208 réponses à ce sujet

[Serenum]

Please let's not go the route of Difficulty silliness, the argument for teh class is to make it more fun and enjoyable to play as well as deliver on its class archetype (biotic crowd control and damage).



The Insanity/Normal debacle doesn't help anyone, the issue remains the same - global cooldowns affect frequency and choosing of skills and armor/shields/barrier nullify the biotic powers.



There are some interesting suggestions, I would actually like BioWare to own what they did and go back for a full review of the class in ME3. The global cooldowns which were supposed to help you use your powers more often in the battlefield and make the class more fun worked the other way around in which they now let you Warp more often and use Singularity to create a biotic explosion.

[Lvl20DM]

I feel that biotics only need improvements on harder difficulties, making the "physics" abilities work on armor (with a reduced effect?) would be huge improvement.

[FFLB]

matt654321 wrote...

Pull - Allow it to work on armored enemies, but for only half of its duration. Heavy Pull maintains its full duration against armored foes.

Remember that pull does not do much damage to armor by itself. You'll still need allies to shear off armor, making pull not an answer to armor in and of itself.

I don't know about that. I used Pull quite a few times to force an enemy to float over an edge and then drop down to their death. Having it work against armored foes would still allow that, not to mention being comboed with a Mass Push or Wide Concussive Blast.

Shockwave - Works against shielded foes. Heavy shockwave deals damage to shields.

Adepts need a response against geth rushes. This version of shockwave will buy the adept some time, but won't solve the problem by itself - you still need to kill the enemies, as they'll get up eventually.

Currently, Shockwave outright kills some enemies when used against them, such as Husks. While it doesn't have to throw shielded and armored foes into the air, it could at least stun them for a short period of time to give the Adept some space.

Singularity - Same changes as pull.

Right now Singularity slows down enemies and chips away at shields and armor, so it's the most useful out of all of the abilities available to the Adept. Once they're trapped by the singularity, it isn't too difficult to simply strip them of the shields and armor, leaving them helpless within the singularity. I do feel that Armor shouldn't be able to block out a Singularity's effects. I can understand shields doing so, due to mass effect fields, but not armor.

I don't know if this can be applied to ME2 anymore, but for ME3, perhaps the Adept can use its abilities to control not only defenseless enemies, but also the surrounding environment. I remember in ME1 that a Singularity would draw in not only enemies, but also crates and spare tires. These seemed to do additional damage to floating enemies. Maybe if the Adept could use more of the environment to deal damage to foes, there wouldn't really be too many complaints about how useless the abilties are against certain defenses. Right now Overload can destroy explosive objects, but I don't recall Warp being able to do the same. If we could push a crate into a charging Krogan, there wouldn't be much need to push the Krogan itself. If the Singularity immobilized shielded enemies and then forcibly drew in crates and barrels to crush them... that would eliminate the need to use weapons or other abilities to get through those defenses.

There just seems to be so much more that could be done with the Adept's abilities, but they just haven't been implemented.

Modifié par FFLB, 06 février 2010 - 01:34 .

[pacer90]

Adepts are supposed to be fun. If we can't pull the enemies towards us how about being able to toss the crate the enemy is hiding behind aside?

[matt654321]

FFLB wrote...
I don't know about that. I used Pull quite a few times to force an enemy to float over an edge and then drop down to their death. Having it work against armored foes would still allow that, not to mention being comboed with a Mass Push or Wide Concussive Blast.

If the pull is only half of the duration, then it has much less of a chance of having the opportunity to send someone off a ledge. Also, power combos are supposed to be promoted.

FFLB wrote...
I don't know if this can be applied to ME2 anymore, but for ME3, perhaps the Adept can use its abilities to control not only defenseless enemies, but also the surrounding environment. I remember in ME1 that a Singularity would draw in not only enemies, but also crates and spare tires. These seemed to do additional damage to floating enemies. Maybe if the Adept could use more of the environment to deal damage to foes, there wouldn't really be too many complaints about how useless the abilties are against certain defenses. Right now Overload can destroy explosive objects, but I don't recall Warp being able to do the same. If we could push a crate into a charging Krogan, there wouldn't be much need to push the Krogan itself. If the Singularity immobilized shielded enemies and then forcibly drew in crates and barrels to crush them... that would eliminate the need to use weapons or other abilities to get through those defenses.

There just seems to be so much more that could be done with the Adept's abilities, but they just haven't been implemented.

You can do that to some extent now - you can throw/pull exploding crates and the like into enemies. It's just very difficult to do and not particularly effective. The do this all the time in cutscenes, though, so it should be an option, but I don't see how they would implement it.


Again, my changes are a good middle ground - biotics can't ravage enemies with defenses, but they aren't useless either, and the power combos actually work during important times now.

Modifié par matt654321, 06 février 2010 - 01:46 .

[pacer90]

If bioware is worried about overpowered pull/singularity, the enemies could have a defense against gunfire while they are suspended in the air.



I just want to use pull + throw like the ad said we could.

[T3hMerc]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

amrose2 wrote...

I think just having Biotics effect shielded/armored/barrierd targets would be a good start. That seems to be the biggest problem with the class right now.

Perhaps if it was done right, but I just can't see biotics being balanced with gun users if this were possible. Perhaps if powers were on a much larger cooldown, but would you really feel like a biotic if you could only use one power every 30 seconds?

Yes. Fix all this. PLEASE!

[Inverness Moon]

I'm thinking biotics should have decreased effect on armor, but still an effect and damage. And for shields it should damage but not be unusable.



I've heard that on insanity you are unable to even cast the powers on targets if they're shielded or armored or whatever. Is this accurate?

[Pocketgb]

While I can sympathize with Adept players finding themselves gimped in the game, I don't agree with allowing their skills to be fully effective when an enemy's defenses are still maxed. I can't imagine how much easier the game would be if that was possible.

[rumination888]

Simple change to fix Throw, Pull, and Shockwave:
Change their Heavy evolved version's statistics back to the rank 3 version, then make it so the Heavy version allows the abilities to pass through shields and barriers(NOT armor).
The Wide version becomes effective and fun on the low difficulty levels, while the Heavy version allows you to have fun with the abilities on Hardcore/Insanity without it being overpowered.

Modifié par rumination888, 06 février 2010 - 02:10 .

[Lolhaxx]

amrose2 wrote...

I think just having Biotics effect shielded/armored/barrierd targets would be a good start. That seems to be the biggest problem with the class right now.

You can change it to do so on the PC version.  But I'm still having a nightmare rebalancing the duration and cooldowns to compensate. 

[FFLB]

matt654321 wrote...

If the pull is only half of the duration, then it has much less of a chance of having the opportunity to send someone off a ledge. Also, power combos are supposed to be promoted.

It's not too difficult to pull off a power combo with a teammate. Even on your own, as long as you've upgraded the duration of the power, you can still combo quite well. It just isn't as fast as it was in ME1.

You can do that to some extent now - you can throw/pull exploding crates and the like into enemies. It's just very difficult to do and not particularly effective. The do this all the time in cutscenes, though, so it should be an option, but I don't see how they would implement it.

I guess I didn't notice that because they'd always get destroyed by enemy gunfire, or I'd destroy them myself. I didn't use Pull/Push all that much though. I preferred the other powers.

[Pocketgb]

Lolhaxx wrote...

amrose2 wrote...

I think just having Biotics effect shielded/armored/barrierd targets would be a good start. That seems to be the biggest problem with the class right now.

You can change it to do so on the PC version.  But I'm still having a nightmare rebalancing the duration and cooldowns to compensate. 

Is it at all possible for skills not to cause a global cooldown? That could make things a bit easier.

[matt654321]

FFLB wrote...


It's not too difficult to pull off a power combo with a teammate. Even on your own, as long as you've upgraded the duration of the power, you can still combo quite well. It just isn't as fast as it was in ME1.

I don't think that you understood. Yes, you can power combo now, but the only times where it's possible to do so is when it's no longer helpful (the enemy is already down to just health - may as well shoot them). If you can do some sort of power combo on a protected enemy, even at a reduced effect, it still elevates power combos from being completely gimmicky to being actually helpful.

[Lolhaxx]

Pocketgb wrote...

Lolhaxx wrote...

amrose2 wrote...

I think just having Biotics effect shielded/armored/barrierd targets would be a good start. That seems to be the biggest problem with the class right now.

You can change it to do so on the PC version.  But I'm still having a nightmare rebalancing the duration and cooldowns to compensate. 

Is it at all possible for skills not to cause a global cooldown? That could make things a bit easier.

There is a setting I tried to make it work but it doesn't.  Still gotta toy around with it some more. 

[matt654321]

Pocketgb wrote...

Lolhaxx wrote...

amrose2 wrote...

I think just having Biotics effect shielded/armored/barrierd targets would be a good start. That seems to be the biggest problem with the class right now.

You can change it to do so on the PC version.  But I'm still having a nightmare rebalancing the duration and cooldowns to compensate. 

Is it at all possible for skills not to cause a global cooldown? That could make things a bit easier.

That would lead to the same problems in ME1 - stacking biotics to permanently disable enemies. The reduced effectiveness option is much better for maintaining balance.

[Lolhaxx]

matt654321 wrote...

Pocketgb wrote...

Lolhaxx wrote...

amrose2 wrote...

I think just having Biotics effect shielded/armored/barrierd targets would be a good start. That seems to be the biggest problem with the class right now.

You can change it to do so on the PC version.  But I'm still having a nightmare rebalancing the duration and cooldowns to compensate. 

Is it at all possible for skills not to cause a global cooldown? That could make things a bit easier.

That would lead to the same problems in ME1 - stacking biotics to permanently disable enemies. The reduced effectiveness option is much better for maintaining balance.

Pretty much.  The cooldowns of the abilities must be brought back to ME1 levels too. 

[matt654321]

Lolhaxx wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

Pocketgb wrote...

Lolhaxx wrote...

amrose2 wrote...

I think just having Biotics effect shielded/armored/barrierd targets would be a good start. That seems to be the biggest problem with the class right now.

You can change it to do so on the PC version.  But I'm still having a nightmare rebalancing the duration and cooldowns to compensate. 

Is it at all possible for skills not to cause a global cooldown? That could make things a bit easier.

That would lead to the same problems in ME1 - stacking biotics to permanently disable enemies. The reduced effectiveness option is much better for maintaining balance.

Pretty much.  The cooldowns of the abilities must be brought back to ME1 levels too. 

I like global cooldowns more than I like waiting 1-2 minutes for my powers to recharge. All that needs to be fixed is their utter uselessness on the majority of the enemies. That was overboard.

[Looy]

Have Biotics ignore Shields and Armour by an amount based on the strength of the enemies total remaining protection (Shields/Barrier + Armour).

Basically Biotics will still affect protected targets if they where either weakened or had low protection to begin with. As an example: A fully armoured Krogan would have 100% immunity to biotics (the icon would still be red). At 60% armour his immunity begins to decrease by 30% armour he has only 50% immunity to biotic affects. The Immunity modifier applies to all the powers stats (duration, newtons of force, etc).

This would mean that boss and commander enemies would still need their defences lowering before Biotics can knock them out, but the weaker enemies with token shields would only have a very small resistance to biotic powers.

Ser Rune wrote...
The Insanity/Normal debacle doesn't help
anyone, the issue remains the same - global cooldowns affect frequency
and choosing of skills and armor/shields/barrier nullify the biotic
powers.

Actually, difficulty setting is what makes the adept weak. If you play on Normal or Veteran, the Adept is quite fun as most enemies still only have health, but on Hardcore and Insanity even the grunts need a couple of pistol shots fist.

Modifié par Looy, 06 février 2010 - 02:42 .

[skarlson]

I see no reason why armor should block biotic powers. Protect against damage? Maybe, but to have armor prevent you from being levitated off the ground makes no sense. Also, warp should affect shields, armor and barriers. It doesn't have to detonate shields since it specifically says biotics are detonated but it should at least damage them normally. Shockwave should do more damage than it does also. Currently I think it is not all that useful since even on people with no health it barely does any damage. This huge explosion that is strong enough to send someone flying isn't strong enough to do much damage? Lets stand near a similar explosion irl and see how much damage is done; it should damage barriers, shields and armor equally as well. They should soak up the damage and armor should not protect from the sending someone flying effect. Only shields and barriers should protect against any effect like that tbh. Armor protecting against floating or flying back makes no sense to me. Just off the top of my head.

[Average Gatsby]

I think I have a solution for Bioware, and it involves looking at the Engineer class. I think if they set up the Adept like the Engineer, not in abilities but in what those abilities mean in game, we'd all have a fun time without changing armor, shields, or anything like that:

Engineer has:                                                           Adept has:
Tech Mastery - cooldowns/damage                     Biotic Mastery - cooldowns/damage
Cryo Blast - AOE crowd control (health only)      Shockwave - AOE crowd control (health only)/damage
Overload - anti-shield, anti-mech                         Throw - single/(aoe) target knockdown, damage
Incinterate - anti-armor, anti-health                      Warp - anti-barrier, anti-armor, anti-health
AI Hack - Anti-mech, crowd distraction                 Pull - single target/(aoe) crowd control (health only)
Combat Drone - Crowd distraction                       Singularity - aoe crowd control

With that direct comparison, we see the issue:
Engineers have a specialty against a certain enemy type, mechs/geth, and have options for dealing with every enemy type via both damage OR distraction. Adepts, on paper, excel at groups of humanoids/non-synthetics, except this is completely negated by armor, barriers, or shields. In addition, the differences between Pull, Singularity, Throw and Shockwave are in theory ( not practice) the same, whereas the only two somewhat similar powers for Engineers are AI hack/combat drone. In truth, biotics have 3 abilities: Mastery, Warp, CC move, whereas Engineers 5: Mastery, Cryo, Overload, Incinerate, and Distraction.

My fix proposal: 
1) Biotics should not have any anti shield move, just how engineers have no anti barrier move. That makes sense. The jack of all trades class is the sentinel, not the biotic.
2) Make Warp stronger anti-armor, no anti-barrier. Make Throw anti barrier. That way we get some diversity instead of warp spam
3) Pull works on all enemies, reguardless of armor, shield, or barrier, however it is also single target only. That way we have some kind of Crowd distraction, single enemy nutralization without it being overpowered OR a copy of the Engineer.
4) Singularity stays the same. Its the equivalent of Cryo Blast
5) Shockwave gets a damage-less "stun" when encountering armor/shield/barrier enemies. Instead of enemies getting beaten around up in the air, when shotwave hits them they get stunned, like what happens to shepard when she/he's hit with a rocket.

What do you guys think? I think this is a pretty solid way to deal with the problem, particularly with Pull and shockwave.

[Halucien]

Or maybe, just remove the global cooldown timer on all the Adept's skills and have them on individual cooldown timer instead?

[Proud Larry]

Global cooldown stinks.
Individual cooldown is overpowered.

So make there be a general "stamina" bar that allows you to use attacks as if they were on individual cooldown until it empties, at which point you must wait a few seconds for a global cooldown that refills the bar completely.

[Captain Crash]

Proud Larry wrote...

Global cooldown stinks.
Individual cooldown is overpowered.

So make there be a general "stamina" bar that allows you to use attacks as if they were on individual cooldown until it empties, at which point you must wait a few seconds for a global cooldown that refills the bar completely.

Individual cooldown would just cause constant barrages like in ME.  I think we want to avoid that again.

Finding the balance in powers is a bit more complicated then it seems.   Bioware arn't exactly going to go back to square one with the adept so Im not sure how they will integrate a new cooldown system.  I think they will just rework the existing one and alter the power usage.

As a result this means creating the balance between powers. Improving it to a degree where it is fun and not above it. However getting that correct is going to be subject to debate and much more testing.   Not an easy job really so this isn't going to be a quick fix.   

[Looy]

Proud Larry wrote...

Global cooldown stinks.
Individual cooldown is overpowered.

Hence why we should have grouped cooldowns: Attack Powers, Defence Powers, Ammo Powers and Special Powers (adrenaline rush, charge, etc) should each share a cooldown, but not affect each others cooldowns.

Anyway, cool downs arn't what ruins the adept, Immunity to powers does.