954 réponses à ce sujet

[Kalfear]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Let's take the name-calling and insults out of the discussion, please. Since my original comments are coming around again (even after I explained and clarified my meaning in a separate thread a couple weeks ago), methinks people are just arguing in circles and it may soon be time to reboot the discussion. We'll see...

I actually agree Stanley.

While still a few new posters saying their peace for you to hear more and more kiddy trolls like Monstruo696 intentionally ignoring whats been said and what thread is about to make stupid comments about sexy time and porn and yada yada yada (we both seen the flame attempts by these types of posters).

By now, you and the other Bioware uppiddy ups should know what our point is and why we making it and since we your actual target age subscribers (over 17) there not much sence in continueing conversation with the kiddie trolls.

PS: I dont concider calling Monstruo696 a kiddie troll name calling cause thats all hes doing. I dont agree with the ****** crowd but you dont see me going in there makeing statments like they just want to watch icons do each other up the butt (or other oinflaming comments meant to garner negative responces...like the childish statement "Sexy Time"). Thats because, mentally, Im older then 13 and can understand others opinoins and stances, even if I dont agree with it!

Just thought Id point that out, its not name calling if its true.

PPS: As for you explaining comments, thread this big your not going to get people reading every page to find those comments. Heck the flamers wont even read the first page to learn what conversation really about, if thats to much for them, how can you honestly expect other to read all the others? (just saying is all)

[leeboi2]

I think that if strip joints and crack dens are introduced into the game then It'll catch the attention of drug addicts and losers who hang out in strip joints, thus improving productivity...Run it by EA, we know how they love their money.

Modifié par leeboi2, 21 février 2010 - 12:28 .

[Impresario]

The conclusions that we can draw from this thread are:
1. A significant percentage of adults were underwhelmed by the sanitized portrayal of romance.
2. That disatisfaction extends to both the adolescent-like romance dialogue and the juvenile-friendly physical enounters.
3. Bioware is underestimating the size of their adult target market, or
4. The adult target market is underestimating the size of Bioware's teen market, or
5. Bioware knows exactly what they're doing and is targeting both markets, consequently the content intentionally--is what it is.

Modifié par Impresario, 21 février 2010 - 12:52 .

[tenshi_no_hone]

Surely these are two separate issues:

First - whether you feel the character development lead to a good sense of emotional connection between the love interest and the protagonist

Second - whether you feel nudity is needed to demonstrate that emotional connection

I don't really see why the second one is an issue in a story driven game. Why is sex the most important part of the relationship you've built, when you've built relationships with 9 other squadmates (ignoring Zaeed) without sleeping with them? And even if it is - why is seeing them naked rather than physically close and initimate with Shepard so important?

Modifié par tenshi_no_hone, 21 février 2010 - 01:00 .

[Heliosas]

Impresario wrote...

The conclusions that we can draw from this thread are:
1. A significant percentage of adults were underwhelmed by the sanitized portrayal of romance.
2. That disatisfaction extends to both the adolescent-like romance dialogue and the juvenile-friendly physical enounters.
3. Bioware is underestimating the size of their adult target market, or
4. The adult target market is underestimating the size of Bioware's teen market, or
5. Bioware knows exactly what they're doing and is targeting both markets, consequently the content intentionally--is what it is.

1 & 2 - Yes

3 & 5 - Maybe

4 - No

[Al-the-Catman]

tenshi_no_hone wrote...

Surely these are two separate issues:

First - whether you feel the character development lead to a good sense of emotional connection between the love interest and the protagonist

Second - whether you feel nudity is needed to demonstrate that emotional connection

I don't really see why the second one is an issue in a story driven game. Why is sex the most important part of the relationship you've built, when you've built relationships with 9 other squadmates (ignoring Zaeed) without sleeping with them? And even if it is - why is seeing them naked rather than physically close and initimate with Shepard so important?

B/c sex sells, wheter it seems to complement something or not.

[Grizzly46]

I have already stated my opinion regarding the more intimate scenes, and I would like to focus on something similar now, the path to that scene, which is a) way too easy and very hard to divert from. Let me take a recent example from ME1:

A few hours into the game, it is possible to talk to Ashley and be invited for a drink, celebrating armistice day. No matter WHAT you say, all of a sudden the question "are you still interested in me" pops up from virtually nowhere. Whisky Tango Foxtrot? We talked about your grand dad's involvment in the Shanxi defeat, and now all of a sudden she is asking if she has a chance on me?

This pisses me off. I had no chance whatsoever of trying to become friends, a goal I see as just as good as any love interest, but noo, that can't be done. In BG2 you had at least more time to let uninteresting potential LI's down gently, and it was still possible to talk to them afterwards.

Oh yes, while at it: one reason I try to get Miranda into the black suit ASAP is because the ridiclous butt crack pants won't show as clearly in them... It can't be comfortable and it is damn sure not sexy... This is just another example of the half-heartedness of the development: you get all these hints to what will come, and when it comes, it just isn't up to par. No, either cut out everything that has to do with romances or do it properly.

Modifié par Grizzly46, 21 février 2010 - 03:19 .

[SirGladiator]

My personal take on it is that all I really ask to see as the 'culmination' of the romance is kissing, it doesn't have to go any further than that and Im quite happy. Having said that, the scenes in ME1 were clearly done quite tastefully and everybody seemed to like them, so I don't really understand why they changed it so much.

[addiction21]

Grizzly46 wrote...

I have already stated my opinion regarding the more intimate scenes, and I would like to focus on something similar now, the path to that scene, which is a) way too easy and very hard to divert from. Let me take a recent example from ME1:

A few hours into the game, it is possible to talk to Ashley and be invited for a drink, celebrating armistice day. No matter WHAT you say, all of a sudden the question "are you still interested in me" pops up from virtually nowhere. Whisky Tango Foxtrot? We talked about your grand dad's involvment in the Shanxi defeat, and now all of a sudden she is asking if she has a chance on me?

This pisses me off. I had no chance whatsoever of trying to become friends, a goal I see as just as good as any love interest, but noo, that can't be done. In BG2 you had at least more time to let uninteresting potential LI's down gently, and it was still possible to talk to them afterwards.

Oh yes, while at it: one reason I try to get Miranda into the black suit ASAP is because the ridiclous butt crack pants won't show as clearly in them... It can't be comfortable and it is damn sure not sexy... This is just another example of the half-heartedness of the development: you get all these hints to what will come, and when it comes, it just isn't up to par. No, either cut out everything that has to do with romances or do it properly.

This I can whole heartedly agree with. BioWares story telling is GREAT except the romantic part and it can get down right silly at times. Maybe if they spent a little more time on that aspect instead of trying to work in a camera angle that shows off Mirandas butt in ever scene possible...
Instead of having to put some work into making it happen you have to work to not make someone fall for you.
Also the fact that it has almost no impact on the actual game. Other then the "love scene" nothing is really added. First time thru my LI died and there was no no tear, no cheesy comment, hell shep did not even check on her first.

[Your Synthetic Superior]

addiction21 wrote...

This I can whole heartedly agree with. BioWares story telling is GREAT except the romantic part and it can get down right silly at times. Maybe if they spent a little more time on that aspect instead of trying to work in a camera angle that shows off Mirandas butt in ever scene possible...
Instead of having to put some work into making it happen you have to work to not make someone fall for you.
Also the fact that it has almost no impact on the actual game. Other then the "love scene" nothing is really added. First time thru my LI died and there was no no tear, no cheesy comment, hell shep did not even check on her first.

The problem with "romances" is that you either "romance" or don't speak to them at all after a certain point. Jack, Tali and Miranda.. even Kelly's non-duty related dialog is 100% romance based. If I recall, your either a dick to Kelly or flirting with her. No matter how much I tell Jack I'm not interested she keeps asking me if I want to have sex with her. ALL DIALOG LEADS TO ROMANCE ONLY. There is no platonic continuation of dialog if you don't want to romance someone. Surprisingly, I found it refreshing that Samara was completely 100% platonic (I played renegade). I'm surprised Dr. Chakwas didn't want a piece of Shepard's pie.

That's what annoys me. Same thing in ME1.

[Grizzly46]

Your Synthetic Superior wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

This I can whole heartedly agree with. BioWares story telling is GREAT except the romantic part and it can get down right silly at times. Maybe if they spent a little more time on that aspect instead of trying to work in a camera angle that shows off Mirandas butt in ever scene possible...
Instead of having to put some work into making it happen you have to work to not make someone fall for you.
Also the fact that it has almost no impact on the actual game. Other then the "love scene" nothing is really added. First time thru my LI died and there was no no tear, no cheesy comment, hell shep did not even check on her first.

The problem with "romances" is that you either "romance" or don't speak to them at all after a certain point. Jack, Tali and Miranda.. even Kelly's non-duty related dialog is 100% romance based. If I recall, your either a dick to Kelly or flirting with her. No matter how much I tell Jack I'm not interested she keeps asking me if I want to have sex with her. ALL DIALOG LEADS TO ROMANCE ONLY. There is no platonic continuation of dialog if you don't want to romance someone. Surprisingly, I found it refreshing that Samara was completely 100% platonic (I played renegade). I'm surprised Dr. Chakwas didn't want a piece of Shepard's pie.

That's what annoys me. Same thing in ME1.

+1. I found it very refreshing to have someone to just chat with, with about anything, even after her loyalty mission, and I would have loved having more of that with everybody - Jack sharing courtroom stories, Grunt finding out how to use a knife and fork, playing Battleship with Thane, hell ANYTHING!

And I agree with that camera angle thing as well - it was waay too obvious she was meant to be eye candy and a femme fatale for the majority of the players (ie, the guys). I don't mind candy, but I want to taste some sometimes as well, not just look at it... In ME2, I got two jelly bears and then the shop closed...

I find that when dealing with people in Mass Effect, I drift back into nostalgia over the Baldurs Gate games, especially BG2, whereas the party also had intearctions, opinions and a life without the protagonist, even if he had dropped them as LI's. This is one area that could most definately be improved.

[Canned Bullets]

**** Fox News.

[Varrenandchips]

I think Mass Effect should cover the topics of nudity and sex, but only to advance the story. I don't like it when a game just throws in sex for the sheer sake of sex. Mass Effect is in a realistic kind of SciFi world, where these kinds of things exist. If the establishment doesn't like it, too bad. If you want to complain about moral degradation in our society, go complain to MTV

[tenshi_no_hone]

@ Al-the-catman: whether sex sells or not doesn't matter when you're considering the effectiveness of the story for yourself. Besides, ME2 is the biggest selling January release videgame ever without explicit scenes. Sex may sell but most people buy videogames because they are fun to play rather than for a 30 second cinematic. Otherwise MW2 would be outsold by Heavy Rain.

It's true what other people are saying about it being hard to NOT romance someone though. I told Jack I wasn't looking for sex and then the next time I visited her she still wanted to know if I had feelings for her... some alternative, platonic-only dialogue would be a really good addition to ME3

[Grizzly46]

Varrenandchips wrote...

I think Mass Effect should cover the topics of nudity and sex, but only to advance the story. I don't like it when a game just throws in sex for the sheer sake of sex. Mass Effect is in a realistic kind of SciFi world, where these kinds of things exist. If the establishment doesn't like it, too bad. If you want to complain about moral degradation in our society, go complain to MTV

The only games I can think of off the top of my head where the sex actually had an impact on the story line would be the excellent Baldurs Gate and Phantasmagoria 2 - and in BG2 you had NOTHING of the graphical sort - you could only figure out that dirty dancing had taken place by reading about it. And that was fine since the BG series was an hybrid between the old text RPGs and slashers. In Phantasmagoria 2 (quite excellent game btw) you had real people and some actual real boobs(!) showing, but not much more, but the scene was an integral part of the story you played.

However, as good as that is, being fuel for the story, I don't agree that it should be used solely for that purpose. Sometimes one might just want a reward for something, like a cutscene. Since I can't make money from playing computer games or even get a box of chocolates, I have to settle for those cutscenes.

[Homebound]

Menalaos1971 wrote...



The point is that some limited nudity and sexuality in a Rated M game designed for adult gamers is not unacceptable. So why take it out?

Bioware talked about this a LONG time ago. They said that just because they can, doesnt mean they will, or should.

Its like if they randomly made it rain Penises on illium for no coherent reason. It just doenst make sense!

[asaiasai]

Thanks Op for making another post concerning Sex and Nudity in a game, any time someone shows some fortitude to make one of these posts i will alway reply with a resounding, Yes.



Nudity tastefully done does not break the game neither does lack of it as well. In a mature rated title nudity is like icing on a doughnut, can't hurt. I do not think it should be avaliable in the standard game sold at Wal-mart or Best Buy, i think it would be something best handled by a DLC type offering. Those of us that want to PAY extra for the icing can and those who do not, do not, everybody is happy. I am the type of person that will pay extra for a game if i can get an uncensored version or opens up more adult content, and do not care who knows it. To the get laid crowd, first off i am quite sure i am twice as old as most of you are and accordingly i have had probably 3 times as much sex as any of you have had, so your childish attempt to shame into silence is epic fail.



If i can blow a targets head off with a well placed rifle round, and get some boobie action afterwards i am all for it. If i can lop off an offending individuals head in a gout of blood and see a firm rounded ass later i am all for it. If in order to get this content i have to pay extra in the form of DLC i am all for it.



The truth is the developers are already designing some video segments concerning the relationship, since you are already there just add a bit more while you are there it can not cost that much more, and if it does i will help allay any financial hardship by purchasing a copy of it. I have been gaming for over 25 years and i have not been able to find, a quality game with quality mature content.



I just purchased Oblivion because thier mod community was able to provide free mind you, mature content for the game. Oblivion is a good game, it plays well, has a good story and i can get mature content as well, what is there not to like. The avaliability of mature content is slowly being added to the criteria i use to decide to purchase a game. The Witcher was another example where for extra cost i had to purchase an import (European) version of the game to avoid unnecessary censorship. The standard not the collectors edition of the game cost me 75 dollars delivered. I could have purchased the censored version of the game for 50 dollars but why bother? EA has been known to include nudity in at least one title i bought from them, Godfather 2 where the girls in both brothels were topless. I own DAO and thanks to a released toolset and a nice group of dedicated modders they have added that little extra i was looking for in an already great game, does the mature content make the game any more pleasing to play i think so.



My point is that if you want more mature content in a game i am with you, i am also with the not in my game crowd as well. How can i be on both side is explained in that i think the content should be made and sold as a DLC this way everybody is happy. How far should Bioware go with the mature content? I think Bioware should go as far with it as they are comfortable, and i will go with them as far as they go.



To the not in my game crowd you really need to just go away now and let us have our discussion. I know you feel entitled to weigh in but this discussion really does not pertain to you in any way, because i think that most of us pro mature content have no intention of forcing this down your throats. Quite the contrary all we want to do is show to the company a potential untapped revenue stream for a product and i am quite sure that most if not all of us would not hesitate to pay extra for this content, as such this renders any and all of your objections moot.



Asai

[tenshi_no_hone]

why would you buy oblivion for its mature content? I'm not saying it's a detriment to the game, but I don't see how it adds anything. I don't see why mature content in the Witcher would add 25 bucks of value to a game either.

Surely, a game is there to entertain so mature content doesn't necessarily detract from that, but why does it NEED to be added to make the experience more complete?

If we're talking about skin lacking in romance cutscenes doesn't it bother you more that you can't see Tali's face than Miranda's boobs?

[Your Synthetic Superior]

Grizzly46 wrote...

+1. I found it very refreshing to have someone to just chat with, with about anything, even after her loyalty mission, and I would have loved having more of that with everybody - Jack sharing courtroom stories, Grunt finding out how to use a knife and fork, playing Battleship with Thane, hell ANYTHING!

And I agree with that camera angle thing as well - it was waay too obvious she was meant to be eye candy and a femme fatale for the majority of the players (ie, the guys). I don't mind candy, but I want to taste some sometimes as well, not just look at it... In ME2, I got two jelly bears and then the shop closed...

I find that when dealing with people in Mass Effect, I drift back into nostalgia over the Baldurs Gate games, especially BG2, whereas the party also had intearctions, opinions and a life without the protagonist, even if he had dropped them as LI's. This is one area that could most definately be improved.

Something that would be nice for the romances, if you choose one, is to not have to wait til before the last mass relay for the sex scene (if there has to be one) and to continue through the game in a relationship. There should have been something on Illium with Liara or you should have taken Ashley/Kaidan back to the Normandy for a short while. Not necessarily for sex seeing as it's been 2 years, but to have a tender moment at least. Something to at least confirm that their is still something there. The vibe I got was that those romances were over with.

[ZMJ10]

Yea IDK you say your mature but if not being able to see sex/nudity from a animated character in a video game gets you angry then dude you've got problems get yourself a women.

[Marcin K]

we should all cool off, before some mod comes over and locks thread as was threatened:

Stanley Woo wrote...

Let's take the name-calling and insults out of the discussion, please. Since my original comments are coming around again (even after I explained and clarified my meaning in a separate thread a couple weeks ago), methinks people are just arguing in circles and it may soon be time to reboot the discussion. We'll see...

Modifié par Marcin R, 21 février 2010 - 03:39 .

[leeboi2]

The Sabotuer or whatever its called has boobs and thats an EA game so you can't really blame EA for it, That was DLC though so i guess if you didnt want it you didnt have to get it. Should do the same with ME

Modifié par leeboi2, 21 février 2010 - 05:08 .

[Naughty Bear]

Someone mentioned boobs in this specific thread. Who was it? It attracted my attention.

[tenshi_no_hone]

The devs don't want to add nudity. Mod it or don't buy it, just don't expect Bioware to add something to their game that they don't want just for the titillation of some of their audience.

The game could have featured nudity without being attacked publicly, particularly after the embarrassment Fox news sufferred the last time. ME2 doesn't lack nudity to avoid controversy or because the devs and writers are scared - they simply don't want to add it!

[Ryzaki]

tenshi_no_hone wrote...

The devs don't want to add nudity. Mod it or don't buy it, just don't expect Bioware to add something to their game that they don't want just for the titillation of some of their audience.
The game could have featured nudity without being attacked publicly, particularly after the embarrassment Fox news sufferred the last time. ME2 doesn't lack nudity to avoid controversy or because the devs and writers are scared - they simply don't want to add it!

It is far too late for that. Between the strippers, Miranda and Samara's ridculous outfits and Jack there's all the titillation any pubscent boy would want in this game. >_> 

What we're asking for is some adult and actual *mature*, not this 16 year old boy wanting to drool over hott girl nonsense, nudity.