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How can BioWare improve the Adept class?


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#201
Roxlimn

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 matt654321:

If that's true, then why do soldiers, infiltrators, engineers, vanguards, and sentinels have no problem killing defenseless enemies without pull+throw? You're the one not providing any factual basis.


Taking a while to kill defenseless enemies doesn't mean that classes that don't have insta-kill options will have problems - it'll just take longer or require more skill.  And it does.

That's why you limit their effectiveness. I'm not saying let them work at 100%. Just let them do something. Having pull affect an enemy with armor for 5/4 of a second is not going to break the game.

If you've ever played a gun-based class, you'd know that enemies taking cover isn't a big issue anyway. Most of the time they have a limb or part of their head sticking out, so you can still shoot them.

If you feel that warp explosion is too powerful, then turn it down. It's not an insta-kill, though.


No.  Even one second is more than enough time to get in that Warp because NPC Warps are instantaneous.  I've played Soldier and Infiltrator on Normal.  Also both on Hardcore.  Enemies taking cover is a big issue.  It is, without exception, the singlemost important defense most enemies have in the game.  Enemies like LOKI Mechs are EASY because they don't take cover.

Sometimes, you can shoot parts that are sticking out.  Sometimes, you do and it turns out that that part wasn't part of the mechanical hitbox.  It's hit or miss so it's a little chancy doing that with something like a Widow.  You say "most of the time," but all that is is empty talk.  Give me frequencies, situations, locations, enemies, and video.  Put your money where your mouth is.

If you actually read what I posted, I said that I'm not tied to the numbers. If you think that 4 seconds is too long, shorten it further.


You have to understand the nature of Pull to understand why this is never going to work.  Pull is an absolute CC power.  This means that it completely shuts down defense AND offense, essentially serving up the enemy for the kill.  It either lasts long enough and allows you to kill, or it doesn't last long enough and isn't worth the cooldown.

A 1 second Pull might be "balanced," but with Warp on the table as an option you can use instead and a 3 second cooldown for Pull, it's a pointless property - unless you use it to potentiate Warp, in which case it's too powerful.

Because you can't reset a singularity before the power is finished? Oh wait, you can.


What has that got to do with it?  You can use Pull concurrently with Singularity.  There is nothing that prohibits this.

It doesn't have to do that. As I said before, you'd limit its effectiveness. Have you ever tried pull+throw on a YMIR with only health left? I'll tell you right now, it's not an insta-kill. The same type of solution could work on armored enemies as well. It disables them without outright killing them - aka crowd control. You know, what the adept is supposed to do.


Once a YMIR mech is down to Health against a team with biotics, it's as good as dead.  I don't mean that to exaggerate or rhetorically, as you do.  I mean that literally - it is as good as dead.

This is because the duration of even level 1 Pull is greater than its cooldown.  You can apply it as a universal shutdown power against the Mech and it's all over but the shouting.

It's for entertainment value. Changing the game difficulty should make the game harder, but it shouldn't wholly nullify a previously legit tactic. You're stuck in this close minded all-or-nothing mindset, but you aren't willing to admit that there's a compromise in the middle.

Bioware already has the foundation for some of these fixes in the game right now. We already have circumstances where if an enemy isn't supposed to outright die from biotics, their effectiveness is limited. Those precedents could work - you don't need to slap on a total nullification clause on top of it.


It doesn't!  Just because you can't do it doesn't mean that it can't be done.  Controlling multiple enemies with biotics powers is totally doable on Hardcore, and I know because I've been doing it all this time, and not only with Adept, but with Sentinel as well.

It's harder to apply because you need to bring down defenses, but it's not impossible, and it's not useless, nor superfluous.  I'm willing to allow for a lot of things, but having some experience with this sort of thing, I already have some familiarity with how some of it is likely to turn out.

Pull is an absolute no-go.  It's already fantastically powerful.  You might have a case with Throw but it already does something to defended targets!

READ: Throw has an effect on targets that have defenses.  This is new to you, yes?  It's because you're not playing the game.

#202
_Dannok1234

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About "owning up to what I've said". Thats pretty funny. I mean it's all here on the forum, why would I try to run form it? It's just that people that are picking apart a post like you do here. Are often more concerned with finding flaws or something to attack that has nothing to do with the real argument. Sadly this seems to be the case this time as well.



It's not an opinion. It is fact. There are plenty of other useful options to quickly kill enemies when they're down to only health. The tough part is getting them there. Pull, shockwave, and throw are practically useless because of that.




That is an opinion and not fact. As I clearly think those powers work just fine and are useful.

I know you've ignored this a few times already, but figure it's worth another go. I would also like to know why biotics are less useful just because there are other ways to bring down an enemies health.



Aslo you did actually a quote a post that was not a direct response to one of your posts, but rather just me musing in general to anyone and everyone that read this thread.



I apologize for confusing you by writing biotics rather then Throw, Pull and Shockwave.I made the assumption that you would understand that I was refering to those along with all the rest of the abilities.Since those were the abilities we were discussing.( Or rather I was discussing, you were also discussing my posts.Very amusing though)

#203
matt654321

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[quote]Roxlimn wrote...

Taking a while to kill defenseless enemies doesn't mean that classes that don't have insta-kill options will have problems - it'll just take longer or require more skill.  And it does.[/quote]

It doesn't take nearly as much longer as you think. At all.

[quote]Roxlimn wrote...
[quote]
That's why you limit their effectiveness. I'm not saying let them work at 100%. Just let them do something. Having pull affect an enemy with armor for 5/4 of a second is not going to break the game.

If you've ever played a gun-based class, you'd know that enemies taking cover isn't a big issue anyway. Most of the time they have a limb or part of their head sticking out, so you can still shoot them.

If you feel that warp explosion is too powerful, then turn it down. It's not an insta-kill, though.
[/quote]

No.  Even one second is more than enough time to get in that Warp because NPC Warps are instantaneous.  I've played Soldier and Infiltrator on Normal.  Also both on Hardcore.  Enemies taking cover is a big issue.  It is, without exception, the singlemost important defense most enemies have in the game.  Enemies like LOKI Mechs are EASY because they don't take cover.[/quote]

I left my quote there because it's obvious that you aren't responding to my statement. As I clearly stated above, if you think that warp explosion is too powerful, turn the dial down on its damage.

And again, you're overplaying the enemies taking cover issue. Even you can't line up the shot while they're hiding, just wait one second and they'll pop back out. Then they're dead. They don't abuse cover nearly as well as a player can.

[quote]Roxlimn wrote...
Sometimes, you can shoot parts that are sticking out.  Sometimes, you do and it turns out that that part wasn't part of the mechanical hitbox.  It's hit or miss so it's a little chancy doing that with something like a Widow.  You say "most of the time," but all that is is empty talk.  Give me frequencies, situations, locations, enemies, and video.  Put your money where your mouth is.[/quote]

I don't have a recording device, but you can look at these forums and see people reporting the exact same thing. It's also funny that you tell me to put my money where my mouth is when you're the one who isn't providing evidence and simply saying "you can't do that at all because I can't do that."

[quote]Roxlimn wrote...
You have to understand the nature of Pull to understand why this is never going to work.  Pull is an absolute CC power.  This means that it completely shuts down defense AND offense, essentially serving up the enemy for the kill.  It either lasts long enough and allows you to kill, or it doesn't last long enough and isn't worth the cooldown.[/quote]

You don't understand the nature of the changes. If you make pull work and tone down warp explosion, you're fine. Even if you don't touch warp, your ally's warp recovers once every twelve seconds. If pull ends before you can fire off a warp, you can't do that combo yourself. You'll only be able to do it once every twelve seconds. Doesn't seem unbalanced to me.

That also neglects the other option - make it function as it does on defenseless loki mechs - ie they don't leave the ground but they're immobilized, giving you some breathing room. Throw won't insta-kill them in this case.

[quote]Roxlimn wrote...
A 1 second Pull might be "balanced," but with Warp on the table as an option you can use instead and a 3 second cooldown for Pull, it's a pointless property - unless you use it to potentiate Warp, in which case it's too powerful.[/quote]

Already addressed. If pull is only working for 1.25 seconds, you can't use your own warp to combo. You can only use your ally's, which only works once every twelve seconds. Even if you bring two allies with warp, you're still just breaking even (and sacraficing having other powers at your disposal in the process).

[quote]Roxlimn wrote...

What has that got to do with it?  You can use Pull concurrently with Singularity.  There is nothing that prohibits this.[/quote]

You said it would be a problem if pull could overlap with itself to indefinitely lock someone down ala ME1. That's already possible with Singularity.

[quote]Roxlimn wrote...

Once a YMIR mech is down to Health against a team with biotics, it's as good as dead.  I don't mean that to exaggerate or rhetorically, as you do.  I mean that literally - it is as good as dead.[/quote]

I'm not exaggerating anything. It's funny how you accuse me of having a lack of experience, when you're the one who's showing that characteristic.

[quote]Roxlimn wrote...
This is because the duration of even level 1 Pull is greater than its cooldown.  You can apply it as a universal shutdown power against the Mech and it's all over but the shouting.[/quote]

That's why you shorten the duration. You don't implement one change in a vacuum.

[quote]Roxlimn wrote...
[quote]
It's for entertainment value. Changing the game difficulty should make the game harder, but it shouldn't wholly nullify a previously legit tactic. You're stuck in this close minded all-or-nothing mindset, but you aren't willing to admit that there's a compromise in the middle.

Bioware already has the foundation for some of these fixes in the game right now. We already have circumstances where if an enemy isn't supposed to outright die from biotics, their effectiveness is limited. Those precedents could work - you don't need to slap on a total nullification clause on top of it.
[/quote]

It doesn't!  Just because you can't do it doesn't mean that it can't be done.  Controlling multiple enemies with biotics powers is totally doable on Hardcore, and I know because I've been doing it all this time, and not only with Adept, but with Sentinel as well.

It's harder to apply because you need to bring down defenses, but it's not impossible, and it's not useless, nor superfluous.  I'm willing to allow for a lot of things, but having some experience with this sort of thing, I already have some familiarity with how some of it is likely to turn out.[/quote]

I left my quote in to show again that you didn't actually respond to what I said. Bioware has some of these fixes somewhat in the game already, as I described.

[quote]Roxlimn wrote...
Pull is an absolute no-go.  It's already fantastically powerful.[/quote]

And you say I exaggerate....

[quote]Roxlimn wrote...
You might have a case with Throw but it already does something to defended targets![/quote]

It barely does anything, and it certainly doesn't do anything useful.

[quote]Roxlimn wrote...
READ: Throw has an effect on targets that have defenses.  This is new to you, yes?[/quote]

No, not new. And if you'd play the game, you'd know the same thing happens with shockwave as well. That doesn't mean either of them are useful.

We use the term 'doesn't do anything' loosely. What we actually mean is that if you use throw, you get a very short stagger that results in putting you at a disadvantage for even having used the move at all.

[quote]Roxlimn wrote...
It's because you're not playing the game.[/quote]
Fail. Again, you didn't know that shockwave does the same thing. I didn't explicitly say that throw has a tiny stagger, but that's because it should be obvious (and it should be equally obvious that doing so isn't actually helpful).

I can play the same game you're playing. Watch:

You know, if you hold L-trigger, you aim. This is new to you, yes? It's because you're not playing the game.:unsure:

#204
matt654321

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Dannok1234 wrote...

About "owning up to what I've said". Thats pretty funny. I mean it's all here on the forum, why would I try to run form it? It's just that people that are picking apart a post like you do here. Are often more concerned with finding flaws or something to attack that has nothing to do with the real argument. Sadly this seems to be the case this time as well.

It's not an opinion. It is fact. There are plenty of other useful options to quickly kill enemies when they're down to only health. The tough part is getting them there. Pull, shockwave, and throw are practically useless because of that.


That is an opinion and not fact. As I clearly think those powers work just fine and are useful.
I know you've ignored this a few times already, but figure it's worth another go. I would also like to know why biotics are less useful just because there are other ways to bring down an enemies health.

Aslo you did actually a quote a post that was not a direct response to one of your posts, but rather just me musing in general to anyone and everyone that read this thread.

I apologize for confusing you by writing biotics rather then Throw, Pull and Shockwave.I made the assumption that you would understand that I was refering to those along with all the rest of the abilities.Since those were the abilities we were discussing.( Or rather I was discussing, you were also discussing my posts.Very amusing though)


Translation: I have nothing else to say, so I'm going to try to talk about something other than the topic and hope people don't notice.

#205
_Dannok1234

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matt654321 wrote...

Translation: I have nothing else to say, so I'm going to try to talk about something other than the topic and hope people don't notice.

That sums up nicely what I was saying that you are doing. Well done. You are highly amusing though.

#206
_Dannok1234

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But just to get something straight.
Do you understand that just because you have an opinion about something does not make it a fact?
I'm not trolling you, I really want to know the answer.

So far it seems to me that in most of your posts here and in other threads, you state that your opinions are facts. Something which is not true. I have tried to point that out a few times now but you completely ignore it and just state your opinion again. Now if you believe what you say are facts then there is no point in trying to argue with you at all.

Modifié par Dannok1234, 13 février 2010 - 09:35 .


#207
Atheist Peace

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matt654321 wrote...

Again, for the billionth time:  NO ONE IS SAYING THAT ADEPTS DON'T WORK ON INSANITY. These suggested changes aren't meant to make the game any easier. They're meant to have the adept play closer to as it does on lower difficulties because it's more fun.



More fun for you maybe, the Adept is my favourite class and if the kind of changes suggested in this thread where to take place it would kill the class for me. The only skill that i would concede may need adjusting is shockwave, the rest work fine.

I may have missed an earlier post by you which explains what changes could be made to adept skills WITHOUT making a significant difference to the difficulty, if that is the case can someone please direct me too it.

#208
bdipauly

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OH great, I am about 2 hours into Adept and now I decide to read this. I can't start again now, this is my 3rd playthrough lol.



So far, Infiltrator has been most fun. Wicked class.

#209
Schneidend

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Adept has Singularity and Warp. No changes necessary.