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[Wintermist]

Dorryn wrote...

Hello folks.

Apologies in advance if this has been brought up before, but I don't believe it has been.

I'd like to have everyone's opinion (constructive if possible) on something I've been scratching my head about for some time.

When Mass Effect begin, Saren is Sovereign's agent and wants him to open the Citadel's Mass relay by transfering control of the station to him through the Council chamber's main control. Got that.

So Saren attacks Eden Prime to get the beacon so that he can find the Conduit. Why does he need the Conduit? Because apparently he needs to bypass the Citadel's outer defenses.

My question is why? I can understand the logic once he's been
declared a traitor, but Saren didn't start looking for the Conduit after being declared a traitor, he started
some time before that. It's safe to assume when he attacks Eden Prime, he's already been looking for the Conduit for some time.

At this point in the story (again I'm talking from a beginning-of-ME1 POV) he is still a Spectre, one of the best and most trusted agent of the Council. According to Anderson "He can go anywhere, do almost anything". So why does he need to bypass the citadel's outer defense? Once he/she becomes a Spectre later in the game, Shepard can dock at the Citadel and walk in the council chamber anytime... So why can't Saren?

Why wasting time and resources looking for means to sneak in the citadel when he could walk in there, wait sor Sovereign to get through the nearby Mass relay, access the console and then give it control of the station? Even if some people tried to stop him, he could certainly dispatch them, being the best Spectre and all. Besides, if the whole Turian fleet expecting Sovereign at the end of the game
couldn't stop it, it would have an even easier time shrugging off the few ships that aren't expecting it.

So.... Am I missing an important element of the plot here? Or maybe I'm not thinking straight, it's possible. But frankly I get the feeling Bioware overlooked something.

The reason might be he wanted to bring the Geth to the Citadel as well, since even though he's a Spectre, he wouldn' be given access to the Citadel's controls. He would need to do that by force, that's why he needs to get the Geth in there too, I assume.

Modifié par Wintermist, 09 février 2010 - 03:10 .

[Spell Singer]

As for Sovereign not knowing what the conduit was...well first off it is unlikely it would not know that the keepers had been tampered with how that was accomplished it likely would not know. It also would (assuming it got the information from Saren) immediately realize the "mass relay statue" is not a statue but an actual relay. What it would not know is where the other relay is, and then when it finds out that it is Ilos it has to figure out how to get there. Once it discovered the existence of the relay on the Citadel the plan to find its other end and how to use it would have followed.  What isn't clear is how the protheans got the one half of the mass relay to the citadel, since if it had been there when the reapers cleansed things well I would have imagined they would have removed it during the clean up phase.  But since the keepers ignore it, I suspect that it was installed after the reapers had left and before they discovered how to tamper with the keepers.  Or maybe the reapers didn't figure it out...and that sovereign only recently sorted out that this "statue" is a functional relay...it doesn't matter that much.  That Saren and Sovereign know what they are looking for is clear.

It has been trying to get to the Citadel for a while, clearly only recently (likely from Saren) has it found out about the relay on the citadel and has started to look to see if it can find out where the other one is. Probably while going...ah ha so that is how the pesky organics got in to mess with the keepers.

Saren used one beacon some time in the past and the discovery of the second one fills in more details and then he uses the Thorian to understand what he has experienced to find out where to go...at which point he dispatches Benezia to secure the data from the Rachni about where the missing Mu relay can be found.

I don't see any major plot holes. It is likely the whole plan on using the conduit is fairly recent.

Modifié par Spell Singer, 09 février 2010 - 03:34 .

[nel e nel]

Well, having just done the whole Vigil convo last night, and keeping this thread in mind, there is a convo path that has Shepard asking basically the same thing: "Sovereign is the largest ship in the galaxy, why not go in guns blazing?" And Vigil replies saying that even though Sovereign is powerful, only 1 reaper would not be a match for the entire galactic armada. So he needed to bring the other Reapers out from Dark Space, but because the keepers had been altered and shut down the Reaper comm relay in the Citadel, Sovereign needed a back door to sneak up on the Citadel. Hence, the search for the Conduit.

They also explain that Ilos was a super secret base that the Reapers never found. So the Conduit was developed in total secrecy. So how would they know about it? The Reapers are very powerful, yes, and they do have the indoctrination, but I never got the impression that they are some sort of mystical force wielding Jedis that can sense a disturbance out in the Terminus Systems. 

As for them not knowing the keepers had been changed? Well, Vigil says that Sovereign probably laid dormant for thousands of years at a time, waking periodically to check the development of organic species. It's likely he wasn't checking for the keepers until the time came to signal the rest of the Reapers. At which point he realized they had been altered, which set in motion all of the events of ME1.

Basically, it's really important to explore all dialogue options with Vigil before you go to the Conduit as he essentially explains the entire plot of the game.

Modifié par nel e nel, 09 février 2010 - 03:55 .

[Spell Singer]

The only thing not really explained by Vigil is how they got the one half of the relay onto the citadel. The reapers would have sanitized the citadel after the protheans extinction to get it ready for the next occupants so it is hard to imagine they would have missed it if it had been there when their fleet showed up...and while Ilos was a secret base it is highly unlikely that the existence of an experimental mass relay on the citadel would not have been in some data base or some government officials...not to mention why on earth would the put the second half of an experimental system on their central hub system. That means it must have gotten there from Ilos after the reapers left...or else they failed to recognize what it was and the prothean government was into taking big risks. But even if the reapers had not known it was not art I would have guessed they would have removed in the sanitation phase. Other possibilities abound, such as that it is somehow possible to move the second half of the relay by using the first half. So by picking the citadel and triggering the Ilos relay it moved the "mass relay statue" to the citadel possibly along with the scientists who did the keeper modifications.

The only thing you know from the game is that the Keepers ignore the statue. That looks to be a sure sign of prothean tinkering. Beyond that how the relay got to the citadel is something only Bioware knows.

Modifié par Spell Singer, 09 février 2010 - 04:24 .

[nel e nel]

Spell Singer wrote...

The only thing not really explained by Vigil is how they got the one half of the relay onto the citadel. The reapers would have sanitized the citadel after the protheans extinction to get it ready for the next occupants so it is hard to imagine they would have missed it if it had been there when their fleet showed up...and while Ilos was a secret base it is highly unlikely that the existence of an experimental mass relay on the citadel would not have been in some data base or some government officials...not to mention why on earth would the put the second half of an experimental system on their central hub system. That means it must have gotten there from Ilos after the reapers left...or else they failed to recognize what it was and the prothean government was into taking big risks. But even if the reapers had not known it was not art I would have guessed they would have removed in the sanitation phase. Other possibilities abound, such as that it is somehow possible to move the second half of the relay by using the first half. So by picking the citadel and triggering the Ilos relay it moved the "mass relay statue" to the citadel possibly along with the scientists who did the keeper modifications.

The only thing you know from the game is that the Keepers ignore the statue. That looks to be a sure sign of prothean tinkering. Beyond that how the relay got to the citadel is something only Bioware knows.

Again, you guys need to exhaust ALL dialogue options and pay attention. The relay 'monument' (coupled with the Conduit on Ilos) was a prototype built by the Protheans in an attempt to master the mass relay technology. It's independent and not part of the Reaper relay network. It's only a mystery to the rest of us because it's 50k years old and there is no information left from the Protheans. The Conduit/Monument relay system has been inactive since the last time it was used - when Vigil sent the last scientists back to the Citadel to alter the Keepers to prevent them from receiving Sovereign's signal to open the Citadel relay and bring forth the Reapers. 

As for not believing that there were no records regarding Ilos? I dunno what to tell you man. There are plenty of blac-ops stuff going on in our own reality that have no records. If you can suspend your disbelief to go along with humans sleeping with aliens, why can't you suspend your disbelief that a secret research base is, like, you know, a secret?

[Tessarae]

Quick question that have been bothering me a little. Technically it's not about the Conduit, but it is about Saren and the geth and it is a plot-hole. At least unless someone here can clear it up for me.

On Eden Prime, Saren kills Nihlus and there's geth all over the place. But looking at the events from Shepards point of view, he/she only knows that it was Saren who killed Nihlus because of what the dockworker says. Shepard never actually sees Saren shoot Nihlus. And to add to that, there really isn't any proof that Saren is working with the geth. Sure, there's geth there and Saren is there too, but Saren is never seen in company with any geth by Shepard. We know it as players because we see some cutscenes, but Shepard couldn't have seen any of those things.

We get back to the Normandy and suddenly Anderson is saying that he doesn't know how, and he doesn't know why, but Saren is working with the geth. Now how did he know that? I don't believe Williams or Alenko would've aired such a conclusion if they had come to it, considering that there really is no proof and Shepard hasn't had a chance to say anything yet. The dockworker didn't mention anything about Saren controlling the geth as far as I recall. And even if he did, I kind of agree with the Council that on a matter this big, the word of a single unknown dockworker doesn't warrant serious actions. Just not enough proof. So, are we simply going along with Andersons conclusion here? Somehow he also knows that Saren got the information stored in the beacon and says word by word that he has an army of geth at his command and that this is an act of war.  If Shepard is simply believeing Andersons conclusions, how smart is that really, later finding out that he has major reasons to dislike Saren. Trying to be objective here.
Thoughts?

Modifié par Tessarae, 09 février 2010 - 06:27 .

[tsd16]

Tessarae wrote...

Quick question that have been bothering me a little. Technically it's not about the Conduit, but it is about Saren and the geth and it is a plot-hole. At least unless someone here can clear it up for me.

On Eden Prime, Saren kills Nihlus and there's geth all over the place. But looking at the events from Shepards point of view, he/she only knows that it was Saren who killed Nihlus because of what the dockworker says. Shepard never actually sees Saren shoot Nihlus. And to add to that, there really isn't any proof that Saren is working with the geth. Sure, there's geth there and Saren is there too, but Saren is never seen in company with any geth by Shepard. We know it as players because we see some cutscenes, but Shepard couldn't have seen any of those things.

We get back to the Normandy and suddenly Anderson is saying that he doesn't know how, and he doesn't know why, but Saren is working with the geth. Now how did he know that? I don't believe Williams or Alenko would've aired such a conclusion if they had come to it, considering that there really is no proof and Shepard hasn't had a chance to say anything yet. The dockworker didn't mention anything about Saren controlling the geth as far as I recall. And even if he did, I kind of agree with the Council that on a matter this big, the word of a single unknown dockworker doesn't warrant serious actions. Just not enough proof. So, are we simply going along with Andersons conclusion here? Somehow he also knows that Saren got the information stored in the beacon and says word by word that he has an army of geth at his command and that this is an act of war.  If Shepard is simply believeing Andersons conclusions, how smart is that really, later finding out that he has major reasons to dislike Saren. Trying to be objective here.
Thoughts?

I just now am replaying ME1 and Eden prime wasnt that long ago.  Nihlus, said "Saren?! what are you doing here?" the dockworker heard it and told shepard  "Your friend (Nihlus) called him Saren.".  I dont know if its possible to miss that dialogue option, but maybe its possible you did.  If you can miss that piece of dialogue, its an oversight on biowares part to not force it, not necissarily a plot hole, since the dockworker does in fact give you sarens name.

You did pass out for awhile, and why wouldnt Alenko and Williams share with Anderson what the dockworker said?  The dockworker said Saren shot Nihlus. 
A. Would some random human dockworker know the name of every spectre? Shepard is popular because hes the first human spectre, Saren would probably only be popular with turians.
B.  Since the dockworker knew Sarens name it lends some credibility to his story, a name he probably wouldnt have known unless he in fact is telling the truth.
C.  What does the dockworker stand to gain from lying about what he saw?  I mean he levels with you about how he avoided getting killed.  So you really have no reason to believe he isnt telling the truth.
D.  Anderson just happens to believe his story as well, and knows first hand how crooked Saren can be and that he hates humans.

Modifié par tsd16, 09 février 2010 - 10:16 .

[Tessarae]

tsd16 wrote...

I just now am replaying ME1 and Eden prime wasnt that long ago.  Nihlus, said "Saren?! what are you doing here?" the dockworker heard it and told shepard  "Your friend (Nihlus) called him Saren.".  I dont know if its possible to miss that dialogue option, but maybe its possible you did.  If you can miss that piece of dialogue, its an oversight on biowares part to not force it, not necissarily a plot hole, since the dockworker does in fact give you sarens name.

You did pass out for awhile, and why wouldnt Alenko and Williams share with Anderson what the dockworker said?  The dockworker said Saren shot Nihlus. 
A. Would some random human dockworker know the name of every spectre? Shepard is popular because hes the first human spectre, Saren would probably only be popular with turians.
B.  Since the dockworker knew Sarens name it lends some credibility to his story, a name he probably wouldnt have known unless he in fact is telling the truth.
C.  What does the dockworker stand to gain from lying about what he saw?  I mean he levels with you about how he avoided getting killed.  So you really have no reason to believe he isnt telling the truth.
D.  Anderson just happens to believe his story as well, and knows first hand how crooked Saren can be and that he hates humans.

Good points, I suppose we can safely assume Saren has gone rogue from the dockworker conversation. But what about the geth? How do they (Anderson) come to the conclusion that Saren is leading an army of geth? Are we just assuming, that since Saren has gone rogue and the geth were on Eden Prime, the two must be working together because they're both 'evil'? As far as I can tell Shepard or Anderson has no evidence that links the two and I hadn't thought about it until my 3rd playthrough because as a player you get the bomb cutscene.

[cpip]

Tessarae wrote...
Good points, I suppose we can safely assume Saren has gone rogue from the dockworker conversation. But what about the geth? How do they (Anderson) come to the conclusion that Saren is leading an army of geth? Are we just assuming, that since Saren has gone rogue and the geth were on Eden Prime, the two must be working together because they're both 'evil'? As far as I can tell Shepard or Anderson has no evidence that links the two and I hadn't thought about it until my 3rd playthrough because as a player you get the bomb cutscene.

Well, Anderson gets a lot of things wrong -- he's convinced Saren's in it just because he hates humans, he's convinced the Conduit is a weapon, he's convinced ... let's just leave it that Anderson's not, perhaps, the most impartial judge of things.  I'm pretty sure he's connecting the two because (a) Saren Hates Humans and ( The Geth attacked a human coloney, ergo A+B must be connected.

Admittedly, the odds of Evil Human-Hating Spectre just happening to be on Eden Prime at the same time as the first Geth attack in 400 years are pretty long, as they go...

[Spell Singer]

nel e nel wrote...

Again, you guys need to exhaust ALL dialogue options and pay attention. The relay 'monument' (coupled with the Conduit on Ilos) was a prototype built by the Protheans in an attempt to master the mass relay technology. It's independent and not part of the Reaper relay network. It's only a mystery to the rest of us because it's 50k years old and there is no information left from the Protheans. The Conduit/Monument relay system has been inactive since the last time it was used - when Vigil sent the last scientists back to the Citadel to alter the Keepers to prevent them from receiving Sovereign's signal to open the Citadel relay and bring forth the Reapers. 

As for not believing that there were no records regarding Ilos? I dunno what to tell you man. There are plenty of blac-ops stuff going on in our own reality that have no records. If you can suspend your disbelief to go along with humans sleeping with aliens, why can't you suspend your disbelief that a secret research base is, like, you know, a secret?

I have played ME five times and each time went through the dialogue options. 

added in edit: however time dims memory andyou tube actually helped...the relay was on the citadel when the invasion happened and apparently someone wiped the database clean of Ilos/prototype relay data during the invasion.  There must be some reason they built the prototype on the citadel since it isn't the most sensible place to do so.

And the reapers left the relay prototype alone after they left...which seems odd but there you go.

beyond that mea cupia maxima

Modifié par Spell Singer, 10 février 2010 - 12:35 .

[nel e nel]

Spell Singer wrote...

I have played ME five times and each time went through the dialogue options. 

added in edit: however time dims memory andyou tube actually helped...the relay was on the citadel when the invasion happened and apparently someone wiped the database clean of Ilos/prototype relay data during the invasion.  There must be some reason they built the prototype on the citadel since it isn't the most sensible place to do so.

And the reapers left the relay prototype alone after they left...which seems odd but there you go.

beyond that mea cupia maxima 

yeah, they never did explain why they chose the Citadel as the location for the other node of the conduit. As for the reapers leaving it alone, I got the impression that the reapers just took care of exterminating sapient life, and left the cleanup on the citadel afterwards to the keepers. I mean, could you imagine Sovereign trying to pick up that tiny relay with his 'fingers'? It'd be like trying to pick up a pin off the floor with gloves on. 

[Spell Singer]

I won't mention any mass effect 2 spoilers but them not spotting the relay is very odd all things considered. It is entirely possible there is a reason for the relay needing to be on the citadel...the citadel is a nexus after all.



But I got the impression they house cleaned the citadel after each cycle since leaving the last occupants art work would quickly end up with the whole place being nothing but statues to long forgotten races. But it is also possible the sanitizing is done by the keepers, and the protheans installed that "keeper repellent field" from the get go so the keepers would not dismantle their prototype relay.

[Sa3vis]

I would say he needed to do it this way because Sovereign isn't invincible. A straight on attack he would have died so instead they tried to summon his reaper pals. The problem was that they didn't understand why the keepers weren't opening the relay so they were trying to figure that out so he didn't just show up and end up not being able to do anything. Though honestly if Sovereign wasn't so full of himself he could have shown up and pretended to be diplomatic and then indocternate the counsel or just say he was an AI created by the Protheans and he needed to dock with the citadel to recharge. Then gone into their systems summoned his bodies and turned off the air. Thats just my plotting opinion but it wouldn't make for a good game.

[Sa3vis]

nel e nel wrote...
Yeah, they never did explain why they chose the Citadel as the location for the other node of the conduit. As for the reapers leaving it alone, I got the impression that the reapers just took care of exterminating sapient life, and left the cleanup on the citadel afterwards to the keepers. I mean, could you imagine Sovereign trying to pick up that tiny relay with his 'fingers'? It'd be like trying to pick up a pin off the floor with gloves on. 

Wasn't the conduit in the Citadel what the Reapers built to summon there forces? I just thought that the remaining Protheans just linked their prototype to it. So many questions but I wouldn't say major plot hole because it wasn't investigating why sovereign took the actions he did as they are still a mystery for the most part.

[nel e nel]

Sa3vis wrote...

nel e nel wrote...
Yeah, they never did explain why they chose the Citadel as the location for the other node of the conduit. As for the reapers leaving it alone, I got the impression that the reapers just took care of exterminating sapient life, and left the cleanup on the citadel afterwards to the keepers. I mean, could you imagine Sovereign trying to pick up that tiny relay with his 'fingers'? It'd be like trying to pick up a pin off the floor with gloves on. 

Wasn't the conduit in the Citadel what the Reapers built to summon there forces? I just thought that the remaining Protheans just linked their prototype to it. So many questions but I wouldn't say major plot hole because it wasn't investigating why sovereign took the actions he did as they are still a mystery for the most part.

I can see how it is easy to get that mixed up, but my impression is that there are technically two mass relays. The Citadel itself as a whole is one ginormous relay linked to the Reaper's Dark Space, and then the monument is the Prothean prototype, one-way relay. So the monument is a relay-within-a-relay if you will. 

[Zaxares]

One other possibility is that the Citadel's end of the Conduit wasn't originally in the spot where we see it now; it may have been located in some off-the-path storage room or laboratory that the Reapers couldn't get into (they're so freaking HUGE, after all).



Later, after the Asari/Salarians discovered the Citadel, they also found the Conduit statue during their explorations and went "Cool! A nifty Prothean statue! Let's put it where everybody can see it and marvel at it!" The same kind of way that we humans go around digging up archaelogical artifacts and putting them in museums.

[Big_Belly_Bob]

It's a good point which to be honest I hadn't even thought about because by the time that I had found out what the conduit was it didn't even cross my mind that Saren had access to the citadel at the beginning. However Saren was researching ways to resist the control Sovereign I can't remember all the convo's that I had with Saren in detail but maybe to begin with he thought he could stop the reapers, the mission on eaden prime was meant to be intelligence gathering from Sarens perspective i.e. trying to find what the reapers were after or if this conduit could be used against them but by the time he's fully turned and knows what's going on his specter status has been removed.... I don't know, not fully convinced about that and I'm thinking it had more to do with Saran not being able to get to the terminal in the council room with out an armed squad.

[Foe Paw]

On the monument relay not being detected by the reapers:



Seeing as how the Protheans were actively working on a mass relay network of their own prior to the invasion, the Citadel monument relay could have been installed prior to the Reapers attack. The technology was on the cusp of working, as explained by Vigil, but not yet functional. Thus it was ignored by the Reapers.



It was only after the Reapers retreated into dark space and life support on the most crucial staff was about to fail did the 10-20 remaining protheans come out of stasis. They redoubled efforts, made the Ilos end of the conduit system functional, and it is a system as it takes two relays to work, and sped off to the Citadel to mess with the Keepers. Again, this is all confirmed by Vigil.



So really there was nothing for the Reapers 50000 years ago to notice. The Citadel end of the Conduit was just a mass relay statue, something that fit in with the culture at the time. Once it became active, once the Ilos end locked on or whatever, sure the Reapers probably noticed it. After all it is their tech but would they know where it connected to? Ilos is a loooong ways away and I seriously doubt the Reapers are all powerful. Maybe thats WHY they're searching for it?



What make me curious is why the scientists on the Citadel and beyond don't study the monument relay to understand the tech behind it. It's a dumbed down functional piece of tech that catapulted ALL races forward. Furthermore it's in the proverbial backyard. And if the council doesn't believe me, my truck is parked on the embassy steps. Joker and the entire Arcturus fleet can confirm that I didn't have the Normandy drop me off....