36 réponses à ce sujet

[JensenBakura]

 So it seems the climactic fork in the road for ME2 is the fate of the collector base.  I thought it might be having to choose between Cerberus and the Alliance, but I only got even a hint of quitting Cerberus when I had destroyed the Base AND romanced Miranda AND had her in my final party.   The first time I did the first two but kept her behind to lead the fire team and although TIM was pissed I blew up the base there was no "I'm leaving!" dialogue.  

So I'd guess that the "I quit" choice will be handled the same way that the Udina/Anderson choice was (i.e., you decide via dialogue at the start of ME 3) and the main game-changer for ME 3 will be the fate of the base.

I can't imagine what the difference between the two will be though.

Killing/Saving the Council is a really tough call - I was shocked how many aliens hated me for sacrificing the council, especially when both Liara and Garrus understood my reasons for doing it (I had both with me at the end of one playthrough - Garrus says to sacrifice the the council without hesitation, Liara is hesitant but understands).

If you save the council, humanity is loved and respected - but if you don't, all you hear in ME2 is that the races don't trust humanity and are building up their fleets beyond pre-ME1 levels.

I wonder which is better for fighting the reapers...a united galaxy that has been ignoring the coming threat, or a suspicious/wary galaxy that has been actively remilitarizing?

[TobiasRieper]

United will be better imo, if they start warring now, they'll be weakened when the Reapers arrive. Same reason why I advocated peace to the Quarians and hope they and the Geth can find that peace.



I expected that the entire galactic community would hate your race for not saving the council though. They were already very weary of the 'power hungry' humans and it would definitely not improve if they knew that an alliance military fleet was standing idly by when the council and the main war ship of the citadel army was being attacked.

[fogofeternity]

Ah well, at least destroying/saving the base was actually a decision I had to stop and think about, rather than "hell no, we're busy with Sovereign, why on earth would we risk the entire galaxy to save some aristocrats?" of ME1!

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Whether you choose Paragon or Renegade, we know it is a game so we know that either way the Reapers are defeated.



Knowing that, why would anyone choose the Renegade path is beyond me. The Renegade path leads to human supramacism, the argument for siding with Cerebrus often is "They are our best hope for defeating the Reapers!" but it is also obvious just by the nature of a story that the Reapers are also defeatable by doing the right thing.

[fogofeternity]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Whether you choose Paragon or Renegade, we know it is a game so we know that either way the Reapers are defeated.

Knowing that, why would anyone choose the Renegade path is beyond me. The Renegade path leads to human supramacism, the argument for siding with Cerebrus often is "They are our best hope for defeating the Reapers!" but it is also obvious just by the nature of a story that the Reapers are also defeatable by doing the right thing.

Yeah, but if you're pursuing it as a roleplaying game then you have to at least to some extent get into the mindset of Shepard. Who doesn't know it's a game and clearly doesn't know that the Reapers will be defeated. So then it's a case of roleplaying the character of that particular version of Shepard.

[Dave the Seagull]

I'm still pissed that I accidently imported the save where I blow up the council instead of my main one, and my ME2 playthrough has constantly reminded of my ****up.

[fogofeternity]

Dave the Seagull wrote...

I'm still pissed that I accidently imported the save where I blow up the council instead of my main one, and my ME2 playthrough has constantly reminded of my sensible decision.

...corrected.

Modifié par fogofeternity, 06 février 2010 - 01:05 .

[Ariq007]

JensenBakura wrote...
I wonder which is better for fighting the reapers...a united galaxy that has been ignoring the coming threat, or a suspicious/wary galaxy that has been actively remilitarizing?

a good question.

On a side note, I felt that the endgame choice for ME2 was a little weaker this time around, only b/c it didnt make as much sense.   I mean, why can i only choose between handing the base to Cerberus or destroying it completely?  Why can't i save it and hand it over to the Alliance?  Or the Council?  It seems there are more options available than the ones they give you.  As far as I know, there is nothing barring Shephard from opting for one of these mentioned alternatives, so really there should be at least 4 possibilities for the fate of the Collector base.

Despite that, i think i did like this choice better overall.  It really made me stop and think, weighing positives and negatives, conflicting feelings, etc.  It was a much tougher choice for me to make.

[Eumerin]

If you save the council, humanity is loved and respected - but if you don't, all you hear in ME2 is that the races don't trust humanity and are building up their fleets beyond pre-ME1 levels.

Not really.  There's some official respect from the various races (for instances, the Turian government decides to pay the interest on their reparation payments to the citizens of Shanxi), but you get the definite impression throughout the game that cultural attitudes as a whole haven't really shifted.  The prime example of this is the Turian politician in Thane's loyalty quest who is literally running on an anti-human platform.

I thought it might be having to choose between Cerberus and the Alliance, but I only got even a hint of quitting Cerberus when I had destroyed the Base AND romanced Miranda AND had her in my final party.   The first time I did the first two but kept her behind to lead the fire team and although TIM was pissed I blew up the base there was no "I'm leaving!" dialogue.

If you actually switched over to the Alliance then Bioware would have to go in and scrub all of the Cerberus logos that appear all over the place.

[Reign762]

My question is how influential, if at all, will be the side mission quest where you can upload a cypher to the Alliance or Cerberus be in ME 3?

Modifié par Reign762, 06 février 2010 - 01:10 .

[fogofeternity]

I think the resentment of the humans is far more reasonable when you look at it in the context of events after ME1. It's not so much that Shepard chose to focus on Sovereign instead of saving the Council (hell, how many people actually *like* their political leaders?). More a case that the resentment and dislike comes because humanity as a whole took the opportunity of the post ME1 chaos to seize a great deal of political power and effectively "jump the queue" to Council membership.

[Sturm Jaeger]

I save the Council, because I figure the Destiny's bigass main gun would be a huge help against Sovereign.

[OrionUnas]

JensenBakura wrote...

 So it seems the climactic fork in the road for ME2 is the fate of the collector base.  I thought it might be having to choose between Cerberus and the Alliance, but I only got even a hint of quitting Cerberus when I had destroyed the Base AND romanced Miranda AND had her in my final party.   The first time I did the first two but kept her behind to lead the fire team and although TIM was pissed I blew up the base there was no "I'm leaving!" dialogue.  

So I'd guess that the "I quit" choice will be handled the same way that the Udina/Anderson choice was (i.e., you decide via dialogue at the start of ME 3) and the main game-changer for ME 3 will be the fate of the base.

I can't imagine what the difference between the two will be though.

Killing/Saving the Council is a really tough call - I was shocked how many aliens hated me for sacrificing the council, especially when both Liara and Garrus understood my reasons for doing it (I had both with me at the end of one playthrough - Garrus says to sacrifice the the council without hesitation, Liara is hesitant but understands).

If you save the council, humanity is loved and respected - but if you don't, all you hear in ME2 is that the races don't trust humanity and are building up their fleets beyond pre-ME1 levels.

I wonder which is better for fighting the reapers...a united galaxy that has been ignoring the coming threat, or a suspicious/wary galaxy that has been actively remilitarizing?

I typed up this awesome reply to the quote, but my tablet decided to right click and when I was hitting backspace to delete some letters... it backed the page up for me.  How conveinient.  So the quick reply...

You do tell him you quit when you select the "Shut up!" option, and even Miranda says she quits.  "Consider this my resignation"... or maybe she said "I quit".. i don't remember... but it was awesome.  Check out some of the other diologue choices

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

fogofeternity wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Whether you choose Paragon or Renegade, we know it is a game so we know that either way the Reapers are defeated.

Knowing that, why would anyone choose the Renegade path is beyond me. The Renegade path leads to human supramacism, the argument for siding with Cerebrus often is "They are our best hope for defeating the Reapers!" but it is also obvious just by the nature of a story that the Reapers are also defeatable by doing the right thing.

Yeah, but if you're pursuing it as a roleplaying game then you have to at least to some extent get into the mindset of Shepard. Who doesn't know it's a game and clearly doesn't know that the Reapers will be defeated. So then it's a case of roleplaying the character of that particular version of Shepard.

Okay


Well still, I chose to save the Council in the initial game because to me it became quite obvious what the repercussions would be if I let the Alliance take charge, human history has proven time and time again we're not a very tolerant species overall. 

Also the dialogue at the time suggested that Sovreign could be defeated either way, it is just that one option has a lot of humans die while the other doesn't. But we were talking about military people, who enlisted their lives to the Alliance long ago, and the point of soldiers is to die for politicians (regardless how you feel about that).

Making decisions to solve immediate problems without thinking about the long term consequences is a foolish decision for Shepard to make.

So he destroyed the Collector base.. could we use the technology? Of course, but at the same time we managed to defeat one Reaper with our level of technology and of course the Reaper's biggest fears have always been a united Galaxy fighting against them. 

In other words, even the Reapers knew we could defeat them on our own, without their technology. I knew the Collector Base was unnecessary, I will just have to take the harder but more righteous road of uniting everyone and getting the Council off their asses.

[fogofeternity]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

Also the dialogue at the time suggested that Sovreign could be defeated either way, it is just that one option has a lot of humans die while the other doesn't. But we were talking about military people, who enlisted their lives to the Alliance long ago, and the point of soldiers is to die for politicians (regardless how you feel about that).

Easy for different people to reach different conclusions though. My interpretation has always been that the request comes through when the battle with Sovereign is on a knife edge. At which point diverting resources to save the Council (who, let's face it, are replaceable) is an unacceptable choice, given that losing to Sovereign means the genocide of all intelligent races. Under those circumstances, there's no justification at all for saving the Council.

Whereas if you interpret it as a straight choice between "lose more human soldiers" or "save the Council", but Sovereign's going to be defeated either way, then you're absolutely right. Judging from the dialogue and overall reaction in ME2, I also think your interpretation seems to be more along the lines of Bioware's thinking.

[thethain]

I think a lot of people are missing the point that. Your character doesn't know he will win.



I chose to ignore the council, not because I hate them, but because realistically, the objective is to kill Sovereign. And saving the council ship would very likely have jeopardized the objective.



Secondary is the fact that the council had proven time and time again that no matter what I did they would not believe me. So how could a new council be worse (BTW if you do save them, they yet AGAIN do not believe you)

[phimseto]

JensenBakura wrote...

I wonder which is better for fighting the reapers...a united galaxy that has been ignoring the coming threat, or a suspicious/wary galaxy that has been actively remilitarizing?

LOL...I was moping about that all game, but never really thought about it in those terms.  It would be a silver lining if this new arms race/remilitarization ended up making us more prepared for the reaper invasion.  Of course, shame on the Asari for taking such a "I'm taking my toys and going home" to galactic affairs in the wake of Sovereign's attack. 

My big thing about ME2 is that it seems, on face value, that all the paragon choices in ME2 could be good things in ME3.  It certainly seemed that way about all the big ME1 choices factoring in ME2.  I really, really, really need to see at least one of those big paragon choices (heretic geth, genophage cure, blowing up the collector base, etc.) blow up in the player's face in ME3.  If some of those choices don't turn out to have dire consequences, then Bioware is really undercutting the impact of their morality system.  

[Eumerin]

I'd argue otherwise.  At the point in time when the Alliance can save the Destiny Ascension, Sovereign has effectively removed itself from the battlefield by closing the Citadel's petals with itself inside.  The question isn't "Can the Alliance fleet defeat Sovereign?"  It's "Can Shepard open the petals so that the Alliance fleet can hurt Sovereign."  Given that, there was never any doubt in my mind that the Alliance had the firepower to get the job done.  The only question was how long the Alliance fleet would be exposed to Geth fire first.  If the Alliance jumped in early then they'd be forced to hang around and fight against the Geth ships.  If the Alliance jumped in later then they'd get a straight shot at Sovereign, and not have to sit around fighting Geth ships while waiting for Shepard to open the petals (and some of those Geth ships would have been destroyed by the remnants of the Citadel defense fleet).

Given that, I took it as a very clear-cut "Human ships and lives in exchange for the survival of the Council leadership" choice.

[HakkyounoTenshi]

I think it does depend on conclusions. I personally am a soft hearted person, (when playing ME2, the suffering on Omega made me feel sick), and as a result whenever I play a RPG I tend to play Light Side/Paragon/Open Palm. So of course I chose to save the council.



However while I was playing the game I didn't know about ME2 or what the plot would be. But my thought was this: We are going to war against an unknown alien species bent on nothing less than the destruction of (almost) all life in the Galaxy. The last thing we need is the chaos that rebuilding the government, as well as preparing for war. Letting the council die would have left a void that would have had to have been filled before any further action could be taken. While the best military minded action is probably saving firepower for Sovereign, politically the best choice is either saving the council or letting them die depending on your views.

[Balek-Vriege]

The Paragon option suggests that destroying the base will lead Spedard to seek out cooperation and galatic peace among species to take on the Reaper threat (just like Paragon options in ME1 did).



The Renegade option of keeping the base reinforces the renegade human dominance factor that humanity can do it alone (just like Renegade options in ME2 did) and impose their will on other alien species.



Expect in ME3 to build bridges through the Alliance/Spectres as a Paragon kind of like the main characters in Babylon 5. If you destroy the base expect to be Cerberus aligned acting more like Earth Force (under the evil President who would be the Illusive Man in this case) in Babylon 5 trying to to gain galactic superiority through the technology of ancient threats at great cost ethically.



My suggestion:



Pure Renegade characters should definately keep the station.

Pure Paragon characters should definately destroy the station.

Somewhere in between should think about whether or not they trust the Illusive Man to possibly become the most powerful entity in the galaxy and then make a decision.



The decision will most likely effect who holds galatic balance and HOW you fight the reapers. I like the paragon option because the galaxy will have to find a way to work together to destroy the Reapers rather than going a Batarian route of imposing your will by stealing/abusing technology etc.

[Himmelstor]

JensenBakura wrote...

 So it seems the climactic fork in the road for ME2 is the fate of the collector base.  I thought it might be having to choose between Cerberus and the Alliance, but I only got even a hint of quitting Cerberus when I had destroyed the Base AND romanced Miranda AND had her in my final party.   The first time I did the first two but kept her behind to lead the fire team and although TIM was pissed I blew up the base there was no "I'm leaving!" dialogue.  

So I'd guess that the "I quit" choice will be handled the same way that the Udina/Anderson choice was (i.e., you decide via dialogue at the start of ME 3) and the main game-changer for ME 3 will be the fate of the base.

I can't imagine what the difference between the two will be though.

Killing/Saving the Council is a really tough call - I was shocked how many aliens hated me for sacrificing the council, especially when both Liara and Garrus understood my reasons for doing it (I had both with me at the end of one playthrough - Garrus says to sacrifice the the council without hesitation, Liara is hesitant but understands).

If you save the council, humanity is loved and respected - but if you don't, all you hear in ME2 is that the races don't trust humanity and are building up their fleets beyond pre-ME1 levels.

I wonder which is better for fighting the reapers...a united galaxy that has been ignoring the coming threat, or a suspicious/wary galaxy that has been actively remilitarizing?

Anti-humanity sentiment crops up regardless. Wary galaxy preferrable. Even if not for Reapers, extra guns can be turned  against real threat. So long as galaxy not actively tear itself apart.

[trigger2kill1]

Good, thought provoking, and insightful answers to a horrible question. Though I did not once see the one that I came up with.

ME1 I chose to let the council fend for themselves. I figured that the Destiny decension had a bit more tail than they ended up with. I figured that it was my job to see that the mission succeeded, that I would end up saving more lives both military and civilian by hammering Sovereign home. ME2 I gathered that the best decision would be to destroy the collecters and there tech nomatter what the cost was to myself or the crew in general. When all was said and done Timmy lambasted me about how I screwed up his/our chances at (insert bullship reason here) then I told Timmy that he worked for me and that we would be doing things my way from now on. Then the crew lined up to pat me on my virtual back for choosing the correct road.

[Vicious]

I saved the council, because the whole point of Sovereign's assault on the Reapers was to eliminate the leadership of the galaxy, at least that's what the Prothean on Ilos told me was what REALLY screwed them over - all their leaders were dead before anyone knew WTF was going on. I figured if I could preserve that leadership then he failed, even if we lost that particular battle -

Because even if Sovereign's destroyed, Saren can still activate the damn Mass Relay. To me, Sovereign was actually secondary because there was no way he could go in to the facility himself and use that tiny little console. A Geth could have done it, but they'd have to get past Shepard first.

And yes, I thought of all that stuff in my first playthrough.

So I saved the council, even though I really really disliked them. Turned out for the best.

I knew TIM was full of crap but I made nice with him until the end, where I blew up the base, because once again, he was full of crap.

He DID get really pissed off when my Shepard told him, "We're doing things MY way from now on, you can stand with me or move the hell aside." which is the renegade response to TIM's anger when you blow up the base.

Modifié par Vicious, 06 février 2010 - 04:25 .

[trigger2kill1]

Has anyone saved both the council and the base?

[gutty47]

I saved the council only because they are on the Destiny Ascension which has the largest mass accelerator cannon. I was disappointed when it turned out to not be needed.