190 réponses à ce sujet

[DaeJi]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

Not really. I tolerate gay bashers, but that does not make it okay. Misquoting me to trample on my intergrity is very insulting, but if that's what you do then fine.

I did mean to misquote you or insult you, and if I did I apologize.

And once again I will tell you. Because it does not stay true to the character. Making believable characters is important to a game like this, just throwing in a hodgepodge of features that do not suit the character because the fans call for it leads to having a weaker character that has no unique character.

Why does it have to be bad? Aren't BioWare good enough writers to make it work? They made two relationships between species that could kill each other if they kissed work. I am not demanding that BioWare makes these changes half hazardly. Because I know what they are capable of, and I know that they make a same sex romance with these work as well as they always have.

[Naltair]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

Twitchmonkey wrote...

And in adding to them you change them, essentially rewriting them.

What? How to characters grow, then? Eventually their experiences are going to shape their outlook on things, otherwise they'll come off as either a thematical device (the paladin, the BBEG) or one-dimensional. I'm not a person who believes sexual tastes are hardwired, I think your experiences shape them. 

I am not going to get into the debate of if it is fixed or not, what I will say is that we all have certain tendencies and some people are harder to change than others.  In fact that change or tendency would need to be self motivated, and that goes for any gender pairing even heterosexual.  I can;t make a girl sleep with me, not legally, and if she is not into me then the romance will go nowhere no matter how much I try.

Like Samara, she shuts you down and no amount of influence will change her.

[Twitchmonkey]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
What? How to characters grow, then? Eventually their experiences are going to shape their outlook on things, otherwise they'll come off as either a thematical device (the paladin, the BBEG) or one-dimensional. I'm not a person who believes sexual tastes are hardwired, I think your experiences shape them. 

Who said rewriting was bad? I was simply pointing out that when you add something, you change the character, not that change was always bad.

While we could certainly have this debate at length, while I would say that sexual tastes are malleable, I can only speak for myself that I can never see myself having sex with a man, and I'm pretty open-minded. I don't think I'm alone in this.

Why does it have to be bad? Aren't BioWare good enough writers to make
it work? They made two relationships between species that could kill
each other if they kissed work. I am not demanding that BioWare makes
these changes half hazardly. Because I know what they are capable of,
and I know that they make a same sex romance with these work as well as
they always have.

It's up to them to determine what is right for their characters. If they determine that one of the cast members in ME2 should become gay/bi so then be it, I have confidence that they will do so in a quality way. I do not however support the idea that they should be forced to throw some half-assed reason together for a character's new sexual desires because the fans want it.

Modifié par Twitchmonkey, 06 février 2010 - 03:44 .

[Naltair]

Twitchmonkey wrote...
Who said rewriting was bad? I was simply pointing out that when you add something, you change the character, not that change was always bad.

While we could certainly have this debate at length, while I would say that sexual tastes are malleable, I can only speak for myself that I can never see myself having sex with a man, and I'm pretty open-minded. I don't think I'm alone in this.

I don't like to be involved in man sex, but I am fine with man sex, just not me and man sex.

I am male with a heterosexual woman.

Modifié par Naltair, 06 février 2010 - 03:43 .

[DaeJi]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

While we could certainly have this debate at length, while I would say that sexual tastes are malleable, I can only speak for myself that I can never see myself having sex with a man, and I'm pretty open-minded. I don't think I'm alone in this.

A fictional character needs to be more dynamic than a real person; that's a basic fundamental of fiction. 

[Twitchmonkey]

DaeJi wrote...

A fictional character needs to be more dynamic than a real person; that's a basic fundamental of fiction. 

I'm not so sure about that. I think Samara is a good character, and she couldn't possibly be any more set in her ways. I'm having a hard time thinking of any famous character that started out pursuing one sex and ended up with someone of another sex. There might be some, but sexual versatility is not a hallmark of great character design.

[Kolaris8472]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...
What? How to characters grow, then? Eventually their experiences are going to shape their outlook on things, otherwise they'll come off as either a thematical device (the paladin, the BBEG) or one-dimensional. I'm not a person who believes sexual tastes are hardwired, I think your experiences shape them. 

Who said rewriting was bad? I was simply pointing out that when you add something, you change the character, not that change was always bad.

Well I didn't mean to say anything about re-writing at all, as that's not what I would call it. It would not void anything Tali or Garrus have explicitly done or said in the past. If their experiences from the past two games have made their bond with Shephard strong off to leap over the (in my opinion, shorter) gender barrier after the species hurdle, how would that be inconsistent or re-writing? 

[Twitchmonkey]

Kolaris8472 wrote...
Well I didn't mean to say anything about re-writing at all, as that's not what I would call it. It would not void anything Tali or Garrus have explicitly done or said in the past. If their experiences from the past two games have made their bond with Shephard strong off to leap over the (in my opinion, shorter) gender barrier after the species hurdle, how would that be inconsistent or re-writing? 

Because that isn't true to some characters' nature. Some are firmly commited to sex with a single gender. We'll see if that is the case with these two, but they should not be forced into a mold.

[DaeJi]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

I'm not so sure about that. I think Samara is a good character, and she couldn't possibly be any more set in her ways. I'm having a hard time thinking of any famous character that started out pursuing one sex and ended up with someone of another sex. There might be some, but sexual versatility is not a hallmark of great character design.

For a fictional character pursuing someone of one sex only to end with the another sex, there is Moondragon in Marvel Comics. Regarding Samara, she is a dynamic character; she left her hunt to join you. Set in her ways she may be, but that can change is that fact is made clear within the game.

[Naltair]

But Samara will never sleep with you, and she has her reasons for not doing so. I admire that in her.

[Twitchmonkey]

DaeJi wrote...

For a fictional character pursuing someone of one sex only to end with the another sex, there is Moondragon in Marvel Comics. Regarding Samara, she is a dynamic character; she left her hunt to join you. Set in her ways she may be, but that can change is that fact is made clear within the game.

Well, she has agreed to join you on your mission from the first time you hear of her I believe. She seems to know about you at least, and she certainly hasn't given up her hunt or her ideology because that is her loyalty quest. Just one example, there are lots of characters that have a consistent personality throughout their stories.

But Samara will never sleep with you, and she has her reasons for not doing so. I admire that in her.

It's for the best, I think her man jaw might be a sexual liability.

Modifié par Twitchmonkey, 06 février 2010 - 03:58 .

[Naltair]

I have to wonder how many of these people that want usually female/female relationships are actually just men that prefer to play women but don't want male LIs.

[Twitchmonkey]

Naltair wrote...

I have to wonder how many of these people that want usually female/female relationships are actually just men that prefer to play women but don't want male LIs.

Hell I'm sort of in that boat. My last character was a FemShep and I wouldn't have minded a female option, but only if it was done well and made sense for the character.

Thane was a worthy partner for my awesome FemShep though, so it was alright.

Modifié par Twitchmonkey, 06 février 2010 - 04:02 .

[DaeJi]

Naltair wrote...

I have to wonder how many of these people that want usually female/female relationships are actually just men that prefer to play women but don't want male LIs.

Even if that were the case, and it probably is in some cases, does that make their desires any less viable than anyone else's?

[Naltair]

DaeJi wrote...

Naltair wrote...

I have to wonder how many of these people that want usually female/female relationships are actually just men that prefer to play women but don't want male LIs.

Even if that were the case, and it probably is in some cases, does that make their desires any less viable than anyone else's?

It was not an insult just a commentary and would put some of these threads into better focus for me.  Especially on their frequency.

[Cutlass Jack]

Naltair wrote...

But Samara will never sleep with you, and she has her reasons for not doing so. I admire that in her.

However....she's completely 'bisexual' in this. She comments about throwing you to the ground and having her way with you on either gender.