954 réponses à ce sujet

[The Demonologist]

It's not so much that I think to add it -lessens- the product, I just... don't necessarily see where it -adds.-



If I remember right, I'd treat it less so like 20% versus 80% on a 'scale' and more like two different approaches.



One is where the sex is tastefully implied.



The other is where the sex is tastefully shown.



I just don't really see where one is ultimately inferior to the other.

[full_metal_zombie]

Personally, I don't care one way or the other. However, I recently concluded the romance story with Jack, and at the end of the scene, it shows them cuddling. Fully clothed. For the sake of this conversation, as I said I don't care either way. Nude or not nude, it's not going to effect how much I enjoy the game. But who the hell gets dressed after the deed to cuddle? In full Cerberus officer uniform? Seriously. Could've shown the characters under a blanket for all I care. But that just seemed like censorship to the point of ridiculousness.

I think if you're going to put sexual situations into your games, Bioware, and decide to censor everything out, you could at least make it believable while still keeping it tasteful.

Modifié par cyberwaste13, 06 février 2010 - 01:08 .

[gneissguy2003]

The Demonologist wrote...

It's not so much that I think to add it -lessens- the product, I just... don't necessarily see where it -adds.-

If I remember right, I'd treat it less so like 20% versus 80% on a 'scale' and more like two different approaches.

One is where the sex is tastefully implied.

The other is where the sex is tastefully shown.

I just don't really see where one is ultimately inferior to the other.

I completely agree with you, Demonologist. And like I said, I believe the OP and the people who agree with him are only expressing a disappointment because they feel, as I said, that Bioware made the choice to go one way with the first game and then take several steps backward with this second game.  There isn't anything wrong with that, and I don't think a reasonable person would say otherwise. The conflict going on here isn't with people such as you because you are entirely fine with your opinion. The issue is becoming more that those who feel like the OP does are now being framed as being "immature" for wanting Bioware to keep a standard similar to what they displayed in the first ME.

[Bigeyez]

neftones wrote...

wow.  Pigeonholing this into whether there should be ****** or not is as bad as anything Fox News would spew out.  Sure, there are a few horny 14 year olds dying to see some sexy pixels, but that is not what this debate is about and it's ignorant to suggest otherwise. 

If a sex scene doesn't fit into Mass Effect, a game that spends a significant amount of time on pursuing a sexual relationship with other characters, where the hell does it fit?  What are you even saying?  No one's expecting a money shot.  You, and others, seem to be stuck on this aburd idea that there is a call for pornography in ME.  Think about this for more than 5 seconds and you might see otherwise.  

Right there is where I think you're wrong and why I think nudity doesn't fit into Mass Effect. Bioware puts a lot of effort into it's romances in order to make sure they AREN'T just about sex. The bonds between your romances are supposed to go deeper then just sex. Sure do you end up having sex? Yes, but thats really a minor detail next to what the real romance is supposed to be, ie, a real emotional engagement between the two characters. Sex in Mass Effect would be pointless were it not for the relationship that preceeds it. If Bioware's intent on this couldn't be any more clear just look at Jack. The game actually punishes you for simply wanting sex and not pursueing the deeper relationship thats there.

My whole point is that a graphic sex scene in Mass Effect doesn't make sense, because the sex itself is NOT the point of the romance.

Again can sex work in videogames like it does in other forms of media/entertainment? Yes it can, I just don't think it fits Mass Effect.

[neftones]

Bigeyez wrote...

neftones wrote...

wow.  Pigeonholing this into whether there should be ****** or not is as bad as anything Fox News would spew out.  Sure, there are a few horny 14 year olds dying to see some sexy pixels, but that is not what this debate is about and it's ignorant to suggest otherwise. 

If a sex scene doesn't fit into Mass Effect, a game that spends a significant amount of time on pursuing a sexual relationship with other characters, where the hell does it fit?  What are you even saying?  No one's expecting a money shot.  You, and others, seem to be stuck on this aburd idea that there is a call for pornography in ME.  Think about this for more than 5 seconds and you might see otherwise.  

Right there is where I think you're wrong and why I think nudity doesn't fit into Mass Effect. Bioware puts a lot of effort into it's romances in order to make sure they AREN'T just about sex. The bonds between your romances are supposed to go deeper then just sex. Sure do you end up having sex? Yes, but thats really a minor detail next to what the real romance is supposed to be, ie, a real emotional engagement between the two characters. Sex in Mass Effect would be pointless were it not for the relationship that preceeds it. If Bioware's intent on this couldn't be any more clear just look at Jack. The game actually punishes you for simply wanting sex and not pursueing the deeper relationship thats there.

My whole point is that a graphic sex scene in Mass Effect doesn't make sense, because the sex itself is NOT the point of the romance.

Again can sex work in videogames like it does in other forms of media/entertainment? Yes it can, I just don't think it fits Mass Effect.

What is the result of the romance subplot in both games?  What is your reward, as a gamer?   It's not getting married, it's not going out for a picnic or moving in together.  The romance subplot is completed when you have sex with the LI.  Yes, it is absolutely about connecting with the LI and forming a serious relationship, but the focus for the climax (no pun intended) of the game mechanic is on the sex.  Look at the endgame interactions with your LI.  Are they talking?  Are they going out to eat?  No, they are laying in bed, getting a lapdance, etc.  Sex is very clearly the center of these relationships.  Saying otherwise is ignoring the game itself.  Again, no one's looking for porn (well, maybe "no one" is a stretch).  What we're looking for is progress in the treatment of love and sex in video games.  That is not what we are seeing from Bioware, and it's a shame.  

[Bigeyez]

gneissguy2003 wrote...

snip because it's long

Where did I say I'm against any type of sex in videogames? I've already said why I don't think a graphic sex scene would make sense for Mass Effect (twice) so I won't repeat the same thing again.

Secondly where did I say you guys were talking about a full on hardcore scene? Of course I know you guys aren't talking about that, but you ARE talking about more then what was in ME 1. I don't really equate side boob to nudity so unless your definition of nudity is really tame you are asking for more then what was in the original game.

I don't find sex wrong. I'm not offended by nudity. I don't get all frightened, because Janet Jackson flash some nipple at the Super Bowl. I just don't think nudity fits Mass Effect. The scenes in both games did what needed to be done and are, in my humble opinion, perfectly fitting for the story they were in.

[bulkhead]

Stanley Woo wrote...
... or Bunky the Wonder Clown has to say about it.  ...

i lol'ed:lol:

[gneissguy2003]

Bigeyez wrote...

neftones wrote...

wow.  Pigeonholing this into whether there should be ****** or not is as bad as anything Fox News would spew out.  Sure, there are a few horny 14 year olds dying to see some sexy pixels, but that is not what this debate is about and it's ignorant to suggest otherwise. 

If a sex scene doesn't fit into Mass Effect, a game that spends a significant amount of time on pursuing a sexual relationship with other characters, where the hell does it fit?  What are you even saying?  No one's expecting a money shot.  You, and others, seem to be stuck on this aburd idea that there is a call for pornography in ME.  Think about this for more than 5 seconds and you might see otherwise.  

Right there is where I think you're wrong and why I think nudity doesn't fit into Mass Effect. Bioware puts a lot of effort into it's romances in order to make sure they AREN'T just about sex. The bonds between your romances are supposed to go deeper then just sex. Sure do you end up having sex? Yes, but thats really a minor detail next to what the real romance is supposed to be, ie, a real emotional engagement between the two characters. Sex in Mass Effect would be pointless were it not for the relationship that preceeds it. If Bioware's intent on this couldn't be any more clear just look at Jack. The game actually punishes you for simply wanting sex and not pursueing the deeper relationship thats there.

My whole point is that a graphic sex scene in Mass Effect doesn't make sense, because the sex itself is NOT the point of the romance.

Again can sex work in videogames like it does in other forms of media/entertainment? Yes it can, I just don't think it fits Mass Effect.

And yet, in one of the preview trailers for Subject Zero/Jack, we hear her openly state "If this is just about sex, maybe you should just f***ing say so."  Also, in the Sci vs. Fi show that aired a few weeks back, there's a clip where a male Shepard says to Miranda, "Who said anything about love? I'm just trying to get you into bed."

So, no, it's NOT all about the emotions and relationship leading up to the sex because Bioware has given you the choice to persue encounters with these characters that does NOT involve romance or deep emotion. 

[Bootsykk]

All I'm going to say is that the act itself is not that intimate. It's in the foreplay, dude.

[Bigeyez]

neftones wrote...

snip

If thats all you see from these relationships then lets just agree to disagree, because I do not see them in that way at all. Judging from all the dev comments and interviews they to do not see their romances as purely about getting laid either.

[corebit]

neftones wrote...

Bigeyez wrote...

neftones wrote...

wow.  Pigeonholing this into whether there should be ****** or not is as bad as anything Fox News would spew out.  Sure, there are a few horny 14 year olds dying to see some sexy pixels, but that is not what this debate is about and it's ignorant to suggest otherwise. 

If a sex scene doesn't fit into Mass Effect, a game that spends a significant amount of time on pursuing a sexual relationship with other characters, where the hell does it fit?  What are you even saying?  No one's expecting a money shot.  You, and others, seem to be stuck on this aburd idea that there is a call for pornography in ME.  Think about this for more than 5 seconds and you might see otherwise.  

Right there is where I think you're wrong and why I think nudity doesn't fit into Mass Effect. Bioware puts a lot of effort into it's romances in order to make sure they AREN'T just about sex. The bonds between your romances are supposed to go deeper then just sex. Sure do you end up having sex? Yes, but thats really a minor detail next to what the real romance is supposed to be, ie, a real emotional engagement between the two characters. Sex in Mass Effect would be pointless were it not for the relationship that preceeds it. If Bioware's intent on this couldn't be any more clear just look at Jack. The game actually punishes you for simply wanting sex and not pursueing the deeper relationship thats there.

My whole point is that a graphic sex scene in Mass Effect doesn't make sense, because the sex itself is NOT the point of the romance.

Again can sex work in videogames like it does in other forms of media/entertainment? Yes it can, I just don't think it fits Mass Effect.

What is the result of the romance subplot in both games?  What is your reward, as a gamer?   It's not getting married, it's not going out for a picnic or moving in together.  The romance subplot is completed when you have sex with the LI.  Yes, it is absolutely about connecting with the LI and forming a serious relationship, but the focus for the climax (no pun intended) of the game mechanic is on the sex.  Look at the endgame interactions with your LI.  Are they talking?  Are they going out to eat?  No, they are laying in bed, getting a lapdance, etc.  Sex is very clearly the center of these relationships.  Saying otherwise is ignoring the game itself.  Again, no one's looking for porn (well, maybe "no one" is a stretch).  What we're looking for is progress in the treatment of love and sex in video games.  That is not what we are seeing from Bioware, and it's a shame.  

Thinking the "reward" is sex is YOUR OPINION. Other people who disagree with you say the "reward" is developing a relationship with that character and sex is only a minor point. The Bioware developers seem to agree with the second group, because all the sex scenes so far in their games are mostly IMPLIED and simply showing a little skin here and there.

[The Demonologist]

gneissguy2003 wrote...

The Demonologist wrote...

It's not so much that I think to add it -lessens- the product, I just... don't necessarily see where it -adds.-

If I remember right, I'd treat it less so like 20% versus 80% on a 'scale' and more like two different approaches.

One is where the sex is tastefully implied.

The other is where the sex is tastefully shown.

I just don't really see where one is ultimately inferior to the other.

I completely agree with you, Demonologist. And like I said, I believe the OP and the people who agree with him are only expressing a disappointment because they feel, as I said, that Bioware made the choice to go one way with the first game and then take several steps backward with this second game.  There isn't anything wrong with that, and I don't think a reasonable person would say otherwise. The conflict going on here isn't with people such as you because you are entirely fine with your opinion. The issue is becoming more that those who feel like the OP does are now being framed as being "immature" for wanting Bioware to keep a standard similar to what they displayed in the first ME.

Er, not to nitpick, but you don't entirely agree with me. It's this part.

" Bioware made the choice to go one way with the first game and then take several steps backward with this second game"

I did not call it deficient. I called it different.

I -don't- believe they took steps backwards. Rather, instead of going left, they went right. I've no bias towards one direction or another. They're just different manners to get to the same destination. To call one 'lesser' than the other is where I take issue.

If they'd gone DA:O in their direction, I'd certainly call it lesser, but as it stands, it seems fine to me, whether they choose to stick with ME2's way or ME1's way. THAT was a step back.

And to address what's said above, should we append the 'sexual relationships' to a word more appropriate, like 'emotional relationships?'  While it may seem like semantics, whatever the player's intent, the dialogue appears quite clearly to indicate that the relationships are expressions of emotional attraction, with a wee bit o' the physical mixed in. (See: dashing commander. : )

Oh, and for those that would, there is no political commentary in that. Quiet, you!

Bigeyez and Jun: Indeed. 

Modifié par The Demonologist, 06 février 2010 - 01:29 .

[gneissguy2003]

corebit wrote...

neftones wrote...

Bigeyez wrote...

neftones wrote...

wow.  Pigeonholing this into whether there should be ****** or not is as bad as anything Fox News would spew out.  Sure, there are a few horny 14 year olds dying to see some sexy pixels, but that is not what this debate is about and it's ignorant to suggest otherwise. 

If a sex scene doesn't fit into Mass Effect, a game that spends a significant amount of time on pursuing a sexual relationship with other characters, where the hell does it fit?  What are you even saying?  No one's expecting a money shot.  You, and others, seem to be stuck on this aburd idea that there is a call for pornography in ME.  Think about this for more than 5 seconds and you might see otherwise.  

Right there is where I think you're wrong and why I think nudity doesn't fit into Mass Effect. Bioware puts a lot of effort into it's romances in order to make sure they AREN'T just about sex. The bonds between your romances are supposed to go deeper then just sex. Sure do you end up having sex? Yes, but thats really a minor detail next to what the real romance is supposed to be, ie, a real emotional engagement between the two characters. Sex in Mass Effect would be pointless were it not for the relationship that preceeds it. If Bioware's intent on this couldn't be any more clear just look at Jack. The game actually punishes you for simply wanting sex and not pursueing the deeper relationship thats there.

My whole point is that a graphic sex scene in Mass Effect doesn't make sense, because the sex itself is NOT the point of the romance.

Again can sex work in videogames like it does in other forms of media/entertainment? Yes it can, I just don't think it fits Mass Effect.

What is the result of the romance subplot in both games?  What is your reward, as a gamer?   It's not getting married, it's not going out for a picnic or moving in together.  The romance subplot is completed when you have sex with the LI.  Yes, it is absolutely about connecting with the LI and forming a serious relationship, but the focus for the climax (no pun intended) of the game mechanic is on the sex.  Look at the endgame interactions with your LI.  Are they talking?  Are they going out to eat?  No, they are laying in bed, getting a lapdance, etc.  Sex is very clearly the center of these relationships.  Saying otherwise is ignoring the game itself.  Again, no one's looking for porn (well, maybe "no one" is a stretch).  What we're looking for is progress in the treatment of love and sex in video games.  That is not what we are seeing from Bioware, and it's a shame.  

Thinking the "reward" is sex is YOUR OPINION. Other people who disagree with you say the "reward" is developing a relationship with that character and sex is only a minor point. The Bioware developers seem to agree with the second group, because all the sex scenes so far in their games are mostly IMPLIED and simply showing a little skin here and there.

And yet this wasn't the case with ME1. So why the sudden change? Why the departure from something that, while granted was more suggestive in nature, was nonetheless tame and still only implied the act? That's what some of us want to know?

[neftones]

Bigeyez wrote...

neftones wrote...

snip

If thats all you see from these relationships then lets just agree to disagree, because I do not see them in that way at all. Judging from all the dev comments and interviews they to do not see their romances as purely about getting laid either.

What part of "Yes, it is absolutely about connecting with the LI and forming a
serious relationship, but the focus for the climax (no pun intended) of
the game mechanic is on the sex. " is throwing you off guy?  

[The Demonologist]

Mayhaps they got 'deeper' to put it in (heheh) 'shallow' terms.

[Heebejeebes]

I dont care about the nudity, im just mad I didn't get to see Tali's face. Whole reason I started the romance was to get a glimpse of what a Quarian looks like... sigh... guess they are saving that for Mass Effect 3

[Bigeyez]

gneissguy2003 wrote...

And yet, in one of the preview trailers for Subject Zero/Jack, we hear her openly state "If this is just about sex, maybe you should just f***ing say so."  Also, in the Sci vs. Fi show that aired a few weeks back, there's a clip where a male Shepard says to Miranda, "Who said anything about love? I'm just trying to get you into bed."

So, no, it's NOT all about the emotions and relationship leading up to the sex because Bioware has given you the choice to persue encounters with these characters that does NOT involve romance or deep emotion. 

The Miranda comment completely comes across as a joke by Shepard in the game...She even laughs to it and jokingly calls him an ass. It's also a comment made literally right before the two do have sex. All the dialogue in the game prior to that shows Shepard and Miranda building an emotional connection which yes does lead to sex and yes does lead to Shepard making a little joke about sex. Just because he does that thoughd oesn't mean their relationship is purely sexual. I don't know about other people, but i know I joke around about sex with whoever I'm with from time to time. Does that mean our relationship is only about sex? Of course not.

I already adressed the Jack comment in the post you quoted. Jack, as a character, is someone who is used to people using her and abusing her. She says that to Shepard, because she fully expects him to be the same as everyone else she has come across. If you do tell her that all you want is sex, she gives it to you, then effectively shuts you out for the rest of the game, because you proved to her that you are no different from everyone else. (In other words thats the game punishing you). If you reject that initial comment from her you start the real romance with her and eventually convince her that you really do care for her.

So yes, It's more then just sex in these romances.

[neftones]

corebit wrote...

Thinking the "reward" is sex is YOUR OPINION. Other people who disagree with you say the "reward" is developing a relationship with that character and sex is only a minor point. The Bioware developers seem to agree with the second group, because all the sex scenes so far in their games are mostly IMPLIED and simply showing a little skin here and there.

What relationship do you have with the LIs after you have sex with them?  In either game?  Is there anything at all other than physical interaction in ME2?  No.  There isn't even that in ME1.  The endgame of the romance subplot - the "mission complete" reward, in other words - is sex.  This is a fact, it is not a matter of opinion. 

[corebit]

gneissguy2003 wrote...

corebit wrote...

neftones wrote...

Bigeyez wrote...

neftones wrote...

wow.  Pigeonholing this into whether there should be ****** or not is as bad as anything Fox News would spew out.  Sure, there are a few horny 14 year olds dying to see some sexy pixels, but that is not what this debate is about and it's ignorant to suggest otherwise. 

If a sex scene doesn't fit into Mass Effect, a game that spends a significant amount of time on pursuing a sexual relationship with other characters, where the hell does it fit?  What are you even saying?  No one's expecting a money shot.  You, and others, seem to be stuck on this aburd idea that there is a call for pornography in ME.  Think about this for more than 5 seconds and you might see otherwise.  

Right there is where I think you're wrong and why I think nudity doesn't fit into Mass Effect. Bioware puts a lot of effort into it's romances in order to make sure they AREN'T just about sex. The bonds between your romances are supposed to go deeper then just sex. Sure do you end up having sex? Yes, but thats really a minor detail next to what the real romance is supposed to be, ie, a real emotional engagement between the two characters. Sex in Mass Effect would be pointless were it not for the relationship that preceeds it. If Bioware's intent on this couldn't be any more clear just look at Jack. The game actually punishes you for simply wanting sex and not pursueing the deeper relationship thats there.

My whole point is that a graphic sex scene in Mass Effect doesn't make sense, because the sex itself is NOT the point of the romance.

Again can sex work in videogames like it does in other forms of media/entertainment? Yes it can, I just don't think it fits Mass Effect.

What is the result of the romance subplot in both games?  What is your reward, as a gamer?   It's not getting married, it's not going out for a picnic or moving in together.  The romance subplot is completed when you have sex with the LI.  Yes, it is absolutely about connecting with the LI and forming a serious relationship, but the focus for the climax (no pun intended) of the game mechanic is on the sex.  Look at the endgame interactions with your LI.  Are they talking?  Are they going out to eat?  No, they are laying in bed, getting a lapdance, etc.  Sex is very clearly the center of these relationships.  Saying otherwise is ignoring the game itself.  Again, no one's looking for porn (well, maybe "no one" is a stretch).  What we're looking for is progress in the treatment of love and sex in video games.  That is not what we are seeing from Bioware, and it's a shame.  

Thinking the "reward" is sex is YOUR OPINION. Other people who disagree with you say the "reward" is developing a relationship with that character and sex is only a minor point. The Bioware developers seem to agree with the second group, because all the sex scenes so far in their games are mostly IMPLIED and simply showing a little skin here and there.

And yet this wasn't the case with ME1. So why the sudden change? Why the departure from something that, while granted was more suggestive in nature, was nonetheless tame and still only implied the act? That's what some of us want to know?

I see the same amount of skin in ME1 and ME2, and I have completed ME1 multiple times. Pray tell, where's the departure? Is it only because they have underwear just like DAO? I just visualize and treat it as foreplay. The actual sex scene I have no need to see and a simple fade to black is enough.

[Bigeyez]

neftones wrote...

Bigeyez wrote...

neftones wrote...

snip

If thats all you see from these relationships then lets just agree to disagree, because I do not see them in that way at all. Judging from all the dev comments and interviews they to do not see their romances as purely about getting laid either.

What part of "Yes, it is absolutely about connecting with the LI and forming a
serious relationship, but the focus for the climax (no pun intended) of
the game mechanic is on the sex. " is throwing you off guy?  

Thats just it. I don't believe sex is the focus of the climax for the relationship. It's the bond the characters share and them finally having an intimate moment together, Sex or no sex.

Again lets just agree to disagree because it's pretty obvious I'm not going to change your opinion and you're not going to change mine. We simply view the game differently and thats ok.

[Majpain007]

Stanley Woo wrote...

It's kinda funny that this topic keeps coming up over and over again. People who claim to be old enough and mature enough to handle sex and nudity in a game seem to believe that any lack of sex and nudity in the game is a sign of self-censorship. They generally don't believe that a game can be called "mature" without explicit sex and/or nudity.

Let me tell you, folks, that as a developer full of mature individuals, we are also free to not have explicit sex and/or nudity in our games, no matter what you, Fox News, the government, or Bunky the Wonder Clown has to say about it. We have never considered it a "problem," it is simply a choice we have made and we have every right to make that choice.

I think you guys made the right choice on these scenes. They are rather tame but its tasteful it gets the point across.

[corebit]

neftones wrote...

corebit wrote...

Thinking the "reward" is sex is YOUR OPINION. Other people who disagree with you say the "reward" is developing a relationship with that character and sex is only a minor point. The Bioware developers seem to agree with the second group, because all the sex scenes so far in their games are mostly IMPLIED and simply showing a little skin here and there.

What relationship do you have with the LIs after you have sex with them?  In either game?  Is there anything at all other than physical interaction in ME2?  No.  There isn't even that in ME1.  The endgame of the romance subplot - the "mission complete" reward, in other words - is sex.  This is a fact, it is not a matter of opinion. 

You are confusing the last thing they do in the relationship for a "reward". In Dragon Age, the "sex" happens fairly early, but I was looking forward to the other dialogue interactions with my romance character. Like I said, saying "sex is a reward" is your opinion.

[The Demonologist]

I think we're all forgetting something here... Even if its misrepresented, as we've all been taught by those amusing 'about high school' television shows and other such things, a relationship -shouldn't- be about sex, and not to fail miserably, but I think Bioware does that just fine?



Sex is an aspect of a relationship, but in a game that proclaims depth of narrative and story, shouldn't they handle their relationships in a 'deep' manner?



Even though I haven't played it through, it seems like the Kelly romance is all about sex though. Still, they stylistically chose to hint rather than show, so stylistically they shouldn't change it for that one.

[Bigeyez]

Since I've been saying why I don't think sex would fit Mass Effect I'll also give an example of where I DO think sex fits the story.

God Of War. Kratos is EXACTLY the type of character who absoulutely views sex as purely something he wants to do for the pleasure. It makes sense for him as a character to have that threesome scene, finish up, and then continue on his day killing demons and Gods. Sex is nothing special to him. (At least not now that his wife and family are dead) Sex to him is purely for the fun of it. A sex scene with him would just further the notion that he is this animalistic guy thats driven by his urges. Did the devs go with a real sex scene with nudity for him? No they didn't, but if they did I feel it would fit him and his story prefectly.

Again this is all just my opinion and I don't expect everyone to see stories how i see stories.

Modifié par Bigeyez, 06 février 2010 - 01:47 .

[The Demonologist]

I think you're being perfectly sensible, Bigeyez.