42 réponses à ce sujet

[Dorryn]

Hello folks.

Apologies in advance if this has been brought up before, but I don't believe it has been.

I'd like to have everyone's opinion (constructive if possible) on something I've been scratching my head about for some time.

When Mass Effect begin, Saren is Sovereign's agent and wants him to open the Citadel's Mass relay by transfering control of the station to him through the Council chamber's main control. Got that.

So Saren attacks Eden Prime to get the beacon so that he can find the Conduit. Why does he need the Conduit? Because apparently he needs to bypass the Citadel's outer defenses.

My question is why? I can understand the logic once he's been
declared a traitor, but Saren didn't start looking for the Conduit after being declared a traitor, he started
some time before that. It's safe to assume when he attacks Eden Prime, he's already been looking for the Conduit for some time.

At this point in the story (again I'm talking from a beginning-of-ME1 POV) he is still a Spectre, one of the best and most trusted agent of the Council. According to Anderson "He can go anywhere, do almost anything". So why does he need to bypass the citadel's outer defense? Once he/she becomes a Spectre later in the game, Shepard can dock at the Citadel and walk in the council chamber anytime... So why can't Saren?

Why wasting time and resources looking for means to sneak in the citadel when he could walk in there, wait sor Sovereign to get through the nearby Mass relay, access the console and then give it control of the station? Even if some people tried to stop him, he could certainly dispatch them, being the best Spectre and all. Besides, if the whole Turian fleet expecting Sovereign at the end of the game
couldn't stop it, it would have an even easier time shrugging off the few ships that aren't expecting it.

So.... Am I missing an important element of the plot here? Or maybe I'm not thinking straight, it's possible. But frankly I get the feeling Bioware overlooked something.

[Avissel]

The platform he needs access to is under heavy guard, if he accessed it without using his geth for the sneak attack, and they then saw that he was using the terminal to take over the station he would be gunned down almost instantly. Which would have meant that the ward arms would have stayed open and the fleet would have been able to fire on sovereign the entire time. No matter how strong he is he wouldn't be able to last forever. That's why he had to make sure and pull off the double sided attack.



The reason he was so intent on finding the conduit is because he only knows what Sovereign knows.



"The conduit was used to stop our plans" He doesn't know what it is, or how it works, or what it even does that stopped their plans. So in order to cover all bases he wants to secure it before proceeding with his plans.

[Veex]

You're not, just an oversight for the most part. Unless for some reason Sovereign needed to amass the Geth fleet for the assault on the citadel to combat the council fleet?

[mattp420]

http://social.biowar...04/index/972163

[Madman17]

Not only that but the reapers would want to know what the conduit is and probably destroy it if they could, i mean it stopped their plans they wont want that happening again

[Andorfiend]

The problem is that Sovereign knows that the Protheans jacked-up his plans somehow, but he doesn't know how. Until he get's to Ilos and discovers that the key change was made to the Keepers and not the Citadel itself he doesn't know that all he needs to do is access the manual override. At that point he merely uses the Conduit as an expedient way to attack on two fronts.

[Murmillos]

Remember, Sovereign using Saren was not Sovereign first attempt to regain control.

First Sovereign tried to use the Rachni to weaken the Council races - but was thwarted by the discovery of the Krogan.

Sovereign knows that a direct assault will not work, and there is the nagging matter of knowing what the Conduit is. Sovereign finds the use of Saren after the Krogan Rebellion (which creates the super above the law soldiers 'Specters').

Sovereign then uses Saren, whom then tries to stall Sovereign - thus the long quest of delay in trying to find the Conduit. Its not that the Conduit has to be found (but its intended use once founded is helpful) its just if it wasn't for that delay, Saren sneaking into the Council chambers along with an attack from the Geth/Krogan would have been good enough to give control to Sovereign at any time, but Saren was looking to delay Sovereign (Virmire explains this) to be able to convince him organics are "useful". But I doubt Sovereign cared or even would honor Sarens request - he already wasted 1600 years in planning, whats a few more listening to Saren rabble on when in the end, they are all going to be dead anyways.

Modifié par Murmillos, 05 février 2010 - 07:08 .

[DPSSOC]

My understanding of why Saren didn't just walk in and use the control is that through the beacon Saren, and by extension Sovereign, learned of the existence of the Conduit, but they didn't know exactly what it did. So he sends Saren to find the Conduit, and had Saren not been exposed once they figured out what it was Saren may have just marched into the Citadel Tower and used the console, who knows.



In short I got the impression that they weren't looking for the Conduit to sneak into the Citadel they were looking for the Conduit because they had no idea what it was, how it worked, and how it might impede trying to open the relay.

[Dorryn]

Looks like opinions vary...



Whatever the reason was I can't help but thinking Saren wasted his time searching for the Conduit. Good think for the galaxy that he did though.

[Kouper]

The beacon was necessary, sovereign knew that the conduit existed and was used by the Protheans to prevent the keepers from bringing the citadel online. He didn't know what or where it was specifically. The beacon's where designed for an organic mind, thus sovereign couldn't actually use them himself. he needed saren for that regard.



Saren was trusted, however the second he started closing the arms and sovereign mounted the citadel, saren woulda been shot and the entire fleet would have attacked him. Sovereign is strong, but he's not invincible.



Also keep in mind, if they had attacked full on from outside and just stormed the citadel, the fleet would have responded, and there would have been no guarantee that sovereign could get in before the arms got closed to block him out....



This way seems round about but it provided the highest chance of success,

[Zaxares]

It was probably a case of "risks are too high" when it came to formulating the plans. Sure, Saren could have tried smuggling in lots of Geth onto the Citadel the same way Benezia did on Noveria, but bear in mind that the Citadel has C-Sec; over 200,000 well-trained security agents. They might be spread out all across the Citadel, but you'd still need a significant number of Geth to be able to overcome that amount of security. And if you're smuggling in troops one or two crates at a time, the chance of discovery would have been too great.



Sovereign only had one shot at this, since if he failed and was destroyed, the Reapers would have been trapped out in dark space forever. Even if he survived, the galaxy would now be alerted to his presence, and he'd be hunted down wherever he went. Accordingly, he likely didn't want to make the assault on the Citadel until the odds were sufficiently tilted enough in his favour.



It's also possible that Saren himself was stalling/trying to dissuade Sovereign from taking over the Citadel until he had a chance to prove that the organic races were worthwhile preserving.

[natetodamax]

Finding the Conduit allowed him to launch an assault on the Citadel with ship loads of Geth. Thus, he was able to make it to the top of the Council tower with little trouble, since everyone was being shot up.

[CaptainZaysh]

Murmillos wrote...

First Sovereign tried to use the Rachni to weaken the Council races

That's just speculation, it's not confirmed anywhere in-game.  I never bought the whole "the rachni were indoctrinated" bit.

[Dorryn]

"Finding the Conduit allowed him to launch an assault on the Citadel with ship loads of Geth. Thus, he was able to make it to the top of the Council tower with little trouble, since everyone was being shot up."

He would also have been able to go to the top of the Tower without trouble if he hadn't been proven a traitor after his actions at Eden Prime, which were about finding the conduit. As I said, he could walk in the council chamber anytime and wait for the alarms to signal an attack from Geth and an unknown massive ship. And as everyone runs away to shelter, he has a clear path to his goal.



If you look at how the events unfold at the end of the game, once Saren has made it through the conduit, is there anything or anyone to stop him to get to the console? Not nobody. When he arrives there the only living things around are keepers... No bodies of guards on the floor. So I don't buy the whole "The council's chamber is heavily guarded argument" either. Unless all the civilians present in the council chamber when Shepard goes there are Spectres in disguise, the place is awfully undefended.

[SargeantRenegade]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Murmillos wrote...

First Sovereign tried to use the Rachni to weaken the Council races

That's just speculation, it's not confirmed anywhere in-game.  I never bought the whole "the rachni were indoctrinated" bit.

Reaper involvement in the Rachni Wars is confirmed, but not in ME1.  Any further discourse regarding this particular data is best taken to PM or to the ME2 spoilers forum.

[JonathanS223]

CaptainZaysh wrote...


That's just speculation, it's not confirmed anywhere in-game.  I never bought the whole "the rachni were indoctrinated" bit.

MASS EFFECT 2 SPOILER WARNING

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They hint at the Rachni being indoctrinated on when Sheppard goes to Illium and runs in to the Asari in the trade area which she brings a message from his "friend from Noveria".

Something about their song being soured by those who Sheppard fights. There's a little more information there for indoctrination.

[Madodaz]

I want to know? How the **** did saren even know there was a conduit. The reapers skipped illios. And I doubt saren randomly attacked a colaney for the fun of it.

[Dorryn]

Saren no doubt got this information from Sovereign. How did the latter managed to learn about it while probably remain a mystery from some time, but according to Vigil he probably spent a looooooot of time figuring out what went wrong with the keepers.

[Andorfiend]

Remember that when you first meet Liara she's heard of the Conduit but only knows it has something to do with the extinction. From this I guess that someone somewhere was exposed to another beacon and what they managed to get from the visions made it into the galactic literature on the Protheans.

[ruleonecardio]

Keep in mind the Conduit was NOT created by the Reapers. It was created by the remaining Prothean scientists on Ilos. They created the beacons as a warning that could only be read/interpreted by Organics. Sovereign could not access/read these beacon/warnings, and he needed Saren to interpret these beacons. From there he learned of the conduit's backdoor access to the citadel, which was necessary in order to avoid a direct, prolonged frontal assault from which Sovereign could not withstand (as evidenced by the 5th fleets later attack on him). Hope that clears some stuff up.

[implodinggoat]

If Saren wanted to get on the Citadel he wouldn't need the conduit; but if he wants to bring several thousand Geth with him he does.

[ruleonecardio]

He needs the conduit in order to bypass Citadel security forces and take control of the station arms and defenses. It would be much more difficult to come through the normal Relay and try to mount an assault and dock at the citadel during a battle.

[tsd16]

Heres how I see it playing out:

Basically Neither sovereign nor Saren knew what the conduit was, but knew it had something to do with the keeprs not opening the relay and thought when they found it, it would provide a mean to reactivate the keepers, but it didnt turned out to be a relay to the citadel.  In a last ditch effort to salvage what suprise they had left, they sent a ground force through the iilos relay with saren to take control of the citadels defenses, as Sovereign went with the geth fleet so he could hook up to the citadel and try and open the relay.

Ive always been under the impression the reapers are not as all knowing and powerful as they lead on and are subject to making mistakes.

Modifié par tsd16, 09 février 2010 - 01:47 .

[Spell Singer]

Sovereign had to be physically present to take control of the citadel. It could not just waltz in even if Saren was on the citadel itself. It had to find a way to first attack the citadel fleet (in come the geth) and dock to the presidium tower to gain control of the citadel without the organics activating the citadel defenses to close the arms.



So when it discovers what the conduit is...It now has a way to get an army onto the citadel so that the chances of anything interfering with manually taking control of the station are minimal especially if used in conjunction with the geth fleet mounting a standard assault to cover It.



I don't see a plot hole, the conduit allowed Sovereign to get an army onto the citadel right next to the presidium tower and with complete tactical surprise. It basically insured that the ward arms would close only after It docked and so that it could work on getting the keepers back in line so the station could be powered up to bring in the reaper fleet without pesky organics interfering.



It is to me a perfectly logical plan as compared to trusting that Saren could somehow keep control of the station controls long enough for It to come out of the mass relay and get to the station plus with an army of geth already on the station it isn't likely that too much in the way of ground attacks would be mounted on it.

[Sigiles90]

I'm with tsd16 on this one, that neither Sovereign or Saren knew what the Conduit was, just that they needed it somehow. And the obvious reason to why they can't just storm in and take control is that if they do that without someone on the inside the Citadel closes, denying Sovereign access.



Oh and keep in mind, that Saren probably couldn't just stroll in and take control by himself. Yes, he's a spectre, but he can die. So alone he wouldn't be able to kill everyone and take control. He would need someone on his side, (the geth or krogan). But they can't just walk in there (maybe the krogan can but not in the numbers required, they would raise suspicion), and thus they needed the Conduit, a surprise attack right in the middle of the Presidium where C-Sec could not respond fast enough.