190 réponses à ce sujet

[Twitchmonkey]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
Which ones are you thinking of specifically? I can't think of any explicit reasons we know of for any of the characters to reject advances from their opposite number. Right now we're arguing solely on the implicit evidence that nothing happened, and you can't exactly point to or prove a negative in this case. 

Well, I think we have a fair indication that none of the characters are, during the events of ME2, homosexual, at least in no way that would result in a LI, or else they would become one. Whether BW should make this different in ME3 is up to them, it's going to depend upon how they deal with making this change. I have no issue with any characters becoming any sexual orientation, but it should be a natural change that makes sense, not just something forced because a gay character is needed.

[wepeel_]

Honestly it's refreshing to see them ease down on the amount of bisexual women. I sympathize with the few actual lesbian or bisexual female gamers in that regard; but it seems 99% of the people whining are average straight guys who feel the need to be (lesbian) females in all their games.

[AngryTigerP]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

You're right, it is what Bioware wants (or more accurately, decided). Accordingly, they decided that these characters are straight. I'm afraid I really don't understand how this is a hard concept to grasp. Bioware didn't include any same-sex romances, and that's a pity. But these characters are assuredly straight in the game Mass Effect 2, and if you are really any kind of RPer, especially with ME's style of throwing decisions at you with little warning, you will accept that the situation -- that of characters not sharing your sexuality -- is beyond your control. That's all.

BioWare decided that Garrus and Tali did not have an interest in Shepard. That changed in Mass Effect 2. The only difference with that and what we want is that we would like to see the change happen now, as opposed to in an expansion or Mass Effect 3.

Let me ask you a question: Would you mind if in Mass Effect 3, BioWare decided that Tali was bi?

Potentially. If they can come up with a really good reason why she suddenly develops physically romantic feelings with a female where none previously existed (I really don't care about what you perceive from conversations, no romance track = no romance, other than platonic), that's fine. If she's the only one that does this out of all the other characters, I will have an issue. How does she change so suddenly? And before you go "OMG TALI AND GARRUS", they both have several months of experience with you and grew to be your friends at the least, and with Tali at least, she was MEANT to be a romance. So fan demand should not equal inclusion (and no, I'm not really sure I like the Garrus romance, but only because of the fact that it was so apparently fan-contrived.)

Excuse me, what? You were perfectly fine with Tali "brooding" over her interest with Shephard in the first game, then over the period of a few weeks after meeting a back-from-the-dead Shephard she's in his arms. 

So if I'm to assume correctly, you would have argued against a Tali romance period in ME2 because there was no spark in 1. No romance previously existed. 

There's an even larger spark, much more intimacy between Tali/Femshep in 2 than there was with either gender in 1, but you'd be strictly against her muling over her feelings for another game? 

I said potentially.

The story of crush developing to romance makes sense. I say AGAIN, if they can come up with a good reason why there was never a physical relationship in ME2, then so be it.

EDIT: And there was no reason for Tali to admit her feelings in the first, as she might have just thought they were infatuation and/or that, well, as a crush, they were unrequited.

Modifié par AngryTigerP, 06 février 2010 - 12:53 .

[Taritu]

It really wouldn't be that hard to make some of them Bi, and no, it wouldn't change their personalities all that noticeably. Other than going for the other sex, explain what other impact it would have on each character to be bi? Would Garrus be less of a vigilante badass? Would Miranda be less of an ice queen? Would Thane be less of a philosophical assassin with regrets?



This whole argument misunderstands how character development occurs.



Meta-wise, Bioware decided not to do gay romances. We don't know why, but given that some of the dialogue was recorded, it seems likely to be a business decision--either that finishing them up cost too much money (that seems unlikely) or that they didn't want to risk the publicity.



My guess would be that the corporate suits told the writers/designers to drop it. That's my experience of how risk averse corporate decisions are made.



That is, of course, just a guess, and I could be wrong. But it jives with my experience.



In any case, I think it's a pity A lot of people would have been made happy if they'd been in the game.



All the RP stuff in this thread is just bunk.

[deimosmasque]

DaeJi wrote...

You're looking at this in the wrong way; the change as you say would have been made over the two years since Shepard died. Because that is how it would have been presented in the game. It would be a sudden change for us, the players in the real world, but in the game world it would have been a long, thought out process.

Good point, and I want to point out I 'm on your side in a way.  Hell I just joined the group in you sig.  I do think that they kind of shorted us with Tali and Thane and even Jack (who admits to some same-sex relationships.)  Your right for us it hasn't been two years.  Actually that's where I think alot of the old LI hate comes from, people don't consider that in two years people change.  

I just think that I understand that sometimes, a character is a character.  They aren't sex-bots or even our perfect relationships.   Heck in my current femshep I wasn't going to cheat on Liara, now her character is telling me that Thane might be a  romantic choice.  I don't know if I want to do it because she was me "stay loyal'  character but now... I'm not sure.

But to get back on topic.  Assume the fact that ME2 is only a few months (at most) of real-life time... People don't make such major changes, such as changes in their sexuality in that time.  I'm pansexual myself so I get the idea that anything can become attractive.  But not everyone is that way, nor should the be.  I liked the fact that Tali and Garrus were new love interests because to me it fit as character development .  Tali has been trying to resolve her feelings for two years, Garrus respects you more than anyone else in the galaxy.  But in ME1 both relationships would have felt forced.

Maybe that's what is needed.  In ME3, Miranda or Jack or Jacob or Thane or any of them really have decided that their attaction to Shepard is more than just his/hers leadership abilities.

[Kolaris8472]

 But you think her reasons for shedding her suit for ME2 Male Shephards is compelling? I didn't feel there was a compelling reason either, but its going to adversely affect the Femshep/Tali relationship even if you aren't trying to romance her. 

[DaeJi]

wepeel_ wrote...

Honestly it's refreshing to see them ease down on the amount of bisexual women. I sympathize with the few actual lesbian or bisexual female gamers in that regard; but it seems 99% of the people whining are average straight guys who feel the need to be (lesbian) females in all their games.

Not just bi women, bi men as well. In both games there is some female-female content, but men got nothing but straight. There should be m/m romance as well.

[jlb524]

wepeel_ wrote...

Honestly it's refreshing to see them ease down on the amount of bisexual women. I sympathize with the few actual lesbian or bisexual female gamers in that regard; but it seems 99% of the people whining are average straight guys who feel the need to be (lesbian) females in all their games.

So?  If they want to further screw over straight dudes, they should cut out relationships with heterosexual females as well. 

I don't really get your point.

[Twitchmonkey]

DaeJi wrote...

Not just bi women, bi men as well. In both games there is some female-female content, but men got nothing but straight. There should be m/m romance as well.

While I still think that they should focus on the natural construction of a chracter from those building blocks through to the details, I would like to see a m/m option as well. If BW doesn't feel that fits with any of the characters in ME3 though, then I'll respect that.

[wepeel_]

jlb524 wrote...

So?  If they want to further screw over straight dudes, they should cut out relationships with heterosexual females as well. 

I don't really get your point.

Including relationships with heterosexual females would seem like the intuitive way of catering to the straight dudes -- it just doesn't hit the mark 100% of the time because of the fascination some male gamers have with playing females.

[Caz Neerg]

Given that Asari are mono-gendered, there actually wasn't a lesbian relationship in ME1 either. Technically Liara isn't a woman, since that is a term of distinction used for dual gendered species. That being said, as some have pointed out, the sexual orientation of a given character should depend on what fits for that character. Assuming that bisexual Quarians exist (which at this point is an unfounded assumption) a female Shepard/Tali romance would be reasonable, because even outside of the romance, it is clear that Tali has deep feelings for Shepard, without regard to gender. However, it is also the case that a deep emotional connection does not necessarily translate to physical attraction, so it is just as reasonable to have Tali be straight.



As for Miranda, I just don't see it fitting the character. At all. And I don't remember the exact dialogue, but I think Jack made it pretty clear that she was just experimenting in the past, not actually bisexual. So regardless of whether it would have been a better design decision to make her bi, at this point she clearly isn't, and it would be BS to retcon the character.



In regard to the males, Thane is the only one written in a way where being bisexual seems even theoretically possible. There is absolutely no "vibe" from Jacob or Garrus to a male Shepard, so trying to shoehorn one in would be pretty blatant ret-conning. As for Thane, he is fairly monotone regardless of gender, so it would be easier to make the change and still seem consistent.

[DaeJi]

Caz Neerg wrote...

Given that Asari are mono-gendered, there actually wasn't a lesbian relationship in ME1 either.

If the Asari were a mono-gendered race that looked like men, would that mean an Asari romance with a male Shepard wouldn't be a gay relationship?

[WilliamShatner]

Asari ARE women. They have one gender and that's female.

[AngryTigerP]

DaeJi wrote...

Caz Neerg wrote...

Given that Asari are mono-gendered, there actually wasn't a lesbian relationship in ME1 either.

If the Asari were a mono-gendered race that looked like men, would that mean an Asari romance with a male Shepard wouldn't be a gay relationship?

Um... I would wager that Caz would say yes?

And perhaps you could stop strawman-ning and address the body of his post? Please and thank you.

[DaeJi]

AngryTigerP wrote...


And perhaps you could stop strawman-ning and address the body of his post? Please and thank you.

That was directed at the notion that because Asari are not really women since they have one gendered. The body of his post desends from that notion, one I completely disagree with. The Asari are women; not having a male equivalent does not change that.

As for the rest his post, same thing, writers decide and any character could be any way they want.

Modifié par DaeJi, 06 février 2010 - 01:25 .

[Caz Neerg]

DaeJi wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...


And perhaps you could stop strawman-ning and address the body of his post? Please and thank you.

That was directed at the notion that because Asari are not really women since they have one gendered. The body of his post desends from that notion, one I completely disagree with. The Asari are women; not having a male equivalent does not change that.

As for the rest his post, same thing, writers decide and any character could be any way they want.

My point wasn't that they couldn't have added bisexual and gay relationships if they wanted to, but that given the manner in which the characters have been developed to this point, most of them could not be presented through DLC or in ME3 in that manner without blatant retconning.  And no, the Asari aren't women.  It is nonsensical to use a term of distinction for a species that has one category.  It is like having a word for "Truth" in the language of a species that is incapable of lying.

[DaeJi]

Caz Neerg wrote...

My point wasn't that they couldn't have added bisexual and gay relationships if they wanted to, but that given the manner in which the characters have been developed to this point, most of them could not be presented through DLC or in ME3 in that manner without blatant retconning.  And no, the Asari aren't women.  It is nonsensical to use a term of distinction for a species that has one category.  It is like having a word for "Truth" in the language of a species that is incapable of lying.

Tali and Garrus romances exist because fans wanted them, not because it was the natural progression for their characters. And it flowed very well; writers of BioWare caliber are able to make it work just fine. As for the Asari, you would be right if they had never come into contact with any species with two genders. However, they have (probably first on their homeworld), and thus the label of "woman" came into being for them, because they now had something to compare too.

Modifié par DaeJi, 06 février 2010 - 01:38 .

[Caz Neerg]

Nothing in Shepard's interactions with Tali or Garrus in ME1 in any way contradicts the possibility of their being attracted to him/her. Tali's interactions with female Shepard in ME2 are completely consistent with the possibility of a future romance. They are also completely consistent with sisterly love. Garrus' interactions with a male Shepard on the other hand, especially given our knowledge of how he reacts to a female Shepard, are in no way consistent with the possibility that the character is bisexual. All I am arguing for is that the integrity of the writing be maintained. If they want to add more romance to already existing characters, the only ones that make even theoretical sense as bisexuals are Thane and Tali. And other than satisfying a niche market, I fail to see any compelling story or character development reasons why it would be necessary to have DLC specifically for that purpose.

[Cutlass Jack]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

Well, I think we have a fair indication that none of the characters are, during the events of ME2, homosexual, at least in no way that would result in a LI, or else they would become one. Whether BW should make this different in ME3 is up to them, it's going to depend upon how they deal with making this change. I have no issue with any characters becoming any sexual orientation, but it should be a natural change that makes sense, not just something forced because a gay character is needed.

Incorrect. Jack specifically mentioned having Sex with women. So it wouldn't be a stretch to assume she'd have, you know, sex with women.

Anyway this arguement, for the most part, is silly in the context of Mass Effect. If someone cared enough about Shepard to be willing to cross the alien race boundary (say human/quarian/turian/whatever) then crossing the sex boundary is almost meaningless in comparison to that.

[Twitchmonkey]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
Incorrect. Jack specifically mentioned having Sex with women. So it wouldn't be a stretch to assume she'd have, you know, sex with women.

That's why I said that no one was homosexual, at least not in a way that would give rise to an LI. Despite Jack's history of lesbian behavior, we're given no indication that she is interested in Shepard. Will she be in ME3, possibly. I wouldn't put it past her.

Anyway this arguement, for the most part, is silly in the context of Mass Effect. If someone cared enough about Shepard to be willing to cross the alien race boundary (say human/quarian/turian/whatever) then crossing the sex boundary is almost meaningless in comparison to that.

That's placing your own value system on someone else, I think quite erroneously. I for one would be fine having sex with an asari or a Twi'lek, but I have no interest in sex with a man, so I think the idea that species is more of a barrier is incorrect.

[DaeJi]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

That's placing your own value system on someone else, I think quite erroneously. I for one would be fine having sex with an asari or a Twi'lek, but I have no interest in sex with a man, so I think the idea that species is more of a barrier is incorrect.

Uh, this is a game. These aren't real people; BioWare should put this content in for no other reason than fans would have fun with it.

[Twitchmonkey]

DaeJi wrote...

Uh, this is a game. These aren't real people; BioWare should put this content in for no other reason than fans would have fun with it.

Do I have to go over this with you again? Yes, this isn't real life, but some people prefer a good story to a bad one. A good story depends on relatable and believable characters. A lot of people, myself included, would be bothered by a change in a character if it wasn't done well and didn't make sense.

[Naltair]

DaeJi wrote...

Twitchmonkey wrote...

That's placing your own value system on someone else, I think quite erroneously. I for one would be fine having sex with an asari or a Twi'lek, but I have no interest in sex with a man, so I think the idea that species is more of a barrier is incorrect.

Uh, this is a game. These aren't real people; BioWare should put this content in for no other reason than fans would have fun with it.

That is not how a good believable story is made though.  They don;t just do things they do things because it's fun, it makes sense, and it deepens their narrative.  I think some people just have to face that there are no same sex relationships this time around.

Modifié par Naltair, 06 février 2010 - 02:17 .

[Naltair]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Uh, this is a game. These aren't real people; BioWare should put this content in for no other reason than fans would have fun with it.

Do I have to go over this with you again? Yes, this isn't real life, but some people prefer a good story to a bad one. A good story depends on relatable and believable characters. A lot of people, myself included, would be bothered by a change in a character if it wasn't done well and didn't make sense.

I agree with you, I think the counterargument just wants what they want and damn the story, give them their romances they want on their terms that to me seems unsettling but if that is your desire continue to fight for it.

[Kolaris8472]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Uh, this is a game. These aren't real people; BioWare should put this content in for no other reason than fans would have fun with it.

Do I have to go over this with you again? Yes, this isn't real life, but some people prefer a good story to a bad one. A good story depends on relatable and believable characters. A lot of people, myself included, would be bothered by a change in a character if it wasn't done well and didn't make sense.

You just said two posts up whether species or gender was a greater barrier was a subjective issue, how would it make 0 sense that for someone other than you (i.e. one of the characters) the species barrier was the greatest hurdle?