208 réponses à ce sujet

[FFLB]

[quote]matt654321 wrote...

[quote
You're mischaracterizing the discussion. At the point where defenses are gone, enemies are pretty much dead. The fact that you can do whatever you want to kill them just shows that biotics only working at this point is largely unhelpful.[/quote]

As I mentioned earlier, even if the enemy only has a sliver of health left, they are still just as effective in dealing damage as if they still had full HP and defenses.

[quote]

You didn't offer two cents - your argument consists of 'making all of the adepts' powers work on every enemy is OP, therefore nothing should be changed.' You only see black and white, but shades of grey are the key here.

Your bias is that you only respond to posters who argue that all powers should work on everything, then categorize the argument as if everyone is saying that.[/quote]

My "two cents" were my suggestions for improving the Adept, not my critique of your own suggestions. That's quite a generalization that you're making in regard to my view though. Maybe you should go back and re-read my entire first post in this thread as well as your quoted statements for context.

If I've had any bias in this thread, it's that I've only felt inclined to respond to your statements, since they're being addressed to me.

[quote]

You're the one who brought them up.[/quote]

So I was. I guess I would've gone back to check if it had mattered.

[quote]

Please refer to my big bolded statement a few posts up. I've answered this many times, but you simply refuse to listen.[/quote]

We have a difference in what we consider to be "fun" then. If you want to toss enemies around with your biotic prowess, play on a lower difficulty that allows that. Those who want a more strategic experience can play on higher levels. Yes, there's more HP on higher difficulties, but there's also more variation in regards to what abilities/weapons will be most effective against each defense. For some, that is what is fun. I've already stated what suggestions I think would make the game more fun with an Adept while remaining within the system that they have, so there's no need for me to repeat them here.

[quote]
There are so many things wrong with this statement that it's hard to decide where to begin.

1.) Soldiers were massively OP in the first game.

2.) Adepts were actually fun in ME1 on higher difficulties. Now, they are not.

3.) The devs changed things in ME2 specifically to avoid the issues present in ME1.

4.) Just because one class is better than another doesn't mean it's O.K. The classes should be at least somewhat balanced.

5.) The whole statement is completely irrelevant. We're not talking about if Adepts can get through insanity - they can. We're talking about how. Using the same power over and over again is boring and isn't how the class is meant to play.[/quote]

1) As the polls even show, most people will play as Soldier. When Bioware considers that a large portion of their audience may be made up of casual players, or non-shooter players, they're going to try and keep that class as simple as they can while making it effective. It being overpowered is a matter of opinion.

2) Again, it's a matter of opinion. Although it may have been fun to draw out all of the enemies into a chokepoint and then use a Singularity to trap them all, then a Lift, then a Singularity again, it certainly wasn't all that challenging. It just took more time to get through their defenses on the higher levels.

3) Which I have no problem with and have enjoyed.

4) Since I haven't played as all classes, I can only respond in regards to Soldiers and Adepts. They can both handle combat situations well, it's just that Soldiers can do it faster due to their weapons selection early on. In my opinion, there's not much of a problem of balance between the two, unless you consider speed to be an issue of balance.

5) Meant to play in whose opinion? It seems to be playing as Bioware designed it to. Adepts in ME1 were quite powerful due to the use of abilties that affected everything except for Drones. You could even lift a Colossus and render its offensive capabilities useless. Also, in regards to the Soldier, when given a choice between Adrenaline or Concussive Shot, I almost always choose Adrenaline. Does that make the gameplay boring? Not in my opinion.

[quote]

You did. Your initial argument was that having all biotic powers fully affect every enemy is OP. It took you this long to figure out that that's not what I was saying at all.[/quote]

My intial argument, although I wasn't aware that I was getting into an argument, consisted of me telling you that being able to keep armored foes in the air would make them much more vulnerable to the same tactics that ended up making the Adept gameplay rather unchallenging in the first game, although it would be amplified with the inclusion of the new abilities.

[quote]

It barely does anything, and again, it's not in line with how the adept is supposed to feel.[/quote]

When compared to ME1, no it's not inline with that. Wasn't that the point in making the change? If you'll take notice, I didn't address your suggestion for that in my first post, mainly because I feel that Push should at least stun or stagger enemies with defenses.

[quote]

Shockwave staggers them for a very brief amount of time, so little that it actually puts you at a disadvantage for using it. The damage it does is minimal. And again, just doing damage is the problem.[/quote]

If you've ever used Shockwave against the enemies that you're most likely to use them against, such as Husks, you'd notice that Shockwave destroys them when they're just at health, regardless of how much they have. Heck, even a Push destroys them. Armor's the only thing they've got going for them, and the only thing that makes them somewhat of a theat against Adepts. As others have said though, just using a shot or two from the Carnifex pistol takes down that armor. i can usually clear the armor off of 3-4 husks and then Shockwave to eliminate them all, and then repeat for the next wave.

[quote]

No kidding.[/quote]

...

[quote]

Not when the enemy has protection.[/quote]

Again, like some of us have already mentioned, if you focus on stripping off their protection before using those abilities, you can clear those enemies out with minimal effort. If you didn't have to strip off their protection, you'd clear them out with even less effort.

[quote]

Highly exaggerated. Having a 2.5 second pull will not insta-kill most enemies in the game, [/quote]

On my Adept, I did not use a high level Pull. I used level 2, and that was only because I needed two ranks to unlock Shockwave. At even half of the duration, 3.5 seconds, that would be more than enough time to set up a combo or for them to float off over an edge on their own.

[quote]and it definitely won't do that to the more dangerous enemies (whom I
assume you've never even tried that on, or else you'd know that they
don't float).[/quote]

And here I assumed we were just talking about the general humanoid enemies in the game, not the gigantic ones. It's a good change in gameplay that biotics no longer have such a powerful effect against large enemies, since I would lift Colossi in ME1 and then push them off edges. It would sometimes take more than one lift or push, but with the cooldown speeds, that wasn't a problem. At least in ME2, the giant robots are a threat that can no longer be neutralized with an early "lift". I have to actually avoid their fire now.

[quote]

The effects of Throw would be reduced, as per what I already said, so it still might not insta-kill. It would have a better chance to do so, but power combos are supposed to be useful.

Concussive Shot wouldn't work on protected enemies.

Exploding Warp already works on insanity with singularity, and it's proven to not me OP. I'm starting do doubt your claims of playing an adept at all at this point.[/quote]

Combos are supposed to be useful, which they are, but I would not want them making difficulty levels irrelevant.

If you change up Concussive Shot just for the Adept, that would affect other classes then rather than the one that we're discussing.

Exploding Warp, when used against enemies caught in a Singularity, it'll deal a lot of damage which will usually kill weaker enemies and forcefully expel their bodies as well as expelling the tougher enemies that are still alive. If you're doing this near ledges, those tougher enemies will most likely be launched off to insta-death. It's a powerful ability.

[quote]

I don't know what game you're playing, but there's hardly ever only 2-3 enemies to deal with at once. And you can't just wipe them all out immediately - even the AoE evolutions of the biotics only have a radius of 3 meters, which is tiny. Again, you can only see things in black and white, you can't find the comfortable spot in the middle because you're too shortsighted (and seemly don't have much experience with the game).[/quote]

Most encounters start with 3-4 enemies with each one being replaced. Those replacements are the waves. I can see how it can give the illusion that you're actually facing more than 3-4 enemies at a time though. Again, this is for most encounters, not all of them.

[quote]
You didn't disagree - you didn't even understand it. Your ignorance keeps you happy (ignorance actually is bliss, I guess), lucky you. However, you continue to not make sense, and everyone can see that.

[/quote]

Just on a hunch, I checked the system that your game is on. Surprise, surprise. I'm assuming that when you're on LIVE, most players who can, end up muting you. Being verbally abusive does not make you better than those you're attempting to abuse. My sympathies to those playes who have to endure your comments.

[Average Gatsby]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Sorry, but could you provide a video of singularity holding enemies in place who have  with shields/ barriers/armor? On insanity, I mean.

I hope you are not talking about the 1-1.5 second pause, because that is not crowd control. Singularity is the class skill of the adept and should be somewhat effective.

Because if singularity actually holds  enemies in place my adept was broken. I finished with him yesterday or I'd take him for another spin.

Also, could you show a video of an adept clearing levels as fast as other classes on insanity? Thanks.

AuraofMana wrote...

You people fail at knowing what
balance means.  Adept being viable in Insanity is in no way, shape or
form, implies that the class is on par with the other classes.  It is much, much harder
to beat the game as an Adept on Insanity due to the fact that every man
and his dog (varrens) has armor, shield, and/or barrier.  When those
are in place, Adept CANNOT use anything other than Warp.

I am just going to call an enemy with armor, shield, and/or barrier a PROTECTED ENEMY.

Someone
mentioned that Singularity DOES work on protected enemy, albeit it
deals no damage and doesn't hold them as long.  No one has yet to
confirm this.

So I'm going to start a new thread with this one but because people keep mentioning this, I feel like I need to shut this down once and for all:

Singularity v Everyone (by everyone I mean barrier and armor opponents. Shield is in another vid but it works the same)

I also don't believe its power makes shockwave or pull useless, but makes them far more situational. I know I probably won't be using pull. And I don't believe adepts should have anti-shield abilities. That's what the SMG, Geth Assault rifle, and Energy drain are for. No class except the sentinel has an answer to everything. Engineers soldiers, and infiltrators have no anti barrier. Vanguard is such a radically different playstyle that its not really anti-anything, because on insanity its essentially one sort of tactic. Anyway, theres my two cents. And there's your proof.

[matt654321]

[quote]FFLB wrote...

[quote]matt654321 wrote...

[quote
You're mischaracterizing the discussion. At the point where defenses are gone, enemies are pretty much dead. The fact that you can do whatever you want to kill them just shows that biotics only working at this point is largely unhelpful.[/quote]

As I mentioned earlier, even if the enemy only has a sliver of health left, they are still just as effective in dealing damage as if they still had full HP and defenses.

[quote]

You didn't offer two cents - your argument consists of 'making all of the adepts' powers work on every enemy is OP, therefore nothing should be changed.' You only see black and white, but shades of grey are the key here.

Your bias is that you only respond to posters who argue that all powers should work on everything, then categorize the argument as if everyone is saying that.[/quote]

My "two cents" were my suggestions for improving the Adept, not my critique of your own suggestions. That's quite a generalization that you're making in regard to my view though. Maybe you should go back and re-read my entire first post in this thread as well as your quoted statements for context.

If I've had any bias in this thread, it's that I've only felt inclined to respond to your statements, since they're being addressed to me.

[quote]

You're the one who brought them up.[/quote]

So I was. I guess I would've gone back to check if it had mattered.

[quote]

Please refer to my big bolded statement a few posts up. I've answered this many times, but you simply refuse to listen.[/quote]

We have a difference in what we consider to be "fun" then. If you want to toss enemies around with your biotic prowess, play on a lower difficulty that allows that. Those who want a more strategic experience can play on higher levels. Yes, there's more HP on higher difficulties, but there's also more variation in regards to what abilities/weapons will be most effective against each defense. For some, that is what is fun. I've already stated what suggestions I think would make the game more fun with an Adept while remaining within the system that they have, so there's no need for me to repeat them here.

[quote]
There are so many things wrong with this statement that it's hard to decide where to begin.

1.) Soldiers were massively OP in the first game.

2.) Adepts were actually fun in ME1 on higher difficulties. Now, they are not.

3.) The devs changed things in ME2 specifically to avoid the issues present in ME1.

4.) Just because one class is better than another doesn't mean it's O.K. The classes should be at least somewhat balanced.

5.) The whole statement is completely irrelevant. We're not talking about if Adepts can get through insanity - they can. We're talking about how. Using the same power over and over again is boring and isn't how the class is meant to play.[/quote]

1) As the polls even show, most people will play as Soldier. When Bioware considers that a large portion of their audience may be made up of casual players, or non-shooter players, they're going to try and keep that class as simple as they can while making it effective. It being overpowered is a matter of opinion.

2) Again, it's a matter of opinion. Although it may have been fun to draw out all of the enemies into a chokepoint and then use a Singularity to trap them all, then a Lift, then a Singularity again, it certainly wasn't all that challenging. It just took more time to get through their defenses on the higher levels.

3) Which I have no problem with and have enjoyed.

4) Since I haven't played as all classes, I can only respond in regards to Soldiers and Adepts. They can both handle combat situations well, it's just that Soldiers can do it faster due to their weapons selection early on. In my opinion, there's not much of a problem of balance between the two, unless you consider speed to be an issue of balance.

5) Meant to play in whose opinion? It seems to be playing as Bioware designed it to. Adepts in ME1 were quite powerful due to the use of abilties that affected everything except for Drones. You could even lift a Colossus and render its offensive capabilities useless. Also, in regards to the Soldier, when given a choice between Adrenaline or Concussive Shot, I almost always choose Adrenaline. Does that make the gameplay boring? Not in my opinion.

[quote]

You did. Your initial argument was that having all biotic powers fully affect every enemy is OP. It took you this long to figure out that that's not what I was saying at all.[/quote]

My intial argument, although I wasn't aware that I was getting into an argument, consisted of me telling you that being able to keep armored foes in the air would make them much more vulnerable to the same tactics that ended up making the Adept gameplay rather unchallenging in the first game, although it would be amplified with the inclusion of the new abilities.

[quote]

It barely does anything, and again, it's not in line with how the adept is supposed to feel.[/quote]

When compared to ME1, no it's not inline with that. Wasn't that the point in making the change? If you'll take notice, I didn't address your suggestion for that in my first post, mainly because I feel that Push should at least stun or stagger enemies with defenses.

[quote]

Shockwave staggers them for a very brief amount of time, so little that it actually puts you at a disadvantage for using it. The damage it does is minimal. And again, just doing damage is the problem.[/quote]

If you've ever used Shockwave against the enemies that you're most likely to use them against, such as Husks, you'd notice that Shockwave destroys them when they're just at health, regardless of how much they have. Heck, even a Push destroys them. Armor's the only thing they've got going for them, and the only thing that makes them somewhat of a theat against Adepts. As others have said though, just using a shot or two from the Carnifex pistol takes down that armor. i can usually clear the armor off of 3-4 husks and then Shockwave to eliminate them all, and then repeat for the next wave.

[quote]

No kidding.[/quote]

...

[quote]

Not when the enemy has protection.[/quote]

Again, like some of us have already mentioned, if you focus on stripping off their protection before using those abilities, you can clear those enemies out with minimal effort. If you didn't have to strip off their protection, you'd clear them out with even less effort.

[quote]

Highly exaggerated. Having a 2.5 second pull will not insta-kill most enemies in the game, [/quote]

On my Adept, I did not use a high level Pull. I used level 2, and that was only because I needed two ranks to unlock Shockwave. At even half of the duration, 3.5 seconds, that would be more than enough time to set up a combo or for them to float off over an edge on their own.

[quote]and it definitely won't do that to the more dangerous enemies (whom I
assume you've never even tried that on, or else you'd know that they
don't float).[/quote]

And here I assumed we were just talking about the general humanoid enemies in the game, not the gigantic ones. It's a good change in gameplay that biotics no longer have such a powerful effect against large enemies, since I would lift Colossi in ME1 and then push them off edges. It would sometimes take more than one lift or push, but with the cooldown speeds, that wasn't a problem. At least in ME2, the giant robots are a threat that can no longer be neutralized with an early "lift". I have to actually avoid their fire now.

[quote]

The effects of Throw would be reduced, as per what I already said, so it still might not insta-kill. It would have a better chance to do so, but power combos are supposed to be useful.

Concussive Shot wouldn't work on protected enemies.

Exploding Warp already works on insanity with singularity, and it's proven to not me OP. I'm starting do doubt your claims of playing an adept at all at this point.[/quote]

Combos are supposed to be useful, which they are, but I would not want them making difficulty levels irrelevant.

If you change up Concussive Shot just for the Adept, that would affect other classes then rather than the one that we're discussing.

Exploding Warp, when used against enemies caught in a Singularity, it'll deal a lot of damage which will usually kill weaker enemies and forcefully expel their bodies as well as expelling the tougher enemies that are still alive. If you're doing this near ledges, those tougher enemies will most likely be launched off to insta-death. It's a powerful ability.

[quote]

I don't know what game you're playing, but there's hardly ever only 2-3 enemies to deal with at once. And you can't just wipe them all out immediately - even the AoE evolutions of the biotics only have a radius of 3 meters, which is tiny. Again, you can only see things in black and white, you can't find the comfortable spot in the middle because you're too shortsighted (and seemly don't have much experience with the game).[/quote]

Most encounters start with 3-4 enemies with each one being replaced. Those replacements are the waves. I can see how it can give the illusion that you're actually facing more than 3-4 enemies at a time though. Again, this is for most encounters, not all of them.

[quote]
You didn't disagree - you didn't even understand it. Your ignorance keeps you happy (ignorance actually is bliss, I guess), lucky you. However, you continue to not make sense, and everyone can see that.

[/quote]

Just on a hunch, I checked the system that your game is on. Surprise, surprise. I'm assuming that when you're on LIVE, most players who can, end up muting you. Being verbally abusive does not make you better than those you're attempting to abuse. My sympathies to those playes who have to endure your comments.
[/quote]


I've responded to all of these points already (and so have many others). I'm not going to bother talking in circles with you. If you want to wallow in your own ignorance, go ahead.

(And lol at more fail logic - I'm on xbox, so no one talks to me? Get real.)

Modifié par matt654321, 08 février 2010 - 06:46 .

[FFLB]

I've responded to all of these points already (and so have many others). I'm not going to bother talking in circles with you. If you want to wallow in your own ignorance, go ahead.

(And lol at more fail logic - I'm on xbox, so no one talks to me? Get real.)

It's about time you ended this. Oh, and do take a look at your own situation rather than attempting to determine mine. Never had anyone attempt to insult me in every post while attempting to make their point.

This does require somewhat of a leap of logic. I'll help. Xbox... whiny kids... older players demanding mute options. Make sense?

Modifié par FFLB, 08 février 2010 - 06:56 .

[matt654321]

FFLB wrote...

It's about time you ended this. Oh, and do take a look at your own situation rather than attempting to determine mine. Never had anyone attempt to insult me in every post while attempting to make their point.

It's funny that you still haven't realized that most people don't agree with you. Probably because you aren't actually reading. It was the problem then and it's the problem now, which is why a 'discussion' with you is pointless.

FFLB wrote...
This does require somewhat of a leap of logic. I'll help. Xbox... whiny kids... older players demanding mute options. Make sense?

Yes, it's a leap. As in, you're jumping to conclusions - you assert that with absolutely no proof (and I'll tell you right now, that doesn't happen). I wouldn't expect you to be able to recognize that.

Maybe I'll just play along: WOW UR RITE I H4S XBOX I MUST B St00PiD KiDz!!!!!!!!!!

Modifié par matt654321, 08 février 2010 - 07:51 .

[matt654321]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

TheLostGenius wrote...

 I disagree. If you give your adept Reave and control groups with heavy singularity the Adept is a very potent class. Beat the game on Insanity with an adept with little difficulty.

The issue is not can an adept beat the game. It is can an adept have fun while beating the game. Spamming warp over and over and over is not fun. The adept's other biotic powers should be able to be used consistantly and effectively.

Oh, and Reave is  BONUS power for an adept. A bonus should be just icing on the cake, not a necessary power. My adept took it too but I really did not have much fun playing him. I enjoyed the cut scenes and such but the gameplay was lacking because of the inability to do much but warp spam.

There is little reason to cast pull/push/shockwave once the enemy defences are down.

It's getting annoying that this has to be repeated every single page. Are people really this bad at reading?

[Captain Crash]

Average Gatsby wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Sorry, but could you provide a video of singularity holding enemies in place who have  with shields/ barriers/armor? On insanity, I mean.

I hope you are not talking about the 1-1.5 second pause, because that is not crowd control. Singularity is the class skill of the adept and should be somewhat effective.

Because if singularity actually holds  enemies in place my adept was broken. I finished with him yesterday or I'd take him for another spin.

Also, could you show a video of an adept clearing levels as fast as other classes on insanity? Thanks.

AuraofMana wrote...

You people fail at knowing what
balance means.  Adept being viable in Insanity is in no way, shape or
form, implies that the class is on par with the other classes.  It is much, much harder
to beat the game as an Adept on Insanity due to the fact that every man
and his dog (varrens) has armor, shield, and/or barrier.  When those
are in place, Adept CANNOT use anything other than Warp.

I am just going to call an enemy with armor, shield, and/or barrier a PROTECTED ENEMY.

Someone
mentioned that Singularity DOES work on protected enemy, albeit it
deals no damage and doesn't hold them as long.  No one has yet to
confirm this.

So I'm going to start a new thread with this one but because people keep mentioning this, I feel like I need to shut this down once and for all:

Singularity v Everyone (by everyone I mean barrier and armor opponents. Shield is in another vid but it works the same)

I also don't believe its power makes shockwave or pull useless, but makes them far more situational. I know I probably won't be using pull. And I don't believe adepts should have anti-shield abilities. That's what the SMG, Geth Assault rifle, and Energy drain are for. No class except the sentinel has an answer to everything. Engineers soldiers, and infiltrators have no anti barrier. Vanguard is such a radically different playstyle that its not really anti-anything, because on insanity its essentially one sort of tactic. Anyway, theres my two cents. And there's your proof.

Wait all it does is hold one enemy in a single spot.   That not what the effect of singularity should be.  I dont even think you had two people caught in the power in that video.  Its the same later on, even if you level up the power all it does is make an enemy slightly immobile for a period unless they only have health.   Sort of pointless really.

Thats not what singularity is intended to do in my opinion.  Yes they had to down tone it from ME but not to the state its in now! 

[FFLB]

matt654321 wrote...
It's funny that you still haven't realized that most people don't agree with you. Probably because you aren't actually reading. It was the problem then and it's the problem now, which is why a 'discussion' with you is pointless.

I think most people just haven't realized exactly what the Adept's abilities can do. It takes a bit of experimentation to figure out the less noticeable effects. Experimenting with it is fun in its own way, and I'm sure that my own posts as well as that of others in here have shed light to other players about certain effects that aren't immediately noticeable or blatantly stated.

Anyway, just because a few people express agreement with you does not mean that your suggestions are the best ones and without flaw. If you want to see how many actually agree with your suggestions, just make a poll. As it has been throughout this thread, I'm sure that the combative tone of your responses to some people have caused others to back off since they don't want to be drawn in. I know that I wouldn't have wanted my time wasted by willingly jumping into, what you consider to be, a "discussion" with yourself, but unfortunately I realized too late that you take poorly to criticism and disagreement.

The short of it, people don't want to jump in when you'll just try to jump down their throat too. If you check out other threads, you'll get a more balanced view.

Yes, it's a leap. As in, you're jumping to conclusions - you assert that with absolutely no proof (and I'll tell you right now, that doesn't happen). I wouldn't expect you to be able to recognize that.

Bolded for hypocrisy. Let me know if I need to explain this one too.

[Lvl20DM]

@ matt654321: more than one argument is being made in this thread. Some people are saying the Adept is bad, while others are saying it isn't fun. The thread title talks about improving the class - most are reading this as making it more powerful. I don't think it's a reading comprehension issue.



The biggest problem with the Adept is that shockwave and throw are too situational. We all understand that Warp and Singularity are very powerful, and that you will be using them way more than the other powers, which seems wrong.



I'm not entirely sure that a few bugs aren't lingering in ME 2. I've noticed numerous people say that throw and shockwave should stagger or stun an oppoent with defenses up. I've seen those power stagger an enemy, and I've also seem them do absolutely nothing. It's strangely inconsistent.

[matt654321]

FFLB wrote...

matt654321 wrote...
It's funny that you still haven't realized that most people don't agree with you. Probably because you aren't actually reading. It was the problem then and it's the problem now, which is why a 'discussion' with you is pointless.

I think most people just haven't realized exactly what the Adept's abilities can do. It takes a bit of experimentation to figure out the less noticeable effects. Experimenting with it is fun in its own way, and I'm sure that my own posts as well as that of others in here have shed light to other players about certain effects that aren't immediately noticeable or blatantly stated.

Anyway, just because a few people express agreement with you does not mean that your suggestions are the best ones and without flaw. If you want to see how many actually agree with your suggestions, just make a poll. As it has been throughout this thread, I'm sure that the combative tone of your responses to some people have caused others to back off since they don't want to be drawn in. I know that I wouldn't have wanted my time wasted by willingly jumping into, what you consider to be, a "discussion" with yourself, but unfortunately I realized too late that you take poorly to criticism and disagreement.

The short of it, people don't want to jump in when you'll just try to jump down their throat too. If you check out other threads, you'll get a more balanced view.

Yes, it's a leap. As in, you're jumping to conclusions - you assert that with absolutely no proof (and I'll tell you right now, that doesn't happen). I wouldn't expect you to be able to recognize that.

Bolded for hypocrisy. Let me know if I need to explain this one too.

I'll play by your rules. No, Pull and Shockwave do not cause the blue glowy levitate effect on armored, shielded, or barrier'ed foes. Stop claiming that they do. I just went back and reread all of your posts and that's exactly what you said.

Lvl20DM wrote...

@ matt654321: more than one argument is
being made in this thread. Some people are saying the Adept is bad,
while others are saying it isn't fun. The thread title talks about
improving the class - most are reading this as making it more powerful.
I don't think it's a reading comprehension issue.

The biggest
problem with the Adept is that shockwave and throw are too situational.
We all understand that Warp and Singularity are very powerful, and that
you will be using them way more than the other powers, which seems
wrong.

The problem is that he's saying that that's what everyone is saying, which is simply false. On top of that, most people have moved away from that argument a while ago. I can't help it if he doesn't actually read before he responds.

Modifié par matt654321, 08 février 2010 - 10:41 .

[FFLB]

matt654321 wrote...

I'll play by your rules. No, Pull and Shockwave do not cause the blue glowy levitate effect on armored, shielded, or barrier'ed foes. Stop claiming that they do. I just went back and reread all of your posts and that's exactly what you said.

Since I apparently "can't read", could you do me the favor of quoting it exactly and pointing out the page that it appears on?

The problem is that he's saying that that's what everyone is saying, which is simply false. On top of that, most people have moved away from that argument a while ago. I can't help it if he doesn't actually read before he responds.

Again, with my "reading problems", please give an exact quote as well as page where I stated that "everyone is saying that".

And yes, this thread would have been more useful if it wasn't derailed and filled with a rather negative and angry vibe. If someone would like to continue with more suggestions, please do so. I've already given my suggestion of adding environmental objects that can be affected and wielded offensively by Biotics. We see chairs being hurled in cutscenes yet we can't actually do the hurling. I can understand the potential level design drawbacks to this, since I nearly blocked a necessary path with a large object after using Singularity in ME1, but sometimes you've gotta take the pros with the cons, such as the bug of occasionally getting stuck on crates or other elevated objects.

Modifié par FFLB, 08 février 2010 - 10:52 .

[matt654321]

FFLB wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

I'll play by your rules. No, Pull and Shockwave do not cause the blue glowy levitate effect on armored, shielded, or barrier'ed foes. Stop claiming that they do. I just went back and reread all of your posts and that's exactly what you said.

Since I apparently "can't read", could you do me the favor of quoting it exactly and pointing out the page that it appears on?

The problem is that he's saying that that's what everyone is saying, which is simply false. On top of that, most people have moved away from that argument a while ago. I can't help it if he doesn't actually read before he responds.

Again, with my "reading problems", please give an exact quote as well as page where I stated that "everyone is saying that".

And yes, this thread would have been more useful if it wasn't derailed and filled with a rather negative and angry vibe. If someone would like to continue with more suggestions, please do so. I've already given my suggestion of adding environmental objects that can be affected and wielded offensively by Biotics. We see chairs being hurled in cutscenes yet we can't actually do the hurling. I can understand the potential level design drawbacks to this, since I nearly blocked a necessary path with a large object after using Singularity in ME1, but sometimes you've gotta take the pros with the cons, such as the bug of occasionally getting stuck on crates or other elevated objects.

I spelled it out for you several times, literally reposting exactly what I said.

No, the engineer doesn't get Tech Armor. Stop saying that it does.

[FFLB]

matt654321 wrote...

I spelled it out for you several times, literally reposting exactly what I said.

No, the engineer doesn't get Tech Armor. Stop saying that it does.

... can I take that to mean that you'd like to stop with this? Most people would've just agreed to disagree though. The meaning is more clear and it leaves out the attempts at ridicule.

[matt654321]

FFLB wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

I spelled it out for you several times, literally reposting exactly what I said.

No, the engineer doesn't get Tech Armor. Stop saying that it does.

... can I take that to mean that you'd like to stop with this? Most people would've just agreed to disagree though. The meaning is more clear and it leaves out the attempts at ridicule.

No attempt to ridicule. Just playing by your rules. This is the level of discouse that you're at.

And no, you can't have two loyalty talents at the same time, so you might want to stop saying that.

[FFLB]

matt654321 wrote...

No attempt to ridicule. Just playing by your rules. This is the level of discouse that you're at.

And no, you can't have two loyalty talents at the same time, so you might want to stop saying that.

... and here I thought you were becoming more amicable. Apparently there can be no differences of opinion with you. I must say though, for someone who makes claims that I'm his lesser, you certainly can't let my responses go by unanswered. Should I perhaps feel honored that a being such as yourself takes the time to respond to my lowly and obviously senseless posts? Perhaps if XBox and PC game servers are ever combined, I'll be forced to bow down to your pwnsomeness. Until then, we'll just have to disagree on the forums since there is currently no "mute" or "squelch" available to prevent otherwise.

[matt654321]

FFLB wrote...
... and here I thought you were becoming more amicable. Apparently there can be no differences of opinion with you. I must say though, for someone who makes claims that I'm his lesser, you certainly can't let my responses go by unanswered. Should I perhaps feel honored that a being such as yourself takes the time to respond to my lowly and obviously senseless posts? Perhaps if XBox and PC game servers are ever combined, I'll be forced to bow down to your pwnsomeness. Until then, we'll just have to disagree on the forums since there is currently no "mute" or "squelch" available to prevent otherwise.

There is no difference of opinion. You haven't reached the level yet to have a discussion, so opinions aren't even a factor. Here's a summary of our conversation:

You: Making all of Adepts' powers work fully on everyone is OP

Me: Yes. Luckily, that's not what I or a bunch of others are suggesting. We're saying to reduce their effectiveness and have them work only on specific defenses. There are other solutions too.

You: That's not what you said.

Me: Yes it is. Look, here's the post that says it.

You: No it isn't.

Me: Fine, if you refuse to even read what I and others are saying, then we can't really have a conversation.

You: You're a jerk.

Me: I'll play down to your level too. You're also a jerk.

[Lycidas]

matt654321 wrote...

I made  a topic suggesting these fixes a bit ago and the responses were overwhelming positive. I think they're good fixes.


I fully understand that biotics needed to be changed in Mass Effect 2 - keeping enemies afloat indefinitely with singularity + lift was overpowered and uninteresting. However, having the control effects of biotics be completely ineffectual on defended enemies on higher difficulties is also uninteresting - it relegates adepts to being forced to spam warp continuously on enemies, which is not what I had in mind when creating a biotic. I suggest the following changes, which I believe work well within your system to preserve balance while still allowing biotics to be interesting while not overpowered.

Pull - Allow it to work on armored enemies, but for only half of its duration. Heavy Pull maintains its full duration against armored foes.

This change allows biotics to have a decent option against armor besides mindlessly spamming warp, but it still keeps armor relevant. It also makes heavy pull a viable choice. This change also makes sense according to game lore (there's no reason for armor to fully defend against altering the enemy's mass). The best thing about this change is that it makes pull+warp into a useful and fun combination rather than being gimmicky and ineffective.

Remember that pull does not do much damage to armor by itself. You'll still need allies to shear off armor, making pull not an answer to armor in and of itself.

Throw - Knocks down armored enemies. Heavy throw sends enemies half of the distance.

Keeps thow relevant as an emergency option to stop charging krogans and the like, which adepts previously had almost no answer for. Since it doesn't send them very far, however, you still need to watch out for them. Again, makes heavy throw a viable option.

Shockwave - Works against shielded foes. Heavy shockwave deals damage to shields.

Adepts need a response against geth rushes. This version of shockwave will buy the adept some time, but won't solve the problem by itself - you still need to kill the enemies, as they'll get up eventually.

Warp - Deals 1.5x damage against barriers. Heavy warp deals double damage against barriers.

The achievement for warp is specifically against barriers, so I figured that warp is supposed to do something special against them. Enemy vanguards are still very dangerous, as the adept has no way to slow them down. With this version of warp, they can strip off their barrier quickly then throw them to buy time.

Singularity - Same changes as pull.


This system, IMO, allows biotics to do what they're supposed to do rather than being wholly ineffective on higher difficulty levels while still preserving balance and working within Mass Effect 2's typed defense system. Biotics would provide control but wouldn't be able to destroy enemy defenses - you'd still need to rely on teammates or your bonus powers for that. These changes would made adepts fun and playable on hardcore and insanity, but still balanced enough that the game doesn't devolve into spamming biotics and shooting in between like in Mass Effect 1.

This!
In Addition I think the cooldown system needs some tuning for all the classes. IMHO there should be a short global cooldown like 2 sec and an individual skill timer.
Let me give an example:
- Global cooldown 2 sec
- Pull cooldown 3 sec
- Singularity cooldown 4.5 sec

You start using Singularity now you have a 2 sec cooldown on all skills. After that you can use any skill but Singularity which still has 2.5 sec of its skill timer up.

This way you could use pull 2 seconds after you used warp but a warp warp combo would still take as long as it takes now to perform. On the other side the 2 sec global cooldown would still prevent skill spamming.
Now later each class could have a skill that does not trigger global cooldown at all and is kind of weak on its own but devastating in combination with other skills (but thats not for now).

[Captain Crash]

Lycidas wrote...

This!
In Addition I think the cooldown system needs some tuning for all the classes. IMHO there should be a short global cooldown like 2 sec and an individual skill timer.
Let me give an example:
- Global cooldown 2 sec
- Pull cooldown 3 sec
- Singularity cooldown 4.5 sec

You start using Singularity now you have a 2 sec cooldown on all skills. After that you can use any skill but Singularity which still has 2.5 sec of its skill timer up.

This way you could use pull 2 seconds after you used warp but a warp warp combo would still take as long as it takes now to perform. On the other side the 2 sec global cooldown would still prevent skill spamming.
Now later each class could have a skill that does not trigger global cooldown at all and is kind of weak on its own but devastating in combination with other skills (but thats not for now).

Timers arnt to bad at the higher levels.  However at the lower levels the wait for usage is tedious! So much so that if you want biotic combinations you need a second biotic. Which I think most people agree defies the point and your timers certainly agree with that!

[garrison82]

And here was me literally just thinking ....'Hang on, the Adept on the harder setting is going to suck.... surely not......I wonder if anyone else has thoght about this?'

I love these forums.

Thanks for saving me a whole bcket of time and greaf everyone.

g

[matt654321]

garrison82 wrote...

And here was me literally just thinking ....'Hang on, the Adept on the harder setting is going to suck.... surely not......I wonder if anyone else has thoght about this?'

I love these forums.

Thanks for saving me a whole bcket of time and greaf everyone.

g

They don't suck, they're just a lot less entertaining.

I like the small global cooldown/large spam cooldown idea. Makes it so that it's optimal to mix up your powers.

[krylo]

I don't know guys.

Seems to me this isn't a hard thing to fix. We can just look at the flavor/canon for how powers work and derive an easy balancing solution right there.

Follow me here:

Biotics work in newtons. A newton is equal to about ten kilograms (little under) in earth gravity.

Ok, now, we give everything a base weight. Then we go ahead and say that armor adds x weight per point (probably a smallish amount if we want to stick with flavor), and then shields/biotic barriers also add x weight per point (probably a larger amount if we want to stick with flavor as they are mass effect fields themselves).

So, let's say a dude weighs 100kg base, has 100 armor, making him 200kg, and then 100 shields making him, oh, let's say 500kg.

If the impact force of the biotics is less than the modified weight of the opponent it is ineffective. If it's around the same area as his weight it staggers him. If it's considerably higher it throws affects him as per normal, with duration/velocity/etc. depending upon how much it overpowers him.

Whether it's a viable fix for ME2 depends fully on whether or not the powers actually run on physics or on some kind of magic, but I'm honestly a bit surprised this isn't just the default. It's how flavor explains it, and our powers are explained in units of force not damage or purely abstract terms.

Modifié par krylo, 10 février 2010 - 05:32 .

[OnyxBMW]

krylo wrote...

I don't know guys.

Seems to me this isn't a hard thing to fix. We can just look at the flavor/canon for how powers work and derive an easy balancing solution right there.

Follow me here:

Biotics work in newtons. A newton is equal to about ten kilograms (little under) in earth gravity.

Ok, now, we give everything a base weight. Then we go ahead and say that armor adds x weight per point (probably a smallish amount if we want to stick with flavor), and then shields/biotic barriers also add x weight per point (probably a larger amount if we want to stick with flavor as they are mass effect fields themselves).

So, let's say a dude weighs 100kg base, has 100 armor, making him 200kg, and then 100 shields making him, oh, let's say 500kg.

If the impact force of the biotics is less than the modified weight of the opponent it is ineffective. If it's around the same area as his weight it staggers him. If it's considerably higher it throws affects him as per normal, with duration/velocity/etc. depending upon how much it overpowers him.

Whether it's a viable fix for ME2 depends fully on whether or not the powers actually run on physics or on some kind of magic, but I'm honestly a bit surprised this isn't just the default. It's how flavor explains it, and our powers are explained in units of force not damage or purely abstract terms.

I tend to agree with this, except for one thing:  Shields and Barriers, both operating on a similar fundamental property (mass effect fields being used to counter fast-moving objects) should directly oppose biotics, and should be damaged by all biotics to counter and absorb the force the biotic is attempting to impart on the host.  It'd be as if 2 negative polar magnets were forced to hit each other.  They would both attempt to repel each other.  Though in this case, one would destroy itself on the other, be it the shield on the throw, or the throw on the shield.  All biotics should ergo damage shields/barriers to varying degress pending the force applied (a heavy throw should be particularly damaging, a pull by comparison should be akin to a DoT in essence, and weaker in general).

To that end, however, armor brings a completely different conundrum to work.  Armor adds mass to the target, which means biotic effectiveness (warp excluded) would be impacted due to an increased mass.  The same force on increased mass would ergo have less acceleration on the target.  Due to an ignorance on my part in how Armor exactly works in the mass effect lore, I can't say if armor even could completely negate mass effect fields (due to absorption), but I will say:  It's stupid that they can't, since if you got hit by 1200 newtons, the time it takes to transfer the force over, you can displace it some, but not completely, and the armor would be forced backwards, same with the person in it.

From there, I can only say, I wish biotics had a limited effect on armored targets akin to their original role.

To that end, all I can say is:

Warp should be kept as is, but be strengthened to damage shields as well at an increased effect, pending unless someone can show lore (that I could not find) that shields are not mass effect fields.  If they are, buff warp to treat it as if a barrier.

Throw should be able to throw around armored targets at reduced effect, pending how the armor works and how much mass it gives.  Half effectiveness if it doubles the mass of the target, which it very, very easily could, and increased moreso if the armor has some form of absorption property that can increase the time over which the force is applied, mitigating how fast the force is imparted, obviously hindering the effect.  Regardless, it should damage shields and barriers, imparting no effect.

Pull should have minimal affect on both shields/barriers and armors.  It should still damage shields and abrriers, but not nearly as severely due to how long a timespan the force is applied, and how limited the force is.  Due to its limited upwards force, the affect it should have on armor is either a snare or a very mild lifting off the ground.  If you weigh less, you have less traction to help accelerate you forward, which means you would, theoretically, slip more when moving or have to move slower lest you kick off and float for a bit.  Firing heavy guns could also impart a knockback for extra giggles, but light guns might just need a reduced firing speed.  The logic behind this is: armor is heavy, and pull doesn't impart much force, barely lifting targets a few meters over its entire duration (pending rank, really).  A snare component on heavier targets would make more sense at this case.

Singularity should have a constant draining affect on shields and barriers, and either outright stop targets that are armored, or heavily snare them, pending mass and if gravity can overpower its force (I've no clue how strong singularity is, so).  Once the mass of the target decreases past a certain threshold, the singularity should override gravity and pull targets into it.  Singularity should be given a newton force to help players see how effective it is.

Shockwave should work akin to throw and warp, increased affect on shields, kept the same on barriers, and only impart a knockdown/throw if they force overrides the mass of the target versus gravity.

[doubleaction321]

I wanted a "magnitude" system for biotics.



Each level of protection an enemy has (shields, armor, barriers, whatever) provides them with a "magnitude" of complete protection from biotics. They need to be at their Health for you to biotic them. The goal is to use biotics to rip through their thin shell to the gooey, delicious CC-able center. Each biotic adds one "magnitude", essentially stripping away a layer of defense.



In example: You face down an Eclipse merc packing a Barrier. You cast Throw on him. His Barrier protects him, and the Throw does nothing. But you've now stacked that biotic on him, and as far as his biotic defenses are concerned, he's down to his health. You cast Pull. With his biotic defenses breached, he is rendered helplessly in the air.



I think there's promise for tactical choices in this type of system. Maybe you spec your Pull to breach an additional layer of protection. Maybe enemy Barriers provide them with two levels of protection instead of one. Maybe damaging powers (Warp) don't normally add "magnitudes", but you spec it so that it does.

[Lycidas]

It is really sad to see how many people fail to realize what the problem actually is.

Yes we know Adepts can play and finish the game on insanity.
Yes we know Warp is effective against armor and barriers.
Yes we know a Singualrity can hold protected foes for a couple of seconds.

The problem is this leaves us with two options to actually play 90% the game on higher difficulties.
1.) Hide and spam Warp again and again...
2.) Spam Sigularity and shoot

However both ways are not what most of us expected the class to play like nor what BioWare advertised the class to be about. The Adept is not defined by one active ability and lots of passives + guns like the Soldier or Infilitrator. The class is (or should be) all about combat control with lots of different skills and even combinations of skills. Thats why we don't even get a passive ammo skill at all.
So yes the class can be played at higher difficulties but it CAN NOT be played they way it is intendet to be played and thus is less fun.

Modifié par Lycidas, 12 février 2010 - 12:53 .

[CutterJohn1]

The problem with biotics is, aside from warp which is just a standard damage spell, they mostly just move people. This isn't bad, but its not great either, because the movement is lazy, uninspired.

Basically, a biotic should be like the jedi in the Jedi Knight/Jedi Academy games. Biotics should absolutely tear some **** up. Singularity gently floats people around. No. Singularity should rip them apart from tidal forces. Throw should splatter them against walls, not act like you hit them with an overly large pillow. Warp? Ick. Gimme force lightning any day. Lift? Hear mister bad guy, let me gently float you up.. No! Don't call it lift, call it launch, as in launch that guy into the stratosphere. Slam? I want bones crunched. 

If you want biotics to be fun, you have to up the violence factor. Stop treating it like a gentle force that politely asks if I may, perchance, lift you up? That is if its ok with you, mr bad guy. Don't you worry one bit though, I'll be gentle.

Yes, all of this would make Biotics OP, so naturally you would need to go back to the long cooldown timers in order to balance it. This is fine.

Modifié par CutterJohn1, 12 février 2010 - 01:18 .