279 réponses à ce sujet

[Odd Hermit]

I never said the class sucked, in fact it's my class of choice. It's just lacking in certain areas compared to the stronger classes like Infilitrator or Sentinel.



Would a few changes such as -



Increased duration of bullet-time after charges

Shield increase after charging

A damage boost to shotguns

A buff or change to pull/shockwave to make them more useful



Make the class less fun for you? Because I think the above would make the class a lot more fun to play on harder difficulty levels.

[kaff33nd]

Oh, and sinosleep, what you do doesn't apply to us normal people. Jeez, I watched that vid you posted with my jaw hangin' as there's no way in hell I can play like that!

[sinosleep]

I just don't think the class is gimped as is. That's why I've been BEGGING for someone to do a section I've done, or to show me a vid they consider to be great infiltrator, sentinel or soldier play so I can do the same section, record myself doing it, and show everyone that vanguards aren't gimped on any difficulty.

[Odd Hermit]

I will concede all points if you upload a video of you doing a ballerina dance in a banana suit.

[Kompaniet gibb]

sinosleep; I think you should record the last fight on Horizon for example. That one was for me a pretty convincing example of what maxed out charge can do vs pretty bad odds.



Anyone know of a recording software other than Fraps that is free and doesn't take too big a toll on FPS? (I'm on a crap PC)

[thisisme8]

Sinosleep did a gerat job on that vid. Insanity, solo, charge, shotty. Big time kudos.

[Odd Hermit]

Kompaniet gibb wrote...

sinosleep; I think you should record the last fight on Horizon for example. That one was for me a pretty convincing example of what maxed out charge can do vs pretty bad odds.

Anyone know of a recording software other than Fraps that is free and doesn't take too big a toll on FPS? (I'm on a crap PC)

People like me will just point out that it's entirely possible and likely that you did the mission multiple times to make the video look good. It's fairly obvious you're not going to show yourself dying when you're trying to make a video proving a class is stronger than most people think.

[Kompaniet gibb]

Odd Hermit wrote...

I never said the class sucked, in fact it's my class of choice. It's just lacking in certain areas compared to the stronger classes like Infilitrator or Sentinel.

Would a few changes such as -

Increased duration of bullet-time after charges
Shield increase after charging
A damage boost to shotguns
A buff or change to pull/shockwave to make them more useful

Make the class less fun for you? Because I think the above would make the class a lot more fun to play on harder difficulty levels.

Thanks for keeping it more civil than I do! 

No I don't think minor buffs would adversely effect my experience, perhaps make some parts of the game trivial but that's okay I guess. As long as there's challenge every now and then, the occasional god-like spree doesn't bother me.

I agree that certain areas of the game is very hard with VG on Insanity, especially in the beginning before you have a good charge level and some upgrades (for example the Vorcha on the Moridin mission I found tough). But all of them are pretty easy once you figure out how it's done, and by the end of that mission I was using charge -> retreat to cover constantly. I expected adversity and Insane difficulty so I was actually a bit underwhelmed by the challenge...


Only thing I'd change on VG is the fact that you can't Charge to friendlies or walled off areas. Oh and perhaps have more ammo for shotgun, alot of the times the NPC-dropped clips fly off ledges for me. Also some kind of melee-spec would be satisfying for me.


It's insanity after all, supposed to be hard. :-)
If VG is more enjoyable on the easier difficulties, maybe playing them is a good solution for now?
Personally I really enojy overcoming the weaknesses of "gimped" classes on hard difficulties just because it's not trivial. Especially with this class, since I find I overcome the weaknesses by playing super duper aggressive which is alot of fun.


Peace!

[thisisme8]

Odd Hermit wrote...

Kompaniet gibb wrote...

sinosleep; I think you should record the last fight on Horizon for example. That one was for me a pretty convincing example of what maxed out charge can do vs pretty bad odds.

Anyone know of a recording software other than Fraps that is free and doesn't take too big a toll on FPS? (I'm on a crap PC)

People like me will just point out that it's entirely possible and likely that you did the mission multiple times to make the video look good. It's fairly obvious you're not going to show yourself dying when you're trying to make a video proving a class is stronger than most people think.

Why do you feel the need to tear down someone else's achievements?

[_Dannok1234]

Charge is so amazingly powerful when you combine it with a shotgun, I think giving it more power then it already has would imbalance the game massively. Insanity at that point would not be any challenge.

Playing on Normal/vet or even to some extent hardcore, charge feels almost like cheating at times.



Still saying that, I to probably die more as a vanguard then when I play an infiltrator or sentinel, but thats mostly down to being reckless and enjoying it too much, as I pretty much charge at every opportunity. Take away that risk of dying from charging into a group of 3 with full defenses, and you might as well put on a god mode cheat in my mind.

[matt654321]

sinosleep wrote...

Odd Hermit wrote...

Forums are for discussion?

You're not discussing, you're just dismissing everyone else.

You're the only one doing that. You keep saying "look I have a video of me not dying on insanity." That doesn't mean the class is good or balanced. No one is saying that it's impossible to win with a Vanguard, but they are at a disadvantage, whether you want to admit it or not.

[Kronner]

matt654321 wrote...

No one is saying that it's impossible to win with a Vanguard, but they are at a disadvantage, whether you want to admit it or not.

What disadvantage? One shot = one kill on Insanity is not good enough? Yeah, Vanguards could use more defensive powers, but for that you can add Fortification/Barrier and you have really good class.
When you activate the improved barrier and then charge you are going to have over 800 points in barrier, if thats not good enough go for heavy version and you will have even more.

Or what would you change for the Vanguards?

[princecaspn]

I was really unsure of the Vanguard when I started it but I just beat the game on hardcore last night and have to say I now love the class.

The secret to my success was the following:

Max charge to the AoE and max cryo ammo to squad cryo ammo. Also learn and max out barrier.  No points in shockwave or pull as I never felt a need for them. Most important part of this plan however, is the Claymore shotgun. That baby will eat through any defense when you are up close and personal with the enemy. Squad cryo ammo means lots of frozen baddies and you just keep charging around the map shattering them and blasting them in the face. I am looking forward to a second play through with my vanguard because I love the class now.

Modifié par princecaspn, 06 février 2010 - 03:54 .

[Kompaniet gibb]

How well does squad Cryo work on higher difficulties?

Does it effectively shut down any mobs down to healthbar from the squads supportive fire?

[matt654321]

Kronner wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

No one is saying that it's impossible to win with a Vanguard, but they are at a disadvantage, whether you want to admit it or not.

What disadvantage? One shot = one kill on Insanity is not good enough? Yeah, Vanguards could use more defensive powers, but for that you can add Fortification/Barrier and you have really good class.
When you activate the improved barrier and then charge you are going to have over 800 points in barrier, if thats not good enough go for heavy version and you will have even more.

Or what would you change for the Vanguards?

You're exaggerating - Vanguards don't 1-shot kill anything on insanity, especially anything that matters. It's been said over and over - charge can be used, but when it won't get you killed it isn't providing much additional benefit. The other classes' skills provide much more benefit in many more situations. The rest of the Vanguard powers suffer from useless-biotics syndrome on upper difficulty levels.

[Malanthor]

What they need would be for biotic to work to a lesser degree(as in work at all, not work worse than it currently is) on shielded/armored enemys. Thats the big achilles heal for the adept and since vanguard are to a high degree a biotic aswell id say the same goes for him. Biotic imo is the bad part of class balance in me2. And a fix to eliminate the problem with not beeing able to charge here and there would be fine.

Besides that i think vanguard is fine, (well based on my 30 mins test run on various difficulties) : P

Modifié par Self Controll, 06 février 2010 - 03:57 .

[_Dannok1234]

matt654321 wrote...

Kronner wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

No one is saying that it's impossible to win with a Vanguard, but they are at a disadvantage, whether you want to admit it or not.

What disadvantage? One shot = one kill on Insanity is not good enough? Yeah, Vanguards could use more defensive powers, but for that you can add Fortification/Barrier and you have really good class.
When you activate the improved barrier and then charge you are going to have over 800 points in barrier, if thats not good enough go for heavy version and you will have even more.

Or what would you change for the Vanguards?

You're exaggerating - Vanguards don't 1-shot kill anything on insanity, especially anything that matters. It's been said over and over - charge can be used, but when it won't get you killed it isn't providing much additional benefit. The other classes' skills provide much more benefit in many more situations. The rest of the Vanguard powers suffer from useless-biotics syndrome on upper difficulty levels.

You are incorrect about that. The Krogan shotgun will oneshot normal enemies. That is those with Shield, barrier or armor+health. The only times you can't use charge or using charge won't benefit you in some way is when you cannot reach the enemy.

You keep going on about only using charge to finish off a fight or to finish off an enemy is completely wrong and shows that you haven't really had much experience with the class.

On insanity you can charge 3 enemies that have shields/barriers or Armor + health, and if you know what you are doing, you will kill them all in less then 8 seconds usually. In most cases it's actually to your advantage to charge against elites or even some boss type creatures as well. 

[kaff33nd]

I feel there is a point being missed in all this... Nobody can say sinosleep isn't bloody brilliant in playing the vanguard well. But sinosleep is not a very good representation of players' skill. I would wager that he's better than most of us in this regard, and as such, is not a good voice for this argument. If we could all play like him this thread wouldn't exist. Balanced gameplay design shouldn't be (and isn't) based on a single elite player's ability to play it; it is based on how most people play it. Otherwise BioWare could just employ the very best player in the world to play their games, and upon their success or failure deem the game playable. Alas, I am NOT sinosleep and I don't have any illusions of being anywhere near as good as him at playing the vanguard. I find it downright frustrating at harder difficulty levels to play this class the way it was meant to be played. That is, in-your-face combat. Rant over.

[_Dannok1234]

No offense to sinosleep, but I don't really think doing what he's doing in the vid's is showing him as some elite player. Because quite frankly it's not all that difficult to press some buttons. I'll give you that he's really good with aiming and doing it all real time. But if your reaction time or aiming skills are not as good as his. Then all you have to do in order to repeat such a performance is to hit pause once in a while.



Which is what I do when I feel that I need an edge. Getting too old and soft I suppose



Main point is. Anyone should be able to replicate that. Just use some common sense on which enemy(ies) to charge first, then the next etc. Mind your surroundings or some such.

[kaff33nd]

Yes I use the pause all the time, but it was the real-time combat I was admiring. I feel that pausing constantly kinda takes away the flow of combat. I NEED to use the shift key, sinosleep doesn't (apparently).

[Thaddeus Mynor]

@ Old Hermit. Don't Sentinels get a bonus to slow-mo time for their sniper rifle? Just like how playing an infiltrator is coined by playing with a sniper rifle, I think the point of playing a Vanguard is to play with a shotgun. So maybe adding a bonus to shotgun damage or ammo. They should have some sort of bonus that sets them apart from the soldier.

[Kompaniet gibb]

Shouldn't Insanity be for players with higher skill then?

[Rieverre]

Just for the heck of it, I restarted as a Vanguard on Hardcore and played through it. Seems to me like it's perfectly usable. It's not the Tank class - Sentinel is. It's not the damage class - Soldier and Infiltrator are. But it worked for me. Admittedly, I didn't use Charge near as aggressively as sino did in his vid, but I still used it, and to good effect. No Barrier or Geth Shield Boost as a bonus power either. I did grab an Assault Rifle on the Collector Ship, but that was mostly due to my preference in playstyle and dislike of the Claymore than anything else.

Still, Charge is a viable and effective power IMO. I may not use it all the time, but I do use it a lot. On anything above Veteran, it's what keeps a Vanguard alive. The shield recharge and relocation have kept me fighting more times than I can count, and it's great _specifically_ for taking out opponents who are either armored and shielded for one simple reason. They _don't_ fly away. Catch one alone or behind cover from the rest of their squad, and they're easy pickings for the shotgun-melee combination. All that and it lets you cross difficult terrain without getting shot at.

Sure, I don't use it all the time, but it can be an awesome tactical mechanic, even for someone with at best average relexes and a mixed defense/offense playstyle. It works, it is functional, quit whining about it.

[Odd Hermit]

Kompaniet gibb wrote...

Shouldn't Insanity be for players with higher skill then?

I think the idea is getting classes to perform roughly equally on all levels of difficulty. Certain classes scale down in power on higher difficulties while others are less adversely affected or are arguably even better.

Perhaps it's balancing the enemies differently, as on my Vanguard a lot of enemies you quite simply do not want to try charging, in particular armored and shielded targets. I did a lot of switching from the SMG to the heavy pistol to take off shields and then barriers early on. Reave really rounds the class out very well but you don't start with it and it's not part of the class just happens to be an amazing ability.

Disrupter ammo and incinerate make the Infilitrator a lot more versatile vs. all enemy types, shielded, synthetic, armored, etc. And tactical cloak is useful against every enemy unlike charge.

I think at the very least shotguns need to be more useful, at least the ones before the Krogan(never used Krogan on my Vanguard as I wasn't getting great results from shotguns before the choice to switch weapons so I took sniper rifle), and pull/shockwave need to have some effect on armored targets, even if it's something like reave - the control aspect doesn't work but it deals damage or something.

Modifié par Odd Hermit, 06 février 2010 - 04:45 .

[kaff33nd]

On a slightly different note: Who has had enemy vanguards charge them?