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[Forest03]

Another rambling post. If you happen to read all of this (and any other lengthy posts), thank you for your time (on behalf of myself and all the posters who took the time to provide a meaningful discussion). If not, I don't mind either.

I'm finding that the the negative feedback from those who were looking forward to sexual interludes in ME2 derives mainly from the fact that Bioware not only tamed down every scene, but there was very little build-up to the events themselves, and the dialog was generally bland and uninteresting. ME1's one and only intimate scene was beautifully and tastefully done. As well, the player's immersion into the narrative was enough that, by the time that event did unfold (if they chose to trigger it), it was not only visually pleasing, it also felt good to see their Hero/Heroine recieve some sort of emotional and physical reward for the time invested into the whole story line, regardless of being in a virtual environment.

However, many players (including myself) find ME2's romance elements not only visually stale in comparison, but also sorely unimaginative in terms of dialogue and developing an actual relationship between the main character and his/her "person of affection". It wasn't too bad in ME1, but now the dialog sequences are even more boring. The only exceptions I found are those involving Garrus and Subject Zero. I thought these two story boards were constructed with a little more meaning and creativity than the others; not by much, but it was nice to see a bit more effort put into that part of the game aside from all the quests and combat.

For me, the game itself is on a scale unlike any other. Unfortunately, the romance elements in ME2 are just too stereotypical, the dialog blasé, and the intimate scenes too short and uninspired. As I've said before, I'm not surprised by the caution Bioware took in their approach to the 'adult situations' and how they chose to portray those moments. However, I feel as if they just threw in the sexual scenes for the sake of having them in there. If the writers had actually taken the time to think of something meaningful to, and deserving of, the main character's heroic achievements and interaction with his/her squad, then perhaps the intimate scenes would still be a welcome aspect, even though there's no physical exposure whatsoever.

With that in mind, there are, of course, those who think that, just because there was little to no romantic progression, they deserve some erotic eye candy as 'compensation'. There are also those who were obviously expecting that eroticism just because the game has an "M" rating. Well, you're pretty much SOL. Go have Kelly dance for you, and be happy with that.

Modifié par Forest03, 06 février 2010 - 08:01 .

[Vixxen1984]

daoster wrote...

Vixxen1984 wrote...


"You are absolutely correct. It is not our job to parent the child or determine what content is acceptable or unacceptable for our players. But on the other hand, it is not your job to dictate what content we include or don't include in our games. Game development is not a collaborative effort between developers and gamers; it is a dictatorship, where we alone determine what content goes into our game. You the player make the choice whether that content is acceptable to you (and/or your family) or not."

Actually, Stanley - you're wrong - absolutely wrong here. Yes, it's not your job to do the parenting, but it is your job to listen to what your paying customers want - and a majority wanted some of this stuff. Yes they bought your product anyways, but they definitely aren't nearly as excited as the potential was for them to be. And yes, we, as paying customers, are YOUR bosses, YOUR dictators, not the other way around - so actually WE dictate what content you should include or not include in your games.

In economics, you understand that markets listen to and react to demand. If you don't cater to the demands of your customers - it will hurt you in some way, whatever way, in the end. You may think it's not a collaborative effort, but in the end, in reality, just indirectly - it is. You, as a business must listen to and cater to the demands of your true bosses, who pay your paycheck - your customers. If you don't you'll suffer the consequences in some way. Right now you have the power of being a monopoly on such a type of game, but now that other game developers see such a demand is here, they'll be more of a supply, and if they do this all better than you (by learning from your successes and mistakes) - you're sales numbers will suffer and you will not be moving towards you're potential. Listen to your customers, and you will be greatly rewarded - don't listen you'll be doing it at your own peril.

I've addressed this before.  Using the logic that since "we as customers pay your wages, we the consumers are your bosses" is stretching it to the max.  Using this logic, all products by all producers should be built specifically to the wants of the fans.  But it simply doesn't work like that.  The demand generated by consumers isn't the nitpicky individual requests of consumers, or even overall consensus of consumers, but rather with how much is actually sold (compared to how much is produced).  

2 Million sold already, consumers are reacting to the market, free market for all!  

Bioware's bosses are now EA (not the customers, as widely believed!).  EA's bosses are the board, the board answer to the shareholders.  And shareholders care about the profit, they don't care whether or not there's nudity in the game, or whether or not its a good game.  They care whether or not a particular product will be profitable, and I'd be surprised if Mass Effect won't generate a profit for EA.  

I understand what you're saying, but the logic is still sound. In the grand scheme of things, in the end - that's the way it is. The customers are always the true and ultimate 'boss'. Even to the shareholders. The shareholders want profits, but they won't get profits if the demands of the customers  aren't being met, or they won't be maximizing their profits if the product doesn't cater as best and efficiently as possible to the demands of the customers. Products are built a certain way because there is a demand for them - if there was no demand for whatever product, it either wouldn't be built - or if it was, it would fail miserably, or fail in it's potential. To maximize profit potential one must maximize the catering to demands as efficiently as possible. This is how a successful enterprise works.

I'm also not saying to generate demand you cater to nitpicky demands of individuals - the majority of people I know in real life and the internet and from what I've been reading online who have thus far played through that area of the game were left disappointed. So it's quite a bit more than just that of 'nitpicky demands of individuals'. They took a big step forward in the first game with sex and nudity, and accomplished it in a teasing, but tasteful manner - like in a movie. In ME2, when it came to the climax of the buildup of the relationship building, it was actually quite anticlimactic in most if not all cases.

2 million sold is pretty damned good, but it easily could have been more, faster if they executed better on many parts in the game, generating more publicity, and more reviews teasing about amazing twists in the storyline (which were not present) and more rewarding 'sex' scenes. I'll bet in the end, the long term numbers would have been much better if they executed better in the areas which people wanted.

[Evil Johnny 666]

nospacesinmyname wrote...

As a paying customer, we've got EVERY right to say how we feel about any issue we have with a product, because I bought it, further still i bought it blind. now lets give you an analog to examine. say you buy a car, now you've had the previous generation model and know all the features inside and out. your so excited that the manufacture has updated it you go out and buy it. having not even driven it you assume all the optional equipment works just as well as your old car. but couple miles down the road something doesn't work like it used to now its not essential to the cars basic function but still you went in with the expectation that it would be the same. now you go and contact the manufacture of your new car and ask "why the change?" and they reply "we make the car how WE want to don't like it? go pound sand." sure you really like the new car but are you as likely to buy another model they make? I don't think so.

Of course, but the only thing you're entitled to is the product you bought.

[Vixxen1984]

Forest03 wrote...

Another rambling post. If you happen to read all of this (and any other lengthy posts), thank you for your time (on behalf of myself and all the posters who took the time to provide a meaningful discussion). If not, I don't mind either.

I'm finding that the the negative feedback from those who were looking forward to sexual interludes in ME2 derives mainly from the fact that Bioware not only tamed down every scene, but there was very little build-up to the events themselves, and the dialog was generally bland and uninteresting. ME1's one and only intimate scene, was beautifully and tastefully done. As well, the player's immersion into the narrative was enough that, by the time that event did unfold (if they chose to trigger it), it was not only visually pleasing, it also felt good to see their Hero/Heroine recieve some sort of emotional and physical reward for the time invested into the whole story line, regardless of being in a virtual environment.

However, many players (including myself) find ME2's romance elements not only visually stale in comparison, but also sorely unimaginative in terms of dialogue and developing an actual relationship between the main character and his/her "person of affection". It wasn't too bad in ME1, but now the dialog sequences are even more boring. The only exceptions I found are those involving Garrus and Subject Zero. I thought these two story boards were constructed with a little more meaning and creativity than the others; not by much, but it was nice to see a bit more effort put into that part of the game aside from all the quests and combat.

For me, the game itself is on a scale unlike any other. Unfortunately, the romance elements in ME2 are just too stereotypical, the dialog blasé, and the intimate scenes too short and uninspired. As I've said before, I'm not surprised by the caution Bioware took in their approach to the 'adult situations' and how they chose to portray those moments. However, I feel as if they just threw in the sexual scenes for the sake of having them in there. If the writers had actually taken the time to think of something meaningful to, and deserving of, the main character's heroic achievements and interaction with his/her squad, then perhaps the intimate scenes would still be a welcome aspect, even though there's no physical exposure whatsoever.

With that in mind, there are, of course, those who think that, just because there was little to no progression involving romantic dialog and developing a relationship for the main character, they deserve some erotic eye candy as 'compensation'. Well, you're pretty much SOL. Go have Kelly dance for you, and be happy with that.

^^ This. Very well said.

[damage incorp96]

It cracks me up that  soccer moms are againt the nudity in a M rated game. What are they teaching their kids?
It's ok to shot people in the head, but not to see someones ass? Should be the other way around. I was disappointed in Bioware but I understand they are looking at the $$$. They are a business afterall. If soccer mom can't control her kids and have to give them everything they ask for Bioware is more than happy to take her money. Just an idea, Bioware should do something like Infinity Ward did in Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 and give the option to view or not view questionable material up front. That way I can see Tali's ass in Mass Effect 3 and little Johnny can stay emotionaly void and just shoot people in the head.

[Evil Johnny 666]

Vixxen1984 wrote...

daoster wrote...

Vixxen1984 wrote...


"You are absolutely correct. It is not our job to parent the child or determine what content is acceptable or unacceptable for our players. But on the other hand, it is not your job to dictate what content we include or don't include in our games. Game development is not a collaborative effort between developers and gamers; it is a dictatorship, where we alone determine what content goes into our game. You the player make the choice whether that content is acceptable to you (and/or your family) or not."

Actually, Stanley - you're wrong - absolutely wrong here. Yes, it's not your job to do the parenting, but it is your job to listen to what your paying customers want - and a majority wanted some of this stuff. Yes they bought your product anyways, but they definitely aren't nearly as excited as the potential was for them to be. And yes, we, as paying customers, are YOUR bosses, YOUR dictators, not the other way around - so actually WE dictate what content you should include or not include in your games.

In economics, you understand that markets listen to and react to demand. If you don't cater to the demands of your customers - it will hurt you in some way, whatever way, in the end. You may think it's not a collaborative effort, but in the end, in reality, just indirectly - it is. You, as a business must listen to and cater to the demands of your true bosses, who pay your paycheck - your customers. If you don't you'll suffer the consequences in some way. Right now you have the power of being a monopoly on such a type of game, but now that other game developers see such a demand is here, they'll be more of a supply, and if they do this all better than you (by learning from your successes and mistakes) - you're sales numbers will suffer and you will not be moving towards you're potential. Listen to your customers, and you will be greatly rewarded - don't listen you'll be doing it at your own peril.

I've addressed this before.  Using the logic that since "we as customers pay your wages, we the consumers are your bosses" is stretching it to the max.  Using this logic, all products by all producers should be built specifically to the wants of the fans.  But it simply doesn't work like that.  The demand generated by consumers isn't the nitpicky individual requests of consumers, or even overall consensus of consumers, but rather with how much is actually sold (compared to how much is produced).  

2 Million sold already, consumers are reacting to the market, free market for all!  

Bioware's bosses are now EA (not the customers, as widely believed!).  EA's bosses are the board, the board answer to the shareholders.  And shareholders care about the profit, they don't care whether or not there's nudity in the game, or whether or not its a good game.  They care whether or not a particular product will be profitable, and I'd be surprised if Mass Effect won't generate a profit for EA.  

I understand what you're saying, but the logic is still sound. In the grand scheme of things, in the end - that's the way it is. The customers are always the true and ultimate 'boss'. Even to the shareholders. The shareholders want profits, but they won't get profits if the demands of the customers  aren't being met, or they won't be maximizing their profits if the product doesn't cater as best and efficiently as possible to the demands of the customers. Products are built a certain way because there is a demand for them - if there was no demand for whatever product, it either wouldn't be built - or if it was, it would fail miserably, or fail in it's potential. To maximize profit potential one must maximize the catering to demands as efficiently as possible. This is how a successful enterprise works.

I'm also not saying to generate demand you cater to nitpicky demands of individuals - the majority of people I know in real life and the internet and from what I've been reading online who have thus far played through that area of the game were left disappointed. So it's quite a bit more than just that of 'nitpicky demands of individuals'. They took a big step forward in the first game with sex and nudity, and accomplished it in a teasing, but tasteful manner - like in a movie. In ME2, when it came to the climax of the buildup of the relationship building, it was actually quite anticlimactic in most if not all cases.

2 million sold is pretty damned good, but it easily could have been more, faster if they executed better on many parts in the game, generating more publicity, and more reviews teasing about amazing twists in the storyline (which were not present) and more rewarding 'sex' scenes. I'll bet in the end, the long term numbers would have been much better if they executed better in the areas which people wanted.

All those sales have nothing to do with the game itself but the hype. Real sex scenes wouldn't have changed the number. And thing is, there are so consumers and different opinions, it is impossible for developpers to make a change everyone will like for more money, what they can do however, is making the game more accessible and casual friendly, something I bet, people here do not want. And I really think pretty much everyone who loved ME1 bought ME2, small things like this barely affect nothing unless you are a sad individual. You really have a distorted view of how things work. Shareholders never cared of what people want, it would be too much trouble for what it would be worth anyway for reasons I told. If they want more sales for ME3, they'll just make the game more simple and casual friendly, sex scenes or not.

[Vixxen1984]

Dionkey wrote...

In all honesty people need to chill out. This started with people complaining because of the game not having enough nudity and that Bioware backed down due to Fox News. Mass Effect was never about sex scenes to further the story it was about the conversations between the characters to form the scene, whether it be side boob in ME1 or Tali's helmet in ME2 it doesn't matter.

Many people are taking offense to Woo's argument because of the dictatorship thing and that wanting nudity is immature. I believe the dictatorship thing is total bull**** but asking for of nudity argument is correct. He may have worded his argument wrong (wrong meaning in a more offensive manner) but telling him that Bioware needs to put full frontal nudity scenes in is complete and utter garbage. It would do nothing to help the game but instead get tonnes of media heat and for what? 30 second cutscene so 12 year old's can ****** to it?

Get over yourselves people.

I agree that anyone who advocates or wants full frontal nudity, penetration, etc is sad, and to include that garbage would be even worse. If they want that, get a porno or go to redtube or get a gf/bf.

What I think the majority *are* saying though, is that the sex scenes, being the climax to the romance part of ME2, were extremely anticlimactic and lame, and felt kinda thrown in. ME1 did nudity tastefully, and the tease was it's own reward for all the drama and romance mingling in the first game. It was just a serious let down in ME2, and for Bioware et al to ignore it would be a mistake.

[Vixxen1984]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Vixxen1984 wrote...

daoster wrote...

Vixxen1984 wrote...


"You are absolutely correct. It is not our job to parent the child or determine what content is acceptable or unacceptable for our players. But on the other hand, it is not your job to dictate what content we include or don't include in our games. Game development is not a collaborative effort between developers and gamers; it is a dictatorship, where we alone determine what content goes into our game. You the player make the choice whether that content is acceptable to you (and/or your family) or not."

Actually, Stanley - you're wrong - absolutely wrong here. Yes, it's not your job to do the parenting, but it is your job to listen to what your paying customers want - and a majority wanted some of this stuff. Yes they bought your product anyways, but they definitely aren't nearly as excited as the potential was for them to be. And yes, we, as paying customers, are YOUR bosses, YOUR dictators, not the other way around - so actually WE dictate what content you should include or not include in your games.

In economics, you understand that markets listen to and react to demand. If you don't cater to the demands of your customers - it will hurt you in some way, whatever way, in the end. You may think it's not a collaborative effort, but in the end, in reality, just indirectly - it is. You, as a business must listen to and cater to the demands of your true bosses, who pay your paycheck - your customers. If you don't you'll suffer the consequences in some way. Right now you have the power of being a monopoly on such a type of game, but now that other game developers see such a demand is here, they'll be more of a supply, and if they do this all better than you (by learning from your successes and mistakes) - you're sales numbers will suffer and you will not be moving towards you're potential. Listen to your customers, and you will be greatly rewarded - don't listen you'll be doing it at your own peril.

I've addressed this before.  Using the logic that since "we as customers pay your wages, we the consumers are your bosses" is stretching it to the max.  Using this logic, all products by all producers should be built specifically to the wants of the fans.  But it simply doesn't work like that.  The demand generated by consumers isn't the nitpicky individual requests of consumers, or even overall consensus of consumers, but rather with how much is actually sold (compared to how much is produced).  

2 Million sold already, consumers are reacting to the market, free market for all!  

Bioware's bosses are now EA (not the customers, as widely believed!).  EA's bosses are the board, the board answer to the shareholders.  And shareholders care about the profit, they don't care whether or not there's nudity in the game, or whether or not its a good game.  They care whether or not a particular product will be profitable, and I'd be surprised if Mass Effect won't generate a profit for EA.  

I understand what you're saying, but the logic is still sound. In the grand scheme of things, in the end - that's the way it is. The customers are always the true and ultimate 'boss'. Even to the shareholders. The shareholders want profits, but they won't get profits if the demands of the customers  aren't being met, or they won't be maximizing their profits if the product doesn't cater as best and efficiently as possible to the demands of the customers. Products are built a certain way because there is a demand for them - if there was no demand for whatever product, it either wouldn't be built - or if it was, it would fail miserably, or fail in it's potential. To maximize profit potential one must maximize the catering to demands as efficiently as possible. This is how a successful enterprise works.

I'm also not saying to generate demand you cater to nitpicky demands of individuals - the majority of people I know in real life and the internet and from what I've been reading online who have thus far played through that area of the game were left disappointed. So it's quite a bit more than just that of 'nitpicky demands of individuals'. They took a big step forward in the first game with sex and nudity, and accomplished it in a teasing, but tasteful manner - like in a movie. In ME2, when it came to the climax of the buildup of the relationship building, it was actually quite anticlimactic in most if not all cases.

2 million sold is pretty damned good, but it easily could have been more, faster if they executed better on many parts in the game, generating more publicity, and more reviews teasing about amazing twists in the storyline (which were not present) and more rewarding 'sex' scenes. I'll bet in the end, the long term numbers would have been much better if they executed better in the areas which people wanted.

All those sales have nothing to do with the game itself but the hype. Real sex scenes wouldn't have changed the number. And thing is, there are so consumers and different opinions, it is impossible for developpers to make a change everyone will like for more money, what they can do however, is making the game more accessible and casual friendly, something I bet, people here do not want. And I really think pretty much everyone who loved ME1 bought ME2, small things like this barely affect nothing unless you are a sad individual. You really have a distorted view of how things work. Shareholders never cared of what people want, it would be too much trouble for what it would be worth anyway for reasons I told. If they want more sales for ME3, they'll just make the game more simple and casual friendly, sex scenes or not.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there once again.

Of course it's because of the hype and marketing. My point is that otherwise it would have generated even *more* warranted hype, which would translate into even more sales. Once again, most of us aren't asking for full on 'real' sex scenes, but something a lot more interesting and climactic but tasteful like in ME1. You're also obviously missing the *fact* that it's obvious that a majority of people or at the very least a very significant portion who've played through ME1 were most certainly disappointed with the romance progress and 'climax' in ME2. Otherwise it wouldn't be such a passionate discussion about the game around the internet and between people who've played through it.

Yes, I'd agree that pretty much anyone who loved ME1 bought ME2, but you can't deny there are many who are very disappointed with certain aspects of the game that were simply expected. That will translate into fewer long term sales and quite possibly fewer sales for ME3. Or at the very least even though ME3 will still probably sell very well, it will not be approaching it's potential in sales unless it caters to the demands of what we want and generates more hype. 

I have a distorted view on how things work? Ad hominem much? Take a course in business or economics and maybe you'll learn a thing or two.

As for maximizing sales by making things more casual friendly or simple? You're absolutely 100% wrong, and Modern Warfare 2 proves you to be so, since it has scenes that most certainly are not considered 'casual', and there are tons of games that are much more casual and even simpler, yet they don't sell more than virtually any other form of entertainment in history like MW2 did.

BTW, I like the suggestion someone above mentioned,  where like in MW2 in the beginning you can have certain scenes blocked from being shown if desired.

[JedTed]

While i do miss the ass shots in ME1 i the lack of nudity isn't a total gamebreaker for me. I do however think it's a little weird seeing Miranda on top of Shepard while he's still in full uniform. People don't have sex with their clothes on so whats wrong with showing a little more skin in the game?



I'm not asking for full on nudity just a more convincing romance scene. Why does Shepard have to look like a prude?

[daoster]

Vixxen1984 wrote...

I understand what you're saying, but the logic is still sound. In the grand scheme of things, in the end - that's the way it is. The customers are always the true and ultimate 'boss'. Even to the shareholders. The shareholders want profits, but they won't get profits if the demands of the customers  aren't being met, or they won't be maximizing their profits if the product doesn't cater as best and efficiently as possible to the demands of the customers. Products are built a certain way because there is a demand for them - if there was no demand for whatever product, it either wouldn't be built - or if it was, it would fail miserably, or fail in it's potential. To maximize profit potential one must maximize the catering to demands as efficiently as possible. This is how a successful enterprise works.

I'm also not saying to generate demand you cater to nitpicky demands of individuals - the majority of people I know in real life and the internet and from what I've been reading online who have thus far played through that area of the game were left disappointed. So it's quite a bit more than just that of 'nitpicky demands of individuals'. They took a big step forward in the first game with sex and nudity, and accomplished it in a teasing, but tasteful manner - like in a movie. In ME2, when it came to the climax of the buildup of the relationship building, it was actually quite anticlimactic in most if not all cases.

2 million sold is pretty damned good, but it easily could have been more, faster if they executed better on many parts in the game, generating more publicity, and more reviews teasing about amazing twists in the storyline (which were not present) and more rewarding 'sex' scenes. I'll bet in the end, the long term numbers would have been much better if they executed better in the areas which people wanted.

But all things considered...the demands of the consumers (as a whole, not the people of the Bioware Social Board) seem to have been met...ME2 has sold 2 million copies (at a time when the video game industry is suffering from lower sales), and is on its way to beat out its predecessor...2 million copies sold is already impressive.  Could it have done better?  Sure, every publisher would love to have the billion dollar sales known as Modern Warfare 2, but that's not going to be possible now is it?  

And using the majority of the people you know, or reading the internet forums and seeing people complaining about this or that, that's not the best way to gauge what the market wants now does it?  Even in a topic like this, there are people crying bloody foul because of no nudity, and an almost equal amount saying who cares?  If the consumers themselves can't agree with themselves, how on earth are the producers (Bioware) going to know?  

As for publicity, this game had one of the strongest publicity push I've seen in recent memory...constant commercials, leaking information, frequent interviews with gaming sites and gaming podcasts, even a SyFy channel special.  Any way they could have reached the consumer, they've reached them.  

Stepping away from the economics part for a bit, Mass Effect is also the result of the hardwork of a lot of people, whose numerous inputs also shaped the game.  It's the creative creation of Bioware, not the fans, so where do they stop listening to what they want and start being mindless drones to what the fans want?  

The nudity part was such a small part of the original game, I'm surprised it's such a big deal here.  If you didn't care for the romances in ME2, that's fine.  Personally, I found the romances in ME2 to be much better written than Liara, Kaiden, or Ashley, nude scene and all.  But to some of the people who suggested that the romance would have been better if they had added some nudity scene, classy or not, that's a little ridiculous!    

[Evil Johnny 666]

MW2 was pure for the masses garbage. ME2 is 10 times more complex compared to it. And thing is, MW2 is a casual SHOOTER which is way more popular than some XBLA games.

Anyway, since people were disappointed in ME2 and talked about it, that means they bought the game, that means that whenever the hyped that talked about how "dumbed down" the game was people still bought it, they talked A LOT about the game and people still complained even if many things were already told. And you really believe if they hyped about sex scenes they would have sold more? If people expected it, what's the difference?Part of the hype if what we don't know about the game, what we BELIEVE what there'll be, and since there was a lot of advertisement on romances, I don't know how more hype could have been thrown in and how more sales could there be. More sales would mean people who never played RPGs. And, if they have fewer sales for ME3? That means they listened to us to get more money?

Modifié par Evil Johnny 666, 06 février 2010 - 08:17 .

[Vizkos]

Why does it seem like the minority among the population always has the loudest/most obnoxious voice and sullies the image of the majority?



Honestly, if you are looking for pixel porn, just visit one of the thousands of sites out there offering it for free. Heck, you can even get your fix on Google. The fact that people are trying to push for more pornography in the game begs the question as to whether or not these users in fact meet the maturity requirements to view said scenes, or the violent shooting the game features. Mr. Woo has a good point in that Bioware is in charge of Bioware, and while I wish gamers had more of an influence in content featured in a game (I.E. lack of helmetless models for DLC armor), I do have to agree with him though just for the fact that request without any real reason other than "I want to see it" such as the petition in the original post. Kudus to you Mr. Woo.

[h_pepon]

I believe that the real problem lies in the lack of interaction between Shepard and his/her LI.

We, as the players, spend a great deal of our time getting to know these characters--their past, goals, personal motivations, ideals, issues, and personalities. Inevitably, we end up finding someone compatible with our own ideas and feelings. And so, romance blossoms.

The problem is that this romance is limited to a cutscene. Yes, it is a very emotional scene where the characters express their passion towards each other. It is sensual and establishes the "no return" mood. But, it is not enough to fully connect the player to his/her LI.

In order for the player to really care, there needs to be deeper interaction. I chose Miranda as my LI. But, besides the "I'll come by when things are quiet" dialogue and the cutscene, nothing differentiates my relationship with her in comparisson to the one I have with Grunt.

Why not interact more with her? I think that little details such as being able to dance with her in Omega, a brief cutscene where she smiles at you for no reason, small talk that can range from "be safe, ok?" before going to a mission to an "I missed you" after returning from one, can help the player to care more about his/her LI.

In my case, make me care about Miranda, Bioware. Make her special. Differentiate her from Garrus or Kelly. Take the next step forward.

If you guys find a way of strengthening this bond, of making the player really care, then the sex cutscene lost relevance, and we wouldn't have such topics as this.

Modifié par h_pepon, 06 février 2010 - 08:23 .

[Evil Johnny 666]

Prosthetics511 wrote...

Why does it seem like the minority among the population always has the loudest/most obnoxious voice and sullies the image of the majority?

Honestly, if you are looking for pixel porn, just visit one of the thousands of sites out there offering it for free. Heck, you can even get your fix on Google. The fact that people are trying to push for more pornography in the game begs the question as to whether or not these users in fact meet the maturity requirements to view said scenes, or the violent shooting the game features. Mr. Woo has a good point in that Bioware is in charge of Bioware, and while I wish gamers had more of an influence in content featured in a game (I.E. lack of helmetless models for DLC armor), I do have to agree with him though just for the fact that request without any real reason other than "I want to see it" such as the petition in the original post. Kudus to you Mr. Woo.

Hell, just look at all the Miranda is h00t threads... And I had to defend myself for thinking that prefering drooling over a fake ass is lame and sad...

[MassEffect762]

Sex and Nudity is WAY down the list of things wrong with ME2, WAY DOWN THE LIST.

[JedTed]

Vixxen1984 wrote...

What I think the majority *are* saying though, is that the sex scenes, being the climax to the romance part of ME2, were extremely anticlimactic and lame, and felt kinda thrown in. ME1 did nudity tastefully, and the tease was it's own reward for all the drama and romance mingling in the first game. It was just a serious let down in ME2, and for Bioware et al to ignore it would be a mistake.

This pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter.

Modifié par JedTed, 06 février 2010 - 08:23 .

[cmbreault]

Stanley Woo wrote...

But on the other hand, it is not your jobe to dictate what content we include or don't include in our games. Game development is not a collaborative effort between developers and gamers; it is a dictatorship, where we alone determine what content goes into our game. You the player make the choice whether that content is acceptable to you (and/or your family) or not.

I think you guys may have created a monster when you told Gamasutra that you listened to all feedback about the game. Adrien Cho gave the impression that fans and forum posters did suggest a lot of what went into ME2, and that Bioware was attentive to "absolutely every feedback."

Personally I didn't have a problem with the sex scenes in ME2, but saying that posters in this thread are demanding "HBO/Showtime" or pornographic levels of sex is extreme. You can find raunchier stuff in PG-13 movies and basic cable than you see in ME2. ME1's sex scene seemed PG-13, and, for whatever reason, Bioware backed off from that. At the same time, you included a bunch of different sex scenes (7? 8?), which only makes the shift in content more obvious.

[Abriael_CG]

End of story.

[Sidac]

Abriael_CG wrote...



End of story.

hahahahah

[coffeerox]

cmbreault wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

But on the other hand, it is not your jobe to dictate what content we include or don't include in our games. Game development is not a collaborative effort between developers and gamers; it is a dictatorship, where we alone determine what content goes into our game. You the player make the choice whether that content is acceptable to you (and/or your family) or not.

I think you guys may have created a monster when you told Gamasutra that you listened to all feedback about the game. Adrien Cho gave the impression that fans and forum posters did suggest a lot of what went into ME2, and that Bioware was attentive to "absolutely every feedback."

Personally I didn't have a problem with the sex scenes in ME2, but saying that posters in this thread are demanding "HBO/Showtime" or pornographic levels of sex is extreme. You can find raunchier stuff in PG-13 movies and basic cable than you see in ME2. ME1's sex scene seemed PG-13, and, for whatever reason, Bioware backed off from that. At the same time, you included a bunch of different sex scenes (7? 8?), which only makes the shift in content more obvious.

Bioware did a good job improving the game but the romance/relationship section of the game suffered compared to part 1. Listening to the feedback though, from what I see, is gaining even more sales so it's very counter-productive to the company and their image, that Woo is telling people to "get lost" and that they don't listen or have to listen to feedback.

[Palora]

h_pepon wrote...

I believe that the real problem lies in the lack of interaction between Shepard and his/her LI.

We, as the players, spend a great deal of our time getting to know these characters--their past, goals, personal motivations, ideals, issues, and personalities. Inevitably, we end up finding someone compatible with our own ideas and feelings. And so, romance blossoms.

The problem is that this romance is limited to a cutscene. Yes, it is a very emotional scene where the characters express their passion towards each other. It is sensual and establishes the "no return" mood. But, it is not enough to fully connect the player to his/her LI.

In order for the player to really care, there needs to be deeper interaction. I chose Miranda as my LI. But, besides the "I'll come by when things are quiet" dialogue and the cutscene, nothing differentiates my relationship with her in comparisson to the one I have with Grunt.

Why not interact more with her? I think that little details such as being able to dance with her in Omega, a brief cutscene where she smiles at you for no reason, small talk that can range from "be safe, ok?" before going to a mission to an "I missed you" after returning from one, can help the player to care more about his/her LI.

In my case, make me care about Miranda, Bioware. Make her special. Differentiate her from Garrus or Kelly. Take the next step forward.

If you guys find a way of strengthening this bond, of making the player really care, then the sex cutscene lost relevance, and we wouldn't have such topics as this.

 This sums up my opinion as well, unfortunatly it's not a problem linked only with the LI but with all NPC interactions, most of em only give just a nod that you have that character or an other, it's like an added line on most dialogues, usualy from:

-How are you?
-Fine!
-Ok!
-Ok bye!

to

-How are you?
-I didn't know you knew Grunt... i'm fine!
-Ok!
-Ok bye!

 So nothing happens to change the status que, except on liners that do not change anything else, this is made more annoying with the LI because you do need to feal something for the char to select em as their romance option, and after that you get nothing but a short vid, an option to get her/him up to your room to... waste time and nothing else, heck not even a pink gun with 'i heart u1' on it, just back to same old routine. (we didn't even get a fem shep - tali romance ( )

(it like getting a car, getting a post card from your friends congratulating  you that you got a car but no other mention of it even if they are ridding around in it)

 And yes mario should... 

Modifié par Palora, 06 février 2010 - 08:51 .

[Larask]

I have to agree with the OP. ME1 love scenes were way better, and not because they showed a bit more, but because I think that they were more romantic. The conversation you could have with the LIs when they get in Shepard's room was better, the scene was more personal which has a bigger impact on the player, and you could also see your LI waking up and having another conversation. Way more romantic, interesting and mature.

[Palora]

sorry wrong button, please delete

Modifié par Palora, 06 février 2010 - 08:49 .

[durasteel]

Sounds like Peach needs to give it up for Mario. Just sayin'.