954 réponses à ce sujet

[Impresario]

Really, it's a bit disingenuous to claim that these purported aesthetic decisions are dictated within a vacuum, when Bioware admittedly relys on focus testing to "identify and define the wants and needs" of their target market." That begs the question, who do they consider to be their target market? For a game such as this they curry favor from adults but also seem to want the game to be a safe harbor for young teens (not withstandng the M rating). That's called having your cake and eating it too. It's a sensible strategy from a marketing POV but consequently adult gamers are subjected to content that comes off as cartoonish. You're left groaning more than grinning.

[Mev186]

Stanley Woo wrote...

It's kinda funny that this topic keeps coming up over and over again. People who claim to be old enough and mature enough to handle sex and nudity in a game seem to believe that any lack of sex and nudity in the game is a sign of self-censorship. They generally don't believe that a game can be called "mature" without explicit sex and/or nudity.

Let me tell you, folks, that as a developer full of mature individuals, we are also free to not have explicit sex and/or nudity in our games, no matter what you, Fox News, the government, or Bunky the Wonder Clown has to say about it. We have never considered it a "problem," it is simply a choice we have made and we have every right to make that choice.

How dare Stanley insult Bunky the Wonder Clown! This is the last straw! I think I will have to make a thread to whine about this!

/sarcasm

[MGIII]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

I don't really think nudity is needed in the game. If you really want nudity I'm sure you can google some porn video and see all the XXX sex you want.

That's not the point. We don't need to see it, but if you're given the option to romance a character, it feels fake and disingenuous when they're in clothes and...awkwardly animated. 

The first game's scenes were classy and emotional. They were superior. ME2's were downgrades.

[CRISIS1717]

Darht Jayder wrote...

Orogenic wrote...

Darht Jayder wrote...


I don't see how immersion is lost or even really affected one way or the other.  DA:O's scenes....laughable but didn't break immersion.  As to whether the scenes were more artistically directed in ME1 than ME2.....maybe but so what?  Other than it simply being a quality thing, nudity is unnecessary to convey a sense of romanticism.

Well for one thing, the scenes "cuddling" on the bed fully clothed look just plain silly.  Hell, why not have them cuddling in full body armor while you're at it?

Agreed but doesn't break immersion.  And still clothed cuddling...although it may look silly in the game can still and does convey ramontic feelings.

We can't have body armour cuddling because its obviously too racey for Mass Effects mature theme.

[Parallax Demon]

Let's face it people; FOX and the goverment of Maylasia won. Bioware is sensoring itself. From a marketing point of view they made the right choice. From the artistic point of view they are selling their souls just to make more money. Welcome to the real world

Modifié par Parallax Demon, 05 février 2010 - 09:30 .

[gunnerkite1985]

The Demonologist wrote...

I care abot romances, sure. They're a nice addition.

In all honesty though, why does it matter whether Sheppard and friend gets naked or not? It'd be a tad different if the scenes were styled as they were in DA:O, but I do believe what we see in this game implies that you further undress after the fade to black. Use your imagination folks, that, or fanfic.

If it were comical like in DA:O I suppose I'd object, but objecting about how it was handled this time around seems to come from... well, a different place.

You make a good point. I think to leave romance/sex scenes out of the game completely would have been a mistake, they add needed emotional attachment to the charecters. I'm sure there are people that like the scenes they have done in ME2, but for me the scenes in ME1, esspecially liara's, were more emotional, more intimate. I'm not asking for, nor would want, graphic sex scenes in a game, but emotional love scenes where and when appropriate is almost expected from bioware now. They set the bar high in ME1 and I can't think that the only reason they didn't do similar scenes in ME2 was because they didn't think it was needed.

[Chris_Really_Rocks]

Parallax Demon wrote...

Let's face it people; FOX and the goverment of Maylasia won. Bioware is sensoring itself. From a marketing point of view they made the right choice. From the artistic point of view they are selling their souls just to make more money. Welcome to the real world

Explain Dragon Age sex, which happened after the Fox News debacle -- its sex was rather graphic and included male on male homosexual lovemaking-- if Bioware was bowing to Fox, the DA:O scenes would have been way less graphic.

[Menalaos1971]

Stanley Woo,



You took a step into the Mature subject matter realm that no other game did as seriously or as well when you added the relationships in the first Mass Effect. We adult gamers appreciated the addition and loved the way it was handled. I'm glad to hear that you didn't take Fox News' outrageous idiocy seriously.



But why have you "gone backwards" in Dragon Age and in Mass Effect 2? I'm not asking for a Hot Coffee mission. I'm asking for you to continue the trend of having adult relationships tastefully presented as you did in the first Mass Effect.



And for the children posting about porn and getting laid, grow up.

[Menalaos1971]

Chris_Really_Rocks wrote...

Explain Dragon Age sex, which happened after the Fox News debacle -- its sex was rather graphic and included male on male homosexual lovemaking-- if Bioware was bowing to Fox, the DA:O scenes would have been way less graphic.

You're kidding, right?  Those embarassingly silly bra and panty scenes were graphic?

[Niorcs]

Eh, I think it would be awkward to have the same kind of 'sweet' love scenes that ME1 had and then apply them to Miranda or Jack. It just doesn't seem in character when you're on a suicide mission to just turn all sweet and do the ME1 scenes again. Different atmosphere, different situation.

[Kavva]

For me all the scenes were tastly done and i dont think sex and nudity were needed, only complain that they should last longer then couple of seconds

[Kalfear]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I can understand how it must seem to players who really, really, really want to see HBO- and Showtime-like sex and nudity in our stories, but that's not what makes our games great, and ironically, insisting on sex and nudity tends to make people look immature. Just because you'd like to see somehing--anything--doesn't mean that we will do it or agree with your reasons to include/not include it.

and to both sides of the argument, let's please keep the insults out of the discussion. Thank you.

Stanley (not going to read all the pages and get insulted by kids to young to take topic serious) I think you missed the point of these discussions.

I post alot about nudity but I also admit that its not needed. What I (and many many others) want is a adult feel to the lovew scenes. Mass Effect 1 dod this with out having nudity and we openly saluted and cheered Bioware for it as the scenes were engrossing and immersive.

But then came DA:O and ME2, clearly taking steps baclkwards and dumbing down the same immersion we cheered you about!

No one is saying nudity is required, nudity is but one way to acheive what we asking for. Look at it for our stand point, how effective would Jack have been if instead of her game chat were heard "gosh, darn, golly gee wiz" because thats the exact same thing you done to romances by giving characters granny panties and fade to black cut scenes.

Nudity is not the only answer but its still a option thats far better then what were currently being given!

And besides, in a world thats just as crass and vulgar as any HBO show, why shouldnt we expect HBO love scenes as well when the game has all the other elements? Why is this ONE aspect to much to ask? You say its not FOX and the backlash, fine, what is it then? 

Why is Mass Effect 2 basically Deadwood in space in all areas but the love scenes? Then its suddenly mister Rogers Neighborhood. The double standard doesnt make sence and simply isnt reasonable!

so from one mature adult to anouther, why the double standard? Why the inconsistancy? If its not FOX and soccer moms, then what is the cause cause it sure doesnt make any sence to me I gotta say.

[tryceo]

Yep.. it seems parents are more worried about boobs than alcohol, drugs, profanity, guns, blood, vilence, and Osama bin Laden. Well at least our kids won't have sex.

[Impresario]

This trend of appealing to a quasi-juvenile target market (at least to me) seems apparent whenever Shepard's on the prowl. Granted, I haven't finished the game and explored all the romance options but his pick-up lines seem like something Beavis and Butthead would say. Maybe,it's just me but there's a distinct lack of nuance or subtlety in his approach.

[WilliamShatner]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I can understand how it must seem to players who really, really, really want to see HBO- and Showtime-like sex and nudity in our stories, but that's not what makes our games great, and ironically, insisting on sex and nudity tends to make people look immature. Just because you'd like to see somehing--anything--doesn't mean that we will do it or agree with your reasons to include/not include it.

and to both sides of the argument, let's please keep the insults out of the discussion. Thank you.

So Mr. Woo you consider the sex scene in the original game as HBO/Showtime type sex?

People aren't asking for softcore porn, they're asking for tastfully done love scenes like in the one in the original game... and romance  options for female Shepard that aren't rubbish.

[Menalaos1971]

tryceo wrote...

Yep.. it seems parents are more worried about boobs than alcohol, drugs, profanity, guns, blood, vilence, and Osama bin Laden. Well at least our kids won't have sex.

What do parents have to do with this?  This is a Rated M game.  If you're old enough to play it you don't need anyone's permission.

But that's the real point isn't it?  Its not that Bioware doesn't want to present these relationships realistically.  Its that they don't want to hurt the sales of their Rated M game to children not old enough to play it.  If the only questionable material is shooting space robots then most parents won't care if little Billy plays, but put in adult sexual relationships and then mommy might think twice.

[Menalaos1971]

Niorcs wrote...

Eh, I think it would be awkward to have the same kind of 'sweet' love scenes that ME1 had and then apply them to Miranda or Jack. It just doesn't seem in character when you're on a suicide mission to just turn all sweet and do the ME1 scenes again. Different atmosphere, different situation.

Bioware is great at portraying characters in a realistic manner.  They could easily program different scenes for different characters.  Honestly I think the scene for the Renegade Shepard should be more animalistic than a Paragon Shepard's anyway.

[Niorcs]

Menalaos1971 wrote...

Niorcs wrote...

Eh, I think it would be awkward to have the same kind of 'sweet' love scenes that ME1 had and then apply them to Miranda or Jack. It just doesn't seem in character when you're on a suicide mission to just turn all sweet and do the ME1 scenes again. Different atmosphere, different situation.

Bioware is great at portraying characters in a realistic manner.  They could easily program different scenes for different characters.  Honestly I think the scene for the Renegade Shepard should be more animalistic than a Paragon Shepard's anyway.

This, yes. I just think that it's up to BioWare if they want to or not to do any nudity. I mean, either way, the US market would censor it anyway- look at Indigo Prophesy (nudity and sex cut out of North American versions) and the upcoming Heavy Rain (nudity cut out in NA versions).

[Menalaos1971]

Niorcs wrote...

Menalaos1971 wrote...

Niorcs wrote...

Eh, I think it would be awkward to have the same kind of 'sweet' love scenes that ME1 had and then apply them to Miranda or Jack. It just doesn't seem in character when you're on a suicide mission to just turn all sweet and do the ME1 scenes again. Different atmosphere, different situation.

Bioware is great at portraying characters in a realistic manner.  They could easily program different scenes for different characters.  Honestly I think the scene for the Renegade Shepard should be more animalistic than a Paragon Shepard's anyway.

This, yes. I just think that it's up to BioWare if they want to or not to do any nudity. I mean, either way, the US market would censor it anyway- look at Indigo Prophesy (nudity and sex cut out of North American versions) and the upcoming Heavy Rain (nudity cut out in NA versions).

First, there doesn't have to be any nudity.  ME didn't really have any.  The side of a breast, the top of a butt cheek.  That's not "nudity".  It is hinted at very well, though.

Second, Grand Theft Auto 4 had full frontal nudity (male) and fairly graphic sex.  The Saboteur developer released a few Nude DLC on XBox Live that removed the pasties and coverings from the women's breasts in the brothels.  Nudity isn't "forbidden".

But, again, it doesn't have to be "graphic" and it doesn't have to be "nudity".  What Bioware did in the first Mass Effect was perfect.

[Stonetwister]

I don't think nudity is really necessary at all in a video game. If the game is rated M then the developers MAY choose to put it in there. They MAY choose to push the envelope and make their games more and more mature each time, or they may just choose to present it the way they judge to be best on a case by case basis. Either way, I think this conversation is a little ridiculous, since a few players, or in this case one player, can't simply demand more nudity and the developers have to listen. They will do what they think is best.
Personally, I could take or leave the nudity, as long as the romances and character interactions continue to be a major part of the game.

Modifié par Stonetwister, 05 février 2010 - 10:18 .

[YakoHako]

 I think romantic is much better than tasteless.