273 réponses à ce sujet

[dab362]

Hello!

* What do you like and dislike about the Mage?*
  I like:
     The Lore.  I find it original, engrossing, and ..sensible.  Apostates, Templars, The circle, Tevinter mages, general publics reaction to mages,  kudos!
     The Options.  Wonderful amount of options in reguard to spells.  Creating a Law abiding circle mage, a shamanistic primal/shapechanging mage, and a paladin esque arcane warrior/spirit healer are all attainable.
     Shapechanging mages.  I mention it becuase after reading a few post it didn't seem to have too many positive referrals.  I feel playing a shapechanger can be a rewarding experience, but does (especially in higher diffuculties) require an amount of consideration to be effective.  Many other options, though not all, are paths of less resistance.
     Spell combinations. They add depth, are logical (as much as magic can be =D ), and..are fun!
     Some mage equipment.  Different styles of robes differentiate mage backgrounds. Some staffs look better fitted to apostates or tribal mages who make their lives out in the woods as opposed to carefull constructed staffs with intricate designs.
      That magic users are just more powerful.  Someone with a sword and shield couldn't really stand against being the recipient of a strong burst of lighting to the...well, anywhere!

I dislike:
     =( some aspects of the shapechanging specialization.  Maybe if some guidlines where introduced for more effective ways to play this specialization it could be better recieved.  It would seem they need consideration as early as putting your first points into attributes.  Also I agree that the animal forms after obtaining the master shapechanging skill were surprising.  In a wilderness environment, they look out of place.   I feel they would be better suited as an option between two to three total different masterforms.
    Most other mage equipment asthetically.  While I believe some choices were made and upheld for the story, like the Circle of magi robes (plain and unassuming) there were not many other options.  My favorite mage (and warrior chest pieces) are chasind though!  That may be becuase they are few and far between and that they were just different from the the plain garbs.
    That some mage area of effect spells (there may be others) don't require line of sight.  It's much easier this way!... but it bugs me.
     That choosing the blood mage specialization does not have a significant impact on NPC interaction.  I am only speaking from what I have read..becuase no matter how many times I say I'm going to do it..i just can't bring myself to unlock it! one day!
    
As a side note I would like to say: 
  I would like to see more equipment friendly to the arcane warrior specialization, an explanation of which spells can be cast while holding a weapon other than a staff, and a general increase in arcane warrior content!  and the shapeshifter for that matter.  I realize that thier isn't much lore on the AW and the reason is explained by how you unlock the specialization, but it's very interesting. more!
     
* Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Mage?
    Underpowered:
          Shapeshifter =0
    Overpowered:
          I think that the mage's power level is good.  Mages have enormous potential, laying waste to groups of enemies at a time by themselves..and I think that is how it should be =\\

* What are your favorite Mage specializations? What are your least favorite?
     My favorite is shapeshifting and blood mage.  My least favorite is..
* What are your favorite Mage talent trees? What are your least favorite?
     My favorite talent trees are primal, spirit, creation..my least is entropy...but not becuase it's not useful, becuase i have a hard time making a evil aligned character. I digress..

Thank you for taking the time to make such an engrossing gameplay experience =O!

[draxynnus]

Mirander wrote...

Well, you can expand the size of the hotbar (on the PC at least, I can't speak to the consoles).  Click on the right side of the hotbar, and drag it out as far as you need.  You can drag it out far enough to go across the entire bottom of the screen.

...Thanks for the tip! I had been managing by using the higher-recharge and sustained spells from the Spells & Talents page, but this will make things easier...

I'll be using this, either when the expansion comes out or I start a second mage, whichever comes first. Actually, I might just end up doing it with Wynne first.

Always wondered why the quickbar didn't extend all the way across the screen, since it already goes further than the default 1-0 range of hotkeys.

Tolkiens Padawan wrote...

Is chain lightning useful? I dindn't learn it, because it says it goes from one creature to another and so on and can hurt group members. So why the hell should I risk to use it?

Actually, despite the ingame description, I've never seen either lightning or chain lightning cause friendly fire. Chain lightning is actually a quite useful spell to throw into a melee.

The problem is the 60-second recharge and, to a lesser extend, the 2-second cast time.

dab342 wrote... 

That magic users are just more powerful.  Someone with a sword and shield couldn't really stand against being the recipient of a strong burst of lighting to the...well, anywhere!

This is fantasy. Warriors are allowed to have a supernatural ability to survive and keep fighting despite being struck by things that a normal person would be expected to be at least knocked unconscious from.

Modifié par draxynnus, 07 février 2010 - 05:52 .

[Asurablade]

"This is fantasy. Warriors are allowed to have a supernatural ability to survive and keep fighting despite being struck by things that a normal person would be expected to be at least knocked unconscious from."

And yet warriors have no ability to 'charge' up to a condescending mage that's about to chuck a chain lightning on you because you have to strut up to them in a rather hunch-back like stance. Oh wait that's unnecessary.. yes i agree warriors can tank mages any day they just need to chug some health poultices here and there, whilst slowly creeping up to a mage until you can watch your character knock down the mage and auto-attack him to death. Sheer tactical ingenuity ha.

Modifié par Asurablade, 07 février 2010 - 10:04 .

[Macadami]

Before i answer the following let it be said that I felt the mage to be completely overpowered and far too easy to 'master' Being all powerful should come at the price of difficulty to play, because it is more fun and rewarding to actually have to learn and plan a certain build instead of having it all given to you by time played alone.

* What do you like and dislike about the Mage?

Liked: Well I liked the change from traditional D&D style memorization to a mana model. Liked the Origin story, history of magic, and the fade. I

Disliked: There is a reason the saying 'Jack of all Trades, but a Master of none' is brought up in every RPG made, with the DA:O mage you can really be a Master of Everything, eat your cake, your pie, and stab people in the face at your leisure, with zero downfalls. A lot of this perhaps belongs in the next topic, but I really hope to convey just how overpowered the mage can be.  By level 16 the game on nightmare becomes boringly easy with 2 mages. If i wanted to walk around invincible and all destroying I could've just put it on easy.


* Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Mage?

Underpowered: Hmm...lack of gear? But that effects all classes really. Perhaps i should mention how some of the tree lines are completely useless like everything past Heal.

Overpowered: For starters the ability to get top tier spells in every school, the fact that many first tier spells outperform top tier spells. Everything useful being based on 1 stat; Magic. You can wear any armor, cast any spell at max damage, and swing a sword with as much might as an fighter by putting every point in 1 stat. No willpower modifiers? No real drawbacks besides a half of second delay in casting time while using a sword? AoE's that not only do high damage, but CC for enough time to cast 2 more spells? 


* What are your favorite Mage specializations? What are your least favorite?

Favorite: Arcane Warrior, Blood Mage, Spirit Healer

Least Favorite: Shapeshifter


*What are your favorite Mage talent trees? What are your least favorite?

Favorite: entropy

Least Favorite:
Default mage tree and the creation tree since it contains the most
useless spells.

[i]My favorite class in RPG's is always a mage of some variety because of just that, their variety. DA:O takes away that variety and just gives you one all powerful character that can do everything all the time and it, in my opinion atleast, severely takes away from what the mage is suppose to be.

Modifié par Macadami, 07 février 2010 - 10:43 .

[draxynnus]

Asurablade wrote...

"This is fantasy. Warriors are allowed to have a supernatural ability to survive and keep fighting despite being struck by things that a normal person would be expected to be at least knocked unconscious from."

And yet warriors have no ability to 'charge' up to a condescending mage that's about to chuck a chain lightning on you because you have to strut up to them in a rather hunch-back like stance. Oh wait that's unnecessary.. yes i agree warriors can tank mages any day they just need to chug some health poultices here and there, whilst slowly creeping up to a mage until you can watch your character knock down the mage and auto-attack him to death. Sheer tactical ingenuity ha.

A shortfall that was discussed in the Warrior thread.

One piece of weirdness that just hit me is that nature damage is the type of damage normally associated with poison (except, for the Walking Bomb line...) and this is represented in what monsters are resistant or immune to it - namely, those that you would expect to be immune or resistant to poison. Where this becomes a problem, however, is when you notice that Stonefist also inflicts nature damage - when you'd normally expect poison resistance or immunity to have little or nothing to do with your ability to resist blunt force trauma from a flying rock.

[Aseya]

Mirander wrote...

imikedoyle wrote...

Victor Wachter wrote...
* What do you like and dislike about the Mage?

For rogues and warriors, the quickbar at the bottom of the screen is fine.
By the time you're playing a high level mage, the fixed number of slots provides
you with nowhere near enough options to have all your spells available.

For example, my mage character at level 20 has none of the persistient
powerups on the quick bar, no heal or lyrium potions, and still I need to go in to
the full spell list that pauses the game to select some useful spells.

The mage, at least, needs something like in the NWN games where you got
multiple quick-bars by pressing CTRL or SHIFT

Other than that, playing my third playthrough at the moment with a mage, and
having a great time.

Even on three playthroughs, with Morrigan and Wynne or my party and on this play through
my PC being a mage,  there are still some spells I havent even tried yet. Lots of flexibility
and possibilities here. Well done!

Well, you can expand the size of the hotbar (on the PC at least, I can't speak to the consoles).  Click on the right side of the hotbar, and drag it out as far as you need.  You can drag it out far enough to go across the entire bottom of the screen.

by the time u get close to level 25 even fully expanded bar is not enough for all your spel, potions and some other special ablities in my eperience especialy if u add another 3 spells via books

[Khayness]

* What do you like and dislike about the Mage?
I like that various skills give room for personalisation a lot, but Mage is so overpowered it's not fun. I got Fireball at Ostragar and ate everything for breakfast with Grease. Once I figured out Cheat of the Century the big battles weren't that hard anymore.
* Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Mage?
Maybe underpowered if I just get skills randomly, but I doubt it. Overpowered in any ways. My favourite Mage balance was in Divine Divinity: Mages (wizards) start as damn weak and by the end you are a monster, but feels right to get back on the game for the punishment you endured at the first half.
* What are your favorite Mage specializations? What are your least favorite?
Well Spirit Healer goes well with everything. Arcane Warrior is useful, took Blood Mage for RP value, saved me sometimes when I was out of mana, but nothing biggie. Shapeshifter looks bad compared to other speccs.
* What are your favorite Mage talent trees? What are your least favorite?
I loved Primal/Spirit combo. Not that into hexing myself, but all the trees are fine.

[draxynnus]

Personally, I dislike the "I suck now so I can rock later!" model of "balance". I'd rather see the classes balanced as much as possible at all level, even if it means the martial characters are pulling superhuman stunts at high levels. They're powerful warriors and rogues in a fantasy setting - they should have some degree of superhuman-ness!

[Macadami]

draxynnus wrote...

Personally, I dislike the "I suck now so I can rock later!" model of "balance". I'd rather see the classes balanced as much as possible at all level, even if it means the martial characters are pulling superhuman stunts at high levels. They're powerful warriors and rogues in a fantasy setting - they should have some degree of superhuman-ness!

then they need to increase the difficulty substantially, once you understand basic tactics, what spells do what, Nightmare doesn't even provide a challenge playing a mage.

[Aldain]

* What do you like and dislike about the Mage?

One huge like is, obviously, the options. As a Warrior or Rogue, you're pretty much limited to picking a target and start hitting it with a stick. Not so with a mage. You've got crowd control, damage, debilitation, buffs. I always feel powerful playing as a mage, something which seems to be lacking with the other classes. It's just insane amounts of fun blasting stuff away with a Fireball and then frying them with Lightning

Dislikes.. well, the enormous amount of activated powers. Having literally dozens of spells is nice, but you always end up just using the ones that fit best. There's also the very real issue with not having enough space on the quickbar (yes, I've extended it as far as it'll go, it's not enough even on a widescreen). This leads to lots of interesting spells and sustainables not being used. Personally I think all the trees could benefit from pure passive benefits, not sustaineds.
This is also a reason I actually enjoy the Mage talent line (two pure passives, both of which are reasonably useful without being overpowered).
I've actually gone through the different talent lines and wrote down which particular spells I feel aren't useful, as I am sure you'll be happy to recieve such criticism

Primal:
Earthquake: It's.. a third-tier spell that does what Grease does, except it's not part of a combo. Never use it, only grab it as a prereq för Petrify.
Chain Lightning: The prospect of an area effect - spell without friendly fire and a nearly irresistible damage-type is nice. In reality, it falls short. Annoyingly long casttime (vulnerable to interruption), very long cooldown, and absolutely crap damage unless you're firing it into a throng of 12+ creatures. It'd fit fine if it were third tier, but now it's fourth tier and then you (by you I mean I) expect it to pack more of a punch.

Creation:
Mass Rejuvenation: I try and use it, but it barely regenerates enough mana/stamina for one minor spell/ability.. and it's fourth tier. Bit torn on this one, all fourth tier's can't be fantastic after all.. just feels meh. Maybe up the duration a bit?
The entire enhancement line: As a player, I don't bother with these. They work fine if you're running a mage on Tactics though, it just becomes an annoying clickfest having to reapply them constantly. Possibly they could all be sustaineds? Although that might be a bit overpowered. Haste is alright, good benefits but costs a lot of mana to run during combat.
Spell Wisp: Useless. Miniscule bonus to Spellpower, and the fatigue hurts. Not sure what to do with it.

Spirit:
Anti-magic Ward: Seems bugged. Great in theory, but I've seen several spells go through it (Paralyze being the most annoying). If it worked, it'd be fine.
Mana Cleanse: Becomes pointless once you have Mana Clash, and I honestly never use it before then either. Doesn't seem to have any appreciable effect on enemies, they happily cast away in spite of (supposedly) having mana drained.
Death Syphon: Good spell, bad range. Really, really bad range. You usually have to stand on top of dead enemies, literally, to get it to trigger.
Crushing Prison: Used to be an excellent spell, now it's nerfed and just doesn't last long enough. Once past level 7 or so it won't even kill a white enemy, and bosses are typically immune to the immobilizing effect of it.

Entropy:
Disorient: -5 attack/defense. Why? Never use it, despite miniscule mana cost. It's essentially a half-powered Weakness, which is already a not so great spell.
Walking Nightmare: Tier 4. Bugged? Often have enemies just decide to attack my teammembers, could just be that the effect (attack other enemies) doesn't discriminate between enemies and group members, so they just attack whatever's closest. If they became allies or ended up stunned more often, that'd be nice. End up taking it for flavor, and then never using it
Death Magic: Same issue as Death Syphon, incredibly crappy range.

* Is there anything
that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Mage?
Underpowered.. not a lot. See list above for totally biased opinions on underpowered spells.

If anything's overpowered, it's the masses of crowd control you get. Sleep/horror/stun/stun again/stun a third time, not to mention Blood Wound for stun + damage. In fact, Blood Mage on the whole is pretty overpowered, since you get a second virtually inexhaustible mana pool (although it does require some micromanagement).
I actually feel like you're lacking a bit in damage spells.. there's only one instant fire and forget area effect spell, Fireball. Rest are persistant over time, like Blizzard (which inevitably leads to tactics-directed companions running into them and dying horribly), or are Cones, in which case you have to run up fairly close to the enemy, often leading to agro problems and the Pincushion Mage - syndrome. I also think Lyrium potions are a bit too potent. Seeing as you'll have skyhigh Magic attribute, they restore a *lot* of mana (even the cheapest sort), and they're cheap to produce. Maybe reduce effectiveness on them a bit?

* What
are your favorite Mage specializations? What are your least favorite?
Favourite.. I don't really have one. I enjoy being the blaster with a bit of crowd control, and there's nothing that facilitates that, apart from Blood mage, which is quite fun. Though I try to stay away from BM, as it's pretty seriously OP (see above).
Spirit Healer is fun to stick on a support mage since you really need Group Heal to do your job properly, so I guess that'd be my pick, purely because it's necessary as a healer.

Least favourite:
Arcane Warrior: Fun in theory, bloody boring in practice. You turn on a dozen or so sustainables and auto-attack through the entire battle (after firing off your most potent spells and running out of mana). Very powerful, you just don't have any abilities to activate and.. it gets dull fast.
Shapeshifter: You meant this class as a joke right? Long casttime, exceptionally weak forms with very few special abilities. And you give up ALL spellcasting ability while shifted. No, no, no..

*
What are your favorite Mage talent trees? What are your least favorite?
Favourite is naturally Primal, with Entropy as second. It just feels very mage-y to conjure fire and ice from the air and send enemies flying with a well-placed Fireball (I may have mentioned this already). Entropy is also very funny for it's myriad control options.
Least favourite would then obviously be Creation and Spirit. Creation is an "ok" tree, really got nothing against it.
Spirit is just meh. Walking Bomb can be fun, but it requires some micromanagement to keep companions from running up to hit the infected target (and thus dying themselves in the explosion). Both the Anti-Magic and Mana Alteration lines in Spirit are dull as dust, even though Mana Clash is just ridicolously strong..


Ah, and that ends this diatribe of my strange opinions:innocent:

Modifié par Aldain, 07 février 2010 - 02:35 .

[Ariq007]

Likes/Dislikes:
I really like the variety that mages offer.  Being able to cherry-pick different talents from different trees is a luxury the others classes don't have.  I LOVE the spell combo mechanic, and was glad to see a similar concept included in ME2.  Just wish there were more combos to discover!

Like most, I absolutely loathe the robe/headgear selection for mages.  I don't mind the shoulder-fur robes, but the hats are ridiculous.  Only a few styles to choose from, and not a single good one.

Underpowered/Overpowered:
The class as a whole seems to be pretty well balanced.  Certain skills I found underpowered (Earthquake, Spellbloom), while others were too situational (Spirit School sans Telekinesis line).  Blood Wound may be a little overpowered, but nothing game-breaking.  Also, I think Arcane Master in the Arcane line could be a little better for being a tier 4 talent.

Best/Worst Specializations:
I haven't tried Arcane Warrior so I don't know how it plays, but I love the concept.  Offers the mage a truly new way to play.  Blood mage and Spirit Healer have some good abilities, no complaints there.

Shapeshifting, however, is completely over-powered and needs to be nerfed. Now.  I mean, why even bother with spells or companions when I can turn into a bear or some bugs and completely destroy armies of high-dragons and revenants.  "Oh, so you're the Archdemon, eh?  Oooh, I'm so scared, I... I.... oh look, now I'm a spider, biotch!  Didn't see that comin' didya?  How do ya like that web I just threw at ya?  Bow before my sheer awesomeness!!!"

But seriously, Shapeshifting needs work.  Great concept, poor execution.  If it ever does get fixed, having it fuse well with Arcane Warrior would be sweet.

Favorite/Least Favorite Talent Trees:
I don't really have a favorite (besides Shapeshifting ), but I do like the Death and Telekinises lines from Spirit, pretty much all of Entropy, any Glyph spells and most of Primal (Earth line is okay, but nothing spectacular).   No real least-favorites either.

[Tolkiens Padawan]

draxynnus wrote

Tolkiens Padawan wrote...

Is chain
lightning useful? I dindn't learn it, because it says it goes from one
creature to another and so on and can hurt group members. So why the
hell should I risk to use it?

Actually, despite the ingame
description, I've never seen either lightning or chain lightning cause
friendly fire. Chain lightning is actually a quite useful spell to
throw into a melee.

Thanks for the info! (Morrigan would have liked it for sure ;-))

Modifié par Tolkiens Padawan, 07 février 2010 - 04:05 .

[LolaRuns]

All I can say is that I really like playing Mage. And so me that is unusual. I'm normally always a Warrior type who just doesn't care enough to work oneself into the details of the other classes. While I do get the point about the mage being almost too easy in DAO, for me that was like the only thing that managed to persuade me to give mage (and even rogue) a try. LOVE all the group effect spells.

[Mikey_205]

Positives

The power I like it as it is. My mage can't do the single damage of a warrior or rogue. I think its a nice change from 90% of games which have pathetic magic and always have melee on top. I think the rogue and warrior would be better served to be given some extra utility rather than reducing the power of mages.

Blood mage specialisation: simple change which really added to the class. I love the fact you had a moral dilemma to make to gain the extra power and I actually wish specialisations re-locked after you made a new character.

The lore: in a word its brilliant and the most original element of Dragon Age by far.

Negatives

Shapeshifting: it should be like the Fade variant which was so much better and more interesting. I would also like interesting more mythical forms such as drakes and liches.

Why in cutscenes does my mage act like a warrior (final cutscene with archdemon and if you are evil at the temple. I want to use magic in these scenes.

Specialisation choice there should be some specialisations for archetypal wizards

The hats just look abysmal please, please actually spend some time making some good looking hoods or helmets for mages

Robes were a bit better the Tevinter style were okay, but there was not enough variety. Why is 90% of time invested in creating new massive armours and nothing in light armours or robes.

[swan_tower]

This is based on one complete rogue playthrough (using Morrigan all the time, and Wynne some of the time), and one half-completed mage playthrough (using Morrigan all the time, and Wynne some of the time.)  I'll get to mechanics issues and the like in a moment, but first off I want to say that I wish I had more than two mage NPC options, one pre-statted for damage output and one pre-statted for buffing; I tend to favor the former, which means that if I'm not playing a mage, I pretty much *have* to take Morrigan with me.  And if I'm trying to do a "nice" playthrough, my subconscious has to work to justify why I've got her in the party.  I recognize that asking for more mage companions = asking for more content, of a sort that requires non-trivial development (scripting, voice acting, etc), but the companions are so heavily skewed towards warrior-types (arguably there are 6 of them); it would be nice to see more balance toward mages (only 2) and rogues (only 2).

(Likewise, more than one mage origin would be nice.  But again, that's a fair bit of development, so I understand it's not a small thing to ask for.)

In general: I like mages.  My preference is for highly tactical play, micro-managing my characters, and mages really reward that style; as someone else said, there's a lot of fun to be had in using the perfect spell at exactly the right moment.  On the other hand, there's pretty much nothing mages can't do: single-target damage, DOT, AOE, CC, man if I could stack my party with four mages I probably would.  Thanks to the slow running speed, Morrigan or whoever has usually chucked off a fireball to dump the whole crowd on their butts, dropped Crushing Prison on the leader, and started casting a third spell before my warrior and rogue even get within range.  (The one downside to this is that my mages regularly draw aggro, even with my warriors running around in massive armor going "RARRRRR THREATEN TAUNT."  I can only assume this is because the amount of damage they deal out.)

Specializations: my pattern so far, on both playthroughs, for everybody except Morrigan (because she's locked into Shapeshifter), has been to go Spirit Healer and Blood Mage.  The former just for Group Heal (and then Wynne takes Revival), and the latter just for the bonuses you get from specializing -- though I do intend to try playing around with Blood Wound on my current mage run.  In general, I have little interest in the spells that come with the specializations; I'd rather buy more main-line tricks.  Arcane Warrior just doesn't interest me at all: I've got enough selection of melee-types, thanks, and would rather not add to the list.  And Shapeshifter . . . yeah.  Other people have already covered this one.

One of the neatest things about shapeshifting in the Fade (aside from the insta-transformation) was that it had lots of different uses, not all of them combat-related.  I'd love to see that be true in the normal world, too.  For example, your earliest form could be good for stealthy scouting.  In general, it could be interesting to see mages have at least a line or two of non-combat spells: invisibility (if you decide to change rogue stealthing), maybe something charm-like to help you get around difficult Coercion checks, etc.  There are a lot of possibilities, and it might be nice to give mages (and warriors, for that matter) some versatility of the sort rogues have, with uses during regular play.

Individual spells: not much to say here, except to ditto the disappointment with Chain Lightning, and the feeling that Crushing Prison has perhaps been made *too* weak.  (Contra some other comments here, though, I've seen Cone of Cold fail to work on enemies, and more than once.  It's still very handy, of course -- I even managed to freeze the archdemon a time or two -- but it isn't an inevitable success.)

Since people have been talking a lot about the mage clothes, this seems as good a place as any to say I like the general look of clothes in the game.  There are certain structural patterns (like the across-the-shoulder cut) that help the fashions feel real, rather than being random ideas tossed into a fabric blender.  Having said that, I ditto the wish that unique robes would actually look *unique*, rather than a new color palette for the same robe you've been wearing since the Circle Tower.  Pretty much the only piece that qualifies is Morrigan's outfit, and then I just can't get over the ridiculousness of her top.  (As I said on another thread, I keep expecting to loot a genlock's body and find the rare Adhesive Coating drop that explains how her clothes stay on.)  She's obvious fanservice for the straight males in the crowd, and has no equivalent in the game: Alistair doesn't come with a special Sexy Beast outfit, restricted only to him, with pretty good bonuses, and an upgraded version provided later in the game so you can continue to parade him around half-dressed.  It would be ridiculous on him?  Well, I find it ridiculous on Morrigan, too.

And yeah, the hats are silly. :-)

One final tiny touch: there are points in the game where you have the option of killing a character (not in combat) or letting them live.  It disappoints me that if you're playing a mage, you *still* whip out a knife and slit their throats.  That always breaks my immersion a bit.  I know it's extra animation, but I'd like to see mages continue to act like mages, and use their staffs.

Thanks for these threads, btw.  It's been instructive to see what other people do with the various classes.  And I'd wholeheartedly be in favor of more dev questions about other aspects of the game -- monsters, quests, etc.

[Theinen83]

Ok. I don't understand all the complaints of "balance issues." When I hear balance issues, I think about MMO where they attempt to make all the classes equal in some sense so that people who decide to play one particular class aren't always being outdone by the other classes. This is a single player game. Crushing Prison, imo, did seem a bit overpowered and cheap. So I didn't use it unless I was in a bind.

Big Ogre running at us but we're somewhat weakened from dealing with the mini horde with an emissary? Fine. I cast Crushing Prison on him and regroup. Just walked into an ambush and there's like six rogues stun locking you with with scattershot? What? NOW they're picking people off with arrow of slaying? Force Field on the tank, or whoever else is still standing while you revive someone and try to regroup. Most of the spells people are claiming to be overpowered are intended to just be clutch spells, or they're playing on a lower difficulty where the drawbacks like friendly fire don't come into play. Now I'll admit cone of cold is a bit overpowered, but that's the spell of choice for enemy mages when they're in a clutch. Then they run away.

I don't feel the mage itself is overpowered, it's just that people are wondering "What if?" or "Can I?" and looking for cheap ways to play, and once they exploit it and get addicted to that exploit, the game becomes boring and they cry for more. I don't think that's reason to ruin game play for others who don't play like that. I hate minmaxing. One of my favorite mage builds was a death knight. I made an arcane warrior, specialized in the death and entropy type spells. Instead of sword and board, I took a greataxe or greatsword and went crazy. Kill somebody, spell might and animate dead, turn spell might off. I cast spells to weaken and drain my enemies while my pet charged in for the attack. After I broke them down a bit, and my pet/party hasn't killed everything, then I go in swinging. Likewise, I've also done arcane warrior with a great maul and made a cleric.

It's a choice to play that way. If the game is so easy, then obviously it's not forcing you to play that way. It's a single player game. So you're not competing for rewards or spots in parties with other players who play that way. Stop choosing to play the game in a cheap way and the game won't be cheap. Some moves won't be so "overpowered". It's nothing more than the players doing it to themselves. Let's use this opportunity to point out problems or issues we have with the game that we would like solved, rather than complaining because we've minmaxed and made the game far too easy. You don't HAVE to cast Storm of the Century at every encounter, y'know.

Also, like someone has pointed out, lyrium potions aren't any more overpowered than health potions. And it's not like you're "forced" to take a mage anywhere. I feel "forced" to take a rogue for the experience from unlocking chests and disarming traps. That's stuff I don't want to overlook because, overall, experience is somewhat limited in this game, with no respawning enemies or anything. You don't HAVE to even take a mage. Can just have your PC or the rogue in your party, since they get more skill points, to learn herbalism. Then set tactics that once party members fall below a certain hp % they pop a potion. I've played that way once and it wasn't any more difficult or easier than taking a mage. So I don't see the "balance issues" here.

Honest opinion on my view of the game. No need to wreak other people's experience because some players CHOOSE to play in a somewhat cheap way. I stand by my previous post, except to add, for enemy mages, they use more available spells to them and perhaps make only the PC immune to charm and such rather than the entire party, and allow them to use more of the spells. Then again, I would like improved AI for all enemies, but that doesn't belong here. lol

Modifié par Theinen83, 07 février 2010 - 09:58 .

[Morroian]

Theinen83 wrote...

I don't feel the mage itself is overpowered, it's just that people are wondering "What if?" or "Can I?" and looking for cheap ways to play, and once they exploit it and get addicted to that exploit, the game becomes boring and they cry for more. I don't think that's reason to ruin game play for others who don't play like that.

Agreed, mages aren't overpowered if you only have 1 in your party. I'm doing my 3rd play through on nightmare with my PC mage, Leliana specced as a bard/archer, Zevran as melee rogue and Alistair or Shale as the tank and its clearly not too easy.

[hexaligned]

Theinen83 wrote...

Ok. I don't understand all the complaints of "balance issues." When I hear balance issues, I think about MMO where they attempt to make all the classes equal in some sense so that people who decide to play one particular class aren't always being outdone by the other classes. This is a single player game. Crushing Prison, imo, did seem a bit overpowered and cheap. So I didn't use it unless I was in a bind.

Big Ogre running at us but we're somewhat weakened from dealing with the mini horde with an emissary? Fine. I cast Crushing Prison on him and regroup. Just walked into an ambush and there's like six rogues stun locking you with with scattershot? What? NOW they're picking people off with arrow of slaying? Force Field on the tank, or whoever else is still standing while you revive someone and try to regroup. Most of the spells people are claiming to be overpowered are intended to just be clutch spells, or they're playing on a lower difficulty where the drawbacks like friendly fire don't come into play. Now I'll admit cone of cold is a bit overpowered, but that's the spell of choice for enemy mages when they're in a clutch. Then they run away.

I don't feel the mage itself is overpowered, it's just that people are wondering "What if?" or "Can I?" and looking for cheap ways to play, and once they exploit it and get addicted to that exploit, the game becomes boring and they cry for more. I don't think that's reason to ruin game play for others who don't play like that. I hate minmaxing. One of my favorite mage builds was a death knight. I made an arcane warrior, specialized in the death and entropy type spells. Instead of sword and board, I took a greataxe or greatsword and went crazy. Kill somebody, spell might and animate dead, turn spell might off. I cast spells to weaken and drain my enemies while my pet charged in for the attack. After I broke them down a bit, and my pet/party hasn't killed everything, then I go in swinging. Likewise, I've also done arcane warrior with a great maul and made a cleric.

It's a choice to play that way. If the game is so easy, then obviously it's not forcing you to play that way. It's a single player game. So you're not competing for rewards or spots in parties with other players who play that way. Stop choosing to play the game in a cheap way and the game won't be cheap. Some moves won't be so "overpowered". It's nothing more than the players doing it to themselves. Let's use this opportunity to point out problems or issues we have with the game that we would like solved, rather than complaining because we've minmaxed and made the game far too easy. You don't HAVE to cast Storm of the Century at every encounter, y'know.

Also, like someone has pointed out, lyrium potions aren't any more overpowered than health potions. And it's not like you're "forced" to take a mage anywhere. I feel "forced" to take a rogue for the experience from unlocking chests and disarming traps. That's stuff I don't want to overlook because, overall, experience is somewhat limited in this game, with no respawning enemies or anything. You don't HAVE to even take a mage. Can just have your PC or the rogue in your party, since they get more skill points, to learn herbalism. Then set tactics that once party members fall below a certain hp % they pop a potion. I've played that way once and it wasn't any more difficult or easier than taking a mage. So I don't see the "balance issues" here.

Honest opinion on my view of the game. No need to wreak other people's experience because some players CHOOSE to play in a somewhat cheap way. I stand by my previous post, except to add, for enemy mages, they use more available spells to them and perhaps make only the PC immune to charm and such rather than the entire party, and allow them to use more of the spells. Then again, I would like improved AI for all enemies, but that doesn't belong here. lol

When we say balance (well when I do) we mean balanced against the difficulty of the game.  Saying "just don't use mages" is rediculous, and it's just making excuses for lazy game mechanics.  If it was only one or two cheap spells I coudl see your point, but it isn't.  I doubt I could make a mage even just picking stuff at random, that by level 12 or so didn't completely trivialize anything the games AI could throw at me.  You want God mode, thats fine, it's your game, thats what difficulties are for though.  Theres no reason the devs can't balance mages so that easy-normal are your cup o tea, and hard-nightamare actually offer a challange to other people.

[Sarielle]

Please, PLEASE stop putting fur shoulderpads on all the robe models that aren't the default circle robes. It fit for the Chasind robes...but not the others.





Also, mages are by far the most OP class in the game. Cherry picking + AoE damage + AoE CC is insane. Maybe a way to balance it by making the more spells you have in a school (IE, primal, creation, etc.) the more powerful the spells become (available up to current levels) but much weaker than currently if you just cherry pick?

That's probably a lot of work, I realize...I suppose just toning down all the AoE (because, let's face it, with half a brain friendly fire never enters into the picture) period would also help.

[draxynnus]

Aldain wrote...

*Primal:
Earthquake: It's.. a third-tier spell that does what Grease does, except it's not part of a combo. Never use it, only grab it as a prereq för Petrify.

If you ask me, this is exactly what makes Earthquake good. Consider the effects of combining the competition with Inferno...

If you used Grease, you now have a Grease Fire. Now, this is actually something I haven't tried in anger myself, but I've heard the extra damage is trivial - I'd rather have the snare. Or use both, and have the grease fire and the snare.

If you use Blizzard, on the other hand, the Blizzard is going to cut the damage your Inferno does by at least half - and the token damage that Blizzard itself does isn't going to make up the difference. Plus, Blizzard has a long-ish cast time, while Earthquake can be put down pretty much instantaneously.

In short - the lack of a combo is actually one of the things that makes Earthquake useful - you can use it secure in the knowledge that it's going to do its job regardless of whatever else you throw into the area, and it's not going to interfere with whatever else you throw into the area (apart from party members).

Modifié par draxynnus, 07 février 2010 - 10:38 .

[Sarielle]

distinguetraces wrote...

I really don't see a need to nerf mages. Taking advantage of AoE and crowd control is exactly the right approach to make this style of combat interesting and fun -- nerfing the effectiveness of those tactics would make the game more challenging, yes, but also less interesting: "Walk up to enemy. Attack. When wounded, heal." Dull!

In fact, I think the fix is to give rogues and warriors more effective AoE and crowd control lines themselves to bring them into parity with mages -- smoke bombs and such for rogues, expanded champion-style combat shouts for warriors, and so on.

That's not because I want an easy game -- I play on Nightmare, and it is a little annoying to me that with more than one mage, even Nightmare is pretty much a cakewalk. It's because of that I felt I had to remove Wynne from my mage PC's main party despite the fact that from an roleplaying standpoint he wants her around.

But the solution to that is not class balance but game balance. Give all the classes comparable toolsets so that all players can use the tactics that make combat interesting -- and then improve AI so that smarter enemies know how to use tactics themselves.

It just feels like "normal" would be pretty trivial if the other classes were brought up. Maybe not, though, if the AI was improved for those classes as well (for enemies, that is.)

[lazuli]

* What do you like and dislike about the Mage?
I like the feeling of power they have.  I like spell combos.  More of these would be welcome.

I dislike the huge amount of spells they obtain, simply because there is no room on the quick-bar for them.  More passive skills would have been welcome.

I dislike the large amount of redundant skills.  How many paralysis type skills do we need?  Granted, they all function a bit differently, but some of them just seem unnecessary.


* Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Mage?
Certain spells seem useless.  Rejuvenate and Mass Rejuvenation are far too weak.  Chain Lightning could use a slight increase in damage, decrease in cast time, or decrease in recharge time.  Not all of them though.  It is already essentially a life and stamina damage AoE that cannot hit your allies unintentionally.

Mana Clash is a niche spell, yet still ridiculously overpowered.  Sleep basically breaks the game once you get it.

Over all, though, the Mage is quite overpowered, at least when compared to the other classes.  Sure, they tend to fall apart under melee pressure, but they have plenty of spells to counter this.  Even taking one is enough to generally enough to buy your Warrior the time to taunt.  If I were tweaking game balance, I would consider giving the Warrior and maybe even the Rogue some mobility options to deal with Mages.  Or hell, throw something in the archery line that counters casters more reliably than Arrow of Slaying.  For example...
guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Distracting_Shot
guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Broadhead_Arrow


* What are your favorite Mage specializations? What are your least favorite?
The Mage specializations are underwhelming.  Spirit Healer is my favorite choice, but I never invest more than one spell point in it.  Blood Mage is fun, but I wish there were other ways to get it.

Shapeshifter and Arcane Warrior are my least favorite.  Even with Overwhelm, the inability to access your spells while shifted makes the Shapeshifter an unattractive choice.  Arcane Warriors have a ton of defensive options available to them, but that's what the tank is for.  And the tank has aggro control.  I have no interest in soloing the game, so I have no interest in the Arcane Warrior.


* What are your favorite Mage talent trees? What are your least favorite?
I like Cold, Sleep, Earth, and Healing (for Heal and Regeneration).  I'm not too keen on Death or Anti-Magic (past the useful Dispel Magic).

[swan_tower]

I also meant to say in my post that I hope the devs don't take too strongly to heart the comments from all the people saying "omg this is too easy even on nightmare difficulty" -- or rather, the message they should take away is that some of their players are very, very good. I personally fall much closer to the "casual gamer" end of things, and I appreciate the fact that I don't feel like the game is saying "HAHAHA come back later when you're ready, n00b." I play on normal difficulty, and could probably win fights without putting in all the tactical effort I do, but that's just fine by me: I put in that effort because it entertains me to do so, and in the meantime I'm more interested in the story.



So change the settings for nightmare if you want to -- cut spell durations in half, make more bosses shrug spells off the way the archdemon does, whatever -- but please don't nerf things right, left, and center for everybody. Like distinguetraces said, I'd rather see warriors and rogues given more useful crowd control and aoe and so on, so that they're equally interesting to play, rather than taking it away from mages. And I suspect your average casual gamer would agree.

[Theinen83]

relhart wrote...

When we say balance (well when I do) we mean balanced against the difficulty of the game.  Saying "just don't use mages" is rediculous, and it's just making excuses for lazy game mechanics.  If it was only one or two cheap spells I coudl see your point, but it isn't.  I doubt I could make a mage even just picking stuff at random, that by level 12 or so didn't completely trivialize anything the games AI could throw at me.  You want God mode, thats fine, it's your game, thats what difficulties are for though.  Theres no reason the devs can't balance mages so that easy-normal are your cup o tea, and hard-nightamare actually offer a challange to other people.

I'm not saying "don't use mages." The example I gave when I played through without mages was simply to see it's not like mages make or break the game. I mean I played through just as smoothly as I did with a mage, and yes, this was on nightmare. Everybody able to use poisons and one player specializing in them to make the stun poisons makes for just as good crowd control. That's what I meant. Likewise, if you get a mage, but don't pick your spells well (like I did on my first playthrough lol) then you have a severely useless character.

My point was simply that most of the spells that people say are overpowered and make the mage "unbalanced" are because they choose to use them that way. For example, Storm of the Century, which most people say are too strong and makes encounters trivial. To cast Storm of the Century, you have to have Spell Might active, and, unless you're on normal and below, try to make sure your party is away. Then chances are you're casting it in the beginning. So, you see people in a room and cast Blizzard on the room. BAM! They taking damage and probably get frozen. Then you just follow through with Tempest. You now have the super strong, incredibly wide ranged mega-spell. But it's your choice to continue doing that setup and casting that spell. The spell itself doesn't make the game easy. Your choice to keep casting it does. That's no reason to complain about the game to the devs and demand they make it weaker or remove your ability to cast it.

See what I mean? Most of the complaints are about the player's personal choice to do something and to continue to do it. Not necessarily due to the game itself. I think the mage's strength matches the lore perfectly. I mean seven mages were sent to fight with Cailan's army and that was considered too many. One mage is supposed to be able to turn the tide of war. What do you expect from having two or three in your small party facing small encounters? On the flip side, if they were weaker, there would be the same thing as people expected from blood mage. Our blood mage abilities severely lack compared to the lore of how dangerous they are.

That's why I said only make the PC immune to charm, instead of the entire party. Then make the enemy AI use their full spells and abilities. Perhaps give each type of enemy tactics of their own. I've have swarming insects and the death cloud used on me, maybe once each. Enemy mages only cast chain lightning, fireball, cone of frost, cone of flame and a few of the glyphs. They don't really use any other spells available to them. Then, our mages are protected, for the most part, whereas we target their mages first and no one tries to save them. So yeah, we agree on that AI should be improved and maybe even give each type of enemy have different tactics. Like if the rogue has been hit with a magic spell, fire Arrow of Slaying at the bloody mage! lol.

I just had to double back and explain that I wasn't saying. "WELL STOP BEING THE HAXX0RZ N00B!!" and really just saying, there's no need to nerf the mage and it's spells, but rather step up enemy AI. I like to explain in examples, sorry. Gives me diarrhea of the fingers lol.