954 réponses à ce sujet

[ian528]

Marcin R wrote...

MilkyMoor wrote...

I'm just going to copy/paste this post from another thread. There are a few posts I see where people are saying Mass Effect 2 is not adult because there is no nudity and, therefore, doesn't deserve the rating it got.

exxxed wrote...

Valid point broa'.

On my Collector's Edition box there's a big 18+ sign on the bottom left corner... sincerely i didn't see nothing in this game that screamed 18+.

Even in ME 1 you had allot more ''nudity'', though here you have allot more colorful text and dialogue.

AO rating seems kind of harsh due to the fact that compared to 18+ movies this game fails miserably, i would understand if you had full control over the camera during a certain scene, but since it's scripted and you still watch it like a movie and don't see crap, i would have given this game a 12+ rating.

Cheers!

I'm just going to quote this post again because this is the line of thinking many people seem to have.

Exxxed is directly stating that Mass Effect 2 deserves a 12+ rating and is not an adult game. He is saying that Mass Effect 2 is fine for kids to play unsupervised.

I would like to remind everyone Mass Effect 2 is a game that deals with (among other things):

Murder (in self-defence and otherwise) including many heinous deaths such as electrocution and immolation.
Mindless acts of violence against innocents
Genocide of sentient species (not conducted by the antagonists)
Torture (conducted by the protagonist)
Threats to perform all of the above (by the protagonist)
Drug use, including addiction and trafficking.
Slavery (of sentient species)
Inflicted mental handicaps for sexual purposes
Extortion, blackmail, etc.
Industrial Sabotage
Corporate espionage
Biological warfare
Strip Clubs
Serial Killers
Eugenics
Swearing
Sexual innuendo
Inter-species relationships
Beastiality
Animal pit-fighting

And yet it is nudity that makes something 'adult' in the minds of most people. To such an extent that a game cannot be considered 'adult' without it.

This is not a 'we should protect the children' post, by the way, but maybe it'll get people thinking that Mass Effect 2 is an adult game despite it's lack of nudity. I doubt it, but anything's possible.

MilkyMoor i am sure, that most to us here understands what 18+game includes, but the discussion is not "is it 12+ or 18+ game" but how sex/romance part was handled
that's what this thread is all about in  my opinion...
with of course you do not have to agree...

I think MilkyMoor have missed the point of this thread while posting something relevant.  This is a general discussion about how several people myself included felt that this was an adult or 18+ game and that it handled the romantic climax like it was a Tween romance novel(Twilight).  ME 2 is not and should never be thought of as a kids game.  It is handling adult topics. I just want it to portray a more adult relationship.  It is tonally odd that this game which is dealing with so much adult content does stops short of where the first game did in terms of showing the full development of a relationship.  

It is like watching some of those classic black and white movies where the sexual banter is going hot and heavy and yet there are always two beds in the bedroom.  It is an odd disconnect that deals with the sexual morays of the time and does not deal with the obvious source of all the banter.  In ME2, you have a romantic build up that leads you to what is not a very satisfying conclusion.  With all the very adult topics that they deal with in a variety of ways what made it impossible for them to give us the same level of sophistication when dealing with the natural progression of a romantic relationship?

[Titan98RG]

MilkyMoor wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Sorry no concession, but agree to disagree. There is a big difference as I'm not conceeding any points to you.

Just saying. I am however done w/ this topic for now.

Your failure to provide adequate evidence (and, more importantly, your resorting to ad hominem attacks) is all the proof I need of your concession. Sorry mate.

I'm just asking why intimacy and vulnerability only seems to, in so many people's mind, come with nudity. I want to see why this is.

i'm going to agree with Cloaking_Thane here.  just consider how relationships in real life require an acceptance of a person both emotionally and physically.  i just don't think you can accept someone physically unless nudity is involved.  given that, seeing even the illusion of total nudity in ME1 helps with the emotional acceptance of the virtual relationship.  that part is what's missing in ME2.

[Cloaking_Thane]

MilkyMoor wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Sorry no concession, but agree to disagree. There is a big difference as I'm not conceeding any points to you.

Just saying. I am however done w/ this topic for now.

Your failure to provide adequate evidence (and, more importantly, your resorting to ad hominem attacks) is all the proof I need of your concession. Sorry mate.

I'm just asking why intimacy and vulnerability only seems to, in so many people's mind, come with nudity. I want to see why this is.

I provided evidence you just don't agree with it as is well within your right, and it is solely your opinion.

As it is mine.

I don't need to provide proof or evidence as this isn't a factual claim. Your intellectual high ground is failing.

Please lets call a spade a spade and indeed agree to disagree as thats what we are doing.

No concessions have been or are being made.

[ian528]

MilkyMoor wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

I'm glad you can just ignore everything that is posted. Must be nice living in your world. If you can't see the reasoning by now then I'm honestly not going to bother, even though I'm currently wasting time at work this is indeed a waste of both of our times as neither one will dissuade the other.

I submit agree to disagree

Concession accepted.

Is there a single person here who can provide a relevent and thought-out post that illustrates how nudity is required for intimacy, trust and etc.? And, if so, why it is so important when the ME2 scenes clearly demonstrate those?

But do not bother making any points that involve 'It is how ME1 did it'. ME1 did a lot of things differently. Do not say there was no nudity in ME1, sideboob and ass is still nudity. Don't tell me that ME2 is an adult game and, therefore, should have it.

Those things are all irrelevent. You want me to believe that nudity is important in a video game because it's the only way to convey a sense of intimacy, trust and vulnerability? Prove it.

Nudity is not required for intimacy and trust.  Never has been.  However, when you are talking about romantic intimacy it helps to cement that relationship and take that relationship somewhere further.


I think that I can clearly illustrate the point with a rather famous nude scene.  
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104036/ 

If you have ever seen this movie it deals with a great many adult issues and is story telling at its finest.  However, in the middle of the film is this pivotal nude scene.  This is where you find out that Dil is a man.  It is a peak of tension and is built well by all the parties involved.  The fact that Dil is a man immediately changes the relationship and it also changes the relationship of the audience watching the movie.  Jaye Davis made an excellent woman and several friends I had who knew the twist were still surprised when it was revealed.  The movie built a relationship between Dil and Fergus.  The director very deftly got the audience to feel that they were Fergus.  They understood his choices and understood where he was coming from.  They empathized with him and in some ways were vicariously feeling the same budding relationship with Dil themselves.  And in that moment as you see Dil truly exposed for all that he is there is a jarring scene.  Fergus is a heterosexual male and he has fallen for Dil.  The audience has also fallen for Dil and is similarly jarred into reexamining what they felt and why.  Nudity was needed it brought an intimacy with Fergus and the audience that was not entirely expected.  

In Mass Effect 1 the nudity was used as well and brought Sheppard and the player more into the story.  ME 2 slips back and does not let that ultimately vulnerable moment happen.

[Titan98RG]

ian528 wrote...

Nudity is not required for intimacy and trust.  Never has been. 

i dunno if i totally agree with that.  while there are obviously different levels of trust...i doubt anyone would voluntarily trust their bank account information to someone who hasn't seen them naked.

[MilkyMoor]

Titan98RG wrote...
i'm going to agree with Cloaking_Thane here.  just consider how relationships in real life require an acceptance of a person both emotionally and physically.  i just don't think you can accept someone physically unless nudity is involved.  given that, seeing even the illusion of total nudity in ME1 helps with the emotional acceptance of the virtual relationship.  that part is what's missing in ME2.

You are completely right, you can't accept someone physically unless they're naked (for the most part).

However, that does not mean the lack of nudity means a failure to convey intimacy and trust. Let's take the Tali scene, for example.

Tali literally tells you that she trusts you enough to follow you into Cerberus (an organisation she despises), work with a Geth and - ultimately - risk death, she confides in Shepard at multiple points and then, later, Tali comes up to Shepard's quarters and removes her mask. The emotions are there, it is an amazing display of intimacy. In Tali's case, removing the rest of the suit serves no purpose except the aforementioned excuse for nudity.

And in the case of a Turian/Quarian/Drell and Human relationship, you could argue that physical acceptance is already there. Maybe Shepard has a xeno fetish, or perhaps Shepard just doesn't care. It is entirely possible to want to be with someone regardless of what they look like, and I doubt Shepard would have had second thoughts when Garrus or Tali finally got naked.

The thing is, if they had them get naked, there'd be the possibility that the player would freak out. With the aliens at least, keeping them 'unknown' allows players to always be happy with it.

Miranda and Jacob, on the other hand, don't have as convenient an excuse.

I'm not saying nudity is bad. I'm saying the ideas that there can't be emotional intimacy - probably the most important part of a relationship - without it (I'm assuming people mean intimacy and not using it as an euphemism for sex) are flawed.

Modifié par MilkyMoor, 19 février 2010 - 04:35 .

[Aetas Mutuo]

I remember when the first game was described by someone one Fox News as "Luke Skywalker meets Debbie Does Dallas." That was over about 20 seconds of side-boob and a naked back with the butt framed out.

Everything else is more explicit in the second game, headshots, shooting people as they crawl to safety, language, slavery themes. Even the strip club is more explicit.

America, as a whole, is too sexually repressed and uptight. I don’t really care that the sex in ME2 is not more explicit. Having more explicit sex would not have made the story any better or worse for me. But it bothers me that the most likely reason it is less explicit then the first game is due to self-censorship because of the crap the conservative media put them through with ME1.

[Crazy_Cat_Lady]

I'm glad to see this topic is still going strong. Hopefully it gives Bioware some food for thought for ME3.

[ian528]

MilkyMoor wrote...

Tali literally tells you that she trusts you enough to follow you into Cerberus (an organisation she despises), work with a Geth and - ultimately - risk death, she confides in Shepard at multiple points and then, later, Tali comes up to Shepard's quarters and removes her mask. The emotions are there. In Tali's case, removing the rest of the suit serves no purpose except the aforementioned excuse for nudity.

Listen to what Tali said in the game more closely. I will admit I am a huge fan of Tali's and she is my first choice for a romantic relationship.  In the game, she talks about want someone to finally be able to see her and see what she really looks like.  Sheppard sees this but the player does not.  Bioware has created a situation where it did not really fulfill the promise of the relationship.  The player invest in seeing Tali as she really is and I think it is clear that Tali let Sheppard see all of her.  It was the most private and personal thing she could do.  No one not even her father had truly seen her.  I felt let down as a player that I was not let into that experience that I had invested time in.

[Lonely_Fat_Guy]

Aetas Mutuo wrote...

I remember when the first game was described by someone one Fox News as "Luke Skywalker meets Debbie Does Dallas." That was over about 20 seconds of side-boob and a naked back with the butt framed out.
Everything else is more explicit in the second game, headshots, shooting people as they crawl to safety, language, slavery themes. Even the strip club is more explicit.
America, as a whole, is too sexually repressed and uptight. I don’t really care that the sex in ME2 is not more explicit. Having more explicit sex would not have made the story any better or worse for me. But it bothers me that the most likely reason it is less explicit then the first game is due to self-censorship because of the crap the conservative media put them through with ME1.

bingo!

its ok too see heads explode but the whole world goes too hell if you see a nipple?
this is really f'd up in america

[Titan98RG]

MilkyMoor wrote...

I'm not saying nudity is bad. I'm saying the ideas that there can't be emotional intimacy - probably the most important part of a relationship - without it (I'm assuming people mean intimacy and not using it as an euphemism for sex) are flawed.

right, but i think the community is taking issue to the fact that they're already showing a lot of skin which...doesn't really serve any purpose (in the cases of miranda and jacob in particular...maybe less so with jack's final scene).  the scenes sort of play out to drive up sex appeal (more hot and bothered), but lack the emotional investment (and less romantic).

i'm not sure the fans are asking for a naked tali, though if i'm wrong...i don't want to know.

edit:

ian528 wrote...

The player invest in
seeing Tali as she really is and I think it is clear that Tali let
Sheppard see all of her.  It was the most private and personal thing
she could do.  No one not even her father had truly seen her.  I felt
let down as a player that I was not let into that experience that I had
invested time in.

well, i guess i can accept that.

Modifié par Titan98RG, 19 février 2010 - 04:47 .

[MilkyMoor]

ian528 wrote...

MilkyMoor wrote...

Tali literally tells you that she trusts you enough to follow you into Cerberus (an organisation she despises), work with a Geth and - ultimately - risk death, she confides in Shepard at multiple points and then, later, Tali comes up to Shepard's quarters and removes her mask. The emotions are there. In Tali's case, removing the rest of the suit serves no purpose except the aforementioned excuse for nudity.

Listen to what Tali said in the game more closely. I will admit I am a huge fan of Tali's and she is my first choice for a romantic relationship.  In the game, she talks about want someone to finally be able to see her and see what she really looks like.  Sheppard sees this but the player does not.  Bioware has created a situation where it did not really fulfill the promise of the relationship.  The player invest in seeing Tali as she really is and I think it is clear that Tali let Sheppard see all of her.  It was the most private and personal thing she could do.  No one not even her father had truly seen her.  I felt let down as a player that I was not let into that experience that I had invested time in.

The problem with that is that Tali has been so, well, fantasized about (no idea how else to put it) that Bioware is in a difficult position. Any 'canon' depiction of a Quarian will, almost definitely, annoy a lot of people. I wouldn't care, Shepard likes Tali either way. Even if they wanted to keep her face a secret, and still show her body, that'd be difficult.

To me, just knowing that Shepard saw it and was fine with Tali's face - whatever it was - was enough. The intimacy of the moment is heightened because we don't know what Tali looks like and we can essentially put Shepard's own 'dream girl' in there.

Bioware didn't really promise to reveal Tali's form. It's a bit of a rip, yeah, but they're in a difficult position when it comes to any Quarian.

right, but i think the community is taking issue to the fact that they're already showing a lot of skin which...doesn't really serve any purpose (in the cases of miranda and jacob in particular...maybe less so with jack's final scene).  the scenes sort of play out to drive up sex appeal (more hot and bothered), but lack the emotional investment (and less romantic).

i'm not sure the fans are asking for a naked tali, though if i'm wrong...i don't want to know.

Interesting. I'd say that the scenes have a good deal of romantic emotional involvement and that it seems like players take an issue with not being able to really see the physical side of it. Jacob and Miranda both go topless (like it or not, girls in bras are generally regarded as topless in the media*). However, even partially clothed, their two scenes make much more sense then, for example, Dragon Age's. What we see in ME2 is essentially foreplay. I think that leaving it up to the player's mind is far more effective.

*There was a news story a few years ago about a female soccer player. Upon winning the game she pulled off her top, left her bra on, and ran around - like a lot of male players do. Well, the media had a field day.

Modifié par MilkyMoor, 19 février 2010 - 04:55 .

[Manny NL]

BeLikeHan wrote...

SunglareAK wrote...

Manny NL wrote...

 I find it unbelievable that there really is a discussion about sex and nudity in game, while we (or you) apear to find it  no problem that the game is filled with violence and killing!!!! Apparently it is ok to shoot and kill, but it is wrong to love and have a good f*** (especially after killing some aliens) !!


Sorry if i am wrong, but i bet it is mostly americans who complain about sex in (violent) games, since they are known for their hypocrism. 

Really? Just after Stanley posted about no name calling. You slam Americans? Time to climb off your high-horse.
Every country in the world are just as much of Hypocrites as Americans, but i digress since this isn't related to the topic at hand.

What we do know based off what Stanley said is that it was biowares own decision to change how the love scenes were done. Not some lame reporting that was on FOX, that was more about one man who has issues with games. Nor was is EA's doing. I'm thinking that they are holding the big romance for ME3. ME2 was about being faithful to your original romance or do you start something new. 

There is also the Stanley Woo anti romance office protest theory that i believe holds water,  "but that's just my personal opinion, no need to tell anybody about it."

I understand your point here, but to be fair, America does have a reputation for being quite puritanical with its media, at least in regards to sex. Of course, we are just as violent, foul-mouthed, horny, etc etc as any other people around the world, but for some reason we tend to stray away from sex and nudity in a way that is really not common in other countries. I think our incredibly uneven treatment of violence and sexuality is pretty hypocritical.

But as you said. Thread topic...I do find it strange that so many people who are obviously united in their love of Bioware and gaming on this forum should be at eachothers' throats in this thread just because some of us would have liked something a little more fleshed out (excuse the pun) in terms of the romances in the game. As others have said, I thought the scene in ME was really well done. They managed to avoid the childish and gratuitous nudity present in something like God Of War or what have you, without just fading to black and simply implying that you may or may not have boned an alien. It was a really finely crafted scene, which comes as no surprise from the guys at Bioware. I expected something similar in ME2, and got something much tamer, and yes, it was a bit of a let down. Not because I don't know how to work the internet and I'm just DYING to see some risky polygons. But because, in a game like this where character interaction and development is a major part of what makes the game, that scene is the culmination of an immense journey. You can cry "NERD" all you want, but Mass Effect has created a universe filled with characters that I genuinely like and have become invested in (in a very healthy way I promise. No Avatar.) and the scene was just a little less than I expected. After all, if you went into a battle and after firing a few shots the screen dimmed and cut away, and the game resumed at the next scene...wouldn't you feel a little cheated? I know, the analogy is extreme. But the relationships you build with other characters is one of the major factors that puts Mass Effect, and Bioware in general, at the top of the current gaming scene. You are Shepard, you shape him (or her), and experience this epic tale alongside your companions who you build a report with over the course of the game (or two games, depending). It's just strange to spend 47 hours right there with Shepard through every brutal decision, every scare, every battle, every humorous exhange, and then be pulled out of this particular "action" as if you were a 12 year old child seeing an R-rated movie with your parents.

But I digress. Though I have my opinion, it is in no way something that I feel the need to be SUPER DUPER angry about, or start some infantile boycott or anything. ME2 is one of the finest gaming experiences I have ever had, but it's inevitable that with a game of this magnitude you will come across some things you don't necessarily see eye-to-eye with the devs on. We all have our own little list of things we might have tweaked in Mass Effect one way or the other. This is one area where I just would have liked a little more. As it is, I'll live. It's still a fantastic game. And one which I apparently like to talk about way too much...

BelikeHan: You are very right. My compliments about the way you reply to this all

[Titan98RG]

MilkyMoor wrote...

Interesting. I'd say that the scenes have a good deal of romantic emotional involvement and that it seems like players take an issue with not being able to really see the physical side of it. Jacob and Miranda both go topless (like it or not, girls in bras are generally regarded as topless in the media*). However, even partially clothed, their two scenes make much more sense then, for example, Dragon Age's. What we see in ME2 is essentially foreplay. I think that leaving it up to the player's mind is far more effective.

hm, well perhaps i'm equating the scenes in ME2 to having more of a quickie feel (namely miranda's and jacob's...though i thought tali's and jack's [minus the crying part...that's just a bit awakward and makes me feel like i'm taking advantage] were well done) while the scenes from ME1 seem more prolonged and tender as a result of the nudity.

[Shinka Prime]

Titan98RG wrote...

MilkyMoor wrote...

Interesting. I'd say that the scenes have a good deal of romantic emotional involvement and that it seems like players take an issue with not being able to really see the physical side of it. Jacob and Miranda both go topless (like it or not, girls in bras are generally regarded as topless in the media*). However, even partially clothed, their two scenes make much more sense then, for example, Dragon Age's. What we see in ME2 is essentially foreplay. I think that leaving it up to the player's mind is far more effective.

hm, well perhaps i'm equating the scenes in ME2 to having more of a quickie feel (namely miranda's and jacob's...though i thought tali's and jack's [minus the crying part...that's just a bit awakward and makes me feel like i'm taking advantage] were well done) while the scenes from ME1 seem more prolonged and tender as a result of the nudity.

That was my thought exactly!!! Hi Milky lol!!!
Seriously though, in ME1 the scenes were tender, caring, and very fitting. The scenes in ME2 feel like a Nooner.

[Marcin K]

Shinka Prime wrote...



That was my thought exactly!!! Hi Milky lol!!!
Seriously though, in ME1 the scenes were tender, caring, and very fitting. The scenes in ME2 feel like a Nooner.

another statement that nails whole topic 100% good

[leeboi2]

[I have nothing contructive to add to this discussion.]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 19 février 2010 - 11:48 .

[elitextrem3]

Have you guys seen the Heavy Rain sex scene. It does have some nudity but I personally think that it is well done. I have yet to play the game so I really don't know the context of the whole scene. Anyways here it is, sorry if it was already posted.
www.gametrailers.com/user-movie/heavy-rain-sex-scene/339865

[Costin_Razvan]

Now that was....epic.

Anyway, regarding the sex and nudity in Mass Effect. Bioware dug their own grave in that regard. Through their sheer stupidity ( or sheer wisdom, considering it almost doubled sales ) they advertised the game as having sex in it. Of course Fox news mauled them to death with ( unlike Heavy Rain for example, which contains a hell lot more nudity then ME1 ) since they used it to get game buyers.

As a direct result they couldn't make more nude sex scenes in ME2, because then Fox News would **** with them again ( regardless of what Bioware might say, that FN didn't affect their decision )

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 19 février 2010 - 09:09 .

[Monstruo696]

Sex-scenes are cheesy as ****.

Excuse the pun, but the game doesn't need them. I'm fine with either the brief ME1 scenes or the "emotional" moments in ME2.

Modifié par Monstruo696, 19 février 2010 - 09:10 .

[Acero Azul]

Prioris wrote...

I'm not sure nudity or the lack thereof is really the complaint, it's that ME2 regressed from ME1 in its portrayal of the romance options. After a very tastefully rendered scene in ME1, we got a few kisses and a Sexy Discretion Shot in ME2. I think a lot of players at least wanted the same level of detail paid to the romances from game to game.

That said, I'm quite glad I stayed faithful to my ME1 love interest in my first playthrough. I think I, too, would have felt rather cheated, from an emotional perspective if nothing else. It's like the game is acknowledging that your replacement paramour is just that, a replacement, and a second-best option at that.

they stepped back in the length and idea for the sex scenes, but they also opened up more romance options for the players and they were all different unlike ME1 where it was liara or ashley and it was the same scene. If they keep the things they did in ME2 and add more length to them they would have turned out much better.

[Costin_Razvan]

Monstruo696 wrote...

Sex-scenes are cheesy as ****.

Excuse the pun, but the game doesn't need them. I'm fine with either the brief ME1 scenes or the "touching" moments in ME2.

I wouldn't have cared it at all if they had made romance scenes like the ones in ME1, but in ME2 I felt I got pissed on in the Tali Romance scene for example. I mean you build this whole relation over TWO games with her ( thats over 50 hours for some ) and in the end we get what? a scene where she jumps on you and five seconds later it fades to black? 

Excuse me, but if I didn't have the whole going through Omega 4 Relay right after that. I would thrownd my game disks against the wall.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 19 février 2010 - 09:33 .

[Lopake]

That heavy rain scene is too much



I would feel weird playing that

[Monstruo696]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I wouldn't have cared it at all if they had made romance scenes like the ones in ME1, but in ME2 I felt I got pissed on in the Tali Romance scene for example. I mean you build this whole relation over TWO games with her ( thats over 50 hours for some ) and in the end we get what? a scene where she jumps on you and five seconds later it fades to black? 

Excuse me, but if I didn't have the whole going through Omega 4 Relay right after that. I would thrownd my game disks against the wall.

Get over yourself, this isn't a dating-sim.

[TornadoADV]

I just feel that the need to sexualize the relationship comes off as a bit cheap when the game doesn't even give you the skin to show it. I was perfectly fine with what they did with Tali and the way they didn't take the easy MILF route with Samara. I would of felt a lot better if the scenes right before the final battle weren't alluding to sex, but instead you could have a really close and deeply personal moment with the love of choice.