426 réponses à ce sujet

[tonnactus]

[quote]lazuli wrote...


I like your idea for the powers doing more than negligble damage vs. defenses.
[quote]

Misunderstood.Powers should work like intented.Pull should pull even an enemy with defenses.But this should come at the cost of a penalty. For example, an adept could loose his shields(called barrier know...) if he doing this.

[quote]
And the Adept doesn't have to spam Warp on Insanity.  The vast majority of enemies you encounter can have their defenses stripped by one use of a power that you or your companions can carry.  And then you can go to town with Biotics.

[/quote]

Only troopers/cannon fooder. Even with heavy overload a blun sun legionaire dont loose all his shields.

And that is not the point.The point is,i doesnt make sense for a crowd control class to rely on this.

Just imagine a jedi has to destroy the shields of a shocktrooper before he/she could use the force.

Sounds absurd,right?

That adept is basicly the jedi/sith of Mass Effect.Or mage.

Modifié par tonnactus, 27 juin 2010 - 07:20 .

[Pacifien]

JaegerBane wrote...
This issue you keep banging on about, 'you can't make the class work for you', is irrelevant - the class can work under all circumstances irrespective of player.

I've seen Soldiers harp about how much they don't like to play caster classes. And people who play caster classes wonder what the point of a Soldier is. They play differently and require a learning curve to people who are trying to work outside of their element. Then you get someone who has always been a caster class suddenly having a problem playing an Adept, a class that should be in their element. It requires another type of learning curve, one that a person not be willing to make.

The point is that every class isn't going to work under all circumstances irrespective of the player unless the player makes a conscious decision to learn it. You could just as easily get someone who throws their hands up in the air and decries the failure of the Sentinel class because it's defensive only. Nevermind other people have played it aggressively.

A person can make a class work for them and have no fun with it, however.

[Pacifien]

JaegerBane wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
My point is that you can still play an Adept on Insanity and play it well

A point that I neither disagree with nor is the point of this thread.

Yes, the point of the thread was that someone tried playing the Adept on Normal difficulty, didn't think it was fun, then decided to play a different class next. Five months ago.

[lazuli]

tonnactus wrote...



Misunderstood.Powers should work like intented.Pull should pull even an enemy with defenses.But this should come at the cost of a penalty. For example, an adept could loose his shields(called barrier know...) if he doing this.

No, I understood you.

tonnactus wrote...
Only troopers/cannon fooder. Even with heavy overload a blun sun legionaire dont loose all his shields.

And that is not the point.The point is,i doesnt make sense for a crowd control class to rely on this.

Just imagine a jedi has to destroy the shields of a shocktrooper before he/she could use the force.

Sounds absurd,right?

That adept is basicly the jedi/sith of Mass Effect.Or mage.

It might make more sense if the only type of defense that could block biotics were Barriers.  

Regardless, I don't think it sounds absurd that defenses need to be stripped before an opponent can be completely and utterly negated for a significant period of time.

If the ME2 Adept's powers had the same super long recharge times that the ME1 Adept's powers had, then yes, I'd agree with you.  As it is, even without all of the upgrades an Adept can spam Throw or Pull around every 2 seconds or so.

[NICKjnp]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

The biotic powers take too long to reach the target in ME2 I think. 

Yeah.. I prefer the instant casting from ME1.  I don't feel the need to "curve" powers around corners.

[Pacifien]

JohnnyDollar wrote...
The biotic powers take too long to reach the target in ME2 I think. 

Incinerate takes too long to reach the target. Especially if the target is the Human Reaper.

[lazuli]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

The biotic powers take too long to reach the target in ME2 I think. 

This is something they should consider adding an upgrade for, if Biotics and other powers remain projectile-based in ME3.

[Turran]

Pacifien wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...
The biotic powers take too long to reach the target in ME2 I think. 

Incinerate takes too long to reach the target. Especially if the target is the Human Reaper.

This, forget about biotics taking too long, try Incinerate on the Human Reaper, now THAT takes long.
And I disagree, I find the Adept VERY fun and entertaining, I control the battlefield in every situation with ease. I like it and have liked it on many past characters.

[The Spamming Troll]

Pacifien wrote...

tonnactus wrote...
It wouldnt if there are penalties inculded .Like lift an enemy with defenses increase the cooldown of your powers for some time or the adept loose his barrier doing so. And/or reduced duration. There are so much better ways to balance the adept instead of completly nerfing this class. The actual "solution" is pure crap and nonsensical.

Is the Adept nerfed on Veteran and below as well? 'Cause if so, I take back my claim of being the worst Adept ever.

I believe that Hardcore/Insanity needs to be modified, but this has nothing to do with how the Adept performs on such difficulties. Tons of videos have shown how people can completely own the battlefield no matter what class they play. Rather than add more defenses to an enemy, I'd rather they modified how the enemy actually attacks.

Also, I think every class could do with an overhaul in ME3. Starting with ammo powers. No wait, starting with Reave.

and those people hwo make those videos are a very select few. you shouldnt need someone who plays the collector ship on repeat to demonstrate a class actually being effective. i would have though if EA was going to the everyday gamer they wouldnt make things so diffucult for certain classes. its unfortunate for people who love biotics and  just want to throw people around all day like in ME1.

whats the problem with shepard being OP anyways? for reals? did anyone ever complain that adepts were OP in ME1? as much as they might have been a little OP, it was the funnest god damn thing ive evr done, and ME2 took that away from me. ME2 biotics system isnt terrible and im hopeing in ME3 they get it right. are there any solid ideas about how biotics/tech abilities should be used within ME3? that particular point in the game is a really really big deal to me. are there any discusions,which there should be, about how abilities will be handled in ME3?? cuz there should be.

[JaegerBane]

Pacifien wrote...

I've seen Soldiers harp about how much they don't like to play caster classes. And people who play caster classes wonder what the point of a Soldier is. They play differently and require a learning curve to people who are trying to work outside of their element. Then you get someone who has always been a caster class suddenly having a problem playing an Adept, a class that should be in their element. It requires another type of learning curve, one that a person not be willing to make.

The point is that every class isn't going to work under all circumstances irrespective of the player unless the player makes a conscious decision to learn it. You could just as easily get someone who throws their hands up in the air and decries the failure of the Sentinel class because it's defensive only. Nevermind other people have played it aggressively.

A person can make a class work for them and have no fun with it, however.

This is just the issue. It is not a question of learning curves as to whether a Player can handle defences. No matter how open-minded a player is, it does not affect the fact that the Adept is all about physics effects and warp explosions, both of which require an opponent to be undefended - something the Adept alone does not have a trick to facilitate.

You keep trying to paint this issue as one of the player's attitude, when in fact this is very much to do with the way the rock-paper-scissors system interacts with the different classes. No amount of positive vibes and open-mindedness will change how the system actually functions. The point about how people don't 'get' the point of the soldier is just clouding the issue, as it's the most simple of all the classes.

The fact remains that the single best method an Adept has for dealing with shields is to shoot it with his smg. Even the best players of ME2 make it quite plain that the Adept has a disproportionate problem with dealing with synthetics. If other classes had such a disproportinate issue when dealing with other specific types of enemies/situations, I'd accept the point - but that isn't the case. It's not like the Engineer or the soldier truly has to worry bout taking the right team mates along. They all always have something they can call upon.

[NICKjnp]

I would like them to return the instant cast for biotics.... the curving powers thing is stupid. I also want them them to make opponents with armor to be affected by biotics the same way that biotics affect health (same goes with tech). I think armor should only half to be a problem for soldiers (the OP characters for ME2). Also... I loved the adept in ME1... and I want to be able to love the adept in ME3. I don't see why they felt the need to take away something that people liked the first time around. Don't get me wrong... I still love the adept in ME2 but not nearly as much as I did the adept in ME1.

[tonnactus]

lazuli wrote...

If the ME2 Adept's powers had the same super long recharge times that the ME1 Adept's powers had, then yes, I'd agree with you.  As it is, even without all of the upgrades an Adept can spam Throw or Pull around every 2 seconds or so.

It doesnt matter if the biotic recharge times were long in the first game.They all work despite "defenses" and a global cooldown didnt exist.At the end,with the right bioamp and two medical exoskleletons the recharge was as fast as know.
But now,only singularity works on most "protected" enemies. But it even this power didnt work on ymirs and geth primes.
And,ridicolus,didnt work on critters like fenris mechs and varren if they armored.This is just wrong anyway.

Like i wrote, imangine a jedi/sith has to destroy thre shields of a stormtrooper before it is possible to use the force.Its idiotic and didnt make sense.

Or a mage that has to use his dagger(smg) to destroy an armor of an opponent before it is possible to use spells.

This is the situation of the adept in Mass Effect 2.

And even worser, the worth of squadmates like samara(shouldnt be only a reave bot) and subject zero got reduced because of that. Shotgun as their primary weapon against shielded opponents only work with crowd control powers.At least subjects zero shockwave could have affected enemies more then with a brief stagger with their upgrade.

At a cost,of course.Like a destroyed barrier and a doubled cooldown.And/or a combination with a smaller duration.

[lazuli]

tonnactus wrote...

It doesnt matter if the biotic recharge times were long in the first game.They all work despite "defenses" and a global cooldown didnt exist.At the end,with the right bioamp and two medical exoskleletons the recharge was as fast as know.
But now,only singularity works on most "protected" enemies. But it even this power didnt work on ymirs and geth primes.
And,ridicolus,didnt work on critters like fenris mechs and varren if they armored.This is just wrong anyway.

So then they were overpowered.  Now all that stands between you and gamebreaking power is a thin layer of defenses that, on the vast majority of enemies, can be stripped with a single use of a power.  I think the difference between our viewpoints here is that I can accept the defenses as part of the game.  They add a certain level of challenge and call for different tactics.  I don't think the challenge is too great, and I don't mind having to build my team carefully before a mission.  I'll address this further below.

tonnactus wrote...
Like i wrote, imangine a jedi/sith has to destroy thre shields of a stormtrooper before it is possible to use the force.Its idiotic and didnt make sense.

Or a mage that has to use his dagger(smg) to destroy an armor of an opponent before it is possible to use spells.

This is the situation of the adept in Mass Effect 2.

Logically, it doesn't make much sense that armor can stop Biotics.  I will give you that.  Kinetic shields and Barriers, however, do make sense to me, even if they didn't function that way in the first game.

And I don't think you can compare a dagger to an SMG.  One requires a very intimate range to be effective.

tonnactus wrote...

And even worser, the worth of squadmates like samara(shouldnt be only a reave bot) and subject zero got reduced because of that.

I agree that the defense mechanics on higher difficulty levels make some companions basically useless.  Subject Zero is a good example of this.  Our drone summoning companions also come to mind (especially Tali pre-loyalty).  Bioware should have redesigned their skill sets to account for this.  I'd trade Pull or Shockwave for Warp on Subject Zero, for example.

tonnactus wrote...
At least subjects zero shockwave could have affected enemies more then with a brief stagger with their upgrade.

At a cost,of course.Like a destroyed barrier and a doubled cooldown.And/or a combination with a smaller duration.

I like most of your ideas for improving the effects the powers vs. enemies with defenses, but I'm not sure they're necessary.  Defenses are just a part of combat that you need to take into account.  The Adept is perfectly capable of dealing with them, and then unleashing heavy Biotics.  You just might want to construct your build a bit differently.

Fun is subjective, but I found the Adept to be highly enjoyable, even on Insanity.  The exception of course is the final battle.  But I don't enjoy that on any class without a sniper rifle and time dilation.

[tonnactus]

[quote]lazuli wrote...


So then they were overpowered.  Now all that stands between you and gamebreaking power is a thin layer of defenses that, on the vast majority of enemies, can be stripped with a single use of a power. 
Only cannonfodder like eclipse troopers and vorcha.
Not even heavy incinerate destroy the armor of a krogan. Heavy overload didnt destroy the shields of a blue sun legionaire. And squadmates powers have long cooldowns except ammo powers.But then i still have to shoot before i could use another biotic power then singularity. But for shields zaeed with squad disruptor is still better then anyone else... It didnt have a cooldown(activate it once and thats it) and dont have a limited range.

[quote]
I think the difference between our viewpoints here is that I can accept the defenses as part of the game. 
[/quote]
All defenses ,except barriers, should only protect from bullets. Otherwise,they better include/invent a defense type other then shields or armor.That those two did anything to prevent biotic attacks is pure nonsense.

[quote]
Logically, it doesn't make much sense that armor can stop Biotics.  I will give you that.  Kinetic shields and Barriers, however, do make sense to me, even if they didn't function that way in the first game.
[/quote]

Singularity still stop "protected" enemies,but other biotics not.How this make any sense?? Or that it didnt stop critters like varren and fenris mechs.
Singularity stops a harbinger drone and a scion,but not heavy mechs?? Seems all that is needed to win the war against the reapers is to produce enough ymirs(joke).
Good gameplay has to make a little sense at least.

[quote]
And I don't think you can compare a dagger to an SMG.  One requires a very intimate range to be effective.
[/quote]

Only the locusts is  an smg that isnt horrible at middle range.The shuriken and temptest ...
Only shotguns without charge are worser. And this was the reason why a lot of people took always assault rifles at the collector ship.


[quote]tonnactus wrote...



[quote]

I like most of your ideas for improving the effects the powers vs. enemies with defenses, but I'm not sure they're necessary. 
[quote]

For me they are.With penalties and limits that adept could fullfill his role as intended without being overpowered.Singularity has a limit of targets it could affect.If such things are added to other biotics and they work on all enemies(except ships and a geth colossus) then this class would be a lot more enjoyable.

[Pacifien]

JaegerBane wrote...
You keep trying to paint this issue as one of the player's attitude, when in fact this is very much to do with the way the rock-paper-scissors system interacts with the different classes. No amount of positive vibes and open-mindedness will change how the system actually functions. The point about how people don't 'get' the point of the soldier is just clouding the issue, as it's the most simple of all the classes.

It probably comes across that I think Adept is perfectly fine on Insanity because we're specifically in a thread about Adepts. This isn't the case. Do I think the Adept is perfectly fine on Insanity? No. Do I think the other classes are perfectly fine on Insanity? Again, no. If people want to talk about how any class is crippled on Hardcore/Insanity, my only argument is that they aren't crippled enough. That's what makes it Hardcore and Insanity.

And the argument tends to be why can't the Adept powers work as well on Insanity as they do on Normal. Good point. So either they revamp the system, which is something I've said should be done for ME3. Or they cripple every other class as much as they did the Adept for parity, which I doubt is what anyone wants.

If they complain about the Adept on Veteran and below, then I seriously think it is their approach to the class. The developers designed the powers to work under Normal difficulty conditions. Anything beyond that is thrown in for those looking for a challenge. Try that challenge and think it's no fun? Okay. Too bad for them. That doesn't mean the class isn't fun for everyone.

Only want to revamp the system for Adepts? Then we'll never agree. Want to revamp the system for everything? We agree and should probably start a new thread.

[Pacifien]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
*snip*ME2 biotics system isnt terrible and im hopeing in ME3 they get it right. are there any solid ideas about how biotics/tech abilities should be used within ME3? that particular point in the game is a really really big deal to me. are there any discusions,which there should be, about how abilities will be handled in ME3?? cuz there should be.

There has been discussions about it in the past, but such discussions are usually wrapped into the discussions about a particular class. (Much like this one.)

I'd not be adverse to people starting new discussions about it in its own thread.

[tonnactus]

Pacifien wrote...
 No. Do I think the other classes are perfectly fine on Insanity? Again, no.

About what soldier players would complain? That concussive shot didnt work on shielded enemies?

What do you mean with perfectly fine?When it comes to relevant powers,the soldier class is perfectly fine.There isnt an enemy that could prevent the player to use adrenaline rush.
Infiltrators. Enemies with an anti-cloak device didnt exist. Funny ,though, because the normandy was detected by the collector ship.

And the argument tends to be why can't the Adept powers work as well on Insanity as they do on Normal. Good point. So either they revamp the system, which is something I've said should be done for ME3. Or they cripple every other class as much as they did the Adept for parity, which I doubt is what anyone wants.

What dou you mean with crippled? Just imagine:  Enemy engineers use could use neural shock on the soldier. Adreanline rush cooldown gets doubled. Ymirs have advanced radar that reduces the duration of cloak. Is this crippled or balanced?

[Pacifien]

tonnactus wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
No. Do I think the other classes are perfectly fine on Insanity? Again, no.

About what soldier players would complain? That concussive shot didnt work on shielded enemies?

By "perfectly fine," I'm actually referring to whether they work as I think they should on Insanity. The simple fact that soldiers have nothing to complain about on Insanity is exactly why I feel the system is not fine. I then say they aren't crippled enough, but perhaps the better description is that Insanity just isn't insane enough. Every class should have a problem with it.

tonnactus wrote...
What dou you mean with crippled? Just imagine:  Enemy engineers use could use neural shock on the soldier. Adreanline rush cooldown gets doubled. Ymirs have advanced radar that reduces the duration of cloak. Is this crippled or balanced?

Based on your argument about Adepts, I'd probably put that in the category of revamping the system. Altering the gameplay on Insanity is what I want. Altering the gameplay overall is what I want - why shouldn't every merc you come across have shields no matter the difficulty? Why add armor to a husk? They added defenses to the enemies in ME2 because it was the easier way for them to add difficulty, I suppose. I don't like it.

Which doesn't take away from the fact I still had fun playing an Adept and managed to make it work for me in a system I find inherently flawed. They are two completely different subjects here.

[lazuli]

tonnactus wrote...

Not even heavy incinerate destroy the armor of a krogan. Heavy overload didnt destroy the shields of a blue sun legionaire.

Legionnaires and Krogan are supposed to be challenging opponents that require more strategy to defeat.  Krogan in ME1 were hardly the horrifying titans the lore made them out to be, except the ones that, for some reason or another, resisted Biotics.  In ME2, at least you can strip their defenses to make them susceptible to Biotics.

Would you prefer to just be able to use Pull or something to completely disable a challenging enemy?  The game would be a cakewalk without defenses.

I think the developers realized that Biotics need a weakness.  In ME1, their weakness was that it was difficult to spam them.  Prohibitive cooldown periods meant that you needed to tweak your build and equipment excessively before you could use these powers more than twice a fight.  In ME2, the long cooldowns would be terrible with the universal cooldown system in place.  So there are defenses.

I like defenses.  They force the player to use different strategies and weapons to defeat enemies.  It mixes up the combat and adds another layer to it.  I hope they return in some form in ME3.

[The Spamming Troll]

adding defensive layers to enemies doesnt really create more strategies. it just means you shoot longer, which was the problem with insanity in ME1 to begin with. ME is kept apart from other third person shooters because of its biotic and tech powers, meaning i play ME because i like doing other things then shooting a gun which is what i do in every other shooter besides bioshock. adding enemy protections means those very abilities im leveling up mean squat untill i unload a clip into an enemy. sure biotic are fun, but when im restricted to using only my weapon as an adept there is something fundamentally wrong with that. the adept uses there weapons just as much as a soldier, and i have a problem with that kind of logic in devising a game like ME. its like putting limitations on the force in star wars. its stupid.



let shepard be overpowered its as simple as that.

[Pacifien]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
let shepard be overpowered its as simple as that.

If you want an overpowered Shepard, play on casual. Making him overpowered on Veteran and above completely defeats the purpose of having higher difficulty settings. Even on a revamped system for ME3, I'd say the only overpowered Shepard experience should be on casual.

[The Spamming Troll]

true. i got a little excited.



im trying to think of a solution to ability usage and enemy protections for ME3. i dont think bioware wants to introduce a 3rd brand new ability system for ME3 so im taking into account what theyve done with ME1 and ME2 and trying to figure the best combination of the two.



maybe something like ME2s but take out the majority of enemy protections. it seams like a bad addition to the harder difficulties. its like taking the easy route. id rather see more enemies, tougher enemies, higher level enemies, enemies with heavy weapons, biotics like throw or stasis and more use of tech abilities as well. make the enemies deadlier rather then adding a fake layer of defense. i do like having only one cooldown to maintain it makes gameplay alot more fluid. which brings me to another point, why cant we map more then three abilities? we should be able to set our controls how we the players like them setup. doesnt that make sense im not playing in a nintendo controller here.

[Captain Jazz]

tonnactus wrote...

Infiltrators. Enemies with an anti-cloak device didnt exist. Funny ,though, because the normandy was detected by the collector ship.

Ground troops tend not to have the same suites of detection devices embedded in their faces as might be found upon inspection of a collector vessel. Cloaking isn't really their central power though, is it? The time dilation when using the sniper rifle is and... oh hey, the enemy can easily stop that being effective by having shields up. Damn them, why must they nerf the infiltrator so!
Incidentally, the infiltrator is my favourite class and, rather than whine about it's short comings, I whip the SMG out and wipe out the shields when faced with Infiltrator's Bane.

The interesting thing is that you're still insisting that the adept is useless against shields (*cough* you have an SMG and TWO teammates who have a selection of powers to complement your own which you can use to deal with shields *cough*) and that you have to spam warp to get through barriers and armour... but don't soldiers have to spam bullets to do the same? Don't engineers have to spam overload and incinerate? Sure, you can call sensible use of abilities for their intended purpose spamming, but I prefer to call it sensible use of abilities for their intended purpose (Also, you have a pistol with which to work through armour, you have an SMG with which to work through barriers and you have those two teammates who are probably not too shabby when it comes to stripping defenses away.)
I do understand the frustration at not being able to use the core powers without taking the defenses away, but consider this analogy: Have you ever tried eating mussels without taking them out of the shell first? (I wouldn't bother to be honest, they're pretty disgusting.) Sure, Virmire would've been easier if we could've nuked it from orbit, I imagine the same is true of Torfan, but people make defenses for exactly this reason. People don't try to develop armour that makes certain attacks LESS effective, they try to develop armour that makes those attacks INeffective obviously the fail to make them ineffective, but they go beyond merely lessening the effectiveness (that's why your team members have specialities btw.)

I have to agree that the class could use improvements, as could all of the other classes (8 seconds for an enhanced cloak?? Are you KIDDING me? Who ever managed to completely flank an enemy unit in 8 seconds?) and insanity difficulty is.... well, insane... but the adept class is fun to play. It's not as fun as infiltrator but it's far more fun than vanguard (*CHARGE*-dead. (Because I have yet to find a style that suits both the vanguard and myself, not because the vanguard is a bad class.))

I bet, if you reply, you'll only quote "Cloaking isn't really their central power though, is it?"
Or maybe this bit...
I suppose I should know better than to argue on the internets by now. <_<

Modifié par Captain Jazz, 28 juin 2010 - 04:38 .

[lazuli]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

adding defensive layers to enemies doesnt really create more strategies. it just means you shoot longer, which was the problem with insanity in ME1 to begin with. ME is kept apart from other third person shooters because of its biotic and tech powers, meaning i play ME because i like doing other things then shooting a gun which is what i do in every other shooter besides bioshock. adding enemy protections means those very abilities im leveling up mean squat untill i unload a clip into an enemy. sure biotic are fun, but when im restricted to using only my weapon as an adept there is something fundamentally wrong with that. the adept uses there weapons just as much as a soldier, and i have a problem with that kind of logic in devising a game like ME. its like putting limitations on the force in star wars. its stupid.

let shepard be overpowered its as simple as that.

Adding defensive layers diversifies the amount of skills Shepard needs to be successful.  It's a little bit of paper-rock-scissors that adds depth to the gameplay.  No, it isn't perfect.  But it works fine.  Without defenses, a Biotic's playstyle would be inane and revolve around knocking things down and that's about it.  With defenses, a Biotic needs to assess his enemies before rolling his face across the keyboard/controller.

You don't need to unload an SMG clip into a shielded enemy to strip its defenses.  Take Energy Drain and turn those shields to your advantage.  Or take Garrus, Miranda, or Kasumi and use the countermeasures Bioware built into the game.