279 réponses à ce sujet

[jaff00]

kznlol wrote...

This thread really exists?

I am, frankly, amazed. I knew Charge would be overpowered when I saw it in the class reveal video. Christina Norman said the class "requires and rewards skill more than any other class", and I very nearly died because I couldn't stop laughing.

Sinosleep put up a video of him doing a particular segment of Korlus in 1 minute and 46 seconds. Being the huge douche that I am, I thought it would be fun to beat that time with a vastly inferior class (namely, the Infiltrator)*. Cue 2 hours of playtime, and the best I could manage was 1 minute 48 seconds - but I can't even repeat that performance anymore. The best recorded time I could manage is 1:59, because Vanguards are that overpowered.

*Inferior in terms of ease of play, and especially inferior with regards to trying a speedrun.

Charge is a tremendously good ability - better than any other in the game. Tech Shields approaches it in terms of addition to survivability, but has zero offensive use. Charge is, essentially, an instant shield recharge every cooldown, a time slowdown every cooldown, and a crowd control on par with shockwave every cooldown - AND, it deals instantly with the one weakness shotguns have - range.

Quite honestly, Vanguards are easier to play, and better, than any class in the game. Sentinels are easier to complete Insanity with, if you have the patience of a rock, but if you don't, Vanguards are a better option at every difficulty, especially the higher ones.

Here's the video: http://www.wegame.co...-speedrun-lolz/

Youtube: 

Now, some notes:

1. Unedited video is available if, for some reason, people want it or think I cheated in order to lose.

2. I would not be surprised if this time is a good 20 seconds off a 'perfect' playthrough of this segment from an Infiltrator. There is a hard cap on how fast any given segment of this game can be done on Insanity, because of the ability cooldown, but I'm not remotely close to it. Insanity pisses me off enough as it is, without spending 13 hours perfecting a playthrough just to show off.

2.5 The fact is, a perfect playthrough would be 90% luck, 5% skill, and 5% ridiculous planning/theorycraft. Thats not how it should be, in any game. To get 1:46 as a Vanguard is easy. To get it as an Infiltrator breaks souls.

3. Mouse Sensitivity in this game is awful. I've edited the .ini setting down to 0.3 in this playthrough, and its _still_ too high. The factor by which it is reduced going into zoom is way too high, so the sens ends up either being way too high normally, and ok zoomed, or ok normally, and way too low zoomed.

4. Cloak is pretty worthless, as far as abilities go. Its badly designed, placed on the wrong class, and much worse than any other ability because it holds the ability cooldown in place until the cloak fades. If you could bypass enemies in this game, and thus face less required combat with it, it would make sense, but since thats not really doable, it doesn't fit the class. The only time it's even worth using is in precisely a situation like this - a speedrun, in which case you'd save time by getting a different class out. Granted, ammos are even more worthless, so you end up with maxed cloak by default.

5. Difficulty scaling in this game is dumb. The only reason this was difficult for me was because I was rushing it, trying to beat a time. If I could do this the way Infiltrators are meant to be played (and I had the patience for it), I wouldn't die once in the entire game. But it wouldn't be fun, or challenging. It would just be tedious.

Commence thread derailment.

Say. Initially, when I started reading this post I was just about ready to dismiss it as some plain good ol' trolling until I clicked on the link; now I figure no troll in his right mind would go to the extent of frapsing **** so consequently I was like is this  guy furreal or what but Lord give me strength when, 'lo and behold, I bared witness to an insanity infiltrator using a GODDDAMN ASSAULT RIFLE.
I was like.. Do I laugh? Do I cry? Do I weep like a whipped ****? But in the end I just went with a facepalm.

[Kurupt87]

you think using an assault rifle gimps the sniper based class, are you mad?!

but yeah, the rest of us just politely ignored the raving loon.

[Murmillos]

There shouldn't be anything wrong with an Infiltrator using a Assault Rifle.

[Kurupt87]

wrong no, but its not playing it how it should be played. i mean, they didnt give infiltrator sniper scope slow mo for sh!ts and giggles did they?

but back to the VG, anyone else been doing NG+ with a 30 VG, i find that is stupidly hard to start with, your survivabilty without the upgrades is really low, shields and health often down way before charge is off cd even with non asking-for-it charges. hvy barrier works but even that goes down, and then you've either gotta try and stick in cover while you re-barrier or hope that you've killed enough that you can make it through with only the charge-barrier. is that the only way to do it at early stages or am i missing something?

[_Dannok1234]

I would think that NG+ at 30 is probably far more difficult for any class. I've only tried it with a Vanguard tho' and it was pretty dull. Charging was far less useful when you don't have the upgrades to give you an edge over your enemies.



Often wondered if those early complaints about Vanguards being so weak on insanity was from people having done it on normal, then going for the ng+ at level 30 thinking it would be easier then starting from 1-5.

[Kronner]

Dannok1234 wrote...

I would think that NG+ at 30 is probably far more difficult for any class. I've only tried it with a Vanguard tho' and it was pretty dull. Charging was far less useful when you don't have the upgrades to give you an edge over your enemies.

Often wondered if those early complaints about Vanguards being so weak on insanity was from people having done it on normal, then going for the ng+ at level 30 thinking it would be easier then starting from 1-5.

That is true only for the Freedoms Progress, as soon as you get to pick your weapons (Claymore or Scimitar are both better than Katana), Charge becomes the king once again!

[Kronner]

Kurupt87 wrote...

but back to the VG, anyone else been doing NG+ with a 30 VG, i find that is stupidly hard to start with, your survivabilty without the upgrades is really low, shields and health often down way before charge is off cd even with non asking-for-it charges. hvy barrier works but even that goes down, and then you've either gotta try and stick in cover while you re-barrier or hope that you've killed enough that you can make it through with only the charge-barrier. is that the only way to do it at early stages or am i missing something?

I am. I just got Garrus and am about to go to Horizon.
I bought one heavy skin wave +10%, one shotgun damage, found another shotgun damage in Jacks mission and researched the extra shotgun damage against armor/barrier/shields (not sure if its against all three). It is definitely harder than regular Insanity, but still fun and I expected to die a lot more than I do in fact.

[Seblun]

How's the new Shotgun treating you?

[Kurupt87]

yeah, i did a full insanity run NG+ with the VG before, and have just started one again (i love this class), but it does seem to me that freedoms progress is one of the hardest levels in the entire game. the only comparable levels where i died the same amount (between 7-20 times depending on which one of these) were the collector platform battle(you cant charge from one platform to another which srsly bones me), the protect the quarian from rampaging varren(that was balls hard) and trying to get a decent amount of crates from the 3 ymir mechs blowing em up(think i got 8 and was happy).

edit: didnt mean that, that was fine, i meant the planet at the start, meeting tali first time in ME2

Modifié par Kurupt87, 09 février 2010 - 11:26 .

[rumination888]

EleventhLokust wrote...

This isn't a conspiracy post or anything, and I thought sinosleep's videos were highly impressive and informative.
I noticed that on the Grunt recruitment mission video that there were fewer mercs than when I did it last night with a Sentinel on Insanity. Specifically, I had two additional mercs with rocket launchers on a walkway. Is the number of enemies a function of level, speed of play through, or some other factor?

I believe there are spawn triggers placed on the floor. The Vanguard charges over them in certain rooms, so they don't trigger. For example, against the Geth Armature boss, if you Charge the Geth Trooper in the middle and immediately Charge the Geth Armature, no further Geth will spawn in the room.

[_Dannok1234]

I think those two rocket people, only come if you go up on the bridge. If you cross below they don't show, or thats been my experince with it

[kznlol]

jaff00 wrote...

'lo and behold, I bared witness to an insanity infiltrator using a GODDDAMN ASSAULT RIFLE.

Beat my time, on Insanity NG+, without one.

Go on, I dare you. The widow is the only rifle that is remotely workable on that segment, and I'm fairly sure even if you get a kill with every shot you'll still end up slower.

The assault rifle is faster in that segment, on Insanity+. But nt, kid.

[amish_ninja]

If you were to say that the vanguard is a lower tier class for high difficulty runs, I might agree with you, but only to a point. They're definitely functional. As has probably already been said (not gonna read 11 pages), it's about knowing how and when to use charge. Even before you get Heavy Charge, vanguards are fine on insanity as long as you are aware of your surroundings. General rules of thumb:

- Never open a fight with a charge. Wait for an opening. Whittle down an opponent's shields/armor/barrier a bit before even considering it.
- Charge into a spot where you can regain cover immediately after finishing off the enemy you charged. Shotguns are your friend here.
- If you can't get to cover quickly enough to avoid something like a rocket blast/heavy fire, you can use charge to avoid the attack(s) temporarily. It's basically a get out of jail free card + shield boost that can give you a second wind.
- Charge to get out of a flank. Hit your flanker, then regain cover against your original target.
- Conversely, charge to set up a flank!

There are some fights that are incredibly rewarding to a vanguard as long as you keep zipping around the level with charge. Yes, I know this isn't their only power, but it's their most unique one and gives you a break from the constant hide behind cover and shoot combat that every other class basically forces you into. You'll still have to play defensive some of the time, but every once in a while you'll get rewarded for being aggressive in ways that no other class can be.

[amish_ninja]

Hmm, so rumination pretty much disproved my 'don't open with charge' statement in his video. Then again I'm pretty early on in my insanity run so I've been making due with not maxed out charge + champion. Good stuff!

[Sodom Gomorrah]

i would agree that the vanguard has to become tougher in close combat. Right now it's fairly weak in it's main focus, wich is unusually stupid for a BioWare game.



But then again, noone's ferpect

[Effay]

The new DLC shotgun seems pretty rape to me. Excellent with Heavy charge, gives you time to line up headshots. Killed Blue Suns Centurions in like two shots and a melee on hardcore with it.

[sinosleep]

delete

Modifié par sinosleep, 10 février 2010 - 01:06 .

[zapban]

Ok if anyone says the vanguard doesn't work right you don't know what your talkin about I wouldn't say it's easy but it's not really that hard also from what I heard, I didn't play ME1 it seems like it would be way to easy also I think perhaps they should add another dificulty level on so like the lowest level things have 500 point shields 1000 point armor and like 4000 health but you have infinite ammo with reloads..... Lol I got off topic but that would be epic

[finc.loki]

kznlol wrote...

Alocormin wrote...

But what about an infiltrator with the widowmaker?

The Widowmaker is unworkably bad. It is both a worse weapon than the Viper if you intend to use it as your mainstay, and it requires that you sacrifice assault rifles if you only intend to use it on 'hard' enemies - meaning, essentially, you're forced into using an SMG/Pistol as your mainstay, when you could be using either the Viper (where all your damage bonuses are), or an assault rifle (quite simply the best weapon class in the game).

It may make isolated segments of the game easy, but it will make the majority more difficult than they would be otherwise.

You sound like you're a horrible Infiltrator player.

I've read your posts and you seem to have no clue how to use the cloak and you use a fricken assault rifle on an infiltrator class, instead of a one hit kill weapon like the widow.

A decent Infiltrator player and the Widow, would one shot it's way through the same area in no time.

Make the shots count and you can kill 13 enemies with the widow and YES you do find ammo even if not much.
Don't forget heavy incinirate which is devestatingly powerful for  armor/health enemies , use the Handcannon and finish them off.

Handcannon with AP ammo and cloak, is cake walk with simpler enemies.
How about some SMG kill up close with cloak tactical advancement.

You were nerfing the Infiltrator build choosing a weapon like assault rifle.

Just like your opinion, this was mine.

On topic:

Is Vanguard easy on lower levels like Normal/Veteran ?

Looks like it could be fun playing Vanguard, the reason I would play on lower level like Veteran is because I would like more use of Shockwave and pull, also it seems awfully frantic play on insanity.
I do like the faster play and such but want it a little slower and use the other powers somewhat as well.

Modifié par finc.loki, 12 février 2010 - 11:06 .

[Simz1986]

Nothing is hard below veteran if you dont charge into a group of 4-5 + and fight head on. you still get some use out of pull on insanity. when you fight stuff you cant charge, if you bring along miranda to break the shielding. then just pull them out of cover for win

[Garrick27]

...deleted until I can research a little more. confused....

Modifié par Garrick27, 14 février 2010 - 06:20 .

[D4rk50ul808]

It works fine until the collector ship mission. Vanguard + platforms = broken controller

[Average Gatsby]

Question: Do you think I should change the name of this thread to simply Vanguard Debate Thread or Vanguard Functionality Discussion of something like that?

[sinosleep]

Personally I like it leaving default. This is one of very, VERY few threads (and that's across over a decade of internet time) where someone came in with one opinion and left the thread with another. Leaving the thread title as is shows that. Kinda of how you did with your OP.

Modifié par sinosleep, 14 février 2010 - 07:00 .

[TomNickles]

At first I was all angry at Vanguard on Insanity. I played like a wuss and thought this is not how you play this class. Now after watching sino's videos I know what I was doing wrong. I was curious as I have seen Bioware people post here, I wonder what Bioware thinks about all this Vanguard HC/Insanity debate. Do they see any need for changes to the class? Either way I do think beating the game on Insanity as a Vanguard should be an achievement lol