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[themaxzero]

Average Gatsby wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

Average Gatsby wrote...

Just some food for thought. No judgements:

Adepts Don't Need Guns

Like i said, not trying to enter on one side of a debate or another. But I wanted to submit this as evidence for all sides to use.

But, but, you are not using Pull and Push and therefore its all completely invalid and Adepts suck!

Just getting in early.

Haha. Its like a new version of FIRST. Pull is used alot. What's push?

Heh sorry Lift, too many Star Wars games.

Modifié par themaxzero, 13 février 2010 - 11:26 .

[screwoffreg]

I just hope that being an Adept pays off more in ME 3. Combat for pretty much every class OTHER than a pure biotic is pretty fast paced and tactical. As an adept, I basically hid and threw singularity and warp repeatedly. I imagine if the level limit goes up to level 60 in ME 3, then we might get new, class specific high level powers. I am hoping for god-like powers for those who remained "pure" biotics! a biotic wind!!!!

[GCreature]

Average Gatsby wrote...

I think I have a solution for Bioware, and it involves looking at the Engineer class. I think if they set up the Adept like the Engineer, not in abilities but in what those abilities mean in game, we'd all have a fun time without changing armor, shields, or anything like that:

Engineer has:                                                           Adept has:
Tech Mastery - cooldowns/damage                     Biotic Mastery - cooldowns/damage
Cryo Blast - AOE crowd control (health only)      Shockwave - AOE crowd control (health only)/damage
Overload - anti-shield, anti-mech                         Throw - single/(aoe) target knockdown, damage
Incinterate - anti-armor, anti-health                      Warp - anti-barrier, anti-armor, anti-health
AI Hack - Anti-mech, crowd distraction                 Pull - single target/(aoe) crowd control (health only)
Combat Drone - Crowd distraction                       Singularity - aoe crowd control

With that direct comparison, we see the issue:
Engineers have a specialty against a certain enemy type, mechs/geth, and have options for dealing with every enemy type via both damage OR distraction. Adepts, on paper, excel at groups of humanoids/non-synthetics, except this is completely negated by armor, barriers, or shields. In addition, the differences between Pull, Singularity, Throw and Shockwave are in theory ( not practice) the same, whereas the only two somewhat similar powers for Engineers are AI hack/combat drone. In truth, biotics have 3 abilities: Mastery, Warp, CC move, whereas Engineers 5: Mastery, Cryo, Overload, Incinerate, and Distraction.

My fix proposal: 
1) Biotics should not have any anti shield move, just how engineers have no anti barrier move. That makes sense. The jack of all trades class is the sentinel, not the biotic.
2) Make Warp stronger anti-armor, no anti-barrier. Make Throw anti barrier. That way we get some diversity instead of warp spam
3) Pull works on all enemies, reguardless of armor, shield, or barrier, however it is also single target only. That way we have some kind of Crowd distraction, single enemy nutralization without it being overpowered OR a copy of the Engineer.
4) Singularity stays the same. Its the equivalent of Cryo Blast
5) Shockwave gets a damage-less "stun" when encountering armor/shield/barrier enemies. Instead of enemies getting beaten around up in the air, when shotwave hits them they get stunned, like what happens to shepard when she/he's hit with a rocket.

What do you guys think? I think this is a pretty solid way to deal with the problem, particularly with Pull and shockwave.

I quite like those ideas, maybe you should make a poll for it. Maybe Bioware would be more open to making a patch if there's enough numbers behind it.

[Mother Lilith]

I also agree mostly with Average Gatsby.

The biggest problem with adept is their lack of option against armored/shielded foes.

Pull should definitively work on all ennemies (reduced duration sound like a good tradeoff).

Shockwave is THE power designed to be used against multiple foes so it should be effective against all kind of ennemies (granted, not very effective but something like small damage or a knockback or a stun)

BTW, shockwave damage isn't always enough to detonate explosive crates so instead it sometime propel it toward you before exploding. Kind of a silly death...

[TekFanX]

My improvement for the Biotics and Techs would be the following, although it would change the fight for Soldiers too:

Instead of the global cooldown, we get a global overheat. It wouldn't even interfere with the story, since Biotics need concentration for using their powers it could be focus for them.

The cooldown-bar-decrease-rate would differ by upgrades and skills like biotic Mastery.

There are three different bar-types: Weapons, Biotics and Tech.
The pure-classes have one 100%-bar, the mixed-classes have two 50%-bars.

For weapon-bars, the bar works a bit different:
The weapon-bar gives you a slight damage-increase with the weapons, therefore it overheats under continual fire.
If the bar is overheated, you fire with the normal strength that weapon would have.
Powers like Concussion-Shot add a certain percentage to it.

Powers had to be changed a bit too:
There is no AoE-Specialisation anymore. Instead you hold down the power-button(the assigned ones or the ones you choose them with) until impact for a mighty single-hit-power, or just press it shortly for firing an AoE-effect. So the game still plays fast and simple.
But: There is a specalisation at the end of the skill.
More Power or less Bar-Percentage:
-More power gives more punch, not altering the percentage after all.
-Less bar-percentage let's you use the power more frequently, but the punch of the power stays at the former skill-level.

Bonus-Powers should still have their own single cooldown, since adding a new biotic bar to a soldier for slam wouldn't make much sense.

I had also some thoughts of the percentages for powers:

Biotics:


Throw: 15%

Warp: 25%

Pull: 20%
(more percentage since it takes out the enemy longer than throw)

Shockwave: 40%

Biotic Charge: 15%

Singularity(rebalanced): 60%

Techs:

AI-Hacking: 45%
(high risk for the Infiltrator, piece of cake for the engineer)

Overload: 25%
(it just strips shields, so classes with a halfbar should use it also often)

Incinerate: 40%

Cryo-Blast: 25%

Combat-Drone: 20%

Tech-Armor: 15%

Tactical Cloak: 15%

Weapons:

Concussion-Shot: 35%

Rapid-fire weapons: 2.5% per bullet.

Slow-fire weapons: 10% per shot

Would like to hear your oppinion on it.

Modifié par TekFanX, 13 février 2010 - 01:42 .

[Wild Still]

Just put the infiltrator class in the options list twice.

And it's all fixed.

Biotics are awful in ME2, the projectile takes three days to reach the target. Thanks to plentiful cover the target will have popped out twice and shot at you before the projectile glances harmlessly off some other cover in some other random place on the map. I mean, come on, I have to throw a glowy, blue softball at my enemies to create a mass field? I think we would live without that. Oh, and the bad guys that aren't in cover? They have shields....

Though it is very satisfying to finish the game on insanity with an adept, since you get the "Insanity" hard mode, and the "This class is a horrible piece of design" hard mode stacked! Next I am going to play with my toes, TRIPLE HARD MODE!

And with my monitor turned off! QUADRUPLE HARD MODE!

Modifié par Wild Still, 13 février 2010 - 04:20 .

[Roxlimn]

Wild Still:



Not to be snarky or anything, but do you actually have trouble aiming an auto-aim attack mode? I have few problems curving biotics around cover. Do you know how to? Honest question here. Some players apparently have problems along those lines. We may need better documentation and possibly a help thread.

[Wild Still]

Roxlimn wrote...

Wild Still:

Not to be snarky or anything, but do you actually have trouble aiming an auto-aim attack mode? I have few problems curving biotics around cover. Do you know how to? Honest question here. Some players apparently have problems along those lines. We may need better documentation and possibly a help thread.

Nice try at being snarky.

I was exaggerating the problem for effect, though.

If you have done this game on insanity with an infiltrator or soldier and then try a biotic toon, it's bad, very bad. Not impossible, but it really demonstrates the weaknesses in the design of biotic attacks.

Curving around cover doesn't matter when your target leaves to pick up his kids because the school day is over. Honestly, doing away with the projectile would be far more elegant, but barring that, just make it move faster through the field. Your projectile gets snagged on cover when the target moves, as they are wont to do, once you have put your projectile into the air (normally aiming high is your best chance)  the target need move merely a few feet to snag the glowy softball on some random brick. In the case of fighting geth rushes they move non-stop and the ones that don't are shielded. To weaken shields you pick up AR training, at which point you play a soldier with biotics, since 75% of the damage needs to have already been done before your can let your biotics rip.

My solution to that is to make warp hit barriers very hard, not just biotic ones.

Modifié par Wild Still, 13 février 2010 - 04:38 .

[Roxlimn]

Wild Still:



Exaggeration doesn't do your point any favors. It just makes it look like you don't know what you're talking about.



Tracking for powers doesn't change according to difficulty level. It's the same. Targets moving behind cover is bad for nearly anything and everything - you can't even aim your gun. Even then, the only location where I've had a problem with that is in the Ilium port area, and even then I could manage. Takes a while to hit, but biotics hit really hard, so that's justifiable.



I've played 4 concurrent games on Hardcore with Soldier and Infiltrator and Sentinel and Adept. Adept played some parts faster and with greater ease of play. Others, Soldier, other Infiltrator. I don't think that the nature of the game changes materially between Hardcore and Insanity. It's not like MORE enemies are defended on the higher level - there's simply more HP of all varieties to go around (and yes, I checked out the ini file and it was consistent with that observation).



For attacking Shields, you take team mates who can use Overload and command them properly so they don't get killed. Or take Energy Drain right off and render the question completely moot. One application of Area Overload (achievable before level 10) will strip most normal enemies in the AoE of all Shields. For most intents and purposes, those things may as well not even be there.



Then the ownage happens.



It's even better against Geth. On Hardcore, Geth missions are so, so easy. I figure I always had an Overload I couldn't use because they were all already dead or disabled, and Energy Shield just owns that area anyway.



Neither SIngularity nor Warp require you to drop defenses before use. Actually, Throw appears to work, too - just not very well, but it seems to do so.



I mean seriously, you're having problems taking down shields, of all things? Those things are the easiest defenses in the game to eliminate!

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Seraphael wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

To be honest The adept really is great on Hardcore and it is slightly weaker in Insanity. The question is should we really be balancing the game around Insanity? Sure it should be a consideration but I don't really think its a major issue.

To be even more honest; most/all classes are better than the biotics specialist on most difficulty levels. And to answer your question; no, we should balance the game around having fun. Not being able to use the majority of biotic powers when it matters is anything but.

Yep.  Most of the adepts biotics are pointless in most circumstances by the time that he is allowed to use them.

[themaxzero]

Seraphael wrote...

themaxzero wrote...

To be honest The adept really is great on Hardcore and it is slightly weaker in Insanity. The question is should we really be balancing the game around Insanity? Sure it should be a consideration but I don't really think its a major issue.

To be even more honest; most/all classes are better than the biotics specialist on most difficulty levels. And to answer your question; no, we should balance the game around having fun. Not being able to use the majority of biotic powers when it matters is anything but.

Most difficulty levels? Adept is brutal on Veteran or below and is still damn good Hardcore. Since when has Insanity become the majority?

[matt654321]

Saying this for the upteenth time:

Adepts work on insanity. That isn't the problem. The problem is that half of their power repertoire is fairly useless or extremely situational at best. Even on insanity that doesn't happen to any other class (except those with those powers, and with Cryo Blast).

I suggested fixes earlier in this thread. The gist of them was let certain powers work only on certain defenses and reduce their effectiveness when they do. IE - let pull work on armored foes, but cut its duration by half or a fourth. The heavy versions of those powers should either not have their effectiveness reduced or have their effectiveness reduced by a lesser amount.

Also, shockwave already stuns enemies with protection. the major problem with it is that the stun is barely long enough to break even with the long start-up animation and cooldown (in fact, it probably doesn't break even at all). In order to save this power, it would probably need to actually knock down foes.


And a final note: Game balance is implemented to make the game more fun and interesting. When it's interfering with fun, it's being counterproductive.

Modifié par matt654321, 13 février 2010 - 05:42 .

[TheBestClass]

Damn, I was gonna play an Adept soon. I'm starting to reconsider.

[_Dannok1234]

matt654321 wrote...

Saying this for the upteenth time:

Adepts work on insanity. That isn't the problem. The problem is that half of their power repertoire is fairly useless or extremely situational at best. Even on insanity that doesn't happen to any other class (except those with those powers, and with Cryo Blast).

How are biotics extremely situational or fairly useless on insanity?
I really don't see it. I personally use them all the time as a means to kill enemies. After all, it usually takes longer to deplete someones health then it does shields/armor. Using a biotic combo (or a single skill in some cases) is a faster, safer and ammo free way of killing your enemies. 
I agree that having biotics work on armor (but say with reduced damage), makes sense from a lore perspective, but from game balance perspective I understand the reasoning behind it. Insanity is pretty darn easy as it is. If it was using the same resist rules as causal/normal with more HP it would be dull and far far too easy as a biotic. The whole point of it as a challenge would go away.

[_Dannok1234]

TheBestclass wrote...

Damn, I was gonna play an Adept soon. I'm starting to reconsider.

Then I suggest you take a look at the video's posted by other people in this forum, there are a couple of threads. That might make you reconsider yet again. Don't read something here and base your decision on that, as it would be a mistake. Great many posts exaggerate or complete ignore certain key things in order to further their own views/agenda.

[Roxlimn]

matt654321:



All supporting points that say that Adept powers are useless or situational have no factual basis. It takes a while to kill any enemy on Insanity even when they're on Health. For Elites, it takes longer.



The half of the powers that you say don't work are instant-kill powers or total shutdown powers, which essentially amount to the same thing. Your fixes are problematic. Letting Pull work on armored foes for even one second exposes them all to Warp Explosion use right off the bat, without even cover to protect them, since both Pull and Warp go around cover. That is way too powerful.



If you want to stipulate that Pull works on defended foes, then you must also stipulate that Warp does not trigger detonation on such foes while they are still defended. Even then, you're walking on overpowered territory there. Base duration for a Pull Field is pretty long - even cut in half it's like more than 4 seconds. That's more than enough time for you to juggle cooldowns on TWO Pull Fields at once.



That would allow you to neutralize two enemy groups right at the outset, denying them both offensive capability and cover defenses. Let's not even talk about interaction with Throw. That has got to go completely out. Insta-killing foes instantly?



Seriously, Veteran already works like that. What's the point of having a different game setting when it's going to play nearly exactly the same as another setting anyway? Is it for the ego?

[themaxzero]

TheBestclass wrote...

Damn, I was gonna play an Adept soon. I'm starting to reconsider.

As said by the poster above be very wary when you read "this class sucks/isboring/crap" and so on. People said Vanguard were like the worst class "EVAR!" when the game was released.

My advice to you is play what YOU want to and what YOU enjoy. If you have problems with a particular fight or encounter then check up the forums but not even playing a class because of what some nuffie on a forum said only hurts yourself.

Modifié par themaxzero, 13 février 2010 - 05:58 .

[_Dannok1234]

Nicely summed up Roxlimn, thats what I keep wondering about as well. If you want to be as powerful as you are on Normal on insanity, are you sure you really want to play on insanity? I mean if the defenses of enemies negating your instant kill ability is the main issue. Don't you see that if this wasn't the case it would be no harder then normal?

[matt654321]

Dannok1234 wrote...

How are biotics extremely situational or fairly useless on insanity?
I
really don't see it. I personally use them all the time as a means to
kill enemies. After all, it usually takes longer to deplete someones
health then it does shields/armor. Using a biotic combo (or a single
skill in some cases) is a faster, safer and ammo free way of killing
your enemies. 
I agree that having biotics work on armor (but say
with reduced damage), makes sense from a lore perspective, but from
game balance perspective I understand the reasoning behind it. Insanity
is pretty darn easy as it is. If it was using the same resist rules as
causal/normal with more HP it would be dull and far far too easy as a
biotic. The whole point of it as a challenge would go away.

Again, the problem is that there are lots of very easy ways to kill the enemy when it's down to health. Using pull/throw is more effective, but only slightly. That's why it's situational.

Roxlimn wrote...

matt654321:

All supporting points that say that Adept powers are useless or situational have no factual basis. It takes a while to kill any enemy on Insanity even when they're on Health. For Elites, it takes longer.

If that's true, then why do soldiers, infiltrators, engineers, vanguards, and sentinels have no problem killing defenseless enemies without pull+throw? You're the one not providing any factual basis.

Roxlimn wrote...
The half of the powers that you say don't work are instant-kill powers or total shutdown powers, which essentially amount to the same thing. Your fixes are problematic. Letting Pull work on armored foes for even one second exposes them all to Warp Explosion use right off the bat, without even cover to protect them, since both Pull and Warp go around cover. That is way too powerful.

That's why you limit their effectiveness. I'm not saying let them work at 100%. Just let them do something. Having pull affect an enemy with armor for 5/4 of a second is not going to break the game.

If you've ever played a gun-based class, you'd know that enemies taking cover isn't a big issue anyway. Most of the time they have a limb or part of their head sticking out, so you can still shoot them.

If you feel that warp explosion is too powerful, then turn it down. It's not an insta-kill, though.

Roxlimn wrote...
If you want to stipulate that Pull works on defended foes, then you must also stipulate that Warp does not trigger detonation on such foes while they are still defended. Even then, you're walking on overpowered territory there. Base duration for a Pull Field is pretty long - even cut in half it's like more than 4 seconds.

If you actually read what I posted, I said that I'm not tied to the numbers. If you think that 4 seconds is too long, shorten it further.

Roxlimn wrote...
That's more than enough time for you to juggle cooldowns on TWO Pull Fields at once.

Because you can't reset a singularity before the power is finished? Oh wait, you can.

Roxlimn wrote...
That would allow you to neutralize two enemy groups right at the outset, denying them both offensive capability and cover defenses. Let's not even talk about interaction with Throw. That has got to go completely out. Insta-killing foes instantly?

It doesn't have to do that. As I said before, you'd limit its effectiveness. Have you ever tried pull+throw on a YMIR with only health left? I'll tell you right now, it's not an insta-kill. The same type of solution could work on armored enemies as well. It disables them without outright killing them - aka crowd control. You know, what the adept is supposed to do.

Roxlimn wrote...
Seriously, Veteran already works like that. What's the point of having a different game setting when it's going to play nearly exactly the same as another setting anyway? Is it for the ego?

It's for entertainment value. Changing the game difficulty should make the game harder, but it shouldn't wholly nullify a previously legit tactic. You're stuck in this close minded all-or-nothing mindset, but you aren't willing to admit that there's a compromise in the middle.

Bioware already has the foundation for some of these fixes in the game right now. We already have circumstances where if an enemy isn't supposed to outright die from biotics, their effectiveness is limited. Those precedents could work - you don't need to slap on a total nullification clause on top of it.

[matt654321]

Dannok1234 wrote...

Nicely summed up Roxlimn, thats what I keep wondering about as well. If you want to be as powerful as you are on Normal on insanity, are you sure you really want to play on insanity? I mean if the defenses of enemies negating your instant kill ability is the main issue. Don't you see that if this wasn't the case it would be no harder then normal?

Again, for the billionth time:  NO ONE IS SAYING THAT ADEPTS DON'T WORK ON INSANITY. These suggested changes aren't meant to make the game any easier. They're meant to have the adept play closer to as it does on lower difficulties because it's more fun. This has been repeated over and over again - at this point, you simply don't want to hear the explanation, you just want to jump on a bandwagon and complain about people.

[_Dannok1234]

matt654321 wrote...

Dannok1234 wrote...

Nicely summed up Roxlimn, thats what I keep wondering about as well. If you want to be as powerful as you are on Normal on insanity, are you sure you really want to play on insanity? I mean if the defenses of enemies negating your instant kill ability is the main issue. Don't you see that if this wasn't the case it would be no harder then normal?

Again, for the billionth time:  NO ONE IS SAYING THAT ADEPTS DON'T WORK ON INSANITY. These suggested changes aren't meant to make the game any easier. They're meant to have the adept play closer to as it does on lower difficulties because it's more fun. This has been repeated over and over again - at this point, you simply don't want to hear the explanation, you just want to jump on a bandwagon and complain about people.

Actually no, I'm hearing you. I'm just telling you the result, that insanity will be much too easy.
Nor would I call something you can use every single time the defense is down(which goes down insanely fast if you do the right thing) to be situational.You even admit that it's "slightly more effective then using guns". Exactly how much more effective does it has to be in order for it to be good?
You make it sound as if it's some kind of rare occurrence, which it is is not. It's something that you can do on 90% of the enemies in the game if not more. I truly do not believe that there is something broken or boring about the way biotics work in this game.

You might recall that there were dozens of threads about how bad vanguards are and how useless charge is. Well thats mostly done with now thankfully. But it did take a lot of hard evidence to actually manage to show that to people. This seems to be the case with Adepts too really. There are now video's of people using biotics to kill their enemies smooth and fast on any difficulty, that should be enough really.(Starting to wonder if you can go through enemies faster as an adept then you can as a vanguard)

The way classes worked in ME1 was horrible compared to how they now work in ME2. Bioware has done a great job of making the gameplay fun and exciting. The way you can actually discover tactics and tricks that make things so much easier. Rather then in ME1 where nearly every class would turn into some kind of god mode.

Edit: To make it especially clear. I never said that you claimed adepts don't work on insanity.
(You do however repeatedly claim that biotics are not as effective as they really are.)

Modifié par Dannok1234, 13 février 2010 - 07:26 .

[matt654321]

Dannok1234 wrote...

Actually no, I'm hearing you. I'm just telling you the result, that insanity will be much too easy.

That's not what you said. You characterized the argument as an attempt to make insanity easier. Here's your post saying so:

Dannok1234 wrote...
If you want to be as powerful as you are on Normal on insanity, are you sure you really want to play on insanity?

No, I do not want the Adept to be as powerful on insanity as it is on normal. I want insanity to be harder. At the same time, I don't want half of my powers to not do anything for the majority of the time.

Dannok1234 wrote...
Nor would I call something you can use every single time the defense is down(which goes down insanely fast if you do the right thing) to be situational.You even admit that it's "slightly more effective then using guns". Exactly how much more effective does it has to be in order for it to be good?

If it only works half of the time, it needs to be twice as good. Slightly means just that - slightly. If a gun with AP ammo can kill an enemy in 6 seconds (the total cooldown time for pull+throw), then you're not actually getting an advantage.

Dannok1234 wrote...
You make it sound as if it's some kind of rare occurrence, which it is is not. It's something that you can do on 90% of the enemies in the game if not more. I truly do not believe that there is something broken or boring about the way biotics work in this game.

As stated over and over again, by the time you can do it, it isn't overly helpful.

Dannok1234 wrote...
You might recall that there were dozens of threads about how bad vanguards are and how useless charge is. Well thats mostly done with now thankfully. But it did take a lot of hard evidence to actually manage to show that to people. This seems to be the case with Adepts too really. There are now video's of people using biotics to kill their enemies smooth and fast on any difficulty, that should be enough really.(Starting to wonder if you can go through enemies faster as an adept then you can as a vanguard)

See, you're really not getting it, despite your claims otherwise. It's not about whether or not Adepts can go through insanity smoothly. We know that they can. It's about those three powers that are far too limited to be useful, much less entertaining.

Dannok1234 wrote...
The way classes worked in ME1 was horrible compared to how they now work in ME2. Bioware has done a great job of making the gameplay fun and exciting. The way you can actually discover tactics and tricks that make things so much easier. Rather then in ME1 where nearly every class would turn into some kind of god mode.

No one is asking for ME1's balance to happen again. Bioware has implemented multiple failsafes to keep that from happening. However, you don't need all of them. You don't need global cooldowns AND nullification against protection AND reduced effectiveness against important enemies. I'm not asking for biotics to go back to ME1 style, just to turn the dial down on the nerfs a bit.

Dannok1234 wrote...
Edit: To make it especially clear. I never said that you claimed adepts don't work on insanity.

That's funny. Why would you bother to post something like this, then?

Dannok1234 wrote...

You might recall that there were dozens of threads about how bad
vanguards are and how useless charge is. Well thats mostly done with
now thankfully. But it did take a lot of hard evidence to actually
manage to show that to people. This seems to be the case with Adepts
too really. There are now video's of people using biotics to kill their
enemies smooth and fast on any difficulty, that should be enough really.

Here you say that people are undervaluing Adepts in the same way that Vanguards were undervalued. That isn't the case for this argument. We know that Adepts work on insanity.

Dannok1234 wrote...
(You do however repeatedly claim that biotics are not as effective as they really are.)

No, I don't. I claim that pull, throw, and shockwave are not fun or effective. Biotics in general work, as evidenced by Adepts being able to complete insanity.

[Arde5643]

I think the biggest problem so far is shockwave's utility.

Due to singularity, pull and throw, there is almost never any moment where an adept ever need to use shockwave even in close combat.

Either shockwave has to have better cooldown or it has to have more features to justify the long cooldown.

My suggestion:
First type: 
* Reduce the cooldown of shockwave to 3 seconds making it the situational power of choice for close range AR or SG adepts
* shockwave gets even wider radius making it a very excellent alternative choice to singularity in cqc combat.
The 1st type increases the effectiveness of the vanilla warp

Second type:
* shockwave does some damage to barrier and shields (much less than warp/overload obviously) making it an alternate form of power to use against multiple shielded enemies in cover
* enemies stunned in singularity receives 1.5x damage to barrier/shields if hit by shockwave
The 2nd type changes warp completely making it a wholly different beast to use in succession with the adept's other powers

Other than that, to make throw more effective:
1) When someone is caught (not just stunned) in the singularity field, throw does 2* force power to them
2) Throw does 3* force power to pulled opponents.
This makes throw a very attractive alternative power than warp detonation against individual enemies.

No change to singularity, pull. or warp.

Modifié par Arde5643, 13 février 2010 - 07:49 .

[_Dannok1234]

matt654321 wrote...

Dannok1234 wrote...

Actually no, I'm hearing you. I'm just telling you the result, that insanity will be much too easy.

That's not what you said. You characterized the argument as an attempt to make insanity easier. Here's your post saying so:

Dannok1234 wrote...
If you want to be as powerful as you are on Normal on insanity, are you sure you really want to play on insanity?

No, I do not want the Adept to be as powerful on insanity as it is on normal. I want insanity to be harder. At the same time, I don't want half of my powers to not do anything for the majority of the time.

Wow you sure like using quotes.
It would be useful if you didn't quote what I said to other people. But what I said in response to one of your posts, rather then a bit here and there from all my posts in this thread. 
Also I would like to point out(again) that biotic powers work for the majority of the time, regardless what you claim. It works on most enemies as long as you take down their defenses, there are only a select few that have no health at all. Since it doesn't only work half the time, it doesn't need to work twice as good. 

Also it would be a good idea to not state things that are merely your opinion as fact. Just because you do not feel that it's useful to use biotics by the time an enemy is down to health, does not mean that it's not.

<"See, you're really not getting it, despite your claims otherwise. It's not about whether or not Adepts can go through insanity smoothly. We know that they can. It's about those three powers that are far too limited to be useful, much less entertaining.">

By too limited I assume you mean that they can not be used against enemies with defenses. Which brings us back to the fact that if they could, it would be no different then normal/casual. In other words overpowered, unbalanced and boring.

<Here you say that people are undervaluing Adepts in the same way that Vanguards were undervalued. That isn't the case for this argument. We know that Adepts work on insanity.>

This isn't the case here? Are you not undervaluing the skills we are discussing? To me you are.

[matt654321]

Dannok1234 wrote...

Wow you sure like using quotes.

Don't like owning up to what you actually said?

Dannok1234 wrote...
It would be useful if you didn't quote what I said to other people. But what I said in response to one of your posts, rather then a bit here and there from all my posts in this thread.

All of those quotes were from our last few posts to each other.

Dannok1234 wrote...
Also I would like to point out(again) that biotic powers work for the majority of the time, regardless what you claim. It works on most enemies as long as you take down their defenses, there are only a select few that have no health at all. Since it doesn't only work half the time, it doesn't need to work twice as good.

Keep plugging your ears and shouting. That's all you're doing. I've clarified this for you several times already.

Dannok1234 wrote...
Also it would be a good idea to not state things that are merely your opinion as fact. Just because you do not feel that it's useful to use biotics by the time an enemy is down to health, does not mean that it's not.

It's not an opinion. It is fact. There are plenty of other useful options to quickly kill enemies when they're down to only health. The tough part is getting them there. Pull, shockwave, and throw are practically useless because of that.

Dannok1234 wrote...

By too limited I assume you mean that they can not be used against enemies with defenses. Which brings us back to the fact that if they could, it would be no different then normal/casual. In other words overpowered, unbalanced and boring.

Which brings us back to my retort that there are compromises that do not affect game balance but still make those powers functional. Keep repeating yourself - I've already responded to your statements.

Dannok1234 wrote...
This isn't the case here? Are you not undervaluing the skills we are discussing? To me you are.

You said biotics as a whole. I'm talking about three particular skills. Singularity, warp, reave, etc - they're all fine. Don't mischaracterize me. Seems to me that you can't even understand the very most basic elements of what I'm saying (learning what the topic is would be a great way to start).