279 réponses à ce sujet

[Average Gatsby]

I found the Vanguard to be fun on normal, but impossible to play as intended on the Insanity and Hardcore difficulties. Now it wasn't impossible to play, it just isn't possible as the class was designed.

Issues:
1. Vanguards are supposed to get in peoples faces, knock people down, be an all-around close range brute. In HC and Insanity, you die far too quickly to every make effective use of your core power, Charge.
2. Pull and shockwave: Very difficult to use effectively because a) the are two sides of the same imobilizing coin, and most of the time when the enemy has finally gotten down to health the utility of actually using one of these abilites is very low, unless knocking someone off a high area.
3. Over-reliance on the Heavy Pistol and SMG: This is where i make my real case for the non-functionality of the Vangard. You have to use the smg and hp so often that it makes the shotgun at most a cosmetic addition. Functionally, the smg and the hp have far more untility than that shotgun and aquire ammo easier.
4. The Sentinel is actually better at doing the vangards job than the vangard is: The sentinel has a combo of a super barrier plus an AOE knockdown (Tech Armor). Since Barrier is almost a requirement for the vangard, it takes about 20 skill points to add that functionality of charge aoe+full barrier for what takes 10 skill points (power armor) for the sentinel.
5. The vanguard has no real offensive power damage abilities, and yet it has no ranged weapons to compensate.

Solution: The vanguard needs another offensive ability instead of 3 CC abilities, the shotguns need to get a lot better, or the class skill Charge needs to have a shield boost instead of a shield repair + aoe knockdown from the start in order for the class to be functional in HC and insanity mode.

What do you all think? Agree/Disagree?

EDIT:

I've changed my mind on the original point that they aren't functional. There are 2 particularly good vids by sinosleep which you should watch if your having trouble with the class, which I will post below. Be sure to read the comments as well to see how we talk it out as well.

Some of my criticism still stand, because I think the class could go smoother. Especially because Vanguard really suffers before lvl 4 charge, and the utility of the other biotic powers are very situational. I still believe it could be better on HC/Insanity, but now I agree that it is, in fact, functional. I also don't think that my post will be the last on the merits of the Vanguard, so it may be good to have this as a resource.

Vid 1 - Grunt Recruitment

Vid 2 - Fighting Collectors 

Modifié par Average Gatsby, 09 février 2010 - 08:14 .

[matt654321]

Charge does increase your max shields for a bit as well as refilling them, but I agree that the vanguard needs more. A global fix to biotics would help him a lot. I think lowering charge's recharge time or giving it its own cooldown would be helpful, as you could toss out a shockwave or something to deal with nearby enemies (it staggers them slightly even with defense - hopefully buying you enough time to find cover).



Charge can be used non-suicidally, but the problem is doing so in this way offers little benefit and is situationally useful at best. Meanwhile, most of the other classes have unique skills that are useful most of the time or are very useful in specific situations.

[Mal_Luck]

I tend to refuse to play it on higher difficulties, it's just not fun anymore. I'll stick with Normal/Vet for my Vanguard

[Effay]

I agree 100% with the OP. I've just started my insanity runthrough and I almost NEVER use the shotgun. I just pepper away with my smg and heavy pistol the whole time. Charge only gets used towards the end of the battle, when you use it to knock down the last couple guys.

[Looy]

I agree, I only played vanguard on veteran, but I can see why it would suck on HC or Insanity. Imo they need to make charge less suicidal by either giving you 1/2 seconds invulnerability after use or just allow you to charge to locations (I.E Cover) as well as into enemies. They also need to make shotguns RAPE at close range, currently its more effective to use any other weapon at close range.

[Hawaiian_Spawn]

Beat normal with no big problems
Vanguard is just way too hard on insane. People say its fun to a have a challenge but really you have no weapons to deal with distance(i chose Assault rifle for the collector pile because i knew this was gonna be a factor) still have immense trouble dropping anything even with specialized ammo and biotics.
Pull and Shockwave are useless even on Vorcha unless all of them have no armor.(their scream buff)
Here is a solution how about we just put in the option to chose your style again when you import mass effect 2 save. Solves the problem in its self. Because i kinda anticipated it.
Vanguard insane feels more like playing "I wanna be that guy"

Modifié par Hawaiian_Spawn, 06 février 2010 - 02:55 .

[State_Of_Danile]

agree agree agree agree.
I LOVE the concept of the vanguard. has the most potential IMO. My favorite class. it's just needs polishing.
I've been fretting over teh fact that i chose the AR ability over the krogan shotgun when i was on the collector ship but i now realise that the AR makes me MUCH, MUCH more versatile. It's like my second most used gun, if not the most used (my  second being the pistol)
anyone htink they will make a dlc patch for this kind of thing?

[Jared_704]

I dunno. I watched my little brother own everything he came across with his vanguard on hardcore and he utilized charge offensively regularly. I haven't seen him do insanity yet though.

[Kwonnern]

Vanguard on Insanity
www.youtube.com/watch

[Homebound]

Kwonnern wrote...

Vanguard on Insanity
www.youtube.com/watch

I guess you need to be more defensive as Vanguard in Insanity.  The Vanguard player was a lot more patient than most people I've seen playing Vanguard.  Who just charge in recklessly.

[A Guy Named Raf]

I completely agree with the OP as well. Vanguard is so much fun to play when it works. It really only works up to veteran (as everyone else has been saying). Charge needs some kind of invulnerability, be able to slow down time earlier (by default) or a weapon damage bonus for 2-3 seconds right after using it. If charge, Vanguard health/shields, or shotgun damage was buffed, it would be so much better. I think that Bioware too the whole "High Risk/High Reward" thing to an extreme when it came to the Vanguard. Seriously, the Soldier has more health at level 8 than a level 30 Vanguard.

[vietnamsquirrel]

Uhh, I don't know about you but I thought vanguard on hardcore was pretty easy. Anyways vanguard on insanity is pretty impossible, if not time consuming.

[DaPinkMenace]

I was infuriated at how badly my vanguard got needed. The biotics were usesless and the shotgun was so weak tht by the time I had charged an shot the guy, I could have just safely downed him with the hp. I swapped classes to the infiltrator for my insanity playthrough, 2 shotting scions and 1 shotting harbingers makes the vanguard look like a sissy.

[Hawaiian_Spawn]

Kwonnern wrote...

Vanguard on Insanity
www.youtube.com/watch

Where in this vid did he ever use charge. or shock wave, or pull *stands corrected*

He used barrier, reave.
And used a sniper rifle(why not just be a soldier at that rate)
I run out of ammo before i get to the stairs when i first meet vorcha

Well im completly stuck on modins mission on insane(And yes ive been patient, enough to the point where i have already wasted 2 hours on one fight. I always advance up to the stairs then magically die. I do exactly the same thing minus the reave because i dont have smara or mordin . and no i didnt put reave as my advanced skill

Modifié par Hawaiian_Spawn, 06 février 2010 - 05:44 .

[skyferret]

He used charge a few times. Smartly.

[Odd Hermit]

skyferret wrote...

He used charge a few times. Smartly.

To finish off an enemy that was basically dead already.

[sinosleep]

I think vanguards play just fine and dandy on insanity. Here's some gameplay footage of me







I charge all the time, use the shotgun almost exclusively, melee often, and rarely die, even if I do see the ol red veins more often than some other classes might.

[vo1canic]

I just finished vanguards on hardcore. I didn't think it's that bad.



Just make sure you know what you are up against when using charge and plan ahead for an escape route if things go bad.

[sgrzadka]

IT depends entirely on who is playing. I have no issues playing as a vanguard on any difficulty. Y ou just need to build it to how you play, and if you aren't liking it, why bash it? go play another class.

[MGIII]

sinosleep wrote...

I think vanguards play just fine and dandy on insanity. Here's some gameplay footage of me



I charge all the time, use the shotgun almost exclusively, melee often, and rarely die, even if I do see the ol red veins more often than some other classes might.

Kind of similar to how I play. I think I shall coin the term "Rushdown Vanguard" for this style of play. It's quite literally the most distinct style of gameplay in the game, 'cause no other class (except maybe the Soldier) can get into opponents' face like that.

[sgrzadka]

youtube will not load for me. i am really interested in seeing this videos

[MGIII]

sgrzadka wrote...

youtube will not load for me. i am really interested in seeing this videos

He basically Charge's everything.

[Average Gatsby]

Kwonnern wrote...

Vanguard on Insanity
www.youtube.com/watch

And to all other's who have said: "You can play the Vanguard just fine" or something of that nature:

I agree with you. Any class can beat any difficulty. That's not what I'm trying to say here.
My point is that in order to suceed as a Vanguard at the HC and Insanity difficulties, you cannot play the way the Vangard was designed to be played. It is designed to get in peoples faces, knock enemies down, and use biotics to just plow through combat.

If you don't agree, I submit to you Bioware's take on how a vangard is supposed to play:
Vanguard commentary by the Lead Mass Effect 2 game designer

You cannot play effectively in this manner on the difficulties of HC and Insanity. In the video submitted in response, they guy is using the heavy pistol, a sniper, and barrier. Thats pretty much a sentinel with a sniper build.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to criticize anyones method of playing. I'm trying to point out that the way HC and Insanity are set up do not make the Vanguard playable as was originally intended.

[sinosleep]

Average Gatsby, watch MY video. I charge CONSTANTLY, use the shotgun almost exclusively, and melee all the time as well. Yes, all while on insanity. I agree with you that the video you quoted isn't a particularly good example of vanguard play as advertised perse, I think mine is though.

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 février 2010 - 07:34 .

[Average Gatsby]

sinosleep wrote...

I think vanguards play just fine and dandy on insanity. Here's some gameplay footage of me



I charge all the time, use the shotgun almost exclusively, melee often, and rarely die, even if I do see the ol red veins more often than some other classes might.

So I watched this video a few times, and at where you are at in the game, thats a very effective strategy. I'm not gonna make any stupid comments, but just a couple things. I'm not trying to start a war or anything like that but I just feel that the vid needs some context.

    At this point in the game, you are lvl 8, with maxed out charge. That means you basically have one move that does significantly more damage and has more effect, proportionally, than any other move at this point. The reason why you can 2 shot anyone at this point is because your fighting humanoids, who are weak to shotguns, and because your so low level that at point blank, you can always two shot with the shotgun on humanoids. At end game, with that particular shotgun, you won't be able to two shot anymore. And your charge, will never get any stronger. It'll stay at that same, so that 1000 newtons you hit right now at lvl 8 stays the same when you hit 30. I know you get upgrades, but it won't proportion out. Endgame, that charge just won't have the power you're going to need
    Your also fighting all humanoids with shields, and you have miranda with maxed out overload. She's 1 shotting those guys shields. Again, its because she's maxed out at lvl 8. Her overload won't proportionally be that strong when you get a bit further in the game.
    I'd love to be able to play the Vanguard like this the whole game, but the fact is that charge, overload, and the shotgun are really going to start to show their weaknesses in a few levels. I'll also note that because my shepards are imported, I don't think I could even get to that mission any lower than 10.