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[MGIII]

Average Gatsby wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

I think vanguards play just fine and dandy on insanity. Here's some gameplay footage of me



I charge all the time, use the shotgun almost exclusively, melee often, and rarely die, even if I do see the ol red veins more often than some other classes might.

So I watched this video a few times, and at where you are at in the game, thats a very effective strategy. I'm not gonna make any stupid comments, but just a couple things. I'm not trying to start a war or anything like that but I just feel that the vid needs some context.

    At this point in the game, you are lvl 8, with maxed out charge. That means you basically have one move that does significantly more damage and has more effect, proportionally, than any other move at this point. The reason why you can 2 shot anyone at this point is because your fighting humanoids, who are weak to shotguns, and because your so low level that at point blank, you can always two shot with the shotgun on humanoids. At end game, with that particular shotgun, you won't be able to two shot anymore. And your charge, will never get any stronger. It'll stay at that same, so that 1000 newtons you hit right now at lvl 8 stays the same when you hit 30. I know you get upgrades, but it won't proportion out. Endgame, that charge just won't have the power you're going to need
    Your also fighting all humanoids with shields, and you have miranda with maxed out overload. She's 1 shotting those guys shields. Again, its because she's maxed out at lvl 8. Her overload won't proportionally be that strong when you get a bit further in the game.
    I'd love to be able to play the Vanguard like this the whole game, but the fact is that charge, overload, and the shotgun are really going to start to show their weaknesses in a few levels. I'll also note that because my shepards are imported, I don't think I could even get to that mission any lower than 10.

...I was doing the exact thing on the Collector Cruiser. In fact, that's the only reason I survived it. Sooo...yeah.

[Average Gatsby]

Also, fixed some spelling. Sorry that was really dumb of me.

[Average Gatsby]

MGIII wrote...

...I was doing the exact thing on the Collector Cruiser. In fact, that's the only reason I survived it. Sooo...yeah.

He's got a video that we can all see and talk about and respond to. Do you have something?

[Odd Hermit]

Average Gatsby wrote...


If you don't agree, I submit to you Bioware's take on how a vangard is supposed to play:
Vanguard commentary by the Lead Mass Effect 2 game designer

"Charge is an extremely tactical power"

Heh...

[sinosleep]

Average Gatsby wrote...

So I watched this video a few times, and at where you are at in the game, thats a very effective strategy. I'm not gonna make any stupid comments, but just a couple things. I'm not trying to start a war or anything like that but I just feel that the vid needs some context.

    At this point in the game, you are lvl 8, with maxed out charge. That means you basically have one move that does significantly more damage and has more effect, proportionally, than any other move at this point. The reason why you can 2 shot anyone at this point is because your fighting humanoids, who are weak to shotguns, and because your so low level that at point blank, you can always two shot with the shotgun on humanoids. At end game, with that particular shotgun, you won't be able to two shot anymore. And your charge, will never get any stronger. It'll stay at that same, so that 1000 newtons you hit right now at lvl 8 stays the same when you hit 30. I know you get upgrades, but it won't proportion out. Endgame, that charge just won't have the power you're going to need
    Your also fighting all humanoids with shields, and you have miranda with maxed out overload. She's 1 shotting those guys shields. Again, its because she's maxed out at lvl 8. Her overload won't proportionally be that strong when you get a bit further in the game.
    I'd love to be able to play the Vanguard like this the whole game, but the fact is that charge, overload, and the shotgun are really going to start to show their weaknesses in a few levels. I'll also note that because my shepards are imported, I don't think I could even get to that mission any lower than 10.

Actually, all you have to do is upgrade to the claymore and you are right back to one shotting everything, here's proof with my old lvl 25 female vanguard



one shotting Geth late game on Legion's loyalty mission.

This isn't my first rodeo, I just happened to make a low level video to stress the point that others were arguing vanguards were worthless until later levels, which is actually the opposite of what you're saying. Also, in regards to Miranda, if you look at the health bars you'll see that most of the people I charged had FULL shields, I didn't use the overload as often as I could have and NO she never one shotted anyone's shield off. You can clearly see in the one portion where I have to switch to the pistol, it was after an overload, and I still had to shoot off the remainder o the shield.

[edited] that came off more rude than I meant to come off as

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 février 2010 - 07:55 .

[Kronner]

It IS functional. I completed the game on both Hardcore and Insanity without any problems. I am now playing NG+ on Insanity and it is much harder, but still doable. So please do not say BS like Vanguard is useless on Hardcore or Insanity.

[Average Gatsby]

sinosleep wrote...

Average Gatsby wrote...

So I watched this video a few times, and at where you are at in the game, thats a very effective strategy. I'm not gonna make any stupid comments, but just a couple things. I'm not trying to start a war or anything like that but I just feel that the vid needs some context.

    At this point in the game, you are lvl 8, with maxed out charge. That means you basically have one move that does significantly more damage and has more effect, proportionally, than any other move at this point. The reason why you can 2 shot anyone at this point is because your fighting humanoids, who are weak to shotguns, and because your so low level that at point blank, you can always two shot with the shotgun on humanoids. At end game, with that particular shotgun, you won't be able to two shot anymore. And your charge, will never get any stronger. It'll stay at that same, so that 1000 newtons you hit right now at lvl 8 stays the same when you hit 30. I know you get upgrades, but it won't proportion out. Endgame, that charge just won't have the power you're going to need
    Your also fighting all humanoids with shields, and you have miranda with maxed out overload. She's 1 shotting those guys shields. Again, its because she's maxed out at lvl 8. Her overload won't proportionally be that strong when you get a bit further in the game.
    I'd love to be able to play the Vanguard like this the whole game, but the fact is that charge, overload, and the shotgun are really going to start to show their weaknesses in a few levels. I'll also note that because my shepards are imported, I don't think I could even get to that mission any lower than 10.

Actually, all you have to do is upgrade to the claymore and you are right back to one shotting everything, here's proof with my old lvl 25 female vanguard



one shotting Geth late game on Legion's loyalty mission.

This isn't my first rodeo, I just happened to make a low level video to stress the point that others were arguing vanguards were worthless until later levels, which is actually the opposite of what you're saying. Also, in regards to Miranda, if you look at the health bars you'll see that most of the people I charged had FULL shields, I didn't use the overload as often as I could have and NO she never one shotted anyone's shield off. You can clearly see in the one portion where I have to switch to the pistol, it was after an overload, and I still had to shoot off the remainder o the shield.

[edited] that came off more rude than I meant to come off as

That was a great video. Its actually inspired me to try out my vanguard again using your build. I'd say this definitely shows that charge/shotgun is usable end game.

I'll still stick to my original post on one thing though, and thats you've also shown how useless the other part of the vanguard is, with Pull and Shockwave, because your charge gives you all the range you need. So Vanguard is still kinda messed up, in my mind, because it means that two abilities, essentially the Biotic part, are rendered useless. Would you say thats fair?

[Average Gatsby]

Kronner wrote...

It IS functional. I completed the game on both Hardcore and Insanity without any problems. I am now playing NG+ on Insanity and it is much harder, but still doable. So please do not say BS like Vanguard is useless on Hardcore or Insanity.

This is a debate page. I posted the OP because I wanted a response and a discussion on it. I presented my observations and I'm giving other people a chance to post their views on the subject. I'm not saying "Vanguard blows uGGHHHHH FACE" I'm saying, "Hey vanguard doesn't seem very functional, here are my reasons. Do you agree with me or not? How come? Lets talk."

[sinosleep]

Average Gatsby wrote...

That was a great video. Its actually inspired me to try out my vanguard again using your build. I'd say this definitely shows that charge/shotgun is usable end game.

I'll still stick to my original post on one thing though, and thats you've also shown how useless the other part of the vanguard is, with Pull and Shockwave, because your charge gives you all the range you need. So Vanguard is still kinda messed up, in my mind, because it means that two abilities, essentially the Biotic part, are rendered useless. Would you say thats fair?

It's kind of situational, but there were spots where it was more efficient for use biotics than it was to use the shotgun. For instance husk rushes. Particularly on stages like the dead reaper where there are cliffs on both sides. Instead of rushing in and shotgunning I would use Samara to mass reave their armor off , and then use heavy shockwave (the radius is till big enough to send 3 or 4 grouped enemies flying) to send them all off of the cliff. This tactic also works very well against grouped collectors.

Although honestly, I definitely use the shotgun a lot more often than I use biotics.

[Average Gatsby]

sinosleep wrote...

It's kind of situational, but there were spots where it was more efficient for use biotics than it was to use the shotgun. For instance husk rushes. Particularly on stages like the dead reaper where there are cliffs on both sides. Instead of rushing in and shotgunning I would use Samara to mass reave their armor off , and then use heavy shockwave (the radius is till big enough to send 3 or 4 grouped enemies flying) to send them all off of the cliff. This tactic also works very well against grouped collectors.

Although honestly, I definitely use the shotgun a lot more often than I use biotics.

Very true. And I can see pull having an occasional use as well, as well as possibly inferno ammo but it seems better to pick Armor Piercing or Warp and just forget about the ammos.

I think part of my frustration, which you will see in the original post, was a misconception of what this class actually is. I thought it was a variation on a tank type class, a la the sentinel and to some extent soldier. What I see now is that the Vanguard has more in common, from a damage/tactical perspective, with an Infiltrator: OVerwhelming force on a single target, then back off, then apply again. It's a burst damage class, not a tank class, so when I took barrier and lvled it up plus pull at the same time as charge, I was pretty much screwed from the get go.

[Kronner]

Average Gatsby wrote...

Kronner wrote...

It IS functional. I completed the game on both Hardcore and Insanity without any problems. I am now playing NG+ on Insanity and it is much harder, but still doable. So please do not say BS like Vanguard is useless on Hardcore or Insanity.

This is a debate page. I posted the OP because I wanted a response and a discussion on it. I presented my observations and I'm giving other people a chance to post their views on the subject. I'm not saying "Vanguard blows uGGHHHHH FACE" I'm saying, "Hey vanguard doesn't seem very functional, here are my reasons. Do you agree with me or not? How come? Lets talk."

Yes, and I disagree with you completly. Vanguard is a killing machine when used correctly.
I did also complete the game as a Sentinel on Insanity and yes, it was safer, but on the other hand boring, I had no fear of dying.
Vanguard presents challenge, but it works incredibly well if you get used to it.
Let's look at Vanguard skills:
Inferno ammo - very useful, prevents regeneration, organic targets panic
Cryo ammo - fun to use on lower difficulty levels, but useless on Insanity imho
Heavy Charge is very effective and superior to Area Charge, on Insanity.
Champion is standard passive skill, imho better than Destroyer because of cooldown reduction.
Pull - useless on Insanity
Improved Shockwave - good only against husks after you strip their armor off with SMG
Bonus talent - useful either way

Does not look that bad.

Modifié par Kronner, 06 février 2010 - 08:24 .

[Haadurin]

I agree with OP. Especially that the shotgun is totally underpowered (probably as a result from the ME1 Shotties being freaking incredible).



A patch needs to increase exponentially the damage of Charge, and also significantly power-up shotguns.

[sinosleep]

Did you watch the videos I posted. Claymore one shots standard mobs on insanity. 2 shots elite mobs like geth hunters. How much more powerful you want it to be?

[sgrzadka]

sinosleep wrote...

I think vanguards play just fine and dandy on insanity. Here's some gameplay footage of me



I charge all the time, use the shotgun almost exclusively, melee often, and rarely die, even if I do see the ol red veins more often than some other classes might.

[sgrzadka]

Haha yea sino, dude, epic video. beastly game play. thats how it is done with the vanguard

[Average Gatsby]

I'm editing my OP to show how I've changed my mind, however, I want to leave everything up because I want people to read how this went down so they can also play the vanguard well AND as it was intended, and also because I know that this issue likely won't go away for awhile when people mess up their early builds (like me).

[aeetos21]

I watched it sino, left a message also - props to getting as far as you did. On that mission I switched difficulties at the area you managed to do on insanity. Guess that means you play the class better than me.



Still, I want to see you take down Jedore and do the shutters portion of arcangel's recruitment. I managed to get as far as you did up until those points.



As for Mordin's and Jack's? I beat Jack's by treating mostly like a shooter (not really a VG style combat) and I beat Mordin's by abusing charge and hitting both fans by just charging through enemies.



Still, good videos :-)

[sinosleep]

I'll see what I can do when I get home. Though I'll be frank about arcangel's recruitment, I only had lvl 3 charge at that point, so I couldn't charge nearly as well at that point in the game. I can do it, but it certainly won't go the way the two other vids went.

[kaff33nd]

What I'd like to know is his: Has anyone managed to use charge to escape? In the Christina Norman vid she says it can get you out of trouble. No matter how many times I try to do that it never works. I'm hurt bad, and I wanna charge behind some cover, but I just stand there after activating it. Also, the situations where you can actually charge an enemy seem very limited, ie. the target needs to meet certain prerequisites to be susceptible. Like, you can't charge up levels. You can charge a target who's on top of a crate, but you can't charge him if he's on another floor level. You can charge across chasms, but not upstairs? That "I can't get a lock" thing in sinosleep's vid happens all the time with me. Sometimes (when I'm likely to die any second) I'm charging a guy at melee range just to get my shields up. And endgame, every second mob has shields so I can't even use charge on them. Thankfully I have level 4 Inferno Ammo, so I shoot through the shields and then I can charge them. But WHY? When the shields are down they're prone to any small arms fire, which my other 2 squad members have covered. I think that was the OP's main concern, but I could be mistaken.

[sinosleep]

In the video you are talking about I charged a guy up a ramp on a balcony. Also, what are you talking about in regards to enemies with shields? I charge enemies with shields in that video as well. That's why they aren't sent flying back except for that one guy in the beginning, cause you don't send them flying unless they only have health left. In regards to charging to escape, she just means charging at a different guy who is far away from the group you are fighting at the time. If you look closely you'll see in the Christina Norman vid that when she used charge to escape she hit a guy that only had health left. But since there wasn't any slowmo it's hard to see him flying away.

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 février 2010 - 09:59 .

[Kronner]

kaff33nd wrote...

What I'd like to know is his: Has anyone managed to use charge to escape? In the Christina Norman vid she says it can get you out of trouble. No matter how many times I try to do that it never works. I'm hurt bad, and I wanna charge behind some cover, but I just stand there after activating it. Also, the situations where you can actually charge an enemy seem very limited, ie. the target needs to meet certain prerequisites to be susceptible. Like, you can't charge up levels. You can charge a target who's on top of a crate, but you can't charge him if he's on another floor level. You can charge across chasms, but not upstairs? That "I can't get a lock" thing in sinosleep's vid happens all the time with me. Sometimes (when I'm likely to die any second) I'm charging a guy at melee range just to get my shields up. And endgame, every second mob has shields so I can't even use charge on them. Thankfully I have level 4 Inferno Ammo, so I shoot through the shields and then I can charge them. But WHY? When the shields are down they're prone to any small arms fire, which my other 2 squad members have covered. I think that was the OP's main concern, but I could be mistaken.

You can charge enemy with any defenses (that is if they are not in some otherwise inaccessible area) and kill them easily. Also, to use charge you have to "lock on" to an enemy, so no charging without enemies.

Modifié par Kronner, 06 février 2010 - 10:03 .

[blueTrance]

Try adding one of the defensive bonus skills, like Fortitude or Geth Shield Boost. Charge needs to be used really tactically on higher difficulties, but it's still completely useful. Make sure the point you charge from and the point you charge to are both near cover. Get off a shotgun blast or two and then get back in before your defensive skills wear off. The higher the difficulty, the less shots you can safely get in. You still won't be able to use it all the time,  though. Learning when you need to just stay in cover is also part of adapting to the class. If you pay attention to what you're being shot with, it gets a whole lot easier to use Vanguard properly. Don't think about Charge purely as an offensive ability, either. It's also great for fleeing. I used it like that a lot against Scions. 

Modifié par blueTrance, 06 février 2010 - 10:08 .

[aimlessgun]

Nice video. I ended up playing through insanity mostly not using the shotgun or charge the majority of the time, but it's nice to see the super aggressive style can work well. Just not my style, so I played Vangaurd as this jack of all trades class which could fight at any range or situation.

[LothAintLucky]

Agree with the OP. I thoroughly enjoyed vanguard on veteran, after shields/barriers/armor was taken care of. Restarting the game on Insanity, was just that. After making it through the starting levels and recruiting Mordin first, I switched to soldier and one-shot rooms it took me several attempts to clear. The vanguard just wasn't killing fast enough to progress through the room with limited ranged damage skills and biotics that don't affect all that armor/barrier/shield fun in Insanity. Really fun class! Just got less fun and more underpowered feeling in harder modes.

Again, I love the charge addtion to the shotgun/biotics Vanguard class.  it's just more enjoyable to go with what kills easier on Insanity.  But my original "canon" Shepard has always been and will always be a vanguard.

Modifié par LothAintLucky, 06 février 2010 - 10:30 .

[Kompaniet gibb]

sinosleep has the same idea that I have when playing VG on Insanity. Well played sir! :-)



A couple of things that I try to do;

- Check radar before charging in, and watch for easy access to cover or partial cover until your next charge. Plan ahead two moves minimum before you rush in, or you probably wont survive.

- Use meele alot (and get the dmg upgrade!) but be aware that some of the tougher enemeies will not flinch when you hit them.

- Headshots help, check out the PC Tweaks thread to remove mousesmoothing and adjust sensitivity.

- Warp/AP/other squad-wide ammo on one of your teammates for your SMG, I use incindiary(sp?) ammo for my shotgun for the extra panic factor + shotgun burndamage is pretty good.

- Overload / Warp on your squadmates helps alot.

- Charging through to the enemy that is furthest back will most often make all enemys turn around to face you, and seek cover from you, not your squadmates. Which will tear them up pretty well, especially with squad-wide Warp-ammo or similar.



Remember you can also play defensively, and I had to do that until I had charge at lvl 4 (Heavy Charge), but if you play like a gimped soldier you'll feel like a gimped soldier.



So go out there and CHARGE, wont be easy but it's one hell of a rewarding experience when you can face a new area of mobs, quickly check your radar for enemy positions, scout out your path of carnage and CHARGE in, using your squads debuffs while you are airborn and totally humiliate most encounters that took you several minutes of crouching behind cover to beat with your [insert less challenging class here].