190 réponses à ce sujet

[Naltair]

Caz Neerg wrote...
I fully agree with this, but writing non-romantic alternatives to the romance-exclusive dialogs is a better solution than simply making all romances open to both genders, without regard to whether that fits the characters.

They really need to do this for ME3, the dialogs ended too soon.

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

I will put it this way if they were meant to be bisexual they would have been that way at launch. Changing it after the fact is sort of odd, adding it to ME3 might work, but I doubt it. I think they decided these stances a long time ago, and I doubt they will change it. You can point to them becoming romances in the first place but I am sure they saw the same sex posts when people clamored for them and for whatever reason they decided against it.

If you pick up right where Femshep/Tali left off in ME2 and forget the Male Romance, it would make a lot of sense, it would be a believable, natural evolution of the relationship. Of course, I wouldn't even want it if they'd do decent non-LI dialog. 

Tali isn't a problem. Heterosexuals aren't a mistake.

I swear, people can be so hateful.

Tali being straight isn't a problem, Tali not talking or developing a relationship with anyone who isn't a love interest is a problem. 

[DaeJi]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

That is a decision anyone can make, that is part of his personality, the fact that he is influenced by Shepard, it's hardly a gay toggle. The fact that things changed doesn't mean that you should be able to make every character into what you think they should be. Bioware took a lot of time constructing a great story and great characters and I think we shoud play the story they've laid out for us, given the versatility they find appropriate.

BioWare took those great characters and altered two of them to appeal to fans. Not only is changing some aspects of characters not beyond them, they have already done it. Fan request lead to that. And the desire for a Tali and Garrus romance was not universal.

You and others claim that making a character bisexual will cheapen them. These are characters whose personality hinges on what BioWare decides for them. If some of them were bi from the start these arguments would not exist. You are arguing for the sake of characters that don't exist but as a collection of 1s and 0s. If BioWare changes these characters, nothing is lost. Some people will like it, some will not. The same as now. The only difference is, the sides switch.

I would have more fun if Tali or Jack were an option for a female Shepard. Others would have more fun if Jacob or Thane were options for male Shepards. It's fun that will always drive a game, nothing else. Because without fun, there is no game.

[Naltair]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Why should Garrus be 'gay' in one game and not in another? Because the 'Shepard' he's playing with in the other game is entirely different than yours. Garrus might not have any normal leanings in male or human directions. But Shepard is still the best thing he's ever had in his life. Overcoming obstacles makes for a richer story experience, not a cheaper one.

I agree that characters can change based on your actions but some people just have their limits.  Also that plays into the idea that someone can be changed into being gay or bisexual, which could be insulting to that community since it implies choice, like I can choose to be one way or another.  As opposed to another stance that being gay or bisexual is simply who they are, or heterosexual and no amount of "changing" will fix that, not that it needs to be fixed.

[Caz Neerg]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Twitchmonkey wrote...

Characters should be what they are. Why should Garrus be gay in their game and not in mine? It stinks of pandering. If someone prefers humans should all of the characters become humans? No. They are what they are, if you don't like it, you don't have to like them, but that's how they are designed.

If you were forced to play default John Shepard and made no actual choices in the game you might have an actual arguement here.

But that's not the case. It's a Bioware game. Characters develop based on the player's interactions with them. Just look at how different Jack develops in a Paragon direction vs. a renegade one. Or the interactions with Garrus in both 1 and 2 that sharply change his development. Nearly every character can change drastically just because of your actions and how you deal with them.

Why should Garrus be 'gay' in one game and not in another? Because the 'Shepard' he's playing with in the other game is entirely different than yours. Garrus might not have any normal leanings in male or human directions. But Shepard is still the best thing he's ever had in his life. Overcoming obstacles makes for a richer story experience, not a cheaper one.

Renegade and Paragon are choices.  Gay and straight are not.  He either is or he isn't, and nothing in the character would make it believable that Garrus is.  Letting you decide it for *your* character is one thing.  Letting you decide it for NPCs is something else entirely.

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Tali being straight isn't a problem, Tali not talking or developing a relationship with anyone who isn't a love interest is a problem. 

Sounds like part of th issue is that like most of the conversations it just ends too early and abruptly.

[Twitchmonkey]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
If you were forced to play default John Shepard and made no actual choices in the game you might have an actual arguement here.

But that's not the case. It's a Bioware game. Characters develop based on the player's interactions with them. Just look at how different Jack develops in a Paragon direction vs. a renegade one. Or the interactions with Garrus in both 1 and 2 that sharply change his development. Nearly every character can change drastically just because of your actions and how you deal with them.

Why should Garrus be 'gay' in one game and not in another? Because the 'Shepard' he's playing with in the other game is entirely different than yours. Garrus might not have any normal leanings in male or human directions. But Shepard is still the best thing he's ever had in his life. Overcoming obstacles makes for a richer story experience, not a cheaper one.

To that extent, this is already how it is. If a character has been given the possibility of being gay, the given Shepard can have that romance with them, that's already in the game, we've seen that with Kelly in ME2 and with Liara in ME1. Using the right interactions they can be gay/bi, if you don't, then you don't get that option, but these characters are determined to have the capacity for these options.

However, not everyone is going to be gay/bi, regardless of your interactions. I've had great interactions and friendships with other men, never wanted to have sex with them, same with the characters in ME2. A character of the same sex may have a close bond with you, they may respect you, they may be willing to die for you, that doesn't mean they want to have sex with you.

BioWare took those great characters and altered two of them to appeal
to fans. Not only is changing some aspects of characters not beyond
them, they have already done it. Fan request lead to that. And the
desire for a Tali and Garrus romance was not universal.

Who are we to say that they implemented these romances to appease fans? Perhaps they as storytellers found them to be good romance options?

You
and others claim that making a character bisexual will cheapen them.

Misquoting me to make me seem like a gay-basher, that's cute.

These are characters whose personality hinges on what BioWare decides
for them. If some of them were bi from the start these arguments would
not exist. You are arguing for the sake of characters that don't exist
but as a collection of 1s and 0s. If BioWare changes these characters,
nothing is lost. Some people will like it, some will not. The same as
now. The only difference is, the sides switch.

If Bioware randomly makes changes to characters not based on sound reason and character development but on fan fervor, everyone suffers.

I would have
more fun if Tali or Jack were an option for a female Shepard. Others
would have more fun if Jacob or Thane were options for male Shepards.
It's fun that will always drive a game, nothing else. Because without
fun, there is no game.

I enjoy getting absorbed into a well-contructed story with good characters. I find it fun. What about my fun?

Modifié par Twitchmonkey, 06 février 2010 - 03:26 .

[Kolaris8472]

Caz Neerg wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...

Looks in that respect have nothing to do with it, the only thing that probably matter is that Shepard looks similar to male quarians, and she finds that exotic and attractive. Plus he is a big damn hero.

The problem this comes back to is that if/because she finds physical masculinity attractive, she won't carry on a conversation with a Female Shephard. Which is a greater issue, imo. They won't do decent non-romantic dialog for a romantic interest. 

I fully agree with this, but writing non-romantic alternatives to the romance-exclusive dialogs is a better solution than simply making all romances open to both genders, without regard to whether that fits the characters.

I would prefer that option as well, but I'm not optimistic. And I'd rather get as much dialog as possible in the one situation where the "same-sex" relationship would work, in my opinion at least. 

[Naltair]

Twitchmonkey wrote...
To that extent, this is already how it is. If a character has been given the possibility of being gay, the given Shepard can have that romance with them, that's already in the game, we've seen that with Kelly in ME2 and with Liara in ME1. Using the right interactions they can be gay/bi, if you don't, then you don't get that option, but these characters are determined to have the capacity for these options.

However, not everyone is going to be gay/bi, regardless of your interactions. I've had great interactions and friendships with other men, never wanted to have sex with them, same with the characters in ME2. A character of the same sex may have a close bond with you, they may respect you, they may be willing to die for you, that doesn't mean they want to have sex with you.

I really do think that some people misinterpret the closeness she, Tali, has for female Shepard for romance when it may just be that she sees Shepard as the sister she never had.  The closest friend she may ever have and she wants to show that by telling her she wants to bond suits like her mother and the admiral did.

Another obvious though arbitrary flag is that Kelly tells you pretty much straight up with either Garrus or Tali that they are at least interested or there is chemistry there.

[DaeJi]

Caz Neerg wrote...


Renegade and Paragon are choices.  Gay and straight are not.  He either is or he isn't, and nothing in the character would make it believable that Garrus is.  Letting you decide it for *your* character is one thing.  Letting you decide it for NPCs is something else entirely.

Garrus is a bunch of 1s and 0s. I want to have same sex romances because I would have fun with them. Both male and female. 

[Caz Neerg]

DaeJi wrote...

BioWare took those great characters and altered two of them to appeal to fans. Not only is changing some aspects of characters not beyond them, they have already done it. Fan request lead to that. And the desire for a Tali and Garrus romance was not universal.

You and others claim that making a character bisexual will cheapen them. These are characters whose personality hinges on what BioWare decides for them. If some of them were bi from the start these arguments would not exist. You are arguing for the sake of characters that don't exist but as a collection of 1s and 0s. If BioWare changes these characters, nothing is lost. Some people will like it, some will not. The same as now. The only difference is, the sides switch.

I would have more fun if Tali or Jack were an option for a female Shepard. Others would have more fun if Jacob or Thane were options for male Shepards. It's fun that will always drive a game, nothing else. Because without fun, there is no game.

How were Tali and Garrus altered?  What was actually changed about either of them?  What did either of them do or say in ME1 that made it imperative, or even reasonable, to believe that it wasn't possible for them to be attracted to Shepard?  People can be friends for years before becoming romantically involved.  Just because Shepard didn't flirt with a character in ME1, that doesn't mean the character will find him\\her physically repulsive for all time.

[Kolaris8472]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

Who are we to say that they implemented these romances to appease fans? Perhaps they as storytellers found them to be good romance options?

They may have initially, but they ruled them out because they felt the fans wouldn't be interested, then added them because the fan interest was there. Either way, the artistic "vision" sometimes needs to cater (tastefully) to its masses. 

[Twitchmonkey]

DaeJi wrote...

Garrus is a bunch of 1s and 0s. I want to have same sex romances because I would have fun with them. Both male and female. 

You're a bunch of atoms and vast network of synapses firing, ultimately leading to what you call a personality, should we be able to do whatever we please with you?

They may have initially, but they ruled them out because they felt the
fans wouldn't be interested, then added them because the fan interest
was there. Either way, the artistic "vision" sometimes needs to cater
(tastefully) to its masses.

Yes, however, every decision that panders to the fans instead of following their vision as developers is a disservice to themselves and us, even if it ends up selling to some.

Modifié par Twitchmonkey, 06 février 2010 - 03:31 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Caz Neerg wrote...

Renegade and Paragon are choices.  Gay and straight are not.  He either is or he isn't, and nothing in the character would make it believable that Garrus is.  Letting you decide it for *your* character is one thing.  Letting you decide it for NPCs is something else entirely.

I used Garrus for a specific reason. Not that I'm actually pushing for a gay Garrus relationship. But that the female-Garrus relationship is already so unbeleivable on a physical level that if Shepard were male, I doubt Garrus would feel any more uncomfortable.

There is no evidence to suggest that Turians can even tell the difference between male or female humans. Or that Humans can do the same on Turians. When you take into account that in two games worth of Mass Effect we've seen no obvious female Turians, it gives heavy weight to the notion that we couldn't tell them apart from the male ones. It's like trying to tell male crickets from female ones.

We also don't truly know a thing about their sexual practices. So who's to say if we're actually 'changing' a character or just haven't learned all there is to know about them yet?

[Naltair]

DaeJi wrote...

Caz Neerg wrote...


Renegade and Paragon are choices.  Gay and straight are not.  He either is or he isn't, and nothing in the character would make it believable that Garrus is.  Letting you decide it for *your* character is one thing.  Letting you decide it for NPCs is something else entirely.

Garrus is a bunch of 1s and 0s. I want to have same sex romances because I would have fun with them. Both male and female. 

I am glad you are not involved with the story at BioWare, they may just be data but they do like to create characters that people love and hate not just objects of desire.

[Caz Neerg]

DaeJi wrote...

Caz Neerg wrote...


Renegade and Paragon are choices.  Gay and straight are not.  He either is or he isn't, and nothing in the character would make it believable that Garrus is.  Letting you decide it for *your* character is one thing.  Letting you decide it for NPCs is something else entirely.

Garrus is a bunch of 1s and 0s. I want to have same sex romances because I would have fun with them. Both male and female. 

The on-screen avatar is a bunch of 1s and 0s.  The character is a bunch of dialogue and backstory, it is a piece of a literary work, and retconning the character into being someone fundamentally inconsistent with who he has been presented as being would harm the integrity of that literary work.

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...
Another obvious though arbitrary flag is that Kelly tells you pretty much straight up with either Garrus or Tali that they are at least interested or there is chemistry there.

Your fanservice argument for the Asari? I'd use something similar here. If there was someone who could tell Garrus was interested, it would be Shephard herself, without personal-assistant magic to help the player out. 

[DaeJi]

Twitchmonkey wrote...


Who are we to say that they implemented these romances to appease fans? Perhaps they as storytellers found them to be good romance options?

Connecting dots.

Misquoting me to make me seem like a gay-basher, that's cute.

I'm not trying to make you seem like a gay basher, that's what I got from your comments. Believe it or not, it's okay for you feel like that.

If Bioware randomly makes changes to characters not based on sound reason and character development but on fan fervor, everyone suffers.

There is not reason why they cannot do both. We are not asking form them to rewrite the characters, just add to them.

I enjoy getting absorbed into a well-contructed story with good characters. I find it fun. What about my fun?

And again I ask, how would BioWare making some of these character bisexual take away from them being good characters?

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Twitchmonkey wrote...

Who are we to say that they implemented these romances to appease fans? Perhaps they as storytellers found them to be good romance options?

They may have initially, but they ruled them out because they felt the fans wouldn't be interested, then added them because the fan interest was there. Either way, the artistic "vision" sometimes needs to cater (tastefully) to its masses. 

I think you can alter a vision, storytelling by fan committee is not the way to go.

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...
Another obvious though arbitrary flag is that Kelly tells you pretty much straight up with either Garrus or Tali that they are at least interested or there is chemistry there.

Your fanservice argument for the Asari? I'd use something similar here. If there was someone who could tell Garrus was interested, it would be Shephard herself, without personal-assistant magic to help the player out. 

How is Kelly telling the player hey this ME1 character likes you, fan service, it's just a flag they use to tell people, hey this character is an option.  

[Twitchmonkey]

DaeJi wrote...
I'm not trying to make you seem like a gay basher, that's what I got from your comments. Believe it or not, it's okay for you feel like that.

Not really. I tolerate gay bashers, but that does not make it okay. Misquoting me to trample on my intergrity is very insulting, but if that's what you do then fine.

If Bioware randomly makes changes to characters not based on sound reason and character development but on fan fervor, everyone suffers.

There is not reason why they cannot do both. We are not asking form them to rewrite the characters, just add to them.

And in adding to them you change them, essentially rewriting them.

And again I ask, how would BioWare making some of these character bisexual take away from them being good characters?

And once again I will tell you. Because it does not stay true to the character. Making believable characters is important to a game like this, just throwing in a hodgepodge of features that do not suit the character because the fans call for it leads to having a weaker character that has no unique character.

[Kolaris8472]

Naltair wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Naltair wrote...
Another obvious though arbitrary flag is that Kelly tells you pretty much straight up with either Garrus or Tali that they are at least interested or there is chemistry there.

Your fanservice argument for the Asari? I'd use something similar here. If there was someone who could tell Garrus was interested, it would be Shephard herself, without personal-assistant magic to help the player out. 

How is Kelly telling the player hey this ME1 character likes you, fan service, it's just a flag they use to tell people, hey this character is an option.  

I didn't mean it was fanservice, I meant it was implemented for out-of-game reasons, telling someone who may not be that involved in the story what their options are, basically, "with magic". I'd like to know how Kelly, who had never worked with Turians or Quarians before, managed to pick up on those extra-species love connections. 

[Cutlass Jack]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

I didn't mean it was fanservice, I meant it was implemented for out-of-game reasons, telling someone who may not be that involved in the story what their options are, basically, "with magic". I'd like to know how Kelly, who had never worked with Turians or Quarians before, managed to pick up on those extra-species love connections. 

Because Kelly is very loving.

[Kolaris8472]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

And in adding to them you change them, essentially rewriting them.

What? How do characters grow, then? Eventually their experiences are going to shape their outlook on things, otherwise they'll come off as either a thematical device (the paladin, the BBEG) or one-dimensional. I'm not a person who believes sexual tastes are hardwired, I think your experiences shape them. 

Modifié par Kolaris8472, 06 février 2010 - 03:40 .

[Naltair]

Kelly seems to be very in tune emotionally with anyone regardless of species, despite the differences and this is something that ME1 and ME2 play up the emotional and often psychological traits of sentients are fairly similar. So with her being very empathetic she can discern these things quite quickly.



Plus its her job to get to know the crew.