954 réponses à ce sujet

[SkullandBonesmember]

AVornoff wrote...

You're making yourself perfectly clear.

Though i'm presuming you don't have a problem with the wholesale slaughter of people, in graphic detail.

Apples and oranges.

Cop out.

[Cloaking_Thane]

AVornoff wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Why not? I could pose the exact same question to you.

That's the thing.  They could have presented it either way, and as long as it maintained Bioware's high standard of writing, I would have been perfectly happy.  Why can't I have both?  Why do I have to pick one over the other?  Can't I just enjoy them both for what they are?

Because one option leaves alot to be desired as descibed per my other post.

[theatrociousone]

Nudity is a problem because we live in a close-minded society ruled by toolbags like Faux News who want you to know that you should be ashamed of your body in order to allegedly please some invisible Santy Claus when in reality it's to satisfy their malevolent need to control others with an iron fist and force their own "sensibilities".



That about cover it?

[SkullandBonesmember]

theatrociousone wrote...

Nudity is a problem because we live in a close-minded society ruled by toolbags like Faux News who want you to know that you should be ashamed of your body in order to allegedly please some invisible Santy Claus when in reality it's to satisfy their malevolent need to control others with an iron fist and force their own "sensibilities".

Yes, FAUX News sucks. But anybody with half a brain cell that realizes there's more to being a theist then just being a "Christian" knows there is an intelligence behind the beginning of the life and universe(s). That, however, is for another debate. <_<

[Crazy_Cat_Lady]

I guess I should put my two cents in. If we're comparing ME2 to ME1 and DA:O, ME2 did the worst of handling the romance factor. Your whole romance option is almost an afterthought as it has zero impact on the story and you just get one, quick, pretty bland and lame scene before the final mission. Calling up your LI to your cabin after you beat the game and watched them just cuddle was more creepy than anything.



ME1 did a pretty good job of weaving in the romance (at least if you were pursuing Liara) and giving you a scene that was no more graphic than what you'd see in a PG-13. DA:O did the best out of all of them of weaving in the romance options into the story. Other characters would comment, some would get jealous and make you choose (some you could trick out of not making you choose), and of course if your in a relationship before the climax that will probably affect your decision making in terms of the choices presented to you. But like others have said, the whole feeling each other up in bra and panties just looked ridiculous and really ruined the moment.



I think all that players are asking is that if there are going to be romance options, make it believable, make us care about the other characters and our relationships with them, and don't try to straddle the fence by trying to give us a "romance scene" while not offending the Fox News crowd. It's rated M for a reason. Sometimes you've got a stop caring about what people who aren't even going to play the game think about it.

[durasteel]

AVornoff wrote...

I feel like I'm in the minority on this one. Telling me that I need to see a perfect pair o' perky nips to be considered a mature gamer feels a bit insulting to my intelligence. Whatever happened to being tasteful?

It blows my mind that the entertainment industry thinks it's mature to do full frontal and use the f-word in every sentence to the point where audiences just sort of accept it. Hell, they even start believing it. It makes the whole argument feel a bit creepy.

I'm going to outright say it: I do not believe that the Mass Effect experience would be enhanced by actually seeing Tali's sweater kittens. I still have an imagination, so I don't need an explicit sex scene or any sex scene at all for that matter to make me like this game.

See, its like some of you are simply cross-posting from some other thread.  In THIS thread, the general gist is that many people would prefer a return to the romantic scene stylings of the first game, because (while they overwhelmingly like ME2 generally) they prefer the handling of the clumination of the romance arc in Mass Effect.

You, on the other hand, are talking about a need for porn.  With the exception of a few posts which are obviously not serious, no one is asking for porn, and no one is claiming a need.  It raises the question: are you actually reading previous posts, or are you just making assumptions and posting in ignorance?

AVornoff wrote...

Big_Stupid_Jelly wrote...
Can
you say (15) rated game? I shouldn't have to split hairs.

You
shouldn't because it has nothing to do with my point.  Just because
it's a mature game doesn't automatically mean there needs to be flesh on
display.  How am I not making that clear?

Well, isn't that ironic?

See, BSJ wasn't suggesting that the game needed to have some gratuitous display of flesh.  BSJ is actually addressing the perceived need on the part of BioWare to purge any such display from the second game in response to the outbreak of ignorant, sanctimonious, and disingenuous outrage that resulted from the "lesbian alien" scene in Mass Effect.  Rather than discuss this issue, you elected to misconstrue the argument in this thread entirely, and invert the issue of need to insist that there was no need for Mass Effect style romantic scenes.

You're being plenty clear, but basically irrelevant.  You're off topic, and you're either trying to derail the thread, unwilling to read previous posts in order to ensure the relevance of your own, or unable to grasp the basic points of the discussion in this thread.

AVornoff wrote...

Did you play ME1 though mate?

It
was tastefully done and that is exactly what people are asking for.

At
currently there is hardly a "reward" for the emotional investment put
into the relationships

I just said before, yes, I did
play through the first game and have no issues with the sex scene
therein.  It was tasteful, I never disputed that.

What I am
arguing is that we shouldn't need it to be a sex scene.  Why do
we need irrefutable proof that boning occured?  Why does it have to show
us flesh for the scene to be good?

We don't need love scenes in general.  We like Mass Effect 2 as it is, but with regard to the love scenes, we liked the ones in Mass Effect better, from a stylistic perspective.  I, in particular, thought that there was more of an emotional connection before the Mu Relay than before the Omega Relay, with the honest exception of Tali.  Since I was already emotionally invested in that character, the "Talimance" doesn't even meter on the same scale as the others.  I do hope to see a stirring, deeply emotional, and clearly disrobed love scene between Shepard and Tali'Zorah.  I feel like the build up does, in fact, bring that to the point of "need," in the sense that I will be dissatisfied in its absence.

So, there is your "need."  It is not a general need, based on a non-specific craving for digital flesh, as you seem to imagine in your apparently prurient fantasy.  Instead, the issue is that some of us have become sufficiently invested in the Mass Effect characters that we feel a specific need to witness a culmination to their love story in the game that will be the culmination to the greater story arc.  I won't re-hash my previous assertions regarding the emotional response that the game player has to seeing the characters being naked together, I'll just assume that you have read at least two pages back in this thread before wading into the argument.

[AVornoff]

....

Modifié par AVornoff, 18 février 2010 - 10:06 .

[AVornoff]

durasteel wrote...

You, on the other hand, are talking about a need for porn.  With the exception of a few posts which are obviously not serious, no one is asking for porn, and no one is claiming a need.  It raises the question: are you actually reading previous posts, or are you just making assumptions and posting in ignorance?

I'll concede that I put up a straw man, and for that I apologize.  I'm kind of having a bad day, skipped posts when I shouldn't have, and let my own irritation in the moment infect my attitude here.

durasteel wrote...

We don't need love scenes in general.  We like Mass Effect 2 as it is, but with regard to the love scenes, we liked the ones in Mass Effect better, from a stylistic perspective.  I, in particular, thought that there was more of an emotional connection before the Mu Relay than before the Omega Relay, with the honest exception of Tali.  Since I was already emotionally invested in that character, the "Talimance" doesn't even meter on the same scale as the others.  I do hope to see a stirring, deeply emotional, and clearly disrobed love scene between Shepard and Tali'Zorah.  I feel like the build up does, in fact, bring that to the point of "need," in the sense that I will be dissatisfied in its absence.

So, there is your "need."  It is not a general need, based on a non-specific craving for digital flesh, as you seem to imagine in your apparently prurient fantasy.  Instead, the issue is that some of us have become sufficiently invested in the Mass Effect characters that we feel a specific need to witness a culmination to their love story in the game that will be the culmination to the greater story arc.  I won't re-hash my previous assertions regarding the emotional response that the game player has to seeing the characters being naked together, I'll just assume that you have read at least two pages back in this thread before wading into the argument.

Okay, now I'm starting to see a little better where you're coming from.  I'll replay the game a couple different ways and see if my opinion changes somewhere along the way.  Fair enough?

[durasteel]

AVornoff wrote...

Okay, now I'm starting to see a little better where you're coming from.  I'll replay the game a couple different ways and see if my opinion changes somewhere along the way.  Fair enough?

Can't ask for more.

[ian528]

Crazy_Cat_Lady wrote...

I guess I should put my two cents in. If we're comparing ME2 to ME1 and DA:O, ME2 did the worst of handling the romance factor. Your whole romance option is almost an afterthought as it has zero impact on the story and you just get one, quick, pretty bland and lame scene before the final mission. Calling up your LI to your cabin after you beat the game and watched them just cuddle was more creepy than anything.

ME1 did a pretty good job of weaving in the romance (at least if you were pursuing Liara) and giving you a scene that was no more graphic than what you'd see in a PG-13. DA:O did the best out of all of them of weaving in the romance options into the story. Other characters would comment, some would get jealous and make you choose (some you could trick out of not making you choose), and of course if your in a relationship before the climax that will probably affect your decision making in terms of the choices presented to you. But like others have said, the whole feeling each other up in bra and panties just looked ridiculous and really ruined the moment.

I think all that players are asking is that if there are going to be romance options, make it believable, make us care about the other characters and our relationships with them, and don't try to straddle the fence by trying to give us a "romance scene" while not offending the Fox News crowd. It's rated M for a reason. Sometimes you've got a stop caring about what people who aren't even going to play the game think about it.

I agree whole heartedly with you and the fact that it does become creepy watching a rather dead looking male figure get cuddled on the bed by a moving female form.  

[Grizzly46]

Let's try to put this sex scene thing into perspective, shall we?



Obviously, some people think nudity and sex is the same as porn, and porn is bad (can be discussed, but not here). Therefore, we got these very lame love scenes with a LI of our choice, and I have seen steamier stuff on Big Brother - which kids watch. But nevermind all that for now.



In Mass Effect you get to kill people in all kind of ways - guns, biotics, pushing them out of windows, you name it. But I have yet to see or hear a single voice of opposition to that, the limitless slaughter. And it is even worse in Dragon Age, where blood flows in wide streams all over.



Now, I might sound a bit European here, but I personally think sex is better than violence - and violence is the number one reason films have ben cut here, not sex scenes.



What I mean is that somethin that people from one side of the pond see as despicable and horrible might not be true to to the people on the other side. I would however have difficulties playing an RPG withoiut any forms of violence, but not without any form of sex or love. That is because I think the love plots are not a general part of the RPG worlds, but biolence is. But, as we all have grown up and has become adults with adult interests, we have come to terms with the fact that interest in sex, love, relationships have as much to do in an RPG as the quest for the perfect sword to kill the perfect dragon with. I can play a game for hours, where my sole interest would be to destroy a base, kill a boss or simply finding clues to something going on, and that would be fine. If there is no relationship plot at all, fine. But if there is, I want that to be as developed and mature as the rest of the game is. If there are tons of info on how to kill a specific boss, the boss being meticously rendered, the AI top-notch and everything is set to be the perfect final fight, then I'm happy. But, then I would also like to see the relationships I have with any potential friends to have the same development, the same validity if you want. Rushing something over is not the way to go to make a game good. The same would apply if the situation was reversed: if it took me hours to catch a love interests interest, finalizing it with a great erotic scene, but the final fight would be against something from Pac-Man, then I would be just as disappointed.



And this goes for every single piece of content: I'm very unhappy with the mini-games in Mass Effect, which I think sucks (apart from that tower of hanoi or whatever it was called), and since they are an integral part of the game, they add to the minus side of the overall impression. If you want to include something, it has better add to the value - otherwise, don't include it at all. If there was no love plots at all and everybody would just be friends or subordinates then I would be fine with that, as long as the friends part would be done well.

[Torhagen]

AVornoff wrote...

Big_Stupid_Jelly wrote...

Seeing how the 'sex scene' in Mass Effect 1 wasn't even that, a bit of semi-nudity and really nothing else, it is really hard to call it as such.

Two words: splitting hairs.

So why do you do it then

[Torhagen]

theatrociousone wrote...

Nudity is a problem because we live in a close-minded society ruled by toolbags like Faux News who want you to know that you should be ashamed of your body in order to allegedly please some invisible Santy Claus when in reality it's to satisfy their malevolent need to control others with an iron fist and force their own "sensibilities".

That about cover it?

That might be true for the USA and its around 340 Million People 
Over the Ocean Europe has around 400 Million and a Channel like FOX News would not get a broadcasting license there thats why i expected more of a Canadian Developer than to buy into that hypocrititcal BS

[Prophet of Rage]

Dry-humping is fun and all, but it's painful to watch. Agreeable stance, no?
:wizard::wizard:

[Ryzaki]

>_>



Can you lot stop bloody lumping Americans together? That's immensely annoying. I'm American and I'm not "OMG NEKKID PEOPLE OH NOES!" kind of person.

[Torhagen]

Ryzaki wrote...

>_>

Can you lot stop bloody lumping Americans together? That's immensely annoying. I'm American and I'm not "OMG NEKKID PEOPLE OH NOES!" kind of person.

No Offence intended
maybe you should look for Americans like you because all i get over here is that publisher or developer or broadcaster think they have to change harmless little things because of stations like "Fox News" deem them as scandalous and enough american buy into that BS.

[Ryzaki]

Torhagen wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

>_>

Can you lot stop bloody lumping Americans together? That's immensely annoying. I'm American and I'm not "OMG NEKKID PEOPLE OH NOES!" kind of person.

No Offence intended
maybe you should look for Americans like you because all i get over here is that publisher or developer or broadcaster think they have to change harmless little things because of stations like "Fox News" deem them as scandalous and enough american buy into that BS.

It wasn't even enough Americans. <_< Fox News isn't even taken seriously by the majority of americans. Seriously stop blaming a whole country for BioWare's decision.

[GRX Dragon]

Stanley Woo wrote...

It's kinda funny that this topic keeps coming up over and over again. People who claim to be old enough and mature enough to handle sex and nudity in a game seem to believe that any lack of sex and nudity in the game is a sign of self-censorship. They generally don't believe that a game can be called "mature" without explicit sex and/or nudity.

Let me tell you, folks, that as a developer full of mature individuals, we are also free to not have explicit sex and/or nudity in our games, no matter what you, Fox News, the government, or Bunky the Wonder Clown has to say about it. We have never considered it a "problem," it is simply a choice we have made and we have every right to make that choice.

Stanley Woo wrote...

I can understand how it must seem to players who really, really, really want to see HBO- and Showtime-like sex and nudity in our stories, but that's not what makes our games great, and ironically, insisting on sex and nudity tends to make people look immature. Just because you'd like to see somehing--anything--doesn't mean that we will do it or agree with your reasons to include/not include it.

and to both sides of the argument, let's please keep the insults out of the discussion. Thank you.

It is your choice, you're right. But it is also our right as consumers to want certain features since we're paying for it, but of course you don't have to give a consumer everything they want... but money is still money, and no object is more powerful. Great thing about Capitalism, it's a multi-way street, where only the best survive and everyone else fails. ;/


Regardless, however... the irony here is that while BioWare is known for their controversial nude scenes, just that none of which have actually shown anything a COMMERCIAL hasn't done before.

Edit: And no one is expecting the crap out of HBO, that's stupid. Keep it sensual like in ME1.

Modifié par GRX Dragon, 19 février 2010 - 01:51 .

[Torhagen]

Ah the infamous stanley comment wonder how he would explain that morgain specially wears a bra at the campfire while her normal outfit is very revealing.

[Grizzly46]

Ryzaki wrote...

>_>

Can you lot stop bloody lumping Americans together? That's immensely annoying. I'm American and I'm not "OMG NEKKID PEOPLE OH NOES!" kind of person.

No, but enough Americans are. There are Americans who loves guns and have tons of them, an interest many Europeans find both scary, odd and disturbing, but that doesn't mean there aren't Europeans who don't own a ton of guns either - there are also Europeans that are just as prude as religious right-wing fundamentalists in the US are.

You as a person is a specific factor; you as an American is a general factor.

[Ryzaki]

Grizzly46 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

>_>

Can you lot stop bloody lumping Americans together? That's immensely annoying. I'm American and I'm not "OMG NEKKID PEOPLE OH NOES!" kind of person.

No, but enough Americans are. There are Americans who loves guns and have tons of them, an interest many Europeans find both scary, odd and disturbing, but that doesn't mean there aren't Europeans who don't own a ton of guns either - there are also Europeans that are just as prude as religious right-wing fundamentalists in the US are.

You as a person is a specific factor; you as an American is a general factor.

>_> 

Right. So all the French are wussies, the british can't do **** and are content with their government pulling all the shots and the Irish are drunks and can't get jobs.

Gotcha.

Oh and Europe as a whole can't solve their problems on their own either right? 

I can make incorrect sweeping generalizations too!

Also: I love how INCORRECT you are about the percentage of american that would care. The uber conservative (I.E fanatical) right wing happens to be the loudest NOT the most plentiful. But then again. Why would you know that? 


Also LOL at the underlined part. So you lot jump at the thought of the big scary guns? OH NOES! The gun might act of its on accord and shot me! 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 février 2010 - 02:23 .

[Grizzly46]

Ryzaki wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

>_>

Can you lot stop bloody lumping Americans together? That's immensely annoying. I'm American and I'm not "OMG NEKKID PEOPLE OH NOES!" kind of person.

No, but enough Americans are. There are Americans who loves guns and have tons of them, an interest many Europeans find both scary, odd and disturbing, but that doesn't mean there aren't Europeans who don't own a ton of guns either - there are also Europeans that are just as prude as religious right-wing fundamentalists in the US are.

You as a person is a specific factor; you as an American is a general factor.

>_> 

Right. So all the French are wussies, the british can't do **** and are content with their government pulling all the shots and the Irish are drunks and can't get jobs.

Gotcha.

Oh and Europe as a whole can't solve their problems on their own either right? 

I can make incorrect sweeping generalizations too!

Also: I love how INCORRECT you are about the percentage of american that would care. The uber conservative (I.E fanatical) right wing happens to be the loudest NOT the most plentiful. But then again. Why would you know that? 


Also LOL at the underlined part. So you lot jump at the thought of the big scary guns? OH NOES! The gun might act of its on accord and shot me! 

The gun thing was only one prominent factor of the American culture I chose to bring up - I am well aware most Americans do not own guns, but more Americans than Europeans do. And since I know there are American civilians with fully automatic weapons out there, I really AM scared ****less. Not for my sake, but for the Americans who might jump on a bullet. Even if you don't own a gun, you next door neighbour might (unless you live in Massachussetts or some other state which have more [for a European] restrictive weapon laws). The nearest weapon I know of here would be my uncle's hunting rifle - 20 miles away.

And yes, there are French wussies, drunk Irish and so on, whatever you want, and I told you what I meant - specific and general factors. But, if you can't come up with a good explanation for WHY the minority is so loud, please don't say anything. the loud 'minority' was most likely the ones who voted in Bush II to the White House (twice even).

What I am saying is that a loud minority like the American prude lobby are so powerful that they can influence media productions, like games. Of course, sometimes stuff flies past under their radar, but it still remains a power factor.

[Ryzaki]

Grizzly46 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

>_>

Can you lot stop bloody lumping Americans together? That's immensely annoying. I'm American and I'm not "OMG NEKKID PEOPLE OH NOES!" kind of person.

No, but enough Americans are. There are Americans who loves guns and have tons of them, an interest many Europeans find both scary, odd and disturbing, but that doesn't mean there aren't Europeans who don't own a ton of guns either - there are also Europeans that are just as prude as religious right-wing fundamentalists in the US are.

You as a person is a specific factor; you as an American is a general factor.

>_> 

Right. So all the French are wussies, the british can't do **** and are content with their government pulling all the shots and the Irish are drunks and can't get jobs.

Gotcha.

Oh and Europe as a whole can't solve their problems on their own either right? 

I can make incorrect sweeping generalizations too!

Also: I love how INCORRECT you are about the percentage of american that would care. The uber conservative (I.E fanatical) right wing happens to be the loudest NOT the most plentiful. But then again. Why would you know that? 


Also LOL at the underlined part. So you lot jump at the thought of the big scary guns? OH NOES! The gun might act of its on accord and shot me! 

The gun thing was only one prominent factor of the American culture I chose to bring up - I am well aware most Americans do not own guns, but more Americans than Europeans do. And since I know there are American civilians with fully automatic weapons out there, I really AM scared ****less. Not for my sake, but for the Americans who might jump on a bullet. Even if you don't own a gun, you next door neighbour might (unless you live in Massachussetts or some other state which have more [for a European] restrictive weapon laws). The nearest weapon I know of here would be my uncle's hunting rifle - 20 miles away.

And yes, there are French wussies, drunk Irish and so on, whatever you want, and I told you what I meant - specific and general factors. But, if you can't come up with a good explanation for WHY the minority is so loud, please don't say anything. the loud 'minority' was most likely the ones who voted in Bush II to the White House (twice even).

What I am saying is that a loud minority like the American prude lobby are so powerful that they can influence media productions, like games. Of course, sometimes stuff flies past under their radar, but it still remains a power factor.

OMG. HA! You're seriously scared at the thought that the boogeyman is going to come out of nowhere and start shooting?  Unbelievable. Hey I'll take my prude but respecting personal freedom country of your loving natural bodies and believing that people are unable to control themselves baby state anyday.

The minority is loud BECAUSE they are prudes. No one said they weren't. W

Also: American PRUDE lobby? LOL Fox News =/= the Republican lobby. Seriously get over that. No one NO ONE else made a big deal about it EXCEPT Fox News. And they outright LIED. So yeah you're asspulling.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 février 2010 - 03:33 .

[SkullTang]

Torhagen wrote...

SkullTang wrote...

The scene in mass effect 1 was well done I thought the same for mass effect 2.
I'm not looking for full on video game porn that would just take a way from the main story because everyone would let the galaxy be destroyed just so they could see some blue chick's boobs and that is just sad.

Quarians are better looking anyway

I am not looking for for full on video game porn if i would want that there is enough of that in the internetz

But why to people always try to play the "Porn Card" 
So you think that a 10second Romance scene with them being actually naked while having sex is porn or what??

No!  I agree with you that is not porn sorry for the confusion.

[oldgass]

We Canucks needs to stay warm nudity is an entertaining winter sport, we thaw in the spring. Sex is required winter survival trait, when you can spend up to 6 months in snow drifts

No seriously,if you don`t want nude/ blood/ violence,why did you bother buying a mature 17+ rated game. If your children are playing it then thats your fault not the games