190 réponses à ce sujet

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Twitchmonkey wrote...
Tali doesn't seem bothered by species, but again there is no reason to believe that gender is not an issue. Suit linking does not have to mean there ar any romantic feelings, it just so happens that there are also romantic feelings between her and ManShep.

"Just so happens" is what gets me. Where did they come from, if not the shared experiences, emotional roles, and psychological link that is, well, arbitrary regardless of whether your Shephard is Paragon or Renegade, that are exactly the same between a Male and Female Shephard. The best explanation is that Tali just found a Male Shephard cute or physically attractive, which I would find a disservice to her character. 

How is that a disservice?  In what way does her preferring one gender over another make her less a character?

That's not the point, its that she valued the physical aspect over any other. 

What was she planning to do on the Quarian fleet, then? She'd have to pick her husband based on character there, I guess she just took the first option that didn't have a mask...? 

Modifié par Kolaris8472, 06 février 2010 - 03:02 .

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
That's not the point, as Shephard could look like a disfigured primate depending on how you make him, its that she valued the physical aspect over any other. 

What was she planning to do on the Quarian fleet, then? She'd have to pick her husband based on character there, I guess she just took the first option that didn't have a mask...? 

The game does not choose your LI based on your looks, it just assumes you are always handsome or dashing or beautiful even if you make your character look like a beast.  You can't use that as any kind of proof, the game engine and AI is just not sophisticated enough to make that call when it is a binary system of checks and flags.  You select response, then surprise she sleeps with you.

[Naltair]

Looks in that respect have nothing to do with it, the only thing that probably matter is that Shepard looks similar to male quarians, and she finds that exotic and attractive. Plus he is a big damn hero.

[Twitchmonkey]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
That's not the point, as Shephard could look like a disfigured primate depending on how you make him, its that she valued the physical aspect over any other. 

What was she planning to do on the Quarian fleet, then? She'd have to pick her husband based on character there, I guess she just took the first option that didn't have a mask...? 

If you are going to introduce the variability of Shepard's face into the equation, then it facial beauty becomes a non-issue because it is clear that it is not something anyone values in that Shepard can be made to look awful. So, disregarding that issue, we can at least understand that it is likely that Tali prefers masculine bodies, masculine voices, masculine energy, etc.

There is nothing wrong with this.

Edit: You always seem to be posting the same thing as I'm posting but before me, Naltair, why do I even bother?

Modifié par Twitchmonkey, 06 février 2010 - 03:03 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

I'm not putting my value system on anyone, because I'm only speaking for myself and some other hypothetical real life males. I don't really think there is any doubt that there are straight males besides myself that find Twi'Leks attractive, but if you'd like me to rescind that statement then fine, I'm just talking for myself.

Garrus seems to have some issues with the interspecies thing, but ultimately he decides that he is attracted to the female Shepard, this is fine that's his unique value system. I do think that the idea that he would be equally attracted to a human male is not only unsupported, it is a dubious claim. Just as Garrus, even being a Turian, has a masculine body and facial proportions as well as a masculine energy and voice, so does ManShep, that may not be something he finds attractive. If he does, then great, but there is no reason he has to.

Tali doesn't seem bothered by species, but again there is no reason to believe that gender is not an issue. Suit linking does not have to mean there ar any romantic feelings, it just so happens that there are also romantic feelings between her and ManShep.

And a character's sexuality does in some way effect who they are, not only is it unrealistic, it's artistically suspect, as then you are creating characters based on what the fans want, not based on who they are.

I actually don't disagree that some other men find Twi'leks attractive. I only find fault in your arguement thats the only thing that matters where attraction is concerned.

I find it personally far more realistic and artisticly sound that these relationships form due to actual interaction between characters, rather than based purely on physical parts. What these characters share between each other and how they develop is the important part. Letting the player have a hand in how these characters develop make for a much richer and personallized storytelling experience. Thats what makes it a role playing game, and not a movie.

All I'm realy seeing in your arguement is that you have a preconcieved notion of how these characters are in your game, and that if they develop different in someone else's game that's somehow a worse story.

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...
That's not the point, as Shephard could look like a disfigured primate depending on how you make him, its that she valued the physical aspect over any other. 

What was she planning to do on the Quarian fleet, then? She'd have to pick her husband based on character there, I guess she just took the first option that didn't have a mask...? 

The game does not choose your LI based on your looks, it just assumes you are always handsome or dashing or beautiful even if you make your character look like a beast.  You can't use that as any kind of proof, the game engine and AI is just not sophisticated enough to make that call when it is a binary system of checks and flags.  You select response, then surprise she sleeps with you.

Sigh, that wasn't what I meant. Just removed it. 

The issue is that Tali appears to base her decision solely on your looks if that's the case. 

[Fishy]

I wonder if Krogan can be homosexual ...
That would not fit their species at all.

Modifié par Suprez30, 06 février 2010 - 03:05 .

[SimonTheFrog]

Cool, that would be an Octo...

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Naltair wrote...
If you want to avoid the obvious go right ahead and yes it is tangentially related to the subject of the near absence of same sex relationships in ME2.   The only race so far that is shown to go both ways is the asari, not to say the other races probably don't have homosexuality but it is not explored at least in any lore in game.

I like how you used the word tangentially.

Humans and asari have both represented homosexuality.

And if you disregard the asari as sexual beings, then your only real evidence of inter-species romance is Tali and Garrus and the quarian/turian at the bar who were put there to gently mock the fanbase.

So, yeah, if you ahve to completely ignore the entire asari race to make your argument look even semi-substantial, your position is obviously weak.

[Twitchmonkey]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I actually don't disagree that some other men find Twi'leks attractive. I only find fault in your arguement thats the only thing that matters where attraction is concerned.

When did I argue for this? I simply refuted the suggestion that if one is willing to overcome the species issue, then gender becomes a non-issue. This is not always the case. Some of the time, I imagine it is.

I find it personally far more realistic and artisticly sound that these relationships form due to actual interaction between characters, rather than based purely on physical parts. What these characters share between each other and how they develop is the important part. Letting the player have a hand in how these characters develop make for a much richer and personallized storytelling experience. Thats what makes it a role playing game, and not a movie.

That is certainly part of it, if you do not respond in a way they care for, then the romance doesn't develop, however, as with real relationships, physical appearance is an aspect of attraction.

All I'm realy seeing in your arguement is that you have a preconcieved notion of how these characters are in your game, and that if they develop different in someone else's game that's somehow a worse story.

Characters should be what they are. Why should Garrus be gay in their game and not in mine? It stinks of pandering. If someone prefers humans should all of the characters become humans? No. They are what they are, if you don't like it, you don't have to like them, but that's how they are designed.

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

Looks in that respect have nothing to do with it, the only thing that probably matter is that Shepard looks similar to male quarians, and she finds that exotic and attractive. Plus he is a big damn hero.

The problem this comes back to is that if/because she finds physical masculinity attractive, she won't carry on a conversation with a Female Shephard. Which is a greater issue, imo. They won't do decent non-romantic dialog for a romantic interest. 

[DaeJi]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

Characters should be what they are. Why should Garrus be gay in their game and not in mine? It stinks of pandering. If someone prefers humans should all of the characters become humans? No. They are what they are, if you don't like it, you don't have to like them, but that's how they are designed.

Garrus can be shaped by the players, either to be more paragon or renegade. So Garrus can be different in two player's games. Not a good example to prove that characters are the same no matter what.

Modifié par DaeJi, 06 février 2010 - 03:09 .

[Naltair]

I didn't say that Mystranna, I said that the asari are a fan service race, not that they should be ignored. What I am trying to say is that so far the only homosexual relationships in game are with an asari, well now a human if you count Kelly Chambers who seems to be an odd duck but yes she counts. But as far as species go the asari are the only ones who seem to be getting it on with everyone despite gender. The rest we have no examples yet, it can be assumed they exist but as you like to state that is just guesswork.



I really am not sure what they are trying to do with Kelly Chambers.

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Looks in that respect have nothing to do with it, the only thing that probably matter is that Shepard looks similar to male quarians, and she finds that exotic and attractive. Plus he is a big damn hero.

The problem this comes back to is that if/because she finds physical masculinity attractive, she won't carry on a conversation with a Female Shephard. Which is a greater issue, imo. They won't do decent non-romantic dialog for a romantic interest. 

They didn't do decent non-romantic dialog for anyone, so this isn't just limited to Tali.

Well the love interests have rather limited dialog unless you pursue the romance.

Modifié par Naltair, 06 février 2010 - 03:13 .

[Caz Neerg]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I find it personally far more realistic and artisticly sound that these relationships form due to actual interaction between characters, rather than based purely on physical parts. What these characters share between each other and how they develop is the important part. Letting the player have a hand in how these characters develop make for a much richer and personallized storytelling experience. Thats what makes it a role playing game, and not a movie.

All I'm realy seeing in your arguement is that you have a preconcieved notion of how these characters are in your game, and that if they develop different in someone else's game that's somehow a worse story.

Characters only develop differently within a very narrow range that has already been defined by BioWare for the currently present characters.  DLC that retcons the characters *would* make for a worse story.  The Garrus and Jacob that exist in the ME2 would not be believable as bisexuals.  Neither would Miranda.  With Jack, possibly the angry sex, but probably not the romance.  Tali would be an easier sell, and even Thane might work, but even if you don't like it, it is perfectly realistic for people to need to be physically attracted to each other for a meaningful and lasting romantic relationship to form.  They are romances, not bromances.

[SimonTheFrog]

Kelly basically is Sigourny Weaver from GalaxyQuest. Spaceships gotta have one of them it seems

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 06 février 2010 - 03:13 .

[Twitchmonkey]

DaeJi wrote...
Garrus can be shaped by the players, either to be more paragon or renegade. So Garrus can be different in two player's games. Not a good example to prove that characters are the same no matter what.

That is a decision anyone can make, that is part of his personality, the fact that he is influenced by Shepard, it's hardly a gay toggle. The fact that things changed doesn't mean that you should be able to make every character into what you think they should be. Bioware took a lot of time constructing a great story and great characters and I think we shoud play the story they've laid out for us, given the versatility they find appropriate.

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Looks in that respect have nothing to do with it, the only thing that probably matter is that Shepard looks similar to male quarians, and she finds that exotic and attractive. Plus he is a big damn hero.

The problem this comes back to is that if/because she finds physical masculinity attractive, she won't carry on a conversation with a Female Shephard. Which is a greater issue, imo. They won't do decent non-romantic dialog for a romantic interest. 

They didn't do decent non-romantic dialog for anyone, so this isn't just limited to Tali.

Well the love interests have rather limited dialog unless you pursue the romance.

But Tali is the only one where a "same-sex" romance would actually make sense, would actually work given where that relationship left off and completely ignoring the Male Shep romance as that wouldn't exist in the given game. Its basically the only one where they can correct the problem in a "lesser-evil" type way. 

[Fishy]

i'm sure Wrez is gay

[Naltair]

I will put it this way if they were meant to be bisexual they would have been that way at launch. Changing it after the fact is sort of odd, adding it to ME3 might work, but I doubt it. I think they decided these stances a long time ago, and I doubt they will change it. You can point to them becoming romances in the first place but I am sure they saw the same sex posts when people clamored for them and for whatever reason they decided against it.

[Twitchmonkey]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
But Tali is the only one where a "same-sex" romance would actually make sense, would actually work given where that relationship left off and completely ignoring the Male Shep romance as that wouldn't exist in the given game. Its basically the only one where they can correct the problem in a "lesser-evil" type way. 

Tali isn't a problem. Heterosexuals aren't a mistake.

I swear, people can be so hateful.

[Caz Neerg]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Looks in that respect have nothing to do with it, the only thing that probably matter is that Shepard looks similar to male quarians, and she finds that exotic and attractive. Plus he is a big damn hero.

The problem this comes back to is that if/because she finds physical masculinity attractive, she won't carry on a conversation with a Female Shephard. Which is a greater issue, imo. They won't do decent non-romantic dialog for a romantic interest. 

I fully agree with this, but writing non-romantic alternatives to the romance-exclusive dialogs is a better solution than simply making all romances open to both genders, without regard to whether that fits the characters.

[Kolaris8472]

Caz Neerg wrote...
They are romances, not bromances.

Except that in ME2, romances preclude bromances. 

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
But Tali is the only one where a "same-sex" romance would actually make sense, would actually work given where that relationship left off and completely ignoring the Male Shep romance as that wouldn't exist in the given game. Its basically the only one where they can correct the problem in a "lesser-evil" type way. 

It's the idea that you are fixing something that gets me.

[Cutlass Jack]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

Characters should be what they are. Why should Garrus be gay in their game and not in mine? It stinks of pandering. If someone prefers humans should all of the characters become humans? No. They are what they are, if you don't like it, you don't have to like them, but that's how they are designed.

If you were forced to play default John Shepard and made no actual choices in the game you might have an actual arguement here.

But that's not the case. It's a Bioware game. Characters develop based on the player's interactions with them. Just look at how different Jack develops in a Paragon direction vs. a renegade one. Or the interactions with Garrus in both 1 and 2 that sharply change his development. Nearly every character can change drastically just because of your actions and how you deal with them.

Why should Garrus be 'gay' in one game and not in another? Because the 'Shepard' he's playing with in the other game is entirely different than yours. Garrus might not have any normal leanings in male or human directions. But Shepard is still the best thing he's ever had in his life. Overcoming obstacles makes for a richer story experience, not a cheaper one.