208 réponses à ce sujet

[Captain Crash]

Taken straight from Chris's own words.  Clearly they acknowledge that biotics/adepts are not balanced and I am sure they are working on improving this. 

I think it is going forwards to be a new balancing act between biotic powers and weapons.  Should weapon damage be lowered for an adept and biotic powers damage increased? a mixture?     Something needs to be done because my adept is currently a soldier which is not what I intended.

[pacer90]

Adepts could specialize to have the ability to have 2 separate cooldown timers or have their powers work at a certain % on shielded/armored targets. (Throw/singularity not withstanding on Heavy mech's etc.)

These could be the tech armor/ammo of adepts. While you are in this "mode" you can't use guns, heavy weaps etc.

Edit: What I mean by specialize is the adept specific talent tree.

Modifié par pacer90, 06 février 2010 - 12:17 .

[Twitchmonkey]

I don't much care for an easier adept, I'm interested in a more fun adept. With that in mind, I think that a combination of decreasing shield and armor strength while increasing health and possibly reducing the impact moves like pull and singularity might be a good move. That way the enemies will still require the same amount of damage to get them down and they won't be doomed once their shields and armor are down, but we will get a larger window to use a larger variety of skills.

[amrose2]

I think just having Biotics effect shielded/armored/barrierd targets would be a good start. That seems to be the biggest problem with the class right now.

[Twitchmonkey]

amrose2 wrote...

I think just having Biotics effect shielded/armored/barrierd targets would be a good start. That seems to be the biggest problem with the class right now.

Perhaps if it was done right, but I just can't see biotics being balanced with gun users if this were possible. Perhaps if powers were on a much larger cooldown, but would you really feel like a biotic if you could only use one power every 30 seconds?

[DeadRed1488]

Well, for one, singularity is quite underpowered. Right now though the biggest problem I can see is that adepts are useless until their enemy has no more defenses. And when an enemy is down to health they are pretty much already dead. Because when I tried adept, when I finally whittled away at someones shields, my party killed them before I could do anything. So really just give adepts a damage boosts vs. defenses and a non-nerfed singularity.

[ralx22]

amrose2 wrote...

I think just having Biotics effect shielded/armored/barrierd targets would be a good start. That seems to be the biggest problem with the class right now.

Exactly, maybe make it so that while their defenses are up, bitoic abilities arent as effective, like if you were to use pull the duration is decreased to 4 seconds as oppsed to 8 sec while defenses are down.

Another possible sollution is make it so that enemies with barrier arent affected by biotics but enemies with shields are, something along those lines. The way it is right now, biotics powers are no where near as entertaining to use as they were in mass effect 1.

[Captain Crash]

Higher Health would solve a couple of the issues. But not at too high a cost to the armour. We know how overpowering an adept was in ME but they certainly have toned it down far too much this time around. I think if biotics had a lower timer, or a dual timer that would alleviate some issues that would solve some problems.



However I find that the fact the weapons seem to be powerful enough anyway means that even if biotics were more powerful or scaled more I would still be inclined to use a maxed out sub-machine gun. The only way that would be resolved is to down-tone the weapons so that biotics do become the preference

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Allow all biotic powers to affect all enemies on all difficulty levels. Well, "Super-bosses" could be immune to singularity and pull but push should still stagger them at least and do some damage.

Shields/barriers/armor could reduce the effect of the biotics, but his biotics need to be fairly effective in order for adept to be a fun class to play.

The adept needs to be able to consistantly use most of his powers That would give him actual tactical options in the battle instead of just one power to use until a creature is stripped of his defenses (at which point crowd control is moot.since they go down fast.)

Edit:  Maybe adepts could be better at ignoring protection with their biotics than the other classes are, since they are supposed to be the biotic experts.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 06 février 2010 - 12:37 .

[Matterialize]

Well, biotics would be crazily overpowered if they ignored shields and armor. Maybe if they were only 33% effective against protected enemies or something. That way they're not entirely useless, but you still have an incentive to remove an enemy's protection before using them.

[sp8cemonkey83]

In my play experience, Biotics always seemed like a chore to use... which defeats the purpose of it being fun.

I played a Vanguard on my first playthrough. In theory, I can understand the benefits of using Shockwave for crowd control and Pull to distract a target but when I can't effectively use these until enemies are in the red then they are pointless.

I am playing a Sentinel now simply for the fact t that hey are the most skilled at dealing with enemy's defenses. Sure, while I was using my Vanguard I had Garrus (Overload) and Thane (Warp) in my party to compensate... but I really only used Shockwave and Pull against Husk and Abominations.

This concept just gets worst as difficulty raises because more of your opposition has some sort of buff.

My conclusion: Have Biotics work just as effectivley against Armor. 1/2 any damage if target is Shielded or has Barrier, and let all gravitational effects work regardless (ie: Shockwave will propel shielded foes).

Modifié par sp8cemonkey83, 06 février 2010 - 12:36 .

[Talthanar]

weapon damage is weapon damage. having it reduced would be a poor decision that would take away from immersion imo.



I think that modding some of the powers would be the wiser route, have a relatively weak power which has a very fast cool down time and progress upward. eg a weak throw/push that would be a bit closer to rapid fire and save the hard stuff like warp/singularity to reflect the need for time to build and release the power as well as cool down. By doing this it'll attempt to reflect the need for recovery on the body as well as reflect the abilities from the books.

[amrose2]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Allow all biotic powers to affect all enemies on all difficulty levels. Well, "Super-bosses" could be immune to singularity and pull but push should still stagger them at least and do some damage.

Shields/barriers/armor could reduce the effect of the biotics, but his biotics need to be fairly effective in order for adept to be a fun class to play.

The adept needs to be able to consistantly use most of his powers That would give him actual tactical options in the battle instead of just one power to use until a creature is stripped of his defenses (at which point crowd control is moot.since they go down fast.)

Yeah, there has got to be some kind of middle ground to reach here. Mashing Warp every cooldown is borrriiing.

[Captain Crash]

I think the key word coming out of this so far is "fun"

We want a fun class to play with and this equates to biotics and weapons having a balance. Additionally so we can use biotics more frequently and combine them in a fun way. It just doesnt happen enough at the moment due to the restrictions put in place by armour and barriers.

Modifié par Captain Crash, 06 février 2010 - 12:35 .

[Awesome Helmet]

adepts should be able to immobilize enemies with armor. only (blue)barriers and shielding should stop biotic attacks. thatd make insanity alot easier having biotics since alot of enemies have armor. but all around gameplay the adept can be more capable of dismantling with its biotics rather then with its weapons for 75% of the kill.



they should also do away wioth universal cooldowns. a non biotic that takes slam as a bonus talent creates a character that is equally as capable at controlling a battlefield as an adept. the adept has all those abilities to use, when only one will do. a sentinel with throw is equally as capable at doing CC as an adept as well. with universal cool downs you can just spam throw/slam/whatever over and over without worry as to what other biotics you do or dont have. it just limits the effectiveness of being an adept. sometime s pull and a throw can be effective, or tehres times when a shockwave is better then a throw, but you can do all the CC you need with a soldier and a bonus talent like slam.

[matt654321]

I made  a topic suggesting these fixes a bit ago and the responses were overwhelming positive. I think they're good fixes.


I fully understand that biotics needed to be changed in Mass Effect 2 - keeping enemies afloat indefinitely with singularity + lift was overpowered and uninteresting. However, having the control effects of biotics be completely ineffectual on defended enemies on higher difficulties is also uninteresting - it relegates adepts to being forced to spam warp continuously on enemies, which is not what I had in mind when creating a biotic. I suggest the following changes, which I believe work well within your system to preserve balance while still allowing biotics to be interesting while not overpowered.

Pull - Allow it to work on armored enemies, but for only half of its duration. Heavy Pull maintains its full duration against armored foes.

This change allows biotics to have a decent option against armor besides mindlessly spamming warp, but it still keeps armor relevant. It also makes heavy pull a viable choice. This change also makes sense according to game lore (there's no reason for armor to fully defend against altering the enemy's mass). The best thing about this change is that it makes pull+warp into a useful and fun combination rather than being gimmicky and ineffective.

Remember that pull does not do much damage to armor by itself. You'll still need allies to shear off armor, making pull not an answer to armor in and of itself.

Throw - Knocks down armored enemies. Heavy throw sends enemies half of the distance.

Keeps thow relevant as an emergency option to stop charging krogans and the like, which adepts previously had almost no answer for. Since it doesn't send them very far, however, you still need to watch out for them. Again, makes heavy throw a viable option.

Shockwave - Works against shielded foes. Heavy shockwave deals damage to shields.

Adepts need a response against geth rushes. This version of shockwave will buy the adept some time, but won't solve the problem by itself - you still need to kill the enemies, as they'll get up eventually.

Warp - Deals 1.5x damage against barriers. Heavy warp deals double damage against barriers.

The achievement for warp is specifically against barriers, so I figured that warp is supposed to do something special against them. Enemy vanguards are still very dangerous, as the adept has no way to slow them down. With this version of warp, they can strip off their barrier quickly then throw them to buy time.

Singularity - Same changes as pull.


This system, IMO, allows biotics to do what they're supposed to do rather than being wholly ineffective on higher difficulty levels while still preserving balance and working within Mass Effect 2's typed defense system. Biotics would provide control but wouldn't be able to destroy enemy defenses - you'd still need to rely on teammates or your bonus powers for that. These changes would made adepts fun and playable on hardcore and insanity, but still balanced enough that the game doesn't devolve into spamming biotics and shooting in between like in Mass Effect 1.

Modifié par matt654321, 06 février 2010 - 12:42 .

[Jackal904]

Make warp do more damage against barriers, shield, and armor. That or make it so biotic abilities such as pull at least do something even slightly effective against shielded or armoured enemies. Making them completely immune to biotics is a bit much.

[The_mango55]

Cut defenses in half



Double health



I think that would be sufficient to make adepts more useful.

[TheLostGenius]

 I disagree. If you give your adept Reave and control groups with heavy singularity the Adept is a very potent class. Beat the game on Insanity with an adept with little difficulty.

[matt654321]

The_mango55 wrote...

Cut defenses in half

Double health

I think that would be sufficient to make adepts more useful.

That could potentially have the unwanted side effect of making the game harder in general. Example:

Enemy has 100 hp and 100 armor. Total points until kill: 200

Cut armor in half and double HP. Enemy now has 200 hp and 50 armor. Total points until kill: 250.

I think you meant cut defenses in half and add that number to HP. That would preserve the damage total.

[Wrex.the.next.spectre]

They need to make it so only enemies with barrier are unaffected by biotics. Enemies with Shields and armor should be able to be affected by biotics.



Ofcourse, they should leave the Heavy Mechs and Super bosses unaffected.

[TheBestClass]

Wouldn't it be great if they actually fixed biotics? Do you think they will?



I can dream...

[Dr. Explosion]

I played an Adept for my first playthrough, (and I currently have a sentinel and vanguard on the go), and while I didn't really have any major gripes with biotics, (I actually fell in love with Warp^_^), there are a lot of good suggestions here.

I don't think weapon dmg should be touched, but I do think that Singularity should be buffed up and I'm all for the two cooldown timers, though I haven't the slightest idea HOW to implement it. Maybe give the ability to make a SINGLE, weaker (lvl 1) power have a 1-2 sec. cooldown just so they're useful (IDK aboot anyone else, but I almost never used shockwave or pull myself, I left that up to Jack or someone else) but it's only available at lvl 15, or after you evolve another power. I know it's not the best idea ever, I'm just throwing it out there.

[matt654321]

TheBestclass wrote...

Wouldn't it be great if they actually fixed biotics? Do you think they will?

I can dream...

It says "in the future," meaning prolly for ME3. I'll join in on your dream, though.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

TheLostGenius wrote...

 I disagree. If you give your adept Reave and control groups with heavy singularity the Adept is a very potent class. Beat the game on Insanity with an adept with little difficulty.

The issue is not can an adept beat the game. It is can an adept have fun while beating the game. Spamming warp over and over and over is not fun. The adept's other biotic powers should be able to be used consistantly and effectively.

Oh, and Reave is  BONUS power for an adept. A bonus should be just icing on the cake, not a necessary power. My adept took it too but I really did not have much fun playing him. I enjoyed the cut scenes and such but the gameplay was lacking because of the inability to do much but warp spam.

There is little reason to cast pull/push/shockwave once the enemy defences are down.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 06 février 2010 - 01:14 .