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#101
DaeJi

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Caz Neerg wrote...

It isn't just "fun."  It is art as well as entertainment, and there is such a thing as artistic integrity.  And for those who value artistic integrity, compromising it would decrease the "fun" they get out of the product.  Like I said before, same sex attraction for Tali could be made to work in ME3.  Doing it with Garrus would be like having an X-Men movie where Wolverine and Cyclops hook up.  Just doesn't make sense.  And DLC focused exclusively on adding same sex romance wouldn't make any sense, because it offers no value to the mass market.


So it's okay for fans who want same sex romances to not have as much "fun" as others because having them may decrease another's fun? A DLC (one which would take them hours to do) fixes the problem for all sides. And any DLC release adds value to the mass market, it just depends on how much value and what the company stands to lose if it does not recoup cost.

#102
Caz Neerg

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Kolaris8472 wrote...

Caz Neerg wrote...

The most reasonable way to address this issue would be to add new characters, complete with recruitment and loyalty missions, who happen to include same sex romance options. That way the integrity of the writing is preserved, and DLC is provided that satisfies the niche market while also providing value to the mass market.


Well, (and partly to twichmonkey with this) this would be exactly what I don't want. I don't think there need to be arbitrary same-sex or different-species-same-sex romances, what I'm arguing for is that if the inclusion of a fanservice element like a Tali romance for fans, when it doesn't fit what we know of her character, actually hurts the relationship of Tali with Femsheps (as all her unique or personal dialog will only go into the Romance interest), then it would be better off to make the fanservice universal. 

Add to that that there is no explicit reason for her "rejection" in the first place (all the leading dialog is the same), I would go and say it would have made more sense for Tali to be romanceable either way, even though I wouldn't want to regardless. The relationship is already there, it already made sense (in the past tense). 


This argument could be used to say that *all* romances should be bisexual, which would be far more unrealistic and harmful to the integrity of the story than all of the romances being straight.  It is simple statistics.  Having no bisexual characters in a squad of twelve is believable.  Having every romanceable squad mate go both ways... rather less believable.  Like I said before, the best way to satisfy the desire for same-sex content in a rational way that doesn't compromise believability or choices that have already been made is to add new characters, with the possible exception of Tali, who could probably be made bisexual without hurting the character.  But that really depends on lot on elements of Quarian culture that we just don't know about at this point.

#103
Naltair

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Kolaris8472 wrote...
What examples? We only have one as far as I can see, the Turian/Quarian on Ilium. 

You may be correct I always had the feeling there were other examples if at least by word of mouth, but yes you may be correct there.  I will concede that point it still seems that in the ME universe gender roles are held to pretty firmly despite species, not counting the asari.

#104
DaeJi

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Naltair wrote...
So why isn't a new DLC character or characters an option?


Resources. Using existing characters is cheaper, faster (a LOT faster) and they already have a fanbase built in.

#105
Naltair

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jlb524 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

I am not guessing there is a quarian in a bar talking about her last inter species relationship with a male human, to a turian male who wants to be with her. Just off the top of my head. And asari are a fan service race, I am sorry but I will say this now the same sex relationship, i.e. Liara, in ME1 was put in for men who did not want to romance a male. It just happened that women could enjoy it to.


Female quarian/Male human is a fan-service relationship as well.  I wonder why we didn't see it until ME2...

Simple surprise of the strength of the character, the humans and asari was an obvious choice, an easy dodge for female/female and female/male without actually having a same sex relationship.  The same could be said for Garrus and female Shepard.

#106
Naltair

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DaeJi wrote...

Naltair wrote...
So why isn't a new DLC character or characters an option?


Resources. Using existing characters is cheaper, faster (a LOT faster) and they already have a fanbase built in.

So you want to pay money for recycled assets?

#107
Mystranna Kelteel

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Naltair wrote...

I am not guessing there is a quarian in a bar talking about her last inter species relationship with a male human, to a turian male who wants to be with her. Just off the top of my head. And asari are a fan service race, I am sorry but I will say this now the same sex relationship, i.e. Liara, in ME1 was put in for men who did not want to romance a male. It just happened that women could enjoy it to.


You are guessing, and you can't dismiss the asari as a "fan-service race".

Your arguments have consistently said that you're basing your thoughts on "what's present in the game, whether it's believable or not". Now you're dismissing the entire asari race because it damages your case? Homosexuality is very prominent in ME, mostly F/F due to asari, but it's still there. They're the only alien race with actual female representation aside from quarians.

F/F relationships or flirtations in ME2:
Kelly and female Shepard
Shiala and female Shepard
the matriarch bartender on Illium (she had a pureblood daughter)
Morinth and Nef
Morinth and female Shepard
Samara and female Shepard
Samara and her past partner (she has 3 pureblood daughters)
Liara and female Shepard
the Baria Frontiers rep on Illium (2 pureblood daughters)

And those are just off the top of my head.  Your only possible point is that we don't know the homosexuality views about the other races, but that's just it; it's guesswork. You ahve no real foundation to stand on saying that inter-species romance is more common or more believable than homosexual romance or even inter-species homosexual romance.
You merely delude yourself into thinking it's more believable, probably because you love Tali.

#108
lokikallas

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I pretty much assumed that jack would be bi, and I'd be able to get her with my female renegade character. I guess not?

#109
Caz Neerg

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DaeJi wrote...

Naltair wrote...
So why isn't a new DLC character or characters an option?


Resources. Using existing characters is cheaper, faster (a LOT faster) and they already have a fanbase built in.


Cheaper, faster, less consistent with already established characterizations, lazier, all around less believable, offers zero value to the mass market.

Whereas a new character that includes a same-sex romance option could also include 1-2 new missions, adding as much as 2 hours of new content that everyone can enjoy, rather than maybe ten minutes of content that a tiny fraction of the audience will care about.

#110
jlb524

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Naltair wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

I am not guessing there is a quarian in a bar talking about her last inter species relationship with a male human, to a turian male who wants to be with her. Just off the top of my head. And asari are a fan service race, I am sorry but I will say this now the same sex relationship, i.e. Liara, in ME1 was put in for men who did not want to romance a male. It just happened that women could enjoy it to.


Female quarian/Male human is a fan-service relationship as well.  I wonder why we didn't see it until ME2...

Simple surprise of the strength of the character, the humans and asari was an obvious choice, an easy dodge for female/female and female/male without actually having a same sex relationship.  The same could be said for Garrus and female Shepard.


I agree...Female Shepard/Garrus was fan service as well.

#111
DaeJi

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Naltair wrote...
So you want to pay money for recycled assets?


I don't want to pay. I'm willing to pay. A lot of people are.

#112
Twitchmonkey

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Cutlass Jack wrote...

Sorry but you're putting your own value system on everyone else even more erroneously. By your description above, you'd be okay with having sex with aliens with 'girly parts.' Thats a preference, and nothing wrong with that. But you're assuming everyone feels the same way. Yet in the context of what happens in ME2 thats not the case.

Lets look at the Garrus relationship. Turians share nearly nothing physical in common with Humans. To the point I doubt any human female would find Garrus attractive in a physical way. Garrus clearly feels similar about Humans. They do nothing for him physically. There's no indication of either half of the relationship having 'the right parts.'

What makes Garrus interested in the relationship isn't physical, it's mental. He cares a great deal about Shepard and is willing to overcome all the physical oddities between species to give it a shot. In the context of that, the male/female aspect is almost trivial.

The Tali/Shepard relationship is equally mental over physical. She cares about the female shepard nearly as much as the male, and honestly I don't see it a huge stretch to cross that boundary with her. In the context of risking serious illness to be with a vastly different alien race, the male/female line doesn't seem that serious.

Not that I'm really advocating either to be bisexual, just saying It's not really that big an issue in the context of the larger issues involved in both those relationships.

Also, remember Mass Effect is a deeply personalized experience. Which is why opinions vary on certain characters to the point of nearly sounding like people are playing different games. If certain characters were more open in their relationships in one person's playthrough, it wouldn't in any way affect how someone else played the game.


I'm not putting my value system on anyone, because I'm only speaking for myself and some other hypothetical real life males. I don't really think there is any doubt that there are straight males besides myself that find Twi'Leks attractive, but if you'd like me to rescind that statement then fine, I'm just talking for myself.

Garrus seems to have some issues with the interspecies thing, but ultimately he decides that he is attracted to the female Shepard, this is fine that's his unique value system. I do think that the idea that he would be equally attracted to a human male is not only unsupported, it is a dubious claim. Just as Garrus, even being a Turian, has a masculine body and facial proportions as well as a masculine energy and voice, so does ManShep, that may not be something he finds attractive. If he does, then great, but there is no reason he has to.

Tali doesn't seem bothered by species, but again there is no reason to believe that gender is not an issue. Suit linking does not have to mean there ar any romantic feelings, it just so happens that there are also romantic feelings between her and ManShep.

And a character's sexuality does in some way effect who they are, not only is it unrealistic, it's artistically suspect, as then you are creating characters based on what the fans want, not based on who they are.

#113
Kolaris8472

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Caz Neerg wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Caz Neerg wrote...

The most reasonable way to address this issue would be to add new characters, complete with recruitment and loyalty missions, who happen to include same sex romance options. That way the integrity of the writing is preserved, and DLC is provided that satisfies the niche market while also providing value to the mass market.


Well, (and partly to twichmonkey with this) this would be exactly what I don't want. I don't think there need to be arbitrary same-sex or different-species-same-sex romances, what I'm arguing for is that if the inclusion of a fanservice element like a Tali romance for fans, when it doesn't fit what we know of her character, actually hurts the relationship of Tali with Femsheps (as all her unique or personal dialog will only go into the Romance interest), then it would be better off to make the fanservice universal. 

Add to that that there is no explicit reason for her "rejection" in the first place (all the leading dialog is the same), I would go and say it would have made more sense for Tali to be romanceable either way, even though I wouldn't want to regardless. The relationship is already there, it already made sense (in the past tense). 


This argument could be used to say that *all* romances should be bisexual, which would be far more unrealistic and harmful to the integrity of the story than all of the romances being straight.  It is simple statistics.  Having no bisexual characters in a squad of twelve is believable.  Having every romanceable squad mate go both ways... rather less believable.  Like I said before, the best way to satisfy the desire for same-sex content in a rational way that doesn't compromise believability or choices that have already been made is to add new characters, with the possible exception of Tali, who could probably be made bisexual without hurting the character.  But that really depends on lot on elements of Quarian culture that we just don't know about at this point.


Well Tali was the only character I find it not only believable but probable given the dialog and shared experiences, I apologize if I had poor argumentation. It just seems better to me that when you're messing with a character's backstory anyway, the better solution is win-win rather than win-loss, especially when the 'win' would have no effect on the other playthrough. 

I wouldn't even be bringing it up if it didn't already make sense to me though, I'm against messing with a character for fanservice, but its already been done and its a "lesser-evil" situation for me. 

#114
Naltair

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Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Naltair wrote...

I am not guessing there is a quarian in a bar talking about her last inter species relationship with a male human, to a turian male who wants to be with her. Just off the top of my head. And asari are a fan service race, I am sorry but I will say this now the same sex relationship, i.e. Liara, in ME1 was put in for men who did not want to romance a male. It just happened that women could enjoy it to.


You are guessing, and you can't dismiss the asari as a "fan-service race".

Your arguments have consistently said that you're basing your thoughts on "what's present in the game, whether it's believable or not". Now you're dismissing the entire asari race because it damages your case? Homosexuality is very prominent in ME, mostly F/F due to asari, but it's still there. They're the only alien race with actual female representation aside from quarians.

F/F relationships or flirtations in ME2:
Kelly and female Shepard
Shiala and female Shepard
the matriarch bartender on Illium (she had a pureblood daughter)
Morinth and Nef
Morinth and female Shepard
Samara and female Shepard
Samara and her past partner (she has 3 pureblood daughters)
Liara and female Shepard
the Baria Frontiers rep on Illium (2 pureblood daughters)

And those are just off the top of my head.  Your only possible point is that we don't know the homosexuality views about the other races, but that's just it; it's guesswork. You ahve no real foundation to stand on saying that inter-species romance is more common or more believable than homosexual romance or even inter-species homosexual romance.
You merely delude yourself into thinking it's more believable, probably because you love Tali.

I will concede the point on the examples I was hasty there.

But I won;t concede the point on the asari, they are fan service, they have a real role in the game but their sexual orientation or lack thereof is pure fan service and only probably exists so they had an easy out for a same sex relationship that appeals to the main demographic of the audience.  Young men.

The species is very well fleshed out, but the fact they look exactly like women and happen to be the only same sex choice is pretty clear on their purpose.  Why didn't they make a mono-gendered race that was male and was appealing to both genders?

#115
DaeJi

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Caz Neerg wrote...
Whereas a new character that includes a same-sex romance option could also include 1-2 new missions, adding as much as 2 hours of new content that everyone can enjoy, rather than maybe ten minutes of content that a tiny fraction of the audience will care about.


Same sex fans, completionist, DLC fans, etc. would pay for it. BioWare could do a little bit of work and make their invest several times over. Not to mention the romances are really well done, so much that allowing some of them to be same-sex will not take away from the experience, especially if people who are so dead set against don't have to deal with it.

#116
Naltair

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Twitchmonkey wrote...
Tali doesn't seem bothered by species, but again there is no reason to believe that gender is not an issue. Suit linking does not have to mean there ar any romantic feelings, it just so happens that there are also romantic feelings between her and ManShep.

And a character's sexuality does in some way effect who they are, not only is it unrealistic, it's artistically suspect, as then you are creating characters based on what the fans want, not based on who they are.

Once again I agree, with this and what you said about Garrus.

#117
Naltair

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Caz Neerg wrote...

DaeJi wrote...

Naltair wrote...
So why isn't a new DLC character or characters an option?


Resources. Using existing characters is cheaper, faster (a LOT faster) and they already have a fanbase built in.


Cheaper, faster, less consistent with already established characterizations, lazier, all around less believable, offers zero value to the mass market.

Whereas a new character that includes a same-sex romance option could also include 1-2 new missions, adding as much as 2 hours of new content that everyone can enjoy, rather than maybe ten minutes of content that a tiny fraction of the audience will care about.

Yeah really new character is the better plan than selling people crap they already have for what ten minutes of content?

#118
SimonTheFrog

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I keep reading that Tali has to be gay/bi to fall in love with femShep. That never occurred to me... They just emotionally "click". Attracted by mutual awesomeness... (I keep spending a lot of time in the "facial reconstruction center", that's gotta be worth something).

Anyway, i strongly support that femShep gets a chance to get more flirty/intimate dialog with Tali. If something physical is not ok for some countries (Indonesia, Australia or whatever), heck, anything other than the abrupt looping after a promising start will do...

Just my opinion...

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 06 février 2010 - 03:00 .


#119
Naltair

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DaeJi wrote...

Caz Neerg wrote...
Whereas a new character that includes a same-sex romance option could also include 1-2 new missions, adding as much as 2 hours of new content that everyone can enjoy, rather than maybe ten minutes of content that a tiny fraction of the audience will care about.


Same sex fans, completionist, DLC fans, etc. would pay for it. BioWare could do a little bit of work and make their invest several times over. Not to mention the romances are really well done, so much that allowing some of them to be same-sex will not take away from the experience, especially if people who are so dead set against don't have to deal with it.

Not so much that the audience is smaller, so much as it has no broad base appeal, the return on invest, being time and manpower is just not there.  It's way too niche and again utilizes recycled content people already have, how would you market this to make people think they have to have it?  

#120
Kolaris8472

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Twitchmonkey wrote...
Tali doesn't seem bothered by species, but again there is no reason to believe that gender is not an issue. Suit linking does not have to mean there ar any romantic feelings, it just so happens that there are also romantic feelings between her and ManShep.


"Just so happens" is what gets me. Where did they come from, if not the shared experiences, emotional roles, and psychological link that is, well, arbitrary regardless of whether your Shephard is Paragon or Renegade, that are exactly the same between a Male and Female Shephard? The best explanation is that Tali just found a Male Shephard cute or physically attractive, which I would find a disservice to her character. 

Modifié par Kolaris8472, 06 février 2010 - 02:57 .


#121
DaeJi

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Naltair wrote...
Yeah really new character is the better plan than selling people crap they already have for what ten minutes of content?


Yeah, weeks of man hours and money is a much better deal that hours of slight reworking that they can sell for $6. Now, I do actually agree that a new character would be great and not having to pay for content already in the game would be the ideal, but I'm looking at this from a business stand point.

Naltair wrote...
Not so much that the audience is smaller, so
much as it has no broad base appeal, the return on invest, being time
and manpower is just not there.  It's way too niche and again utilizes
recycled content people already have, how would you market this to make
people think they have to have it
?  


"LESBIANS!"

Modifié par DaeJi, 06 février 2010 - 02:57 .


#122
Mystranna Kelteel

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Naltair wrote...
I will concede the point on the examples I was hasty there.

But I won;t concede the point on the asari, they are fan service, they have a real role in the game but their sexual orientation or lack thereof is pure fan service and only probably exists so they had an easy out for a same sex relationship that appeals to the main demographic of the audience.  Young men.

The species is very well fleshed out, but the fact they look exactly like women and happen to be the only same sex choice is pretty clear on their purpose.  Why didn't they make a mono-gendered race that was male and was appealing to both genders?


One example I forgot: Jack and the girlfriend/boyfriend team she hooked up with in her past

And whether or not the asari are "fan-service" is still your guesswork, and not particularly relevant to the argument at hand.

#123
Naltair

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Kolaris8472 wrote...

Twitchmonkey wrote...
Tali doesn't seem bothered by species, but again there is no reason to believe that gender is not an issue. Suit linking does not have to mean there ar any romantic feelings, it just so happens that there are also romantic feelings between her and ManShep.


"Just so happens" is what gets me. Where did they come from, if not the shared experiences, emotional roles, and psychological link that is, well, arbitrary regardless of whether your Shephard is Paragon or Renegade, that are exactly the same between a Male and Female Shephard. The best explanation is that Tali just found a Male Shephard cute or physically attractive, which I would find a disservice to her character. 

How is that a disservice?  In what way does her preferring one gender over another make her less a character?

#124
Twitchmonkey

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Kolaris8472 wrote...
"Just so happens" is what gets me. Where did they come from, if not the shared experiences, emotional roles, and psychological link that is, well, arbitrary regardless of whether your Shephard is Paragon or Renegade, that are exactly the same between a Male and Female Shephard. The best explanation is that Tali just found a Male Shephard cute or physically attractive, which I would find a disservice to her character. 


Is it a disservice? Is a character or a person less than they would be otherwise because they are only physically attracted to one gender? That makes the character of some of the greatest people in history suspect.

#125
Naltair

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Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
And whether or not the asari are "fan-service" is still your guesswork, and not particularly relevant to the argument at hand.

If you want to avoid the obvious go right ahead and yes it is tangentially related to the subject of the near absence of same sex relationships in ME2.   The only race so far that is shown to go both ways is the asari, not to say the other races probably don't have homosexuality but it is not explored at least in any lore in game.

Modifié par Naltair, 06 février 2010 - 02:59 .