954 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

I am an american.



Can has more bewbs pls?



But in all seriousness, the news is a horrible way to judge americans. Our news is pure garbage. Personally, I'd like to see more appropriately done love scenes.

[Bob5312]

At the risk of going against the crowd, I was perfectly happy with the culmination of the romance in ME2. You had more options for your love interest, and each one had a unique scene that was personal for them. Jack's and Tali's were completely different, for example, and each fit the character's personality perfectly, which was exactly what I wanted. Yes, I did think it looked a bit silly for Shepard to be fully dressed, but that wasn't the point.

By contrast, in the first game there was just one scene (pre-rendered, not using the game engine) in which your love interest was re-coloured depending on whom you chose.

I suspect that the time it took to create five or six unique scenes as opposed to one re-useable one was what caused the change.



I think the discussion of whether BioWare bowed to media pressure or not, and whose fault that is, is a bit unproductive. I certainly don't think there's much to be gained by insulting one another's cultures, laws, or countries. I'm Canadian, my father is British, my Aunt lives in Switzerland, and my wife's family lives in the United States. We all get along quite well.

[Grizzly46]

Ryzaki wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Grizzly46 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

>_>

Can you lot stop bloody lumping Americans together? That's immensely annoying. I'm American and I'm not "OMG NEKKID PEOPLE OH NOES!" kind of person.

No, but enough Americans are. There are Americans who loves guns and have tons of them, an interest many Europeans find both scary, odd and disturbing, but that doesn't mean there aren't Europeans who don't own a ton of guns either - there are also Europeans that are just as prude as religious right-wing fundamentalists in the US are.

You as a person is a specific factor; you as an American is a general factor.

>_> 

Right. So all the French are wussies, the british can't do **** and are content with their government pulling all the shots and the Irish are drunks and can't get jobs.

Gotcha.

Oh and Europe as a whole can't solve their problems on their own either right? 

I can make incorrect sweeping generalizations too!

Also: I love how INCORRECT you are about the percentage of american that would care. The uber conservative (I.E fanatical) right wing happens to be the loudest NOT the most plentiful. But then again. Why would you know that? 


Also LOL at the underlined part. So you lot jump at the thought of the big scary guns? OH NOES! The gun might act of its on accord and shot me! 

The gun thing was only one prominent factor of the American culture I chose to bring up - I am well aware most Americans do not own guns, but more Americans than Europeans do. And since I know there are American civilians with fully automatic weapons out there, I really AM scared ****less. Not for my sake, but for the Americans who might jump on a bullet. Even if you don't own a gun, you next door neighbour might (unless you live in Massachussetts or some other state which have more [for a European] restrictive weapon laws). The nearest weapon I know of here would be my uncle's hunting rifle - 20 miles away.

And yes, there are French wussies, drunk Irish and so on, whatever you want, and I told you what I meant - specific and general factors. But, if you can't come up with a good explanation for WHY the minority is so loud, please don't say anything. the loud 'minority' was most likely the ones who voted in Bush II to the White House (twice even).

What I am saying is that a loud minority like the American prude lobby are so powerful that they can influence media productions, like games. Of course, sometimes stuff flies past under their radar, but it still remains a power factor.

OMG. HA! You're seriously scared at the thought that the boogeyman is going to come out of nowhere and start shooting?  Unbelievable. Hey I'll take my prude but respecting personal freedom country of your loving natural bodies and believing that people are unable to control themselves baby state anyday.

The minority is loud BECAUSE they are prudes. No one said they weren't. W

Also: American PRUDE lobby? LOL Fox News =/= the Republican lobby. Seriously get over that. No one NO ONE else made a big deal about it EXCEPT Fox News. And they outright LIED. So yeah you're asspulling.

This is the wrong forum for this kind of discussion, and the topic is at risk of going off road.

[Deviija]

Needs moar peen. The more the peen, the quicker people get over the squick.

[Tinyrose]

I agree to Grumpy Old Wizard, AGogley and Stanley Woo as a older generation playing this game, the characters conversation with one another, the missions and the story lines are about the game. To have exotic sex scene are just tasteful. just leave things alone as they are. If you want to watch exotic rent a dam movie.

[Marcin K]

Tinyrose wrote...

I agree to Grumpy Old Wizard, AGogley and Stanley Woo as a older generation playing this game, the characters conversation with one another, the missions and the story lines are about the game. To have exotic sex scene are just tasteful. just leave things alone as they are. If you want to watch exotic rent a dam movie.

to clear the image, as i see some of you are starting to get offtopic, "To have exotic sex scene are just tasteful. just leave things alone as they are"=just like in ME1

am i not right?

Modifié par Marcin R, 19 février 2010 - 01:31 .

[TheTrooper1138]

Bob5312 wrote...

At the risk of going against the crowd, I was perfectly happy with the culmination of the romance in ME2. You had more options for your love interest, 

and yet there was no lesbian LI for femshep, since Kelly is not a real LI... big ****ing step back! Seriously BioWare, WTF?!!
I mean, OK, if it was not possible in the first, then OK, but why is my femshep supposed to not be lesbian in the 2nd anymore if she was in the first? And don't tell me, she's supposed to be faithful, since the way I see it, my femshep was rather disappointed by the way Liara acted in the 2nd, so she chose not to care for her anymore and fell for Kelly, but the game did not really give that option and now she stared at Liara's pic, before going at the collectors... (yes, I take roleplaying very seriously )

[MilkyMoor]

I'm just going to copy/paste this post from another thread. There are a few posts I see where people are saying Mass Effect 2 is not adult because there is no nudity and, therefore, doesn't deserve the rating it got.

exxxed wrote...



Valid point broa'.



On my Collector's Edition box there's a big 18+ sign on the bottom left corner... sincerely i didn't see nothing in this game that screamed 18+.



Even in ME 1 you had allot more ''nudity'', though here you have allot more colorful text and dialogue.



AO rating seems kind of harsh due to the fact that compared to 18+ movies this game fails miserably, i would understand if you had full control over the camera during a certain scene, but since it's scripted and you still watch it like a movie and don't see crap, i would have given this game a 12+ rating.



Cheers!

I'm just going to quote this post again because this is the line of thinking many people seem to have.



Exxxed is directly stating that Mass Effect 2 deserves a 12+ rating and is not an adult game. He is saying that Mass Effect 2 is fine for kids to play unsupervised.



I would like to remind everyone Mass Effect 2 is a game that deals with (among other things):



Murder (in self-defence and otherwise) including many heinous deaths such as electrocution and immolation.

Mindless acts of violence against innocents

Genocide of sentient species (not conducted by the antagonists)

Torture (conducted by the protagonist)

Threats to perform all of the above (by the protagonist)

Drug use, including addiction and trafficking.

Slavery (of sentient species)

Inflicted mental handicaps for sexual purposes

Extortion, blackmail, etc.

Industrial Sabotage

Corporate espionage

Biological warfare

Strip Clubs

Serial Killers

Eugenics

Swearing

Sexual innuendo

Inter-species relationships

Beastiality

Animal pit-fighting



And yet it is nudity that makes something 'adult' in the minds of most people. To such an extent that a game cannot be considered 'adult' without it.



This is not a 'we should protect the children' post, by the way, but maybe it'll get people thinking that Mass Effect 2 is an adult game despite it's lack of nudity. I doubt it, but anything's possible.

[Marcin K]

MilkyMoor wrote...

I'm just going to copy/paste this post from another thread. There are a few posts I see where people are saying Mass Effect 2 is not adult because there is no nudity and, therefore, doesn't deserve the rating it got.

exxxed wrote...

Valid point broa'.

On my Collector's Edition box there's a big 18+ sign on the bottom left corner... sincerely i didn't see nothing in this game that screamed 18+.

Even in ME 1 you had allot more ''nudity'', though here you have allot more colorful text and dialogue.

AO rating seems kind of harsh due to the fact that compared to 18+ movies this game fails miserably, i would understand if you had full control over the camera during a certain scene, but since it's scripted and you still watch it like a movie and don't see crap, i would have given this game a 12+ rating.

Cheers!

I'm just going to quote this post again because this is the line of thinking many people seem to have.

Exxxed is directly stating that Mass Effect 2 deserves a 12+ rating and is not an adult game. He is saying that Mass Effect 2 is fine for kids to play unsupervised.

I would like to remind everyone Mass Effect 2 is a game that deals with (among other things):

Murder (in self-defence and otherwise) including many heinous deaths such as electrocution and immolation.
Mindless acts of violence against innocents
Genocide of sentient species (not conducted by the antagonists)
Torture (conducted by the protagonist)
Threats to perform all of the above (by the protagonist)
Drug use, including addiction and trafficking.
Slavery (of sentient species)
Inflicted mental handicaps for sexual purposes
Extortion, blackmail, etc.
Industrial Sabotage
Corporate espionage
Biological warfare
Strip Clubs
Serial Killers
Eugenics
Swearing
Sexual innuendo
Inter-species relationships
Beastiality
Animal pit-fighting

And yet it is nudity that makes something 'adult' in the minds of most people. To such an extent that a game cannot be considered 'adult' without it.

This is not a 'we should protect the children' post, by the way, but maybe it'll get people thinking that Mass Effect 2 is an adult game despite it's lack of nudity. I doubt it, but anything's possible.

MilkyMoor i am sure, that most to us here understands what 18+game includes, but the discussion is not "is it 12+ or 18+ game" but how sex/romance part was handled
that's what this thread is all about in  my opinion...
with of course you do not have to agree...

[MilkyMoor]

MilkyMoor i am sure, that most to us here understands what 18+game includes, but the discussion is not "is it 12+ or 18+ game" but how sex/romance part was handled
that's what this thread is all about in  my opinion...
with of course you do not have to agree...

You are extremely literal.

The fact is that they are inter-related. I have not read this entire thread but I know that if I go back I will find people lambasting ME2's status as an adult game because it lacks nudity. I know that if I go back I will surely find one along the lines of 'This is an adult game! Where is my nudity?'

The sex/romance was handled well. Bioware played it safe (from both a media and in-game perspective, remember Dragon Age?). It is not a terrible conspiracy to prevent you from seeing some virtual TnA.

[Cloaking_Thane]

MilkyMoor wrote...

MilkyMoor i am sure, that most to us here understands what 18+game includes, but the discussion is not "is it 12+ or 18+ game" but how sex/romance part was handled
that's what this thread is all about in  my opinion...
with of course you do not have to agree...

You are extremely literal.

The fact is that they are inter-related. I have not read this entire thread but I know that if I go back I will find people lambasting ME2's status as an adult game because it lacks nudity. I know that if I go back I will surely find one along the lines of 'This is an adult game! Where is my nudity?'

The sex/romance was handled well. Bioware played it safe (from both a media and in-game perspective, remember Dragon Age?). It is not a terrible conspiracy to prevent you from seeing some virtual TnA.

Yes, however if you thought what was done in the first game was thoughtful and appropriate then there is no reason to not at a minumum start there.

The romance ending compared to the first game were a disservice.

This thread generally evolved from the "moar porn" perspective.

[MilkyMoor]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

MilkyMoor wrote...

MilkyMoor i am sure, that most to us here understands what 18+game includes, but the discussion is not "is it 12+ or 18+ game" but how sex/romance part was handled
that's what this thread is all about in  my opinion...
with of course you do not have to agree...

You are extremely literal.

The fact is that they are inter-related. I have not read this entire thread but I know that if I go back I will find people lambasting ME2's status as an adult game because it lacks nudity. I know that if I go back I will surely find one along the lines of 'This is an adult game! Where is my nudity?'

The sex/romance was handled well. Bioware played it safe (from both a media and in-game perspective, remember Dragon Age?). It is not a terrible conspiracy to prevent you from seeing some virtual TnA.

Yes, however if you thought what was done in the first game was thoughtful and appropriate then there is no reason to not at a minumum start there.

The romance ending compared to the first game were a disservice.

This thread generally evolved from the "moar porn" perspective.

Sequels are different. Things change.

Your 'thoughtful and appropriate' quote is odd. By then calling the ones in ME2 a disservice you are equating the two with nudity. Please explain to me how the ME2 romance scenes are not thoughtful and appropriate.

This is still a 'moar porn' perspective.

[Cloaking_Thane]

Ive explained it way to many times previously in this thread to be bothered typing it out again to another critical thinker such as yourself.



Read the thread or at least the last 4/5 pages that will give you all the perspective and reason that basically destroys your "argument"



It's not even close to a moar porn argument.

[flint1954]

I am glad that all my work with team mates paid off. The scene with Liara was dissappointing but still I was glad to be able to see partial nudity. More people need to be responsible enough to research what they are buying for their children so those of us that are of age can enjoy the contaent of our games. Was able to sleep with Liara in Mass Effect 1 also Miranda and Tali in Mass Effect 2. Would really liked to have seen some more nudity, especially after going taking the time to get the relationships going. Should make different reted games for pc users.  

[MilkyMoor]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Ive explained it way to many times previously in this thread to be bothered typing it out again to another critical thinker such as yourself.

Read the thread or at least the last 4/5 pages that will give you all the perspective and reason that basically destroys your "argument"

It's not even close to a moar porn argument.

Come on, if you've said it 'way to many times' it must be simple to find it and copy/paste it.

Oh, actually:

Whats the point of romancing at all then?

At currently there is hardly a "reward" for the emotional investment put into the relationships

We are emotional and visceral animals at our core. The game is rated mature whether you like it or not. W/ that mature label we got more drinking, dancing, tighter clothes, etc etc., and the ending is a peck on the cheek or bra dance?

Get out of here w/ that nonsense, its not even ME1 standards.

Those first two you are directly equating nudity with a reward, even going so far as to saying that TnA is basically the SOLE PURPOSE of going through a romance subplot. The third one is another 'Where is my nudity in my adult game, Bioware?' with an additional 'This isn't how it was in ME1!'

If anything you just strengthened my argument, thanks. Whether you will admit it or not this is a 'moar porn' argument. You are saying you need nudity to validate any in-game relationships.

Should I go through more of your posts?

[Cloaking_Thane]

You selectively copied to suit your needs.

Typical.

Moreover, I never said it needs "TnA", just the equivalent of ME1 scenes. That has been and will be my only argument against the ME2 scenes.

Get over youself mate.

Modifié par Cloaking_Thane, 19 février 2010 - 03:07 .

[Cloaking_Thane]

Only strengthened in your mind. Not a well reasoned mind.



There are a few more eloquent posts than mine, but none the less I'll defend mine as you selective took them out of context.

[MilkyMoor]

I actually went to page 30 and copied the first three posts of yours I found. If it'll make you feel better I'll copy all your posts because I know I will find nothing different but I want you to retain at least a modicum of respect.

But, okay, here's one on Page 31.

Because one option leaves alot to be desired as descibed per my other post.

Please explain to me how nudity is required for your 'emotional investment'. Please explain why you see nudity as a reward, to such an extent that you see it as the reason why you should engage in a romance subplot. Why does a lack of it mean there's 'alot to be desired'?

ME1 scenes were sideboob and ass. TnA.

And if you can do so without resorting to personal attacks I will extol your virtues in my signature.

Modifié par MilkyMoor, 19 février 2010 - 03:16 .

[Cloaking_Thane]

TheTrooper1138 wrote...

durasteel wrote...

Fumbleumble wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Fumbleumble, I'm reasonably certain the "agree with me or you're wrong" stance also isn't productive.

Then show me how I'm wrong... give me justification that there are gains to be made in terms of 'character development' when the only addition is naked wireframes.

The difficulty seems to be that you don't want to acknowledge the obvious, and others seem to have difficulty putting something completely obvious into concise statement.  I'll try, therefore, to give you what you ask for.

First, let's dispense with this "graphic sex" nonsense.  No one is asking for it.  No demand for Shepard porn, no cry for Liara smut, no drive for Ashley hardcore.  None.  There is almost universal acclaim for the scenes from the first Mass Effect game, which stops at butt shots and side-boob, as you are doubtless well aware.  This is not graphical sex.

What Mass Effect's scenes of intimacy do have, however, is soft-focus camera shots from careful angles (to avoid graphic naughtiness) that make it clear that the characters are naked together.  That's your justification, right there.  Humans have a visceral reaction to nakedness.  Nothing else can more effectively communicate the lowering of barriers and the vulnerability that is inherent in intimate encounters.  If two people cuddle with clothes on, it is sweet.  Absent clothing, it becomes much more.

This is something that BioWare is clearly aware of, because they used these principles effectively in their depiction of Jack.  She is essentially topless from the moment she's introduced, with her life story etched literally onto her skin.  On the one hand, she has no secrets and nothing to hide, while on the other hand she is inaccessible and withdrawn, hidden in a dark corner in the belly of the Normandy.  It is a great metaphor for her entire character.

This is not an issue of seeing Tali's boobies.  This is about seeing Shepard and Tali (or Shepard and Miranda, Shepard and Garrus, Shepard and... you get the picture) with their defenses down, sharing a moment of complete openness and trust.  That's the difference between Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 in this regard: while you know, cognitively, that that moment of intimacy took place before the Omega Relay, you know it viscerally - you feel it - before Ilos.  You feel it because you saw it.  There was no graphic sex, but there was tenderness and passion, and we saw intimacy, trust, and mutual surrender in that moment communicated through the depiction of two people being naked together.

The single greatest thing that sets BioWare games apart from those of other developers is the emotional involvement in the characters and story.  I will remember, as long as I live, the way I felt the first time I saw the Revan reveal, or the first time Bastila said "nothing could make me feel safer than to be loved by you."  BioWare hires the best writers and voice actors to make sure that the emotional connection is made, and in Mass Effect they went even farther, showing intimacy, trust, and vulnerability in the most effective way possible.

Now, you might want to compare KotOR and ME2 and suggest that the former should set the standard for the latter, never mind ME1.  That's not appropriate.  In Knights of the Old Republic, no one actually had an intimate encounter.  In Mass Effect 2, however, booty is called.  The way it is handled in the game, however, is not as satisfying, and does not create the visceral, emotional response that Mass Effect offered.

 Many people assert that they liked the love scene in Mass Effect, and that they miss that in Mass Effect 2.  That's what this is about.  This isn't "give us porn."  This is "what you did there, I liked it.  Do it again."

Here's the "TL;DR" version of your justification: humans react emotionally to seeing two adults naked together, even if we don't see the naughty bits ourselves.  Emotional reactions are what BioWare games offer.  We want those moments, and miss them when we don't get them.

Best posting of the entire thread! Respect, couldn't have said that better (or even as well as you did ) myself!

Read this.

[Cloaking_Thane]

MilkyMoor wrote...

I actually went to page 30 and copied the first three posts of yours I found. If it'll make you feel better I'll copy all your posts because I know I will find nothing different but I want you to retain at least a modicum of respect.

But, okay, here's one on Page 31.

Because one option leaves alot to be desired as descibed per my other post.

Please explain to me how nudity is required for your 'emotional investment'. Please explain why you see nudity as a reward, to such an extent that you see it as the reason why you should engage in a romance subplot. Why does a lack of it mean there's 'alot to be desired'?

ME1 scenes were sideboob and ass. TnA.

And if you can do so without resorting to personal attacks I will extol your virtues in my signature.

It's not a requirement i didn't suggest it was, but why not leave it in?

It's does in my opinion leave a lot to be desired, but that doesnt mean I'm clamouring for boobies, the ME1 scenes were tastefully done. I can tell arguing w/ you would be like arguing w/ my dad. You think youre quite witty, but youve pulled things out of context.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with it in the first game?

Your only argument is "No nudity" if you want to call ME1 nudity, that is your perrogative, but frankly its not.

I submit to you to actually give an arguement other than "no, no nudity"

[MilkyMoor]

^^^ You don't get to tell me to answer first, bro. You're the one saying there's no emotional investment without nudity, explain it. The ****** and ass in ME1 was nudity, mild nudity, but still nudity. You are very odd to think otherwise.

The difficulty seems to be that you don't want to acknowledge the obvious, and others seem to have difficulty putting something completely obvious into concise statement.  I'll try, therefore, to give you what you ask for.

First, let's dispense with this "graphic sex" nonsense.  No one is asking for it.  No demand for Shepard porn, no cry for Liara smut, no drive for Ashley hardcore.  None.  There is almost universal acclaim for the scenes from the first Mass Effect game, which stops at butt shots and side-boob, as you are doubtless well aware.  This is not graphical sex.

What Mass Effect's scenes of intimacy do have, however, is soft-focus camera shots from careful angles (to avoid graphic naughtiness) that make it clear that the characters are naked together.  That's your justification, right there.  Humans have a visceral reaction to nakedness.  Nothing else can more effectively communicate the lowering of barriers and the vulnerability that is inherent in intimate encounters.  If two people cuddle with clothes on, it is sweet.  Absent clothing, it becomes much more.

This is something that BioWare is clearly aware of, because they used these principles effectively in their depiction of Jack.  She is essentially topless from the moment she's introduced, with her life story etched literally onto her skin.  On the one hand, she has no secrets and nothing to hide, while on the other hand she is inaccessible and withdrawn, hidden in a dark corner in the belly of the Normandy.  It is a great metaphor for her entire character.

This is not an issue of seeing Tali's boobies.  This is about seeing Shepard and Tali (or Shepard and Miranda, Shepard and Garrus, Shepard and... you get the picture) with their defenses down, sharing a moment of complete openness and trust.  That's the difference between Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 in this regard: while you know, cognitively, that that moment of intimacy took place before the Omega Relay, you know it viscerally - you feel it - before Ilos.  You feel it because you saw it.  There was no graphic sex, but there was tenderness and passion, and we saw intimacy, trust, and mutual surrender in that moment communicated through the depiction of two people being naked together.

The single greatest thing that sets BioWare games apart from those of other developers is the emotional involvement in the characters and story.  I will remember, as long as I live, the way I felt the first time I saw the Revan reveal, or the first time Bastila said "nothing could make me feel safer than to be loved by you."  BioWare hires the best writers and voice actors to make sure that the emotional connection is made, and in Mass Effect they went even farther, showing intimacy, trust, and vulnerability in the most effective way possible.

Now, you might want to compare KotOR and ME2 and suggest that the former should set the standard for the latter, never mind ME1.  That's not appropriate.  In Knights of the Old Republic, no one actually had an intimate encounter.  In Mass Effect 2, however, booty is called.  The way it is handled in the game, however, is not as satisfying, and does not create the visceral, emotional response that Mass Effect offered.

 Many people assert that they liked the love scene in Mass Effect, and that they miss that in Mass Effect 2.  That's what this is about.  This isn't "give us porn."  This is "what you did there, I liked it.  Do it again."

Here's the "TL;DR" version of your justification: humans react emotionally to seeing two adults naked together, even if we don't see the naughty bits ourselves.  Emotional reactions are what BioWare games offer.  We want those moments, and miss them when we don't get them.

This paragraph uses a lot of words to say very little, sorry, Cloaking_Thane. Very little of it is actually relevent. A lot of it is basically 'This is how Mass Effect 1 did it', but Mass Effect 2 is not Mass Effect 1.

Again, this post directly says that nudity is required for "intimacy, trust, and vulnerability". It does not give reasons why this is beyond the fact that they are naked.

Tell me why this is, tell me why this is without saying 'it's how Mass Effect 1 did it'.

And then explain to me how, for example, Tali's Omega-4 relay scene does not illustrate those same three things. Or Garrus' scene. Or Jack's.

Modifié par MilkyMoor, 19 février 2010 - 03:26 .

[Cloaking_Thane]

I'm glad you can just ignore everything that is posted. Must be nice living in your world. If you can't see the reasoning by now then I'm honestly not going to bother, even though I'm currently wasting time at work this is indeed a waste of both of our times as neither one will dissuade the other.

I submit agree to disagree

Modifié par Cloaking_Thane, 19 février 2010 - 03:33 .

[MilkyMoor]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

I'm glad you can just ignore everything that is posted. Must be nice living in your world. If you can't see the reasoning by now then I'm honestly not going to bother, even though I'm currently wasting time at work this is indeed a waste of both of our times as neither one will dissuade the other.

I submit agree to disagree

Concession accepted.

Is there a single person here who can provide a relevent and thought-out post that illustrates how nudity is required for intimacy, trust and etc.? And, if so, why it is so important when the ME2 scenes clearly demonstrate those?

But do not bother making any points that involve 'It is how ME1 did it'. ME1 did a lot of things differently. Do not say there was no nudity in ME1, sideboob and ass is still nudity. Don't tell me that ME2 is an adult game and, therefore, should have it.

Those things are all irrelevent. You want me to believe that nudity is important in a video game because it's the only way to convey a sense of intimacy, trust and vulnerability? Prove it.

Modifié par MilkyMoor, 19 février 2010 - 03:40 .

[Cloaking_Thane]

Sorry no concession, but agree to disagree. There is a big difference as I'm not conceeding any points to you.



Just saying. I am however done w/ this topic for now.

[MilkyMoor]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Sorry no concession, but agree to disagree. There is a big difference as I'm not conceeding any points to you.

Just saying. I am however done w/ this topic for now.

Your failure to provide adequate evidence (and, more importantly, your resorting to ad hominem attacks) is all the proof I need of your concession. Sorry mate.

I'm just asking why intimacy and vulnerability only seems to, in so many people's mind, come with nudity. I want to see why this is.