954 réponses à ce sujet

[Bigeyez]

The Demonologist wrote...

Even though I haven't played it through, it seems like the Kelly romance is all about sex though. Still, they stylistically chose to hint rather than show, so stylistically they shouldn't change it for that one.

I'll totally give you this. The Kelly romance does completely seem to be based on physical attraction and really nothing else. You don't really build a relationship with her. You don't really even find out that much about her as a character. You just flirt about each others appearances a couple of times, take her out, and bam she's all up in your cabin in skin tight leather.  Yet oddly enough the game doesn't count that as a real romance (or at least achievements don't) and you don't actually get to have sex with her...

[The Demonologist]

Could it be a betrayal of Bioware's true thoughts on the matter? Hrm!

[Bigeyez]

The Demonologist wrote...

Could it be a betrayal of Bioware's true thoughts on the matter? Hrm!

DUN DUN DUUUUUN!!! I think you may have something My Dear Watson.....hehe

[neftones]

Bigeyez wrote...

Since I've been saying why I don't think sex would fit Mass Effect I'll also give an example of where I DO think sex fits the story.

God Of War. Kratos is EXACTLY the type of character who absoulutely views sex as purely something he wants to do for the pleasure. It makes sense for him as a character to have that threesome scene, finish up, and then continue on his day killing demons and Gods. Sex is nothing special to him. (At least not now that his wife and family are dead) Sex to him is purely for the fun of it. A sex scene with him would just further the notion that he is this animalistic guy thats driven by his urges. Did the devs go with a real sex scene with nudity for him? No they didn't, but if they did I feel it would fit him and his story prefectly.

Again this is all just my opinion and I don't expect everyone to see stories how i see stories.

So wait, if a game shows a sex scene between two characters, then that automatically means the relationship is only about sex?  That is what you're saying, and, well, I don't even really know what to say about that.  

Nevermind the fact that the first two God of War games were on the PS2, a very different era for gaming, and even then nudity was all over it AND you had a threesome as a minigame.  You are not making any sense whatsoever.  I understand your argument is that Mass Effect's relationships should be about more than sex, AND THEY ARE, but you're completely failing to grasp the argument I and others are making: you can treat sex in a mature way, without absurd censorship or glossing over it as much as possible, and still have a game and a relationship that is about more than sex.  That by going out of their way to make the romantic interactions as tame as possible, Bioware has undercut an entire game's worth of character development and taken out all the emotional impact of the relationships.  This isn't because we don't see ****** or ass, this is because it is nearly impossible to buy into the significance of the LI with the absurdly childish intimate scenes and dialog.  

[neftones]

The Demonologist wrote...

Could it be a betrayal of Bioware's true thoughts on the matter? Hrm!

You realize that the nature of Bioware's "true thoughts on the matter" are exactly the problem here?  I mean, by your highlighting them, you are illustrating perfectly the shortcomings of the romance subplot, not supporting your argument.  Just so we're clear.

[Skemte]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I can understand how it must seem to players who really, really, really want to see HBO- and Showtime-like sex and nudity in our stories, but that's not what makes our games great, and ironically, insisting on sex and nudity tends to make people look immature. Just because you'd like to see somehing--anything--doesn't mean that we will do it or agree with your reasons to include/not include it.

and to both sides of the argument, let's please keep the insults out of the discussion. Thank you.

...  Uhh I don't know where he said  that, he was just merely pointing out that the past two games went backwards from the Mass Effect 1 scene..   To me it felt like a lack of immersion, i wasn't expecting nudity but something around the lines to Mass Effect 1..  But of course its perfectly fine to blow holes into peoples heads, to burn them alive, to watch them get harvested and devoured in a pod..

[Bigeyez]

Neftones, can you please describe what exactly you believe is a mature way to handle a sex scene? And no I'm not being sarcastic or tring to mock you or anything like that. I really want to understand what you would view as something that fits the game. I know of course that you don't want straight up porn in the game, but what do you think would be an example of handleing a sex scene in a good manner?

[corebit]

The Demonologist wrote...

I think we're all forgetting something here... Even if its misrepresented, as we've all been taught by those amusing 'about high school' television shows and other such things, a relationship -shouldn't- be about sex, and not to fail miserably, but I think Bioware does that just fine?

Sex is an aspect of a relationship, but in a game that proclaims depth of narrative and story, shouldn't they handle their relationships in a 'deep' manner?

Even though I haven't played it through, it seems like the Kelly romance is all about sex though. Still, they stylistically chose to hint rather than show, so stylistically they shouldn't change it for that one.

You're right. Bioware should have done better on emphasizing the "romance" in the relationship. So the solution is NOT more nudity and explicit scenes as some people suggest, right? Showing full nudity only makes the game focus entirely on the sex, and the relationship becomes simply a empty vessel to see that.

[The Demonologist]

Who said I was supporting any arguement? Merely making note, my friend.



I'm not interested in seeing any of you shot down or burned at the stake for offering this arguement. That'd be silly. I want to agree, but I'm just finding it hard with the reasons provided.



If I -may- refute, as I've stated previously, it didn't seem to me like censorship, merely a different approach to the act itself. A focus on the foreplay more than the actual deed, if you will. As previously stated by Juneya I believe, 'its all in the foreplay.' Yes, they did a tasteful job with the sex scenes in ME1. However, it doesn't seem like anything was lost?



Different, not deficient.



On another note, can't we all discuss this like friends? Feel lots of tension over so miniscule a thing.



Cough. Coming from -both- sides.

[gneissguy2003]

The Demonologist wrote...

On another note, can't we all discuss this like friends? Feel lots of tension over so miniscule a thing.

Cough. Coming from -both- sides.

This time I do completely agree with you.  After your last response to me I needed to sit back for a bit and remind myself that this isn't worth getting overly tempermental about.

[bconk55]

AGogley wrote...

IMHO, Bioware is becoming more generic with the romantic interests so that they can cater to every possible sexual preference. It's all about getting to sex with very little romantic progression, especially considering that some characters claim to be in love with you.  I don't need to see a sex scene.  I thought the scene in KOTOR where Bastila admits she is in love with you was very fulfilling as far character development.   But no...it's all about getting the girl in bed with you.

I'm with you on this one. All the relationships feel so formulaic. I shouldn't have to wait until right before the final mission to sleep with someone, and that shouldn't be the only goal of the interaction. Frankly, going to talk to Miranda between missions only to hear the same, "I'll see you when things are quiet," was tiresome. I wanted to talk to her about the mission we just completed. I wanted her view on a few situations. I would have loved for her to chime in during missions, maybe even attempt to sway my decision on something in her favor due to our relationship.

Everything being regulated to the ship, and everything being on such a strict schedule is troubling. Woo can talk all he wants about artistic vision, but, for the most part, relationships in ME2 ARE all about the sex scene. Might as well throw in some nudity as a pay off, because there certainly isn't any pay off in the form of character or story development.

Modifié par bconk55, 06 février 2010 - 02:18 .

[corebit]

The Demonologist wrote...

I think we're all forgetting something here... Even if its misrepresented, as we've all been taught by those amusing 'about high school' television shows and other such things, a relationship -shouldn't- be about sex, and not to fail miserably, but I think Bioware does that just fine?

Sex is an aspect of a relationship, but in a game that proclaims depth of narrative and story, shouldn't they handle their relationships in a 'deep' manner?

Even though I haven't played it through, it seems like the Kelly romance is all about sex though. Still, they stylistically chose to hint rather than show, so stylistically they shouldn't change it for that one.

You're right. Bioware should have done better on emphasizing the "romance" in the relationship. So the solution is NOT more nudity and explicit scenes as some people suggest, right? Showing full nudity only makes the game focus entirely on the sex, and the relationship becomes simply a empty vessel to see that.

Some people keep comparing this to nudity in movies. Well, most movies are all sex and no romance. Do you want Bioware to emulate that? No? Then stop comparing it to movies then. Young people growing up with the Hollywood of today naturally equate romance with sex. They see the main actor meeting some woman he hasn't met, talk for a lightning-fast five minutes and immediately jump to bed.

Modifié par corebit, 06 février 2010 - 02:12 .

[Zhijn]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I can understand how it must seem to players who really, really, really want to see HBO- and Showtime-like sex and nudity in our stories, but that's not what makes our games great, and ironically, insisting on sex and nudity tends to make people look immature. Just because you'd like to see somehing--anything--doesn't mean that we will do it or agree with your reasons to include/not include it.

and to both sides of the argument, let's please keep the insults out of the discussion. Thank you.

I hear what your saying. Altho as a 29yro closing in on 30 with 13 years as a gamer i think sex and nudity to a degree is due time for video games that offer romances. If done in a proper way like Heavy Rain or Fahrenheit (indigo prophecy) i see no issues with it, especially if it falls in line with a good story or characters. Actually ME1 dealt with it quite alright.

Iv grown up with very limited censoreship on TV , News and the real world so mabye thats why i dont see nudity as problem, the hole "it'll scar your kids for life" is just BS if you ask me.  You got heads blowing off on TV but flash the side of a boob and some people just go awire. Never made much sens to me tbh.

Some will probably ask "why", and i honestly dont know why. Mabye because im pushing 30 and im tired of games still being considered "for kids".

[The Demonologist]

gneissguy2003 wrote...

The Demonologist wrote...

On another note, can't we all discuss this like friends? Feel lots of tension over so miniscule a thing.

Cough. Coming from -both- sides.

This time I do completely agree with you.  After your last response to me I needed to sit back for a bit and remind myself that this isn't worth getting overly tempermental about.

Don't worry, its not the issue that is causing this, just the manner in which its being discussed.

For those of you foaming at the mouth on one side of the fence or another, step back and think. I promise you, this will have no bearing on the game. It's merely an exchange of opinions on a forum. Is it worth getting mad over? Nonsense! It's just interesting to see different points of view.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I always come into these things hoping someone will say something to completely sway my opinion and make me go 'Wow! I never thought of it that way.'

OH! To go off topic (I APOLOGIZE!) I cannot wait for Heavy Rain! Just played the demo, it was AWESOME!

Indigo Prophecy became Dragonball Z after a certain point, but this one seems far superior. If anything, Heavy Rain is a story absolutely suited to a more 'hinting' handling of any scenes. I believe as they put it for an individual scene, its supposed to make you feel uncomfortable, for if you were in the character's shoes, you wouldn't be happy either!

Modifié par The Demonologist, 06 février 2010 - 02:16 .

[Bigeyez]

neftones wrote...

So wait, if a game shows a sex scene between two characters, then that automatically means the relationship is only about sex?  That is what you're saying, and, well, I don't even really know what to say about that.  

snip

No it doesn't automatically mean a relationship is about sex...Thats just one example in which I think a graphic sex scene would have made sense. If that snippet of story were in a film I'd fully expect to see nudity in it.

To provide you with another example of where I think nudity and a full on sex scene makes sense, I'll refer you to Watchmen (the movie) and 300 (the movie). In both these cases the relationships here are meaningful and definitely NOT just about sex. The characters have sex and in these cases sex actually shows how deep their emotional connections really are.

Could they make something like those two scenes work in Mass Effect? I'm sure they could, but Bioware would have to change how they approach romances in their games.

[corebit]

Zhijn wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

I can understand how it must seem to players who really, really, really want to see HBO- and Showtime-like sex and nudity in our stories, but that's not what makes our games great, and ironically, insisting on sex and nudity tends to make people look immature. Just because you'd like to see somehing--anything--doesn't mean that we will do it or agree with your reasons to include/not include it.

and to both sides of the argument, let's please keep the insults out of the discussion. Thank you.

I hear what your saying. Altho as a 29yro closing in on 30 with 13 years as a gamer i think sex and nudity to a degree is due time for video games that offer romances. If done in a proper way like Heavy Rain or Fahrenheit (indigo prophecy) i see no issues with it, especially if it falls in line with a good story or characters. Actually ME1 dealt with it quite alright.

Iv grown up with very limited censoreship on TV , News and the real world so mabye thats why i dont see nudity as problem, the hole "it'll scar your kids for life" is just BS if you ask me.  You got heads blowing off on TV but flash the side of a boob and some people just go awire. Never made much sens to me tbh.

Some will probably ask "why", and i honestly dont know why. Mabye because im pushing 30 and im tired of games still being considered "for kids".

Different cultures are different. I understand europeans are very lax with nudity. It doesn't mean it's better and it doesn't mean your viewpoint or standard has to apply to every country. Bioware is selling a product to various regions in the world, and they have to take cultural sensitivities into account.

Modifié par corebit, 06 février 2010 - 02:21 .

[Aceattack]

This thread need alittle relevant levity I found this on IGN its a Mega64 production of is there censorship in ME2. The swearing is bleeped out put some of the themes are sexual refrences to quote the FCC viewer discretion is advised.



http://video.ign.com...ect2_20410.html

[The Demonologist]

Maybe its just me, but it isn't a matter of censoring for one culture or another. It's stylistically different but accomplishes the same goal, so why the big deal over it -not- being included?

[Fraq Hound]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I can understand how it must seem to players who really, really, really want to see HBO- and Showtime-like sex and nudity in our stories, but that's not what makes our games great, and ironically, insisting on sex and nudity tends to make people look immature. Just because you'd like to see somehing--anything--doesn't mean that we will do it or agree with your reasons to include/not include it.

and to both sides of the argument, let's please keep the insults out of the discussion. Thank you.

It's true that sex scenes are not what makes your games great. You guys put alot of work into your games and the universes they take place in and that is what makes them fun. I've really enjoyed every game you guys have made including the romance dialogues leading up to the sex scenes.

While I would personally like to see nudity in your games (when it is appropriate), I am also okay with scenes like those found in ME2 where you cut away from the scene before nudity becomes an issue.

I am not okay with showing two people in the middle of intercourse, but wearing clothes that would prevent said intercourse. Dragon Age's sex scenes are laughable. The game would have been better if you had:

A:) Treated those scenes similar to the ones found in either Mass Effect game. (Cut away before nudity is an issue, or used the camera so as not to show the vulgar bits)

B:) Put nudity in the scenes.

C:) Removed the scenes completely.

I have seen a video on youtube where the nudity was modded into Dragon Age Origins PC version and it made those scenes (which originally I thought looked horrible) better.

[WilliamShatner]

The problem with the DA:O is that is insults the players intelligence. Morrigan is clearly not wearing a bra throughout the entire game, but she suddenly puts one on to have sex?

[Zhijn]

corebit wrote...

Zhijn wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

I can understand how it must seem to players who really, really, really want to see HBO- and Showtime-like sex and nudity in our stories, but that's not what makes our games great, and ironically, insisting on sex and nudity tends to make people look immature. Just because you'd like to see somehing--anything--doesn't mean that we will do it or agree with your reasons to include/not include it.

and to both sides of the argument, let's please keep the insults out of the discussion. Thank you.

I hear what your saying. Altho as a 29yro closing in on 30 with 13 years as a gamer i think sex and nudity to a degree is due time for video games that offer romances. If done in a proper way like Heavy Rain or Fahrenheit (indigo prophecy) i see no issues with it, especially if it falls in line with a good story or characters. Actually ME1 dealt with it quite alright.

Iv grown up with very limited censoreship on TV , News and the real world so mabye thats why i dont see nudity as problem, the hole "it'll scar your kids for life" is just BS if you ask me.  You got heads blowing off on TV but flash the side of a boob and some people just go awire. Never made much sens to me tbh.

Some will probably ask "why", and i honestly dont know why. Mabye because im pushing 30 and im tired of games still being considered "for kids".

Different cultures are different. I understand europeans are very lax with nudity. It doesn't mean it's better and it doesn't mean your viewpoint or standard has to apply to every country. Bioware is selling a product to various regions in the world, and they have to take cultural sensitivities into account.

Thats sort of a contradict, no?. Like saying, appeal to the senstive cultures and ignore the rest?. =)

Either way, if the video game had nudity in one country there is no doubt in my mind gamers around the world would mod it into their own game which ever country censored it. Should mabye be an option for both worlds, altho that does spell more work for the Devs.

[Impresario]

Bigeyez wrote...

Neftones, can you please describe what exactly you believe is a mature way to handle a sex scene? And no I'm not being sarcastic or tring to mock you or anything like that. I really want to understand what you would view as something that fits the game. I know of course that you don't want straight up porn in the game, but what do you think would be an example of handleing a sex scene in a good manner?

Actually, the plot is well suited for a mature treatment of intimacy. Shepard's been dead for two years. He's entrusted w/ a mission that has little hope of success. Miranda, genetically engineered--doubting her distinct individualism. Shepard uncertain of Cerberus--Miranda believing that the organization is her sanctuary. Two disparate people find themselves thrown together under unlikely circumstances. The pressure on them not to fail, while also experiencing their own internal conflicts must be immense.  How do they reaffirm their humanity and find solace from the weight of the burdens that they carry. How do they feel alive even if it's only for a few brief stolen moments. By joining they are able to permit one another to let go from the responsibility of command and the weight of being an engineered creation. The passion and release both desperately need to feel, by escaping within each other, could have been portrayed in a credibly adult manner. Instead we're given Shepard spouting bad pick-up lines.    

[Ktauliss]

WilliamShatner wrote...

The problem with the DA:O is that is insults the players intelligence. Morrigan is clearly not wearing a bra throughout the entire game, but she suddenly puts one on to have sex?

Not Limited to Morrigan as the 'Nude Texture given for Females in DA:O includes the same Panties/bra.  The issue then is that the Clothing Texture is more revealing than the 'nude' texture.

[Impresario]

Ryuuichi009 wrote...

When the hell hasn't Shep sprouted bad pick up lines? I want to know the option because M!Shep is cheezy as hell.

I agree, but is it intentional (as in they're trying to be campy) or are they just taking the easy way out?  I don't know enough about the mass effect universe to answer that.  Aren't there companion books or something that this is all based on?