190 réponses à ce sujet

[DaeJi]

deimosmasque wrote...

The point is, sometimes, you can't control the sexual preference or even the motivations of characters after they are made.

People change. If you told me back in 2007 that Liara would get a lot crueler, Tali would work with a Geth, Shepard would work with Cerberus, Anderson would hide something from you, etc. I would have said that they wouldn't because it wouldn't fit the characters. I know a bit better now, both in regards to the game and writing. In the hands of a good writer, and BioWare has a stable of them, no character is set in stone.

[DaeJi]

Twitchmonkey wrote...
Obviously this is true, but I just don't think deciding that a character is gay and then basing their personality around that is good character design.

Why would anyone base a character's personality around their sexual orientation? While it may seem interesting, it's really not. How people react to love is far more compelling, be it gay or straight.

[Twitchmonkey]

DaeJi wrote...

People change. If you told me back in 2007 that Liara would get a lot crueler, Tali would work with a Geth, Shepard would work with Cerberus, Anderson would hide something from you, etc. I would have said that they wouldn't because it wouldn't fit the characters. I know a bit better now, both in regards to the game and writing. In the hands of a good writer, and BioWare has a stable of them, no character is set in stone.

Yes, but just because they change doesn't mean they end up gay. Deciding that something needs to happen and then forcing that plot element into a character because you're thinking about elements first and characters second is not good character development.

Why would anyone base a character's personality around their sexual
orientation? While it may seem interesting, it's really not. How people
react to love is far more compelling, be it gay or straight.

I agree. You shouldn't develop a character that way and they didn't. You need to start with those important building blocks, ideology, morality, temperment, and then build your character from there. If they end up gay then fine, if they don't then that's fine too. It's not being honest to your character design if you determine that they need to be a certain way because you need a character that fulfills a certain necessity.

Modifié par Twitchmonkey, 05 février 2010 - 11:06 .

[DaeJi]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

Yes, but just because they change doesn't mean they end up gay. Deciding that something needs to happen and then forcing that plot element into a character because you're thinking about elements first and characters second is not good character development.

Garrus is my go to example. In the first game he wasn't attracted to humans. Hell, in the second game he still isn't attracted to humans. But he's attracted to Shepard. As far as plot elements, again these characters are what BioWare makes them. Believe it or not, if they decide to make any of them bi it would not change the character at all, just some of Shepard's interactions with them. That's right, the only character would change is the one you control and shape to your own desires.

[WilliamShatner]

Maybe they were having an affair. :-)



Even if it isn't anything sexual I would still like to see Female Shepard be able to have that bond with Tali. But I honestly don't thin Tali is the type of person who is hung up on gender. Frankly if a person can love someone of an alien species I don't think gender will be that much of an issue.



I would like it that you can express you feelings for your teammates and if they reject you so be it. You can do that with Samara.

[deimosmasque]

DaeJi wrote...
People change. If you told me back in 2007 that Liara would get a lot crueler, Tali would work with a Geth, Shepard would work with Cerberus, Anderson would hide something from you, etc. I would have said that they wouldn't because it wouldn't fit the characters. I know a bit better now, both in regards to the game and writing. In the hands of a good writer, and BioWare has a stable of them, no character is set in stone.

That is definately a good point, but people don't change in a month.  Tali took years to find that she was actually in love with Shepard.  Liara's change wasn't overnight either.  And even Garrus took a year before he started to beat people to death with the stick up his butt.
A change during the course of the game would have felt... forced.  A change later... not so much.

Who knows it might take Tali two more years to reconcile her lesbian feelings for the femshep.  Or Garrus to realize he's okay with a bit of guy love.  But to have them suddenly switch personalities in the middle of the game might have been bad.

[Twitchmonkey]

DaeJi wrote...

Garrus is my go to example. In the first game he wasn't attracted to humans. Hell, in the second game he still isn't attracted to humans. But he's attracted to Shepard. As far as plot elements, again these characters are what BioWare makes them. Believe it or not, if they decide to make any of them bi it would not change the character at all, just some of Shepard's interactions with them. That's right, the only character would change is the one you control and shape to your own desires.

Making Garrus attracted to Shepard very much did change his character. There is that whole aspect about how he isn't normally attracted to humans, but he is attracted to Shepard. That defines his character just as much as making him gay or bi would define his character. Everything Garrus is makes Garrus what he is, and if he was gay he would in that way be different.

Maybe they were having an affair. :-)



Even if it isn't
anything sexual I would still like to see Female Shepard be able to
have that bond with Tali. But I honestly don't thin Tali is the type of
person who is hung up on gender. Frankly if a person can love someone
of an alien species I don't think gender will be that much of an issue.

I don't think not wanting to pursue a romance with you means she is necessarily hung up on gender, though that may be factor, she may just not be physically attracted to women, even if she is emotionally attracted to you.

I would like it that you can express you feelings for
your teammates and if they reject you so be it. You can do that with
Samara.

I suppose that's fair.

Modifié par Twitchmonkey, 05 février 2010 - 11:12 .

[DaeJi]

deimosmasque wrote...

That is definately a good point, but people don't change in a month.  Tali took years to find that she was actually in love with Shepard.  Liara's change wasn't overnight either.  And even Garrus took a year before he started to beat people to death with the stick up his butt.
A change during the course of the game would have felt... forced.  A change later... not so much.

You're looking at this in the wrong way; the change as you say would have been made over the two years since Shepard died. Because that is how it would have been presented in the game. It would be a sudden change for us, the players in the real world, but in the game world it would have been a long, thought out process.

[Kolaris8472]

deimosmasque wrote...

DaeJi wrote...
People change. If you told me back in 2007 that Liara would get a lot crueler, Tali would work with a Geth, Shepard would work with Cerberus, Anderson would hide something from you, etc. I would have said that they wouldn't because it wouldn't fit the characters. I know a bit better now, both in regards to the game and writing. In the hands of a good writer, and BioWare has a stable of them, no character is set in stone.

That is definately a good point, but people don't change in a month.  Tali took years to find that she was actually in love with Shepard.  Liara's change wasn't overnight either.  And even Garrus took a year before he started to beat people to death with the stick up his butt.
A change during the course of the game would have felt... forced.  A change later... not so much.

Who knows it might take Tali two more years to reconcile her lesbian feelings for the femshep.  Or Garrus to realize he's okay with a bit of guy love.  But to have them suddenly switch personalities in the middle of the game might have been bad.

How exactly would they be changing personalities in the middle of the game? The interaction between Tali and Shephard, whether male or female, is exactly the same up until the romance begins with Males, at which point female's can't even talk to her despite being just as close. 

[Llandaryn]

Vigor Mortivore wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

For Femsheps, in order to get the Paramour achievement you need to romance Thane, Garrus, or Jacob.

So no gay relationships in this ultra modern game huh?
FOX couldn't handle the truth...

I'm all for equality but there comes a point when trying to cater to the whims of every single group, regardless of their race, gender or sexual preference, begins to compromise your story (and the ME2 story is un-polished enough as it is).

I would have been happy with half as many romance options if it meant improving other aspects of the game, such as inter-party banter or story-line. Then again, I seem to be in the strange minority that considers romances a bonus in a game, not a mandatory part of them. Growing up playing Asteroids will do that to you. Hell, in many old adventure games, you're forced into a single relationship with the opposite-gender character. I wonder how kids today would cope with this lack of freedom of choice. Probably have an anuerism or something.

[OrionUnas]

I'm all for equality but there comes a point when trying to cater to the whims of every single group, regardless of their race, gender or sexual preference, begins to compromise your story (and the ME2 story is un-polished enough as it is).

I would have been happy with half as many romance options if it meant improving other aspects of the game, such as inter-party banter or story-line. Then again, I seem to be in the strange minority that considers romances a bonus in a game, not a mandatory part of them. Growing up playing Asteroids will do that to you. Hell, in many old adventure games, you're forced into a single relationship with the opposite-gender character. I wonder how kids today would cope with this lack of freedom of choice. Probably have an anuerism or something.

Well, let me say that the first time I played DA:O, i played a female, and got it OHN with my minx like bard.  I wanted my cold hearted... what was the word they often called her in diologue choices... oh yeah... ****.  But she wasn't into the ladies, which was fine I guess.  Played a male character and got all the halarious jealousy comments between the two.  Awesome.

However, I desperetly wanted a femshep relationship with Tali, and I was very dissapointed I didn't get one.  I recently just got up to the point, and my Paramour acheivment was with Miranada, on my second playthrough with a malshep.  My female character likes the ladies, has no interest in Jacob, and his stupid problems, thane doesn't do it for her, and well Garrius... he's got reach, but i'm not that flexable, (she is... not me though.)

I'm dissapointed in ME2 that you can't femshep Tali, or even Miranda... or Jack... although I don't find Jack that appealing in my ME2 experience.  I like her character, i just don't see me persueing a rough times on bridgemount high with her.

Point of this thread is not to discuss the complexity of character develupment, but the fact we are dissapointed in the lack of female on female lovin's.  About 80% of the lines in game are non gender specific, so it isn't that difficult to have them lovin' the femshep.

I remember those classic adventure games, and it was right as the quote says, only opposet sex seduction, and that always made me upset.  the point of vid games is to do what you can't do in real life, get the girl!

[AngryTigerP]

Sometimes, you'll have feelings for someone, and they just don't return them. It's quite simple, really.



No matter how hard I try, if I were gay and I hit on a straight guy, he wouldn't respond positively to my advances. Would that entitle me to start complaining to all my friends about how he should return my feelings, and getting angry at him because that's the way he is? No.



It's the same thing here.

[Twitchmonkey]

AngryTigerP wrote...

Sometimes, you'll have feelings for someone, and they just don't return them. It's quite simple, really.

No matter how hard I try, if I were gay and I hit on a straight guy, he wouldn't respond positively to my advances. Would that entitle me to start complaining to all my friends about how he should return my feelings, and getting angry at him because that's the way he is? No.

It's the same thing here.

Right. It's not a technical issue. It's not a matter of whether the dialouge could be reused, it's a matter of whether it should be.

[DaeJi]

AngryTigerP wrote...

Sometimes, you'll have feelings for someone, and they just don't return them. It's quite simple, really.

No matter how hard I try, if I were gay and I hit on a straight guy, he wouldn't respond positively to my advances. Would that entitle me to start complaining to all my friends about how he should return my feelings, and getting angry at him because that's the way he is? No.

It's the same thing here.

You're looking at these characters as they are constants. They are not. Their personality, romantic interests, etc. are what BioWare wants them to, and they can change when BioWare wants them too. Especially a small change like sexual orientation which would not alter the character, only Shepard.

[Twitchmonkey]

DaeJi wrote...

You're looking at these characters as they are constants. They are not. Their personality, romantic interests, etc. are what BioWare wants them to, and they can change when BioWare wants them too. Especially a small change like sexual orientation which would not alter the character, only Shepard.

But it would though, that's the thing. What makes me what I am is the combination of everything I feel, believe, my skills, my appearance, everything.

Yes, BW could decide that one of these characters was gay and they would be gay, no one is arguing that. The debate is whether it makes sense to make a character gay just because people are calling for gay characters and not because it makes sense for them or contributes to their character.

[JMKnave]

Actually you can get the Paramour achievement with Kelly Chambers. You just can't romance anyone else while you chase her and you have to bring her back alive after the crew is taken.

[Llandaryn]

AngryTigerP wrote...

Sometimes, you'll have feelings for someone, and they just don't return them. It's quite simple, really.

No matter how hard I try, if I were gay and I hit on a straight guy, he wouldn't respond positively to my advances. Would that entitle me to start complaining to all my friends about how he should return my feelings, and getting angry at him because that's the way he is? No.

It's the same thing here.

What he said. That's just the way life is.

[jidnis]

Vigor Mortivore wrote...

Does it make any sense starting a new game with a female shepard and hoping for a romance with a crewmember of the same sex or is the Paramour achievement only obtainable for male characters?

Also what's the use of all that flirting with Kelly Chambers?

You can have a pseudo relationship with Samarah as femshep - but she rebuffs your repeated attempts to seduce her.  It was actually a very emotional part of the ME2 experience for me.

Even though it is a non-romance, I actually think it is the most realistic and expressive of all the ME2 relationships.  I think a lot of people can identify with being told "no" to a person they treasured.

[AngryTigerP]

DaeJi wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

Sometimes, you'll have feelings for someone, and they just don't return them. It's quite simple, really.

No matter how hard I try, if I were gay and I hit on a straight guy, he wouldn't respond positively to my advances. Would that entitle me to start complaining to all my friends about how he should return my feelings, and getting angry at him because that's the way he is? No.

It's the same thing here.

You're looking at these characters as they are constants. They are not. Their personality, romantic interests, etc. are what BioWare wants them to, and they can change when BioWare wants them too. Especially a small change like sexual orientation which would not alter the character, only Shepard.

You're right, it is what Bioware wants (or more accurately, decided). Accordingly, they decided that these characters are straight. I'm afraid I really don't understand how this is a hard concept to grasp. Bioware didn't include any same-sex romances, and that's a pity. But these characters are assuredly straight in the game Mass Effect 2, and if you are really any kind of RPer, especially with ME's style of throwing decisions at you with little warning, you will accept that the situation -- that of characters not sharing your sexuality -- is beyond your control. That's all.

[DaeJi]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

 The debate is whether it makes sense to make a character gay just because people are calling for gay characters and not because it makes sense for them or contributes to their character.

BioWare made Tali and Garrus romance options because the fans wanted it, and they did it without altering what really made those characters (their personalities). Did it make sense to change those characters to falling in love with Shepard? Does now.

[DaeJi]

AngryTigerP wrote...

You're right, it is what Bioware wants (or more accurately, decided). Accordingly, they decided that these characters are straight. I'm afraid I really don't understand how this is a hard concept to grasp. Bioware didn't include any same-sex romances, and that's a pity. But these characters are assuredly straight in the game Mass Effect 2, and if you are really any kind of RPer, especially with ME's style of throwing decisions at you with little warning, you will accept that the situation -- that of characters not sharing your sexuality -- is beyond your control. That's all.

BioWare decided that Garrus and Tali did not have an interest in Shepard. That changed in Mass Effect 2. The only difference with that and what we want is that we would like to see the change happen now, as opposed to in an expansion or Mass Effect 3.

Let me ask you a question: Would you mind if in Mass Effect 3, BioWare decided that Tali was bi?

Modifié par DaeJi, 06 février 2010 - 12:40 .

[Twitchmonkey]

DaeJi wrote...
BioWare made Tali and Garrus romance options because the fans wanted it, and they did it without altering what really made those characters (their personalities). Did it make sense to change those characters to falling in love with Shepard? Does now.

I disagree that it didn't alter their personalities. Being able to romance Tali matured her character, made her come off as an adult than in ME1 were she seemed less mature. Garrus' romance options and his willingness to romance Shepard, a human, tells you something about his mindset. These are not changes without impact, if they were, they wouldn't be worth making. A debate can be have about whether these romances helped or hurt the characters, but they were not without their effects. You can't just graft a certain attribute on to a character and not have it change the trajectory of their development in some way.

To just do this haphazardly is not the proper approach.

[Kolaris8472]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

You're looking at these characters as they are constants. They are not. Their personality, romantic interests, etc. are what BioWare wants them to, and they can change when BioWare wants them too. Especially a small change like sexual orientation which would not alter the character, only Shepard.

But it would though, that's the thing. What makes me what I am is the combination of everything I feel, believe, my skills, my appearance, everything.

Yes, BW could decide that one of these characters was gay and they would be gay, no one is arguing that. The debate is whether it makes sense to make a character gay just because people are calling for gay characters and not because it makes sense for them or contributes to their character.

Which ones are you thinking of specifically? I can't think of any explicit reasons we know of for any of the characters to reject advances from their opposite number. Right now we're arguing solely on the implicit evidence that nothing happened, and you can't exactly point to or prove a negative in this case. 

[AngryTigerP]

DaeJi wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

You're right, it is what Bioware wants (or more accurately, decided). Accordingly, they decided that these characters are straight. I'm afraid I really don't understand how this is a hard concept to grasp. Bioware didn't include any same-sex romances, and that's a pity. But these characters are assuredly straight in the game Mass Effect 2, and if you are really any kind of RPer, especially with ME's style of throwing decisions at you with little warning, you will accept that the situation -- that of characters not sharing your sexuality -- is beyond your control. That's all.

BioWare decided that Garrus and Tali did not have an interest in Shepard. That changed in Mass Effect 2. The only difference with that and what we want is that we would like to see the change happen now, as opposed to in an expansion or Mass Effect 3.

Let me ask you a question: Would you mind if in Mass Effect 3, BioWare decided that Tali was bi?

Potentially. If they can come up with a really good reason why she suddenly develops physically romantic feelings with a female where none previously existed (I really don't care about what you perceive from conversations, no romance track = no romance, other than platonic), that's fine. If she's the only one that does this out of all the other characters, I will have an issue. How does she change so suddenly? And before you go "OMG TALI AND GARRUS", they both have several months of experience with you and grew to be your friends at the least, and with Tali at least, she was MEANT to be a romance. So fan demand should not equal inclusion (and no, I'm not really sure I like the Garrus romance, but only because of the fact that it was so apparently fan-contrived.)

[Kolaris8472]

AngryTigerP wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

You're right, it is what Bioware wants (or more accurately, decided). Accordingly, they decided that these characters are straight. I'm afraid I really don't understand how this is a hard concept to grasp. Bioware didn't include any same-sex romances, and that's a pity. But these characters are assuredly straight in the game Mass Effect 2, and if you are really any kind of RPer, especially with ME's style of throwing decisions at you with little warning, you will accept that the situation -- that of characters not sharing your sexuality -- is beyond your control. That's all.

BioWare decided that Garrus and Tali did not have an interest in Shepard. That changed in Mass Effect 2. The only difference with that and what we want is that we would like to see the change happen now, as opposed to in an expansion or Mass Effect 3.

Let me ask you a question: Would you mind if in Mass Effect 3, BioWare decided that Tali was bi?

Potentially. If they can come up with a really good reason why she suddenly develops physically romantic feelings with a female where none previously existed (I really don't care about what you perceive from conversations, no romance track = no romance, other than platonic), that's fine. If she's the only one that does this out of all the other characters, I will have an issue. How does she change so suddenly? And before you go "OMG TALI AND GARRUS", they both have several months of experience with you and grew to be your friends at the least, and with Tali at least, she was MEANT to be a romance. So fan demand should not equal inclusion (and no, I'm not really sure I like the Garrus romance, but only because of the fact that it was so apparently fan-contrived.)

Excuse me, what? You were perfectly fine with Tali "brooding" over her interest with Shephard in the first game, then over the period of a few weeks after meeting a back-from-the-dead Shephard she's in his arms. 

So if I'm to assume correctly, you would have argued against a Tali romance period in ME2 because there was no spark in 1. No romance previously existed. 

There's an even larger spark, much more intimacy between Tali/Femshep in 2 than there was with either gender in 1, but you'd be strictly against her muling over her feelings for another game?