190 réponses à ce sujet

[Mystranna Kelteel]

wepeel_ wrote...

Honestly it's refreshing to see them ease down on the amount of bisexual women.

Ease down? They didn't ease down.
Samara, Morinth, Kelly, Shiala, Jack, and Liara in ME2 vs Liara and Sha'ira in ME1.

If you're talking strictly people you can "have sex" with, then it's Kelly and Morinth in ME2 vs Liara and Sha'ira in ME1.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Naltair wrote...

I agree with you, I think the counterargument just wants what they want and damn the story, give them their romances they want on their terms that to me seems unsettling but if that is your desire continue to fight for it.

They should keep fighting. Just like you will constantly show up and tell them that their desire to have sex with the same gender is a non-believable story aspect.

As I've said before, if I tried a similar approach to a Tali and Garrus romance thread people, probably even you yourself, would complain to no end.

[Naltair]

In Mass Effect it seems pretty obvious that gender roles still play a large part of inter-species sexuality, you see evidence of cross species romances in many places but they usually happen between a male and a female so maybe in your eyes it should not. But in the setting it still seems to play a role, even if that is not realistic that is the setting they have created.

[Twitchmonkey]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
You just said two posts up whether species or gender was a greater barrier was a subjective issue, how would it make 0 sense that for someone other than you (i.e. one of the characters) the species barrier was the greatest hurdle? 

How is this relevant to my post? I'm quite confused as to what you're proposing. What I said was that gender is not necessarily the greatest hurdle. The proposition I was responding to is that if the party member was willing to romance another species, then they should automatically have no issue with romancing another gender.

[Caz Neerg]

The most reasonable way to address this issue would be to add new characters, complete with recruitment and loyalty missions, who happen to include same sex romance options. That way the integrity of the writing is preserved, and DLC is provided that satisfies the niche market while also providing value to the mass market.

[Naltair]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Naltair wrote...

I agree with you, I think the counterargument just wants what they want and damn the story, give them their romances they want on their terms that to me seems unsettling but if that is your desire continue to fight for it.

They should keep fighting. Just like you will constantly show up and tell them that their desire to have sex with the same gender is a non-believable story aspect.

As I've said before, if I tried a similar approach to a Tali and Garrus romance thread people, probably even you yourself, would complain to no end.

I have no problem with same-sex relationships just the inclination that blank character should be gay because I am gay, or because I like playing this Shepard so give me that relationship but I am the wrong gender.  Gender choice should still mean something.

[Naltair]

Caz Neerg wrote...

The most reasonable way to address this issue would be to add new characters, complete with recruitment and loyalty missions, who happen to include same sex romance options. That way the integrity of the writing is preserved, and DLC is provided that satisfies the niche market while also providing value to the mass market.

I provided this solution before but some people have their heart set on already defined characters.

[DaeJi]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

Do I have to go over this with you
again? Yes, this isn't real life, but some people prefer a good story
to a bad one. A good story depends on relatable and believable
characters. A lot of people, myself included, would be bothered by a
change in a character if it wasn't done well and didn't make sense.

As a DLC, which it would have to be at this point, would allow those who want it to have it and those who do want it to not have to deal with it. Plus, these characters can will change in Mass Effect 3. That may include making some of them attracted to the same sex. Again, Garrus and Tali were put into this game to please the fans because it made the game fun for them.

Naltair wrote...


That is not how a good believable story is made though.  They don;t just do things they do things because it's fun, it makes sense, and it deepens their narrative.  I think some people just have to face that there are no same sex relationships this time around.

No, as a video game company they do things that are fun. In an RPG, a lot of the fun comes from the story hense why they work so hard on it. Romance is a fun part of BioWare's games, and they made two romance in Mass Effect 2 just because it was fun for the fans. Fun is the beginning and end for video games.

[Twitchmonkey]

Naltair wrote...
I have no problem with same-sex relationships just the inclination that blank character should be gay because I am gay, or because I like playing this Shepard so give me that relationship but I am the wrong gender.  Gender choice should still mean something.

The suggestion that there doesn't necessarily have to be homosexual characters is read by some as "I hate gay people and want them oppressed". Unfortunate, but true.

As a DLC, which it would have to be at this point, would allow those
who want it to have it and those who do want it to not have to deal
with it. Plus, these characters can will change in Mass Effect 3. That
may include making some of them attracted to the same sex. Again,
Garrus and Tali were put into this game to please the fans because it
made the game fun for them.

Making this DLC would not make it any better. It would still be a matter of deciding that a character needs to be gay/bi and then building a character around that, which is just not how you build a good character. If they ended up being this way then fine, but you're still failing to comprehend the basics of what I'm saying.

Modifié par Twitchmonkey, 06 février 2010 - 02:30 .

[Caz Neerg]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

wepeel_ wrote...

Honestly it's refreshing to see them ease down on the amount of bisexual women.

Ease down? They didn't ease down.
Samara, Morinth, Kelly, Shiala, Jack, and Liara in ME2 vs Liara and Sha'ira in ME1.

If you're talking strictly people you can "have sex" with, then it's Kelly and Morinth in ME2 vs Liara and Sha'ira in ME1.

The only bisexual women on that list are Kelly and *maybe* Jack.  It is silly to refer to Asari as bisexual, or women, given that they can reproduce with any sentient, and don't have to have anything a human would recognize as sex in order to do it.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Naltair wrote...

I have no problem with same-sex relationships just the inclination that blank character should be gay because I am gay, or because I like playing this Shepard so give me that relationship but I am the wrong gender.  Gender choice should still mean something.

Why?

If species doesn't mean anything, why would gender? It's a much, much bigger leap to believe a human woman can have a sexual relationship with a turian than another human woman.

[DaeJi]

Naltair wrote...
I provided this solution before but some people have their heart set on already defined characters.

Because those romances are already in the game and thus very easy for BioWare to do, where as new characters new all new dialog, the voice actors to come back record a lot of new lines, and new animation to be created. Using existing characters cuts back on a lot of work.

[Twitchmonkey]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Why?

If species doesn't mean anything, why would gender? It's a much, much bigger leap to believe a human woman can have a sexual relationship with a turian than another human woman.

Not being a woman, I can't claim to know their views on homosexual vs interspecies relationships, I just know as a guy, this is definitely not necessarily true, and may in fact may be more often false.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Caz Neerg wrote...

The only bisexual women on that list are Kelly and *maybe* Jack.  It is silly to refer to Asari as bisexual, or women, given that they can reproduce with any sentient, and don't have to have anything a human would recognize as sex in order to do it.

"Woman" is not the right term for an asari, but "female" is. All asari are sexually female.

Bisexual is an applicable term for asari because they have sexual relationships with both genders. It doesn't make a difference to the asari themselves, but from any kind of classification system they are undoubtedly in the bisexual category.

[Naltair]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Naltair wrote...

I have no problem with same-sex relationships just the inclination that blank character should be gay because I am gay, or because I like playing this Shepard so give me that relationship but I am the wrong gender.  Gender choice should still mean something.

Why?

If species doesn't mean anything, why would gender? It's a much, much bigger leap to believe a human woman can have a sexual relationship with a turian than another human woman.

I agree but for some reason in the ME universe it seems that gender seems more of a difference than species, it does not make sense but there seem to be plenty of examples in the game as is that reinforce this.  I have no good reason why, but that is where we are.

Modifié par Naltair, 06 février 2010 - 02:35 .

[Kolaris8472]

Caz Neerg wrote...

The most reasonable way to address this issue would be to add new characters, complete with recruitment and loyalty missions, who happen to include same sex romance options. That way the integrity of the writing is preserved, and DLC is provided that satisfies the niche market while also providing value to the mass market.

Well, (and partly to twichmonkey with this) this would be exactly what I don't want. I don't think there need to be arbitrary same-sex or different-species-same-sex romances, what I'm arguing for is that if the inclusion of a fanservice element like a Tali romance for fans, when it doesn't fit what we know of her character, actually hurts the relationship of Tali with Femsheps (as all her unique or personal dialog will only go into the Romance interest), then it would be better off to make the fanservice universal. 

Add to that that there is no explicit reason for her "rejection" in the first place (all the leading dialog is the same), I would go and say it would have made more sense for Tali to be romanceable either way, even though I wouldn't want to regardless. The relationship is already there, it already made sense (in the past tense). 

[Naltair]

DaeJi wrote...

Naltair wrote...
I provided this solution before but some people have their heart set on already defined characters.

Because those romances are already in the game and thus very easy for BioWare to do, where as new characters new all new dialog, the voice actors to come back record a lot of new lines, and new animation to be created. Using existing characters cuts back on a lot of work.

I don;t think there is a precedent for them ever doing this, retconning existing romances to add new options.  Which leads me to my next question, how do you decide which characters are bisexual, without making them all bisexual?  Just because YOU want Tali or Jack or whatever does not mean that someone else does, they may want Miranda... or Ashley? 

[Caz Neerg]

DaeJi wrote...
No, as a video game company they do things that are fun. In an RPG, a lot of the fun comes from the story hense why they work so hard on it. Romance is a fun part of BioWare's games, and they made two romance in Mass Effect 2 just because it was fun for the fans. Fun is the beginning and end for video games.

It isn't just "fun."  It is art as well as entertainment, and there is such a thing as artistic integrity.  And for those who value artistic integrity, compromising it would decrease the "fun" they get out of the product.  Like I said before, same sex attraction for Tali could be made to work in ME3.  Doing it with Garrus would be like having an X-Men movie where Wolverine and Cyclops hook up.  Just doesn't make sense.  And DLC focused exclusively on adding same sex romance wouldn't make any sense, because it offers no value to the mass market.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Naltair wrote...

I agree but for some reason i the ME universe it seems that gender seems more of a difference than species, it does not make sense but there seem to be plenty of examples in the game as is that reinforce this.  I have no good reason why, but that is where we are.

So, judging by your language usage,  you're completely guessing and assuming.
You don't know the details of different species and their views on homosexuality. And given the asari, who are a powerhouse of F/F relationship representation, homosexuality doesn't seem to be an issue at all.

[DaeJi]

Naltair wrote...

I don;t think there is a precedent for them ever doing this, retconning existing romances to add new options.  Which leads me to my next question, how do you decide which characters are bisexual, without making them all bisexual?  Just because YOU want Tali or Jack or whatever does not mean that someone else does, they may want Miranda... or Ashley? 

One alien, one human per gender in my opinion. It would be BioWare's choice on who to include, just like it's their choice on who to romance period. While a lot of people are asking for specific characters, just having an option, any (real, squad mate) option would be enough.

[Cutlass Jack]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

That's placing your own value system on someone else, I think quite erroneously. I for one would be fine having sex with an asari or a Twi'lek, but I have no interest in sex with a man, so I think the idea that species is more of a barrier is incorrect.

Sorry but you're putting your own value system on everyone else even more erroneously. By your description above, you'd be okay with having sex with aliens with 'girly parts.' Thats a preference, and nothing wrong with that. But you're assuming everyone feels the same way. Yet in the context of what happens in ME2 thats not the case.

Lets look at the Garrus relationship. Turians share nearly nothing physical in common with Humans. To the point I doubt any human female would find Garrus attractive in a physical way. Garrus clearly feels similar about Humans. They do nothing for him physically. There's no indication of either half of the relationship having 'the right parts.'

What makes Garrus interested in the relationship isn't physical, it's mental. He cares a great deal about Shepard and is willing to overcome all the physical oddities between species to give it a shot. In the context of that, the male/female aspect is almost trivial.

The Tali/Shepard relationship is equally mental over physical. She cares about the female shepard nearly as much as the male, and honestly I don't see it a huge stretch to cross that boundary with her. In the context of risking serious illness to be with a vastly different alien race, the male/female line doesn't seem that serious.

Not that I'm really advocating either to be bisexual, just saying It's not really that big an issue in the context of the larger issues involved in both those relationships.

Also, remember Mass Effect is a deeply personalized experience. Which is why opinions vary on certain characters to the point of nearly sounding like people are playing different games. If certain characters were more open in their relationships in one person's playthrough, it wouldn't in any way affect how someone else played the game.

[Naltair]

I am not guessing there is a quarian in a bar talking about her last inter species relationship with a male human, to a turian male who wants to be with her. Just off the top of my head. And asari are a fan service race, I am sorry but I will say this now the same sex relationship, i.e. Liara, in ME1 was put in for men who did not want to romance a male. It just happened that women could enjoy it to.

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Naltair wrote...

I have no problem with same-sex relationships just the inclination that blank character should be gay because I am gay, or because I like playing this Shepard so give me that relationship but I am the wrong gender.  Gender choice should still mean something.

Why?

If species doesn't mean anything, why would gender? It's a much, much bigger leap to believe a human woman can have a sexual relationship with a turian than another human woman.

I agree but for some reason in the ME universe it seems that gender seems more of a difference than species, it does not make sense but there seem to be plenty of examples in the game as is that reinforce this.  I have no good reason why, but that is where we are.

What examples? We only have one as far as I can see, the Turian/Quarian on Ilium. 

[Naltair]

DaeJi wrote...

Naltair wrote...

I don;t think there is a precedent for them ever doing this, retconning existing romances to add new options.  Which leads me to my next question, how do you decide which characters are bisexual, without making them all bisexual?  Just because YOU want Tali or Jack or whatever does not mean that someone else does, they may want Miranda... or Ashley? 

One alien, one human per gender in my opinion. It would be BioWare's choice on who to include, just like it's their choice on who to romance period. While a lot of people are asking for specific characters, just having an option, any (real, squad mate) option would be enough.

So why isn't a new DLC character or characters an option?

[jlb524]

Naltair wrote...

I am not guessing there is a quarian in a bar talking about her last inter species relationship with a male human, to a turian male who wants to be with her. Just off the top of my head. And asari are a fan service race, I am sorry but I will say this now the same sex relationship, i.e. Liara, in ME1 was put in for men who did not want to romance a male. It just happened that women could enjoy it to.

Female quarian/Male human is a fan-service relationship as well.  I wonder why we didn't see it until ME2...