208 réponses à ce sujet

[FFLB]

matt654321 wrote...

No, you don't understand. The problem isn't how much damage they can do - it's the fact that there are easier, more straightforward ways of taking care of enemies when biotics finally do become functional.

You mean just shooting them? That's not the most efficient method, especially when you take ammo into account. You'd like all of the Adept abilities to be effective throughout the entire fight, but isn't that what the Sentinel is supposed to be?

Engineers may also have problems. I haven't looked at them much. Either way, their primary role isn't crowd control that becomes nearly impossible on higher difficulties, and I highly doubt that they have as many useless powers as the adept.

I haven't played as an Engineer either, but major crowd control is not supposed to be their strong point. They do have Cryo Blast, iirc, but that's more limited compared to what the Adept is.

More proof that you haven't read what I said at all. I never said that adepts should have a free pass. I think that certain powers should work on certain defenses, and even then those powers shouldn't work at full capacity unless you evolve them into their heavy version (and they still don't need to work fully then either - just more than a not evolved version). I mention explicitly that the reduced effectiveness is to prevent the overpoweredness that was present in ME1.

It seems to me that you just like hearing your own voice. You clearly haven't even read my suggestions.

When you consider the combo effects of abilities, allowing the Adept to affect an enemy with defenses would make the Adept rather overpowered. Even if Mass Pull holds them for less than a second, your squadmates' abilities don't need to travel in order to hit an enemy. It's just instantly there, once they stand out of cover. That would decimate enemies much faster than even the Soldier can. At least in ME1, you still had to shoot through their gazillion HP, on insanity.

It's funny that I felt the same way when reading your responses to myself and others. It seems like you want your suggestions to heard above all others, while squashing or ignoring what others have said. Your suggestions have already been made, and it's not like us regular posters are the ones to decide what changes, if any, are made to the game.

[rumination888]

Space Shot wrote...

Akimb0 wrote...

That's the point, warp this, warp that. Notice how it's always mentioned because it's the only power adepts get (not including bonus powers) which works vs shields/armour? On the higher difficulty levels where basically everything has armour or shields this means it's the only power an adept can use until all their defenses are stripped. There's something wrong with that.

Not really.  Sure, I'm heavily favoring warp while playing the Adept but I'm favoring concussion shot and incinerate even more heavily when playing my other classes.  You use the right tool for the right job and so long as you keep up that policy you don't have that much imbalance in ME2.

If you spammed Incinerate/Concussion Shot more than you used the SR or AR, you're basically playing those classes like a poorman's Sentinel rather than what they actually are: Infiltrators and Soldiers
If you wanted a power nuker, Sentinel is the way to go. They do more damage with Warp than the Adept.
Adept is supposed to be the crowd control class, but they're relegated to being 2nd rate nukers in ME2.

[thethain]

Shared cooldown of all abilities really hampers anyone without an ammo power.

Maybe let adepts have 2 cooldowns.

[SonsofNorthWind]

1. I'm a fan of the "armor doesn't prevent biotics" approach advocated here.

2. I'd like to see a stagger-stun, equivalent to that caused by the Combat Drone, from Throw and Shockwave hitting opponents who are protected from their effects by shields or barriers.

3. I'd like to see Singularity double its radius (3m for Wide? Come on!  At least 3m at 3 and 4.5 with wide, same as Zaeed's grenade) and immobilize enemies regardless of their protection. I don't need for it to stop them from shooting if they're protected with shields or barriers, but I would like it to completely stop their movement for the duration of its effect (the individual target duration, not the Singularity duration) regardless of difficulty mode. This would make the Adept much better able to control the shape of the battlefield without creating permanent disables as a possibility. As Singularity is Shep-unique, increasing the power of Singularity gives something to Adepts without changing anything else in game. 

4.  I'd like to see Adepts get a specific damage bonus to Warp.  No way a Sentinel should be better at anything biotic.

Modifié par SonsofNorthWind, 06 février 2010 - 08:42 .

[matt654321]

FFLB wrote...

You mean just shooting them? That's not the most efficient method, especially when you take ammo into account. You'd like all of the Adept abilities to be effective throughout the entire fight, but isn't that what the Sentinel is supposed to be?

Or just casting warp again. When enemies are down to just health, they're almost dead and thus less of a threat since you can pick them off if they ever become dangerous through positioning.

And no, the Sentinel is not the only class who is supposed to be functional against every enemy. They're supposed to debuff. This statement only shows your bias.

FFLB wrote...

I haven't played as an Engineer either, but major crowd control is not supposed to be their strong point. They do have Cryo Blast, iirc, but that's more limited compared to what the Adept is.

It's also irrelevant.

FFLB wrote...

When you consider the combo effects of abilities, allowing the Adept to affect an enemy with defenses would make the Adept rather overpowered. Even if Mass Pull holds them for less than a second, your squadmates' abilities don't need to travel in order to hit an enemy. It's just instantly there, once they stand out of cover. That would decimate enemies much faster than even the Soldier can. At least in ME1, you still had to shoot through their gazillion HP, on insanity.

Wow, now I know that you haven't even played an Adept on insanity. The premier tactic is for adepts to cast singularity and then cast warp (or have an ally do it). It's far from overpowered. Power combos are not an insta kill.

Even if they do prove overpowered (and honestly I doubt it, especially compared to, say, the infiltrator+cloak+widow sniper rife), then it's a simple adjustment to turn the cooldown up a bit or turn the damage down a bit.

FFLB wrote...
It's funny that I felt the same way when reading your responses to myself and others. It seems like you want your suggestions to heard above all others, while squashing or ignoring what others have said. Your suggestions have already been made, and it's not like us regular posters are the ones to decide what changes, if any, are made to the game.

Not really. You're only saying 'no these fixes can never work' without actually knowing what they are. You proved that you hadn't even read my statement in your last post, and now you're showing a complete inability to understand game mechanics.

And no, I'm not the only one to have suggested this or a similar fix. Some extremists have said to let biotics affect all enemies, but they're generally easy to pick out as extreme. Most level-headed people in this thread suggest allowing certain powers to work only on certain defenses, make powers work on defenses to a lesser effect, or increase HP while lowering protection. My suggestions were simply a combination of the first two. Of course, you'd only respond to the weakest of the arguments - the 'let them rock as they did in ME1' type argument, and use that as a basis for a claim that adepts should not be changed. You need to learn how to think outside of the box and actually pay attention to what other people are saying.

[gr00grams]

That's the point, warp this, warp that. Notice how it's always mentioned because it's the only power adepts get (not including bonus powers) which works vs shields/armour? On the higher difficulty levels where basically everything has armour or shields this means it's the only power an adept can use until all their defenses are stripped. There's something wrong with that.

Adept is supposed to be the crowd control class, but they're relegated to being 2nd rate nukers in ME2.

How many times do I need to say that singularity does affect shieled, barrier, armored opponents before it sinks in with you lot?



The only enemies I have found that resist it even on insanity, are YMIR mechs, and the collosus/bosses.



You can CC anything with it. They struggle against it, and will not attack.

Like Harbingers, scions, you name it.



You guys understand how powerful that is?

Just because it doesn't lift them up until they are only health, is irrelevant.



Like harbingers biotic spam of death? nothing. It never attacks if you maintain a singularity on it.

Scions Shockwave of doom? same deal.



It CC's just about everything.

[ItsFreakinJesus]

They need the assault rifle. That's all I care about.

[matt654321]

gr00grams wrote...



How many times do I need to say that singularity does affect shieled, barrier, armored opponents before it sinks in with you lot?

And how many times do we have to say that that still doesn't justify them having three other powers that are also supposed to crowd control but actually don't do anything? This has been the refutation of your point several times, yet you ignore it every time.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

gr00grams wrote...

Adept is supposed to be the crowd control class, but they're relegated to being 2nd rate nukers in ME2.

How many times do I need to say that singularity does affect shieled, barrier, armored opponents before it sinks in with you lot?

The only enemies I have found that resist it even on insanity, are YMIR mechs, and the collosus/bosses.

Sorry, but could you provide a video of singularity holding enemies in place who have  with shields/ barriers/armor? On insanity, I mean.

I hope you are not talking about the 1-1.5 second pause, because that is not crowd control. Singularity is the class skill of the adept and should be somewhat effective.

Because if singularity actually holds  enemies in place my adept was broken. I finished with him yesterday or I'd take him for another spin.


Also, could you show a video of an adept clearing levels as fast as other classes on insanity? Thanks.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 06 février 2010 - 11:48 .

[AuraofMana]

You people fail at knowing what balance means.  Adept being viable in Insanity is in no way, shape or form, implies that the class is on par with the other classes.  It is much, much harder to beat the game as an Adept on Insanity due to the fact that every man and his dog (varrens) has armor, shield, and/or barrier.  When those are in place, Adept CANNOT use anything other than Warp.

I am just going to call an enemy with armor, shield, and/or barrier a PROTECTED ENEMY.

Someone mentioned that Singularity DOES work on protected enemy, albeit it deals no damage and doesn't hold them as long.  No one has yet to confirm this.

Playing an Adept on higher difficulties should not render the player to spam warp and nothing else because he/she cannot.  Adept is meant to be a CROWD CONTROL class.  Even if you spec everything as damage heavy, the underlying goal of an Adept is meant to be CROWD CONTROL.  It is true that an Adept can wipe out a large amount of non-protected enemies with an ability like Singularity or Shockwave in addition to his CROWD CONTROL role.

On higher difficulties, Adept cannot perform his CROWD CONTROL role correctly because enemies are protected.  This heavily nerfs the class.  All the Adept can do is spam warp (which, according to some people, Sentinel has Warp that deals more damage, I do not know if this is true).  Adept does not have great weapon powers (no ammo, only SMG and HP).  While both the Sentinel and the Engineer are the same way, Sentinel is more viable on higher difficulties because they have Tech Armor (survival), Warp (anti-Armor/Barrier and apparently better than Adept), Overload (anti-Shield/Mech).  Engineer has an Attack Drone (extra damage and distraction that works REGARDLESS OF ARMOR/BARRIER/SHIELD) and AI Hacking (Distraction, I am aware it doesn't work on protected mechs, but it creates a dummy for enemies to shoot at while the hacked mech also attacks and deal damage).  So in the end, Adept loses his CROWD CONTROL role on higher difficulty.

In addition, the argument that spamming Warp being viable in higher difficulties is also a bad argument because that makes the gameplay of Adept boring.  If I want to spam Warp all day and do nothing else I'll go play a Sentinel.  At least I have Overload and Tech Armor to play with.

[matt654321]

AuraofMana wrote...

You people fail at knowing what balance means.  Adept being viable in Insanity is in no way, shape or form, implies that the class is on par with the other classes.  It is much, much harder to beat the game as an Adept on Insanity due to the fact that every man and his dog (varrens) has armor, shield, and/or barrier.  When those are in place, Adept CANNOT use anything other than Warp.

I am just going to call an enemy with armor, shield, and/or barrier a PROTECTED ENEMY.

Someone mentioned that Singularity DOES work on protected enemy, albeit it deals no damage and doesn't hold them as long.  No one has yet to confirm this.

Playing an Adept on higher difficulties should not render the player to spam warp and nothing else because he/she cannot.  Adept is meant to be a CROWD CONTROL class.  Even if you spec everything as damage heavy, the underlying goal of an Adept is meant to be CROWD CONTROL.  It is true that an Adept can wipe out a large amount of non-protected enemies with an ability like Singularity or Shockwave in addition to his CROWD CONTROL role.

On higher difficulties, Adept cannot perform his CROWD CONTROL role correctly because enemies are protected.  This heavily nerfs the class.  All the Adept can do is spam warp (which, according to some people, Sentinel has Warp that deals more damage, I do not know if this is true).  Adept does not have great weapon powers (no ammo, only SMG and HP).  While both the Sentinel and the Engineer are the same way, Sentinel is more viable on higher difficulties because they have Tech Armor (survival), Warp (anti-Armor/Barrier and apparently better than Adept), Overload (anti-Shield/Mech).  Engineer has an Attack Drone (extra damage and distraction that works REGARDLESS OF ARMOR/BARRIER/SHIELD) and AI Hacking (Distraction, I am aware it doesn't work on protected mechs, but it creates a dummy for enemies to shoot at while the hacked mech also attacks and deal damage).  So in the end, Adept loses his CROWD CONTROL role on higher difficulty.

In addition, the argument that spamming Warp being viable in higher difficulties is also a bad argument because that makes the gameplay of Adept boring.  If I want to spam Warp all day and do nothing else I'll go play a Sentinel.  At least I have Overload and Tech Armor to play with.

This should be obvious. Unfortunately, some people don't understand why they aren't having fun and just pretend they are. Your statement makes it about as clear as it gets - if they don't get it at this point, they'll never be able to break from their state of perpetual denial.

[GnB Epro]

I am happy with the new biotics overall, but they behave WAY differently from ME1.



With my level 60 adept on ME1 I was a biotic god. my singularity could take out rooms and my throw would ricochet people off of walls.



In ME2, my level 30 adept feels good...but I feel half as powerful. Sure, I can reave someones barrier and armor down quick and they just shockwave them away...but enemies don't go FLYING like they used to! Let me see them torn limb from limb, lets have bones snap and singularity rip them to shreds.



I don't mind having to go through levels of shields and armor and barriers to destroy them, but when I get to the point in which I want to "destroy" them, it looks so meek, and almost wasn't worth the wait.

[Average Gatsby]

Here's proof of Singularities effectiveness against shields:

Singularity vs Shields

Modifié par Average Gatsby, 07 février 2010 - 03:37 .

[Malthurakesh]

Average Gatsby wrote...

Here's proof of Singularities effectiveness against shields:

Singularity vs Shields

Tried to watch it, but youtube just says "This video is private."

I can vouch for singularity being useful on Insanity, though. Hit a shielded enemy with it and they are briefly staggered, which gives you time to shoot their shields off with your SMG. Then they go flying because the singularity can work on them properly.

I'm not saying the Adept works as well as it ought to, just that singularity is a little more useful than some of you think.

Modifié par Malthurakesh, 07 février 2010 - 04:44 .

[Average Gatsby]

Malthurakesh wrote...

Average Gatsby wrote...

Here's proof of Singularities effectiveness against shields:

Singularity vs Shields

Tried to watch it, but youtube just says "This video is private."

I can vouch for singularity being useful on Insanity, though. Hit a shielded enemy with it and they are briefly staggered, which gives you time to shoot their shields off with your SMG. Then they go flying because the singularity can work on them properly.

I'm not saying the Adept works as well as it ought to, just that singularity is a little more useful than some of you think.

Hey thanks for letting me know. The video is no longer private.

Singularity works even better against armored opponents: Here's another vid where you can see singularity doing damage to those around it.

Singularity VS Armor

[konfeta]

Well, just to repost my basic suggestions from another thread:

- Allow Throw to penetrate defenses at close ranges (so it is no longer the worst biotic skill and to give it a niche as CQC/defense tool for the Adept)
- Give Shockwave a "Destabilizing" effect as a debuff that allows targets hit by it to be briefly affected by Biotics; rebalance leveling of the skill appropriately. Exclude targets with more than 1 defense bar from this.

Pull, Singularity, Warp are fine with distinct uses as skills that I used non-stop on an Insanity run for different purposes.

@Gatsby
What do you think makes it impossible for people to fire up ME2, load a mission, come close to target, fire Singularity, and watch it loop in stagger animation for a functional disable? Why do they demand video proof as opposed to testing it themselves?

Modifié par konfeta, 07 février 2010 - 05:04 .

[BEAR-IRON]

Hey guys, I'm new here, nice to meet you.

I've been thinking about the same problem, and I think the best solution would be to implement a kind of power buildup.  When you press the button for the power, the longer you hold it, the more effective it becomes.

That way, if you just press the button, the power will do as it does already in the game (or less), and only causes a real effect if the target only has health left.  However, if you hold the button, the power will build up to a certain point and enable you to effect those that have a "protection" of armor, barrier or shields.

That way, depending on the amount of "charge" you put into your attack, your power will be more or less effective than it is now.  Earlier levels of the power will take a longer charge time and less max power (such as only bypassing a third through the armor on full charge), while later levels will be far more powerful (such as being able to bypass completely the shield of a common soldier).

That's my thought on the matter.

[Captain Crash]

BEAR-IRON wrote...

Hey guys, I'm new here, nice to meet you.

I've been thinking about the same problem, and I think the best solution would be to implement a kind of power buildup.  When you press the button for the power, the longer you hold it, the more effective it becomes.

That way, if you just press the button, the power will do as it does already in the game (or less), and only causes a real effect if the target only has health left.  However, if you hold the button, the power will build up to a certain point and enable you to effect those that have a "protection" of armor, barrier or shields.

That way, depending on the amount of "charge" you put into your attack, your power will be more or less effective than it is now.  Earlier levels of the power will take a longer charge time and less max power (such as only bypassing a third through the armor on full charge), while later levels will be far more powerful (such as being able to bypass completely the shield of a common soldier).

That's my thought on the matter.

Power buildup is an interesting one. Havent heard it mentioned so far.   That would kind of fall into the vanguards type of strategy, as you would be out of cover while charges and then you release if you getting bombarded.

But again it about balance, it be far more difficult to do on insanity. Plus getting the charge timer correct and the power it has is another issue.  

[Captain Crash]

rumination888 wrote...

Space Shot wrote...

Akimb0 wrote...

That's the point, warp this, warp that. Notice how it's always mentioned because it's the only power adepts get (not including bonus powers) which works vs shields/armour? On the higher difficulty levels where basically everything has armour or shields this means it's the only power an adept can use until all their defenses are stripped. There's something wrong with that.

Not really.  Sure, I'm heavily favoring warp while playing the Adept but I'm favoring concussion shot and incinerate even more heavily when playing my other classes.  You use the right tool for the right job and so long as you keep up that policy you don't have that much imbalance in ME2.

If you spammed Incinerate/Concussion Shot more than you used the SR or AR, you're basically playing those classes like a poorman's Sentinel rather than what they actually are: Infiltrators and Soldiers
If you wanted a power nuker, Sentinel is the way to go. They do more damage with Warp than the Adept.
Adept is supposed to be the crowd control class, but they're relegated to being 2nd rate nukers in ME2.

Exactly.  Shockwave on high levels is effective and I dont have an issue with it really. I works as designed.  Singularity however clearly doesnt do what it is intended for.   So much so I dont even use it anymore

I have a level 28 Adept and the only powers I use are shockwave and warp. Thats not right! Whats worse is I am using what should be amazing class as a slightly more varied soldier.  

[MC Kebab]

How about this



The value of shields and armor together measures the substraction of effectiveness. Here's an example:



My throw has a strength of 700 newtons, while my target has 300 shields + 500 armor. Ergo my target has a total value of 800 protection. Ergo 700 newtons - 800 protection eliminates the use of throw.



Now i'll pepper its shields down by 200. 100 shields + 500 armor = 600. Now my throw as an effectiveness of 100 newtons, which is just barely enough to tip my target's balance.



I'll weaken its shields and armor further to a total protection value of 400, you get the idea now. The throw has now a lethal force of 300 newtons!



The idea is that every power including pull and singularity gets some kind of force value to determine strength. This makes the minions targetable and the stronger foes immune in healthy state only. We won't be biotic gods like in the first game, but we won't be sitting ducks either.

[gr00grams]

I beat insanity with my adept last night.

And I was able to CC two scions at once, at varied parts gaining the reaper IFF.
Simply cast Singularity on them, and they don't move or attack, like just about anything else in the game.

From that,

You people fail at knowing what balance means. Adept being viable in Insanity is in no way, shape or form, implies that the class is on par with the other classes. It is much, much harder to beat the game as an Adept on Insanity due to the fact that every man and his dog (varrens) has armor, shield, and/or barrier. When those are in place, Adept CANNOT use anything other than Warp.

I am just going to call an enemy with armor, shield, and/or barrier a PROTECTED ENEMY.

Someone mentioned that Singularity DOES work on protected enemy, albeit it deals no damage and doesn't hold them as long. No one has yet to confirm this.

Playing an Adept on higher difficulties should not render the player to spam warp and nothing else because he/she cannot. Adept is meant to be a CROWD CONTROL class. Even if you spec everything as damage heavy, the underlying goal of an Adept is meant to be CROWD CONTROL. It is true that an Adept can wipe out a large amount of non-protected enemies with an ability like Singularity or Shockwave in addition to his CROWD CONTROL role.

On higher difficulties, Adept cannot perform his CROWD CONTROL role correctly because enemies are protected. This heavily nerfs the class. All the Adept can do is spam warp (which, according to some people, Sentinel has Warp that deals more damage, I do not know if this is true). Adept does not have great weapon powers (no ammo, only SMG and HP). While both the Sentinel and the Engineer are the same way, Sentinel is more viable on higher difficulties because they have Tech Armor (survival), Warp (anti-Armor/Barrier and apparently better than Adept), Overload (anti-Shield/Mech). Engineer has an Attack Drone (extra damage and distraction that works REGARDLESS OF ARMOR/BARRIER/SHIELD) and AI Hacking (Distraction, I am aware it doesn't work on protected mechs, but it creates a dummy for enemies to shoot at while the hacked mech also attacks and deal damage). So in the end, Adept loses his CROWD CONTROL role on higher difficulty.

In addition, the argument that spamming Warp being viable in higher difficulties is also a bad argument because that makes the gameplay of Adept boring. If I want to spam Warp all day and do nothing else I'll go play a Sentinel. At least I have Overload and Tech Armor to play with.

This post makes no sense. I can CC everything.

As far as pull, throw and shockwave not doing anything, I realize.
They did come in very handy at some points though, most notably when on the platforms leading to the reaper baby. I was able to toss most of the collectors clear off the platforms before they became harbingers.

Once, right in the last fight, a harbinger was right infront of me.
All I did was singularity him and mow him down.

Not attacks done to me.
The most damage that can be done to barriers and armor also comes from warp, in a shot per shot basis. By end of game, a singularity/warp combo would remove all armor and half hp of a collector.

They are the mainstay moves, pull, throw and shockwave are situational.

Adept so far because of singularity has been easily the most powerful class I have played.
In the insanity mode with adept, I did every mission and sidequest with no issues, except rescuing the quarian had to use some heavy weapon ammo. I killed the thresher maw, everyone survived the suicide mission, etc.

Modifié par gr00grams, 07 février 2010 - 05:55 .

[Looy]

MC Kebab wrote...

How about this

The value of shields and armor together measures the substraction of effectiveness. Here's an example:

My throw has a strength of 700 newtons, while my target has 300 shields + 500 armor. Ergo my target has a total value of 800 protection. Ergo 700 newtons - 800 protection eliminates the use of throw.

Now i'll pepper its shields down by 200. 100 shields + 500 armor = 600. Now my throw as an effectiveness of 100 newtons, which is just barely enough to tip my target's balance.

I'll weaken its shields and armor further to a total protection value of 400, you get the idea now. The throw has now a lethal force of 300 newtons!

The idea is that every power including pull and singularity gets some kind of force value to determine strength. This makes the minions targetable and the stronger foes immune in healthy state only. We won't be biotic gods like in the first game, but we won't be sitting ducks either.

I think this is the best solution. I posted something similar on page 2 of this thread but you've described it much better.

[Towik]

i played adept in ME1 and in this one , and i really dint played most of other class .



but what matt654321 says i have to say i agree with this person .

[Sailears]

I've just had a thought - biotic melee would be fun, and fits in with the lore. It could probably give a significant knockback (like throw), and would be useful on enemies that charge at you.

[borizzz]

Captain Crash wrote...

...because my adept is currently a soldier which is not what I intended.

Ive just finished my first playthrough and i must say the adept is a very wellmade class. On many missions i choose samara and miranda as my teammates and we just  warped, pulled and throwed our way through. Only used my sub-mg when my powers was on cooldown.