the game just dumps six of a monster type into your lap. For example, the Arcane Horror with Corpses in the Brecilian Forest Ruins is tough because the corpses effectively bar your way while the AH bombards you with spells.