273 réponses à ce sujet

[WreshmanMcGoo]

Victor Wachter wrote...

Wrapping up our series of dev questions on character classes, we now ask about the Mage. As we continue to plan for the future of the Dragon Age franchise, we're interested in hearing your feedback regarding the different classes.

In this thread, we'd like to ask your opinions of the Mage class. You can still comment in previous weeks' Warrior and Rogue topics. We'll continue the dev questions next week with all new topics.

* What do you like and dislike about the Mage?
* Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Mage?
* What are your favorite Mage specializations? What are your least favorite?
* What are your favorite Mage talent trees? What are your least favorite?



Be sure to answer the poll on Mage specializations as well!

I like just about everything about the mage aside from spell/ability points. I feel like there's way too many spells but not enough points even if you max out. I think since Mages generally have higher intelligence and wisdom in RPGs then they should as a result have more points to put into spells. My largest gripe though is that the mage can't be the queens consort at the end of the game. Why not? You saved Ferelden so you better be entitled to just about anything you want.

I think everything is balanced out pretty well in regards to spell power to be honest and overall it's a great class. I would like to see the top tier ice storm do more damage but that's really about it.

My favourite mage specializations are Arcane Warrior + Blood Mage. It's basically unstoppable. The top tier Combat Magic where you go ethereal is pretty awesome.

I love death magic as well as elemental. I like draining life/mana from opposing oponents as well as just doing wicked natural damage. I never really got into the whole healing or spirit tree although crushing prison is pretty awesome and of course heal is always useful.

[LordPaul256]

* What do you like and dislike about the Mage?
* Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Mage?
* What are your favorite Mage specializations? What are your least favorite?
* What are your favorite Mage talent trees? What are your least favorite?

Mage is easily my favorite class.

Like --- The range of spells to choose from.  The other classes have perhaps 4 attacks you will use in any given battle, and then wait to recharge, but a mage can choose from as many as you can fit on your bar (which could be bigger) to make combat really interesting and different from battle to battle.

Dislike --- The lack of gear.  There is only so much good gear to be found, and once you have the DLC, you pretty much get it all right away.  (Somewhat true fo the other classes as well, but mages have it by far the worst).  The hats are also pretty horrible looking.

Underpowered --- Lightning chain.  I restarted my first mage (and 'blind run' first character) because I disliked it so much.  Earth chain could use some help, though Stone Fist & Petrify are both very good.  The other two bring the whole chain down.  Never used the creation spells past Heal (a necessity).  Don't know if that means they're bad or I should try them out more.

Overpowered --- Cone of cold.  It's just too useful not to have.  I honestly don't know what I'd do without it.  Same for Crushing Prison.  When you see an enemy mage, it's basically a race to cast that before they cast it on you. 

Favorite Mage Specialization --- Spirit Healer.  Group Heal is very, very useful.

Lease Favorite Mage Specialization --- Shapeshifter.  Useless.

Favorite Talent Trees --- Whoops.  I pretty much already answered this.  Cold, Telekinesis, & Sleep.

Least Favorite Talent Tree --- All of the Creation ones exept Heal.  Enhancements & Glyphs especially.  Enhancements are just copies of what other classes can do themselves & better, while Glyphs are too static. 


One Last Thing --- The balance between HP & how much damage you can take as a mage, especially with the powers at your command, is perfect.  Please don't change that.  The only thing I would change is Crushing Prison or Curse of Mortality, which are basically both "instant kills" when they are cast on you, making it a race to cast the former on enemy mages before they cast either of those on you.  

Modifié par LordPaul256, 13 février 2010 - 07:14 .

[Stabby McGoodstab]

What do you like and dislike about the Mage?

I love the spell variety. I love how unique some of the spells are, such as Walking Bomb, and the spell combinations. I always have a hard time choosing my spells because there are just so many good ones.

My dislikes are minor. I don't like the apparel very much. Furry shoulder pads are weird. Don't get me started on the hats.

Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Mage?

Overpowered: Dependant on very few stats. I need only Magic and WIllpower, maybe some Constitution if I'm a Blood Mage. Compare that to Rogues who need Dexterity, Cunning, some Strength for gear and some Willpower for special attacks. Compare also to Warriors who need Strength, Dexterity, some Constitution and Willpower.

Underpowered: A few individual spells are underpowered:
Mass Paralysis -- Paralysis Explosion is much, much better
Chain Lightning -- Too little damage, too much mana
Spell Wisp -- Effect is too small, especially compared to Spell Might
Waking Nightmare -- Maybe it's just me, but it seems like the enemies just attack my party when this is active.
Animate Dead -- My only complaint is that I can't use it in most boss fights because there are no corpses.
Disorient -- Does this even work?
Mana Cleanse -- Obsolete with Mana Clash
Staff Focus -- Staff damage is very minor anyway.
Arcane Mastery -- 5 spellpower isn't worth the investment

What are your favorite Mage specializations? What are your least favorite?

I only tried the Blood Mage and Spirit Healer specializations. My only complaint is that most Spirit Healer spells seem redundant, but no complaints otherwise.

What are your favorite Mage talent trees? What are your least favorite?

Favourite: Glyphs, Mana Drain, Hexes, Walking Bomb, Sleep, Mind Blast,

Least favourite: Earth, Lightning, Spell Wisp, Dispel

[Angela1027]

What do you like and dislike about the mage?

LIKE:
I love the the idea of spell combinations. Whoever thought up this idea needs an overpowered-mage-type raise. They afford another level of thinking to battles. Could we have more of them please? They needn't be combos that produce massively powerful effects; they just need to be combos that add another dimension to the way one might play the game.

DISLIKE:
The gear--especially the female versions. I actually don't mind all the feathers etc.--they add a material element that hasn't been used very much for robes. But add feathers to belts to strange, thigh-high leggings/boots--and that's just too many fashion trends in one outfit--any fashion mag could tell you that. I got the Anora robes mod so that my mage wasn't a fashion "don't". The design of Morrigan's outfit was nice--unique and it fit with her character. The Circle mage robes are okay--if a bit plain. I actually like the mage robes in World of Warcraft, though I can understand that these might be a bit too flambouyant for a game as based in reality as DAO.  As a middle ground, how about robes designed along the lines of the concept art for the game--like the robes you see on the white haired female mage in the DAO start window (her staff is quite nice looking too).   And please remove the cone head caps---I think this is the ugliest gear I have ever seen in any game I have ever played.


Favorite and least favorite specialization

FAVORITE: Spirit healer.

LEAST FAVORITE: Shape shifter. I loved the idea when I saw it, but it is totally broken. It takes a while to cast, and the shapes aren't that strong, but what bugs me most is that you can't seem to use a health poultice while shape-shifted. Heck, even Dog can use the poultices, and he doesn't even have opposable thumbs! What's the point of trying to melee if you have to shift out of your animal form to use a poultice (and then wait for the cooldown so you can go back to animal form)? In the fade, you could change shapes at will and the shifting took two seconds, which made not being able to use potions while shifted a minor thing.

Favorite and least favorite talent tree

FAVORITE: The glyph spells, because they are generic enough to be quite versatile.  They can be combined and  they can be used offensively or defensively in all sorts of situations.  The primal school is also fun because I like the idea of a mage being this entitiy with barely controllable power right under the surface.
LEAST FAVORITE: The anti-mage spells (mana clash, spell shield, etc.) because the enemy mages in the game are so weak, why would anyone waste points in these pointless areas? There are so many other ways to prevent an enemy mage from being able to cast spells (e.g. cone of cold, paralyzation, crushing prison, shield bash, etc.), and these other spells can also be used against non-magic types as well.
Now, if enemy spell casters were really tough and interesting, I might change my mind.Is there something that is underpowered/overpowered on the mage?

UNDERPOWERED:
As others have said: chain lightning. Less damage than you'd expect from a tier 4 spell, and to add insult to injury, it takes forever to cast it and then you have to wait forever if you (for some strange reason) want to cast it again. oh, and can I mention the mind-boggling brokenessof shape shifters one more time?.
OVERPOWERED:
The only real thing that is overpowered about the mage is the ability to pick your spells a la carte.  When you can get all the best spells in your arsenal, the game becomes way to easy.  Not only that, but unless you impose your own spell restrictions, every mage you play starts looking the same and they lose any sort of special identity.  At the same time, self-imposed restrictions (e.g. "i will only take spells in the primal and spirit schools") are less fun because the game hasn't built in any perks for this limitation you're putting on your mage (like a specialization bonus).
 
Overall though, awesome game, and thanks for actually asking the opinions of the players!

[Chokladglass]

I like playing as a mage, but I have to say using a staff does not look half as impressive as shooting fire from your fingertips. And there are way too few different robes.



I haven't tried Bloodmage or Arcane Warrior yet, but I loved Spirit Healer. Very useful, very powerful. When it comes to single spells, I prefer fire, ice and lightning. Old-fashioned damage dealers that look cool.

[Andari_Surana]

-DEVs many of us play games like DragonAge like they are a MMO...we like to strategize and make our character as powerful as we can, then put on the highest difficult setting, and see how much butt we can kick.  That's what's "fun" is atleast for some of us.  Spells that are game breakingly overpowered remove a lot of that fun because then u either take the overpowed talent and playing the game isn't as fun, or u live with knowing you purposesly are choosing not to make your character as strong as they could be, and that's not fun either....so....here's what needs to get fixed:

Mana Clash - What were u guys thinking?  Game Breaking
Huge Area Effect insta-kill anything with mana, even most bosses.  See a group of blood mage/Spirt healers, they all die to one insta cast on night mare.  This spells is game-breaking.  The damage for starters is often 4-5x more than normal spells like fireball, but only increases against boss type opponents to like 10-20x damage as they have more mana.  Game Breaking.  Even if you reduced damage  substantially (which i expect u will in some future patch), leaving a caster-class with no mana is almost as bad for an insta cast - should be a percentage drain (with a max effect) - e.g. reudce mana by like 40% (with max effect cap) so u can try following up with other spells to reduce mana further.  Or consider turning it into a "silence" type spell, so the affected come out of its duration w/ mana intact ready to open up a can of Whoop****

Entropic Death - Another what were u guys thinking.? Game Breaking.
Damage way too high.  Only slightly better in that death cloud requires a few seconds to cast.   Combo should give a marginal added benefit, not be like 10x better.  I know chance of shattering (insta kill) reduces on nightmare by a lot (and doesn't work on elites+), but unlike shattering this stkll combo works even on nightmare bosses and for the amount of damage it does - its nearly as powerful (well moreso, cause as i said shattering has already been balanced not to effect tough npcs).

Glyph of Negation - Overpowed, Removes the "fun" mages bring to an encounter.
Anything that drains all the mana from a mage in one insta cast, no chance to resist spell, is over powered.
U turn a dreaded mage (sometimes a group of them) into half an archer with not special abilities for an entire encounter in one spell.  Again I would consider turning into a silencing spell, if you step on it you can't cast a spell for x duration.  You can leave intact that no magic can affect anything standing on the glyph, that mechanic seems ok.


----OK, now some other thoughts, for expansions/sequels---

Root Spells - Where are they?
Everything seems to be paralyze, petrify, etc...  Which means the game is balanced around your opponents being entirely incapacitated.  Which means the duration of the spells goes way down in higher difficulties.  But if you had a root line, where warriors/rogues could switch to archery, mages could still cast, then u wouldn't need to diminish the duration of rooting as much as paralyze, etc, when you ramp up difficulty.  Besides this would bring up some strategic decisions between ranged/melee balanced parties, and abilty to remove effects like root.

Knocback Spells - Would be nice.
Some sort of way to keep corral your opponents into AE's.  Instead of just having to fix them where they already stand.  Something like Force-Wave or something to send a group of enemies flying backwards.  Glyph of replusion, one of the most popular spells kinda fills this role.

Spell Shield - Lame
Because the mage is almost always being hit by some sort of AE magic, and spell shield only blocks single target.  Fireballs, Chain Lightning, Cone of Cold, etc.  First, because that's what enemies seems to cast.  And Second, because the enemy has probably been taunted onto a warrior character.  Working some sort of mechanic for blocking/reducing AE damage (with the accompanying drain on mana fro each blocked spell) would vastly improve the shield, and open up strategic options like casting a fireball ontop of yourself when your surrounded by enemies.


Dark Spell Lines:
Demonic/Necromantic Summonings -  Like a Balor demon from lord of the rings, a succubus healer/mage , a six handed shiva archer.....    -  Needs more development than just animate dead.   Perhaps even a spell that lets you recruit/bind certain demons to be party members for evil characters.   Sonya Dryden would make an awesome zombie tank, and quite the interesting romance option

Modifié par Andari_Surana, 14 février 2010 - 12:36 .

[sami jo]

[quote]Victor Wachter wrote...
* What do you like and dislike about the Mage?

I love the sheer variety of playstyles that are possible with the mage.  I can choose to build a character who hangs back as a support figure, healing and improving the efficacy of the rest of my team; play as an AW who wades into the thick of things, using spells only rarely; or play as a tactical crowd control and damage dealer, keeping my team from being overwhelmed and dealing damage from afar.  I also love the rp potential.  There are inherent ethical dillemas in being a mage.  Mages are potentially very dangerous and powerful.  Do I want my character to hate the virtual prison that the Circle is or does my character agree with the Chantry that mages are too dangerous too be allowed to function without such close supervision?  Is my character horrified by the way mage children are treated, or should the emphasis in dangerous child be placed on the dangerous part, even if the child hurt others unintentionally? 

That leads me to my first complaint about the class.  The Chantry and the general public are described as being leery at best of mages, but that doesn't really show in the interactions between a mage PC and others.  My PC's have had stronger reactions to being elves.  And the origin story is...lacking.  The only options are to betray a friend or help him break the rules in a very serious way.  Both choices left a bitter taste in my mouth.  It was my least favorite of all the origin stories. 

My second complaint is the equipment available for the class.  There are only a handful of robes, they are all pretty ugly, and the most expensive set in the game is simply not very impressive.  The hats are ugly and close to useless.  The mage-specific glaves aren't bad, but they level out at 20% extra damage, which sounds like a lot but isn't compared to the things available to the other classes.  It isn't a big deal if I develope my mage as a damager, but it would be nice if my support mages could at least defend themselves for a little bit in a pinch.  The staves are few and disappointing; and there is only one sword for AWs.  It seems very strange to me that melee weapons can be enchanted to add/change their properties, but magic staves cannot, particularly after the conversation with the tranquil in Ostergar about how he does enchantments for the Circle and the Circle requesting runes after they are recruited?   
[/quote]

[quote]
* Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Mage?

It is possible to build a mage to be ridiculously powerful, or ridiculously underpowered.  I think that fits with the world of DA:O.  The Tevinter mages sank the entire city of Arlathan into the ground.  They conquered a virtually immortal people and supposedly unleashed the darkspawn on the world.  Duncan was hoping to put one with each company.  If only one mage could mage that muh of a difference, that suggests that mages even in Ferelden are very powerful.  Mages should be capable of being extraordinarily powerful. 
[/quote]

[quote]
* What are your favorite Mage specializations? What are your least favorite?

I will echo what many have said about the shapeshifting specialization.  I can see using it in much the same way that a rogue would use stealth out of combat, but it is nigh to useless in combat.  AW and spirit healer both work well.  I haven't played through with a character who would take the blood mage specialization yet, but I have put it on Morrigan.  If anything, it seems a little overpowered, but in keeping with the story, it really should be.
[/quote]


Be sure to answer the poll on Mage specializations as well![/quote]

[King Killoth]

Victor Wachter wrote...


* What do you like and dislike about the Mage?
I liked the ranged aspects of it and the spells looked very nice. what I disliked was the cloths there seemed to be only like four of them and the hats look silly as all can be. another thing I would hav liked to see or in this case hear is the mage resighting the spell or holding a book to use more power.

* Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Mage?
Ranged is where the mage thrived but close combat was  where I lost my mage alot. even with acain warrior my mage would not stand his ground and would end up dead.

* What are your favorite Mage specializations? What are your least favorite?
Blood mage is my favorite due to the ablity to dray manna from my enamys and even take them over for the battle. acrain warrior would have to be my least favorite. it didnt realy seem to do mutch in combat. it actual took me longer to cast spells with a sword than a staff. felt as if it should have made combat magic work the same on a sword as it would a staff but it didn't

* What are your favorite Mage talent trees? What are your least favorite?
the primal tree was the most effective in battle due to the area attacks and the cone attacks and the weapon buffs. this coverd your bases with a few points in healer you could take on the world. the least usefull would have to be death magic. it is mostly holds and weakening buffs but thats a bout it other than the life drain spell it dose not help out mutch.


Be sure to answer the poll on Mage specializations as well!

[joey_mork84]

I like the spell system quite a bit. It's very easy to choose/cast spells and the spells themselves are awesome! Also, the way some spells follow the target when it moves is great, too. However, some of them take a while to get to the target if you are at medium or long range. If they were sped up just a little bit, it would help, but that's just minor. All in all I think the Mage class is great!

Some of the elemental spells, such as Winter's Grasp and Shock, should be able to do more damage IMO. As I haven't played a mage for very long, I can't rightly say that any are overpowered. The few spells I have are either just right or could do more damage IMO.

My favorite Mage specialization would have to be Blood Mage. It seems to have the best spells with the most power and usability for me. And if I had to pick a least favorite, I suppose it would be Shapeshifter simply because in some forms, it limits your abilities and spells. I like variety and shapeshifting kind of goes in the opposite direction of variety as far as what spells/skills you are able to use.

My favorite Mage talent tree is a hard one to pick. It would be a tie between Death and Draining, as they do the most damage that I've seen (and are more fun to watch, especially Walking Bomb). As I said before, I haven't played a Mage for very long so I can't say I have a least favorite, but if I had to pick one, it would be the Deblilitation tree. I have yet to find a use for it since it does basically the same things as Winter's Grasp, Petrify, and Glyph of Paralysis.

As I said before, these are just my opinions on the Mage class. I'm sure my opinions in a few areas will change the farther I get into the game while using a mage PC, but these are my initial responses. So far, though, Mage is my favorite of all the classes!

[BohemundI]

I never cast Force Field on my allies to exploit the AI that keeps on attacking an immune character.

However, I love using it on enemies. My mage learned Force Field very early because I was always interested in the psychic side of magic. I was disappointed when patch 1.02 reduces the duration of Force Field on enemies.

Perhaps you guys could keep the Force Field duration on allies as short as it currently is, and revert the duration of Force Field on monsters to the longer duration of patch 1.01?

I would also like for Cleansing Aura to remove the injuries of its caster. I don't think it makes a lot of sense that the caster can heal and cure the wounds of all nearby allies (party members and allied NPCs included), yet he cannot even cure his own injuries and has to buy a healing kit to do so.

Here are some Dragon Age Wiki links to the spells in question:

http://dragonage.wik.../Cleansing_Aura

http://dragonage.wik...iki/Force_Field

I would like to conclude by saying that I love DA's spells/talents system. It is very flexible and easy to customize 2 characters of the same class in completely different ways. I certainly look forward to see the new talents offered in Awakening.

EDIT: To add a bit about my mage playstyle, I am a roleplaying Mage that has never used any Primal School spell combination. I have heard people say that is is the Primal School combos that make the mage overpowered. I feel that the psychic school (Telekinesis spells) is very fun to use because it allows me to control enemies. I like to use other control spells such as the Blood Magic school and Waking Nightmare.

I also like to roleplay a "self-sufficient" mage, the hermit kind of hero that will leave the world behind after his task is done. So I was hoping that Cleansing Aura would heal my own injury... that way my mage won't have to go to the market every now and then to buy a healing kit for his broken limb. Furthermore, I do not believe that healing kits can heal concussions (only magic can ). So please change Cleansing Aura to make it affect the caster too!

Modifié par BohemundI, 14 février 2010 - 05:11 .

[EvilIguana966]

* What do you like and dislike about the Mage?

I like the concept, but balance wise I have a lot of complaints. 

* Is there anything that you feel that is underpowered or overpowered on the Mage?

Mages overall are too powerful with respect to the other character classes and the opposition.  Some spells are just ridiculously powerful, such as Mana Clash which completely trivializes enemy mages by eliminating any number of them almost instantly.  It is a literal win-button for some of the game's hardest fights. 

The biggest problem I have with mages is not their potential power level, which should be very high, but the fact that they don't suffer enough of a defensive penalty as a counterbalance.  The key problem, as I see it, is the short casting time and the difficulty in interrupting the spells.  The biggest downside to spell casters in D&D games has always been the fact that their spells took several seconds to cast and could be interrupted along the way.  Zero casting time spells were extremely rare and typically limited in power.  However in Dragon Age, ultra powerful abilities like Mana Clash and Cone of Frost are instant use.  Zero casting time should generally be limited to emergency crowd control and spells with longer cooldown timers, things that by their very nature need to be instant to do their jobs but are balanced by their limited uses.  In general a mage should not be able to stand toe to toe with an even level warrior or rogue and come out ahead.  Warriors need to have their place cemented as the guy who distracts the opposition long enough for the mage to do his dirty work. 


* What are your favorite Mage specializations? What are your least favorite?


My favorite is spirt healer.  Group Heal and Revival are wonderful spells.  Lifeward, on the other hand, is nearly useless.  It's an interesting concept that falls flat in reality.  It is a bad idea to frequently let party members reach the health level where lifeward kicks in, and you have to recast the spell every minute so you can't just set it and forget it as a kind of failsafe measure.  Cleansing aura is useful only because it cures injuries.  It has a huge upkeep cost in addition to a
huge undocumented mana drain.  It's just not effective from a cost benefit perspective except as a way to save coin and inventory space as a substitute for injury kits. 


My least favorite is shapeshifter.  This class is just so awful it boggles the mind how it managed to ship as is.  Shapeshifter takes a wonderful, powerful, adaptable class and lets them throw that all away to be a sub-par warrior.  You don't even get to keep your maintained spells up.  The whole class concept is flawed through and through.  Mage specializations
need to work in synergy with the base class concept, not replace it.  I think the best method of fixing shapeshifter would be to repurpose the animal shapes as short term buffs that don't totally remove the mage's spell casting ability.  Slap on a mana drain and a fatigue cost and make them instant cast abilities so they become something the mage chooses to utilize situationally.

 
Arcane Warriors are the class that everyone seems to agree is overpowered.  The problem here lies in the concept.  I think it was a mistake to create a magic user that competes with the warrior class as a tank.  That’s just inevitably going to cause conflict, because the class will either be sub par in that critical role or be a great tank who also has the option to be a great mage at will.  In practice the latter is closer to what has been achieved here.  I think the concept should be rethought.  AW would work better as a way to let mages sacrifice some spell power for the ability to do physical DPS and survive in close combat.  In other words, make them compete more with rogues than with warriors.  The whole “mage in full plate” concept is just something I thought Dragon Age was attempting to move away from.


* What are your favorite Mage talent trees? What are your least favorite?

 
I tend to build my mages for healing, damage, and crowd control.  The trees I tend to avoid are the ones related to buffing teammates and debuffing enemies because I simply feel that they aren’t useful enough to justify the extra micromanagement.  The most outstanding spell lines in terms of power and overall usefulness are the Primal>Cold line and the Spirit>Telekinesis line.  I have no interest at all in the entire Entropy Tree, even the well liked sleep/waking nightmare combo which in my experience never works half as well as it is claimed to.  The Hexes and Curse of Mortality are all extremely powerful debuffs, but they are single target spells that are typically resisted by the enemies that are threatening enough to need them.  I’d be fine with them being toned down if you could actually rely on them to work when needed. 

 
In the creation tree I pretty much only use the heal line.  Glyphs aren’t my thing but some people love them so that’s just a matter of taste.  The enhancement line doesn’t make enough of a difference in my experience to be worth the hassle.  Some people swear by haste but I’m not big on it given the mana drain on the mage and the fact that it really only affects
one character in my ideal group.  I think the first three spells in this line should be repurposed either as group buffs, or as maintained spells. 

Modifié par EvilIguana966, 14 février 2010 - 05:54 .

[BewareTheDrow]

I like the Mage's wide selection of spells. It lets you tailor your spell picks to how you want your particular mage to play. Spells like Virulent Corpse Explosion & the entire Telekinetic line make my day.

Balance-wise I'm happy with the mage. There are spells like the lightning spells that are perhaps underused but nothing glaring.

My favorite mage specialization is the arcane warrior by far. My only disappointment is that I can't take it from level 1 or I definitely would. Shapeshifter is my least favorite, can't seem to find a good use for it.

My favorite mage talent trees are Spirit - Virulent Corpse Explosion and Entropy - Miasma. The combination of the two on my arcane warrior are my most used spells by far, and clear rooms for me on their own. 

My least favorite mage talent tree would be most of the debuff spells in Entropy, likely because I'm an arcane warrior and don't really want to spend the time to debuff a target.

[Majere613]

Firstly a confession- I've only read the first page of the topic. I'm a tad pressed for time and have things to say, so if they've been said, sorry.



Firstly, of course mages are OP. But they're OP in a couple of ways that might not have been fully discussed yet.

The biggest single balance problem with mages IMHO is the way they scale with the difficulty level. Since on Normal difficulty, which I'm assuming people are playing on, friendly fire does 1/2 damage, the Mage can be careless with AOE and get away with it. As you ramp up the difficulty this effect drops off so those playing on the higher settings will tend to find their mages more 'balanced'.

Force Multipliers: The next big problem is that a mage is a force-multiplier character. More than any other class, mages can shut down large numbers of enemies at once (Cone of Cold, Blizzard) or destroy them very, very fast. Also, they keep their own party in the fight much longer with healing- and it's easily possible to build a mage that can do both at once. That can make a mage rapidly feel like a compulsory character.



Crowd Control: The mage's ability to totally shut down a single target is over the top, and only 'compensated for' by giving some enemies equally over the top resistances. Curse of Mortality and Misdirection Hex are both particularly broken in concept- CoM effectively kills any tank bar a templar and MH makes playing a melee character very frustrating. By contrast, even a stun-heavy DW rogue will struggle to stop a mage getting spells off. Lyrium pots largely counter Magebane (and I've rarely even seen an NPC mage go OOM anyway) and most NPC mages have too many HP to kill from stunlock. Thank the Maker for Dog



I feel that the friendly-fire reduction should be removed- not to weaken mages, but to encourage the use of spells like Stinging Swarm and Chain Lightning that allow mages to attack multiple targets without hurting allies. (I have found, by the way, that Walking Bomb/Stinging Swarm is a most amusing combo for supporting melee fighters, but it all those exploding corpses should be hurting my tank more)

Specialisation-wise; Arcane Warrior is probably my 'favourite' though for true utility Spirit Healer is the hands-down winner. If you think AW is imba, try taking a party with 3 of them into the Circle Tower and see what happens when you meet posessed Templars. Shapeshifting is interesting but badly designed, it should have far quicker if not instant changes at the very least. Additionally, either it needs to work better stat-wise (ie forms improve with spellpower) or there should be more forms/abilities to learn so a physical-build shapeshifter doesn't need to waste time on pointless spells. Blood Mage is a weird beast. RP-wise, neither Wynne nor Morrigan should go anywhere near it- indeed, given Wynne's 'special circumstances' she possibly couldn't even use it. That only leaves the PC to go BM. A conscriptable Jowan might have been an interesting idea.



DAO makes mages very interesting to play, I feel they need tweaking more than redesigning in the most part. Those underestimating Summoning should try grease-flamestorm on charging enemies or the swarm/bomb combo. The aesthetics of the class need some serious work, as does the AI of enemy casters.



A final thought- it's well worth checking out the Warden's Arena mod to see exactly how mad mages can be at the moment!

[Ralnith]

What I like about mages:
First: they are mages! I always play caster-characters in absolutely any game that has them, and they are my favorite in DA:O as well. I love how Bioware (about damn time!!) didn't cripple mages with the painfully stupid and nonsensial DnD magic rules and went with the mana system and I especially like that it is explained in the lore. The ability to pick whatever spells you want also makes mages the most interesting and versatile characters to play, unlike the one-trick warriors. The spell combinations are a great idea and we definetely need more of them.

What I dislike about mages:
The lack of equipment, obviously. Warriors seem to get new swords and massive armors with each DLC, but rogues and mages are left with the same old items which all look the same as well. I like the Circle robes, but the rest looks terrible on female chars (I don't want to see Wynne in leggings and mini-skirt!) and Reapers robe is the only viable choice in the endgame. Same with staffs, which also deal way too little damage. Not to mention the "cowls"...
Also, there should be consequences if you become a blood mage. And,. though it is a general problem with all origins, we don't have enough options to express hatred towards the Chantry. Even dwarves sometimes have "By the Maker [...]!" as the only "wtf" dialogue option though most would probably say "By the Ancestors!" and, when playing a mage who hates the templars oppression of the circle, I don't feel like I have enough opportunities to make priests and templars cry.

Overpowered:
Mana Clash is just silly, as well as Death Hex+Death Cloud combo. Cone of Cold could survive with a shorter freeze duration as well, but it may be ok as it is. The abundance of lyrium potions is a problem however.

Underpowered:
Disorient and weakness: They never seem to be worth casting, just a waste of mana with no noticable effects.
Shapeshifting: So I am supposed to sacrifice all the strengths and versatility of a mage to turn into an animal that is weaker than my dog and can't use any potions or cast any spells?! And there is even a cast-time and a cooldown on that?

Specializations:
I think mages have the best specializations compared to warriors and rogues because they mostly lack filler-passives that just improve the previous talents.
Favorite: Blood mage and Spirit healer. They are both very useful, and though Revive is something I never use because I prefer not to die and cleansing aure isn't worth the point spent on it, Group heal alone makes the spec worth taking.
The worst is Shapeshifer (see above): good idea, but, sadly, useless. Give them the ability to drink potions and maybe some unique form-dependant spells for each tree you put points in (for example, the ability to surround yourself with flames that burn everyone around if you put some points in fire) or simply allow them to cast in animal form and it would be worth taking.
Arcane warriors are ok, but I don't really like them because the tree seems almost as filler-happy as berserker. 2 out of 4 talents are just improvements for combat magic, that's hardly creative. Besides, the weapon sheathing thing is annoying and I don't like that they don't get any actual attacks with a weapon, just the auto-attack. Replace the passives with weapon-based attacks and it would be much more fun to play. (Option: let the passives unlock weapon attacks for the equipped weapon that warriors already have. For example, Aura of Might unlocks Mighty Blow Fade Shroud unlocks Two handed Sweep or Pommel Strike). I never use Shimmering Shield because of the mana drain. The ability to equip armor is great, however, and almost must-have because of the terrible itemization.
I also wish there was a way to summon demons. Almost every other blood mage can do that, why not the PC? And Mouse would be a great companion:D

Favorite/Least favorite trees:
Favorite: Cold line. I use everything in it and love it. Fire is nice too as well as telecinesis, though I'd rather see something other then telecinetic weapons there.
Worst line: Haste and maybe the wisp and grease line. Nothing useful there.

[oldgass]

class Mage:
           Pretty good class allround abilities reflect fairly well
           Like the twin sub class ability ( 1 at 7, and another at 14)
           Hope there is developement along those lines
           You have the massive destruction down fairly well
           
   Dislikes:
                     The subtle spells not at least as far as I can see very effective
                      Lack of gear for mages all round 
                      Design of gear could stand improvement ( A burnt stick thats the best lol)

[Calzier]

Ok - I haven't read anything, but just started with a Mage (2nd run through, now to lvl 8)



Biggest issues:



1. Robe styling. Note playing a male mage - circle robes look fairly stylish (once you get used to them) but not a fan of tervinter-style robes. Need more variety in the powerful robes. Why not an appearance customiser &/or enhanceable robes - akin to enchanting weapons?



2. Hoods - hideous, hideous. Prefer not to wear them. Make them look like hoods and not odd bonnets!



3. Specialisations. Biggest problem here is that these aren't specialisations, but *diversifications*. Ideally, specialisations would be by school, and the schools would be be more unified in terms of themes, and probably less redundant (primal worst offender here).



Of the existing 'specialisations' - none seem great: blood mage is too easy to get, and has minimal impact on the story (this is supposed to be an RPG after all); shapeshifter is nice idea, but would be far better if it was more like (or augmented by) the fade shapes - where's my sneaky mouse etc? I love shapeshifting as a concept, and clearly all the code is there...; arcane warrior - needs to be more 'wizard with a sword' imo rather than 'wannabe-warrior'; spirit healer - not tried it (except a support NPC - which seems its ideal role.



4. Spell lists - seem a little oddly ordered; I'd re-jig a lot of these along with making the schools the specialisations (why should I have to take flame weapon before moving to fireball, for example?).



What did I like?



1. So far - origin storyline; well done, and gives a nice counterpoint to later events - better than the Dalish, which is the other origin I've tried; that is good in itself, but has little impact later in the game, whereas coming back to the 'infested' tower, knowing the NPCs from the origin story, made the mage origin a strong introduction. Good story telling here!



2. Being a mage/sorceror/wizard type. Great to play (although DAO, much like BG series, seems a little set up with the traditional approach of hero=fighter)



3. Spells themselves. Interesting variety. Not just the same-old same-old.



3b Winter's grasp & Crushing prison

[yasuraka.hakkyou]

Ralnith wrote...
we don't have enough options to express hatred towards the
Chantry...when playing a mage who hates the templars oppression of the
circle, I don't feel like I have enough opportunities to make priests
and templars cry...
I also wish there was a way to summon demons. Almost every other blood mage can do that, why not the PC?

both of these. My elven mage has done the research, she knows what the Chantry and the humans in general have done to her people, yet she doesn't get too many options to get back at them. demon summoning would be completely BA. that as a specialization maybe?



side note, sorta mage related: almost all of the demons look pretty cool. rage demons as small(er) fiery magma blobs, sloth demons as "hibernating bears" (usually), and desire demons as succubi all make sense, and look cool (revenants are also BA). when I realized that Uldred was a pride demon, however, I literally said WTF. an oversized, purple, slightly amorphous ugly blob evil faced thing that's 3 stories tall? the hell? it's kinda random when you're going up the demon food chain and you hit pride. I was thinking more of a beautiful man-analogue demon, maybe qunari height, not some wierd godzilla kinda thing.

[Kangaxx628]

Mage:



Like:The flexibility, at high levels to really rip stuff up.

Dislike:Head gear, lack of knock or open locks spell.



Overpowered - Probably shouldn't allow the hexes to stack



On a brief digression - 2 things have bothered me during recent playthroughs. The ability of orges to chain their ram attack, and the range of the root attack for wild sylvans. So as a thought in the next patch you could include a super nightmare mode, where the party does nothing but fight elite wild sylvan/ogre hybrids that also drain mana with their attacks and are immune to lightning. That way I won't have to read about how nightmare is too easy and all spells should be nerfed. Also please reduce the AoE of the shattershot spell, thank you.

[Destrier77]

Please dont "balance" the mages. Its not an online game and mages should be powerful when helped out by the fighters to protect them from the front.



In keeping with the lore of the world of fereldan mages are powerful and need to be kept in check, they shouldnt be "beaten by warriors or rogues of equal level"



In a straight fight mages should win the majority of the time vs equal level fighting foes unless the fighting foes use tactics. ie knocking them unconcious, dirty tactics and bombs like i use with my rogue!!



Good job with the mages.



I would say add some more spell trees or more spells to the current trees and sort out the armour when they wear it, it looks shocking, so does the hats

[draxynnus]

Why shouldn't Rogues and Warriors of a similar level be of similar power?



Both mythology and modern fantasy are full of examples of epic warriors and rogues that are every bit a match for the magic-users in their settings. Why should the warriors be relegated to the role of meatshields and the rogues to springing traps and locks when the mages do the heavy lifting when they could all be contributing equally? (Note that I say equally - the mages shouldn't be relegated to simply buffing the warriors unless they choose to train that way or it's advantageous to do so in a specific tactical situation.)



If it makes you feel better, you can think of it as the mage actually starting off at a higher level. This actually fits the lore - the mage has literally just passed the final exam for their apprenticeship, while most of the non-mage origins give the impression that the character already has some experience under their belt when the game begins (the City Elf just seems to be a natural at it due to hereditary), and yet they're all at the same level on reaching Ostagar. So the warriors and rogues that are of an equal level to a mage may be more experienced, but they're of equal power - or, to look at it another way, the mage needs less experience to be at a similar level of power to the warriors and rogues.



Other reasons why the mages are viewed as powerful and needing to be kept in check:



First, because they're different. It's hard to know if a given individual has the potential to become a high enough level warrior or rogue to be a threat to society until they do, and at that point they're already powerful enough that you should step carefully around them. Mages, however, are easy to separate and quarantine from the general populace.



Second, and probably more importantly, mages represent a potential danger beyond how powerful they can become by leveling - even a fairly weak mage can become a serious threat to those around them if they get possessed by a powerful demon. Warriors and rogues don't represent nearly so great a risk in that fashion.



So, to summarise: In my opinion, anyway, the game works better if members of all classes at a similar level can contribute equally. The reason mages get controlled and others don't is because they're easy to seperate from the population, because they can be a serious threat even at low level, and because any given mage is more likely to reach high levels than any given non-mage is likely to reach high levels as a Warrior or Rogue.

[Haplose]

In general I'm not in favour of "nerfing" mages. Well, some specialization, focus would be nice.



But most importantly, the Lyrium pots must go away!

Make them extremly rare and using them have dire consequences. Lyrium is supposed to be rare, according to the lore. Make it so....

[Destrier77]

lyrium is rare isnt it. I dont see that much about. It would be nice to have more to be honest!!



Where are you finding it all? I need some more.

[Morragh Khaln]

Like: It's my favourite class, the lore, the versatility, everything about it is just great. Most fun class: Blood mage.



Dislike: Shapeshifting. I love the concept. The execution is just poor. Your mage actually gets weaker by shapeshifting and the casting timer makes it all but useless, you're either dead or the fight is over by the time you changed forms (slight exageration, point remains that you can do a lot more usefull stuff as a mage than transforming). I only maxed it out on Morigan because I'm a sucker for concepts and lore.



underpowered: lightning



overpowered: Arcane Warrior maybe, It out tanks my tanks, while incapacitating whole groups and causing massive AoE death ... I love it though.

[Red Frostraven]

One balance suggestion would be to make each and every spell school require different attributes.

Primal: Strength requirements
Creation: Cunning requirements
Spirit: Dexterity requirements
Entropy: Constitution requirements
Arcane: Magic Requirements

Mages can specialize in one school of magic, or go for multiple classes at the sacrifice of a lower "magic" attribute.

Having a magic attribute requirement for a class that deals more damage and gains more life and mana from pots through the magic attribute... it's kind of like forcing people to do something they intend to do. Giving them a helping push in the right direction more than constraining them.
For my rogue, the higher dexterity requirements from some talents were hard to come to terms with, and I've opted to exclude som talents to get more strength and constitution instead of getting 36 dexterity, for now.

My mage on the other hand... never had the problem, except when I was unexperienced and put two points in strength in order to be able to swordfight efficiently later on, with light armor, and actually wield a sword from early on for looks...

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 18 février 2010 - 04:20 .

[Varenus Luckmann]

Make shapeshifting instant and make the "evolved" forms "healthy", instead of grossly corrupted versions of their previous incarnation. A "healthy" Bereskarn, and a "healthy" blight wolf.

Also, Spell Wisp is nice. It's alright for a first-tier spell. Compare that to the end-tier talent in the Arcane line. It's hilariously/depressingly bad.

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 18 février 2010 - 05:38 .