426 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

Pacifien wrote...
And the argument tends to be why can't the Adept powers work as well on Insanity as they do on Normal. Good point. So either they revamp the system, which is something I've said should be done for ME3. Or they cripple every other class as much as they did the Adept for parity, which I doubt is what anyone wants.

Only want to revamp the system for Adepts? Then we'll never agree. Want to revamp the system for everything? We agree and should probably start a new thread.

Oh, I agree - I'm certainly not advocating an Adept only change (that
is, unless Singularity gets slightly beefed up against Shields in a
similar way to how Drone can be slightly beefed up against barriers).

Ultimately, I have nothing against rock-paper-scissors systems. The issue I have with ME2's implementation of such a system is that certain classes can only use two of the above, while others have all three. It's stupid idea. I'm all for variation, but just sticking in a weakness for sh*ts and giggles isn't a good way of balancing classes.

[JaegerBane]

lazuli wrote...
You don't need to unload an SMG clip into a shielded enemy to strip its defenses.  Take Energy Drain and turn those shields to your advantage.  Or take Garrus, Miranda, or Kasumi and use the countermeasures Bioware built into the game.

Whenever this kind of discussion occurs, inevitably, someone always brings up bonus powers and team mates as a counter-point.

Has it occured to you that *every* class in the game has access to powers and team mates? Is your concept of balance one that claims that certain classes should be self-sufficient and some be dependant on taking the right selection of extras?

The very fact that you need to take the right team mates or bonus powers when others have no need is evidence in itself that the class is disproportionately weakened. If it were just the Sentinel having access to all defence-breakers then I'd be fine with it - versatility is the forte of that class.

When *most of the classes in the game* have methods of dealing with it, that's when it becomes silly. I have no problem with certain classes having major weaknesses so long as they come with major strengths. The Adept has nothing whatsoever that compensates for it's shield weakness. Compare it to stuff like the Soldier and the Engineer and it's a joke.

[Pacifien]

JaegerBane wrote...
The very fact that you need to take the right team mates or bonus powers when others have no need is evidence in itself that the class is disproportionately weakened. If it were just the Sentinel having access to all defence-breakers then I'd be fine with it - versatility is the forte of that class.

Or that other classes are disproportionately strengthened. For as much as the developers stressed how ME2 was a game about your squadmates, Shepard should have needed to depend on them no matter what class you play.

I sort of said it in an earlier post, but if you find one class just breezes through Insanity without little worry about what enemy they're facing, then the class is poorly designed. And so is Insanity.

[JaegerBane]

Pacifien wrote...

Or that other classes are disproportionately strengthened. For as much as the developers stressed how ME2 was a game about your squadmates, Shepard should have needed to depend on them no matter what class you play.

As I said, aside from the Sentinel, I agree. The Sentinel is supposed to be a clas that trades power for versatility, so I can understand that.

What I can't understand is why Bioware would load up the soldier with all the guns, ammo and powers he'll ever need, tack on a cheesetastically-overpowered class power, then leave the biotic specialist with giant glaring hole in his abilities that single handedly contradict their catchphrase that the Adept 'is the class that can best defeat opponents without firing a shot'.

It makes me wonder if they were even *trying* to balance the classes.

On the plus side, it keeps my conscience clear when I mod up my Adept to carry two bonus powers and a heavier weapons load than the soldier. If bioware want to screw up balance of the classes, two can play at that game. I had more fun running around as an Adept with a Rev and a Viper than I'd ever have with those prima-donna Vanguards

Modifié par JaegerBane, 28 juin 2010 - 05:45 .

[Pacifien]

JaegerBane wrote...
It makes me wonder if they were even *trying* to balance the classes.

I think the only way to determine if they were trying to balance the classes is to see how they all work on Normal difficulty, where I think an Adept does just as well as any other class. In that respect, Insanity really comes across as an afterthought. Throwing a bone to those who want a greater challenge without really thinking it through.

[NICKjnp]

JaegerBane wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Or that other classes are disproportionately strengthened. For as much as the developers stressed how ME2 was a game about your squadmates, Shepard should have needed to depend on them no matter what class you play.

As I said, aside from the Sentinel, I agree. The Sentinel is supposed to be a clas that trades power for versatility, so I can understand that.

What I can't understand is why Bioware would load up the soldier with all the guns, ammo and powers he'll ever need, tack on a cheesetastically-overpowered class power, then leave the biotic specialist with giant glaring hole in his abilities that single handedly contradict their catchphrase that the Adept 'is the class that can best defeat opponents without firing a shot'.

It makes me wonder if they were even *trying* to balance the classes.

On the plus side, it keeps my conscience clear when I mod up my Adept to carry two bonus powers and a heavier weapons load than the soldier. If bioware want to screw up balance of the classes, two can play at that game. I had more fun running around as an Adept with a Rev and a Viper than I'd ever have with those prima-donna Vanguards

I don't know... modding a vanguard with two bonus powers (reave and warp ammo) and a Revenant, Claymore and Widow can be very very mean on the battlfield.

[Pacifien]

Heh. Was just imagining an Engineer with a Revenant. Like imagining Mordin with one.

[NICKjnp]

Pacifien wrote...

Heh. Was just imagining an Engineer with a Revenant. Like imagining Mordin with one.

I gave it to Grunt once.... it was on a NG+ Insanity run (I had turned on his loyalty power from the start).  Grunt was an unstoppable force.  He absolutely destroyed the enemy and with Krogan pureblood and lvl 3 fortification the enemies didn't have time to take down his defenses.

[JaegerBane]

Pacifien wrote...
I think the only way to determine if they were trying to balance the classes is to see how they all work on Normal difficulty, where I think an Adept does just as well as any other class. In that respect, Insanity really comes across as an afterthought. Throwing a bone to those who want a greater challenge without really thinking it through.

That's a fair point, actually. Normal difficulty is quite clealy labled as being the 'baseline' difficulty class, and I can't really say any of the classes feel crippled on it. That said, Insanity on ME1, for all it's faults, didn't actually force you to play the class in a completely different way to how it played on Normal. It may have made enemies stupidly tough, but it didn't mean that some classes were a nightmare to play while some didn't change at all.

Indeed, Insanity does seem like an afterthought. Pity.

[JaegerBane]

NICKjnp wrote...
I don't know... modding a vanguard with two bonus powers (reave and warp ammo) and a Revenant, Claymore and Widow can be very very mean on the battlfield.

Already tried it. Ironically it didn't really have much effect on how well the class played. The Vanguard isn't really a class that is well suited to using the Widow, in any case. And I still prefer the Scimitar over the Claymore, even when I can take the latter freely

Adepts with improved loadouts (Tempest, Viper, Scimitar, Revenant... and sometimes the Widow instead of a Viper), Warp Ammo and Barrier are an interesting experience. Much closer to ME1's Vanguard

[Captain Jazz]

JaegerBane wrote...
I'm all for variation, but just sticking in a weakness for silts and giggles isn't a good way of balancing classes.

How do you define weakness? I find the soldier to be the weakest class because my style of play, and my overheating laptop, makes drawn out gunbattles a one way ticket to an early grave for Shepard. According to the way I play therefore, the soldier is an entirely broken class while the adept is very well suited to me, to the point where I sometimes find that the game is dull because it's too easy.

For comparison, if I want to make it to Freedom's Progress without screaming and ripping out all my hair in frustration with the soldier or the vanguard I need to play on the lower difficulty levels, but if I want to make it there as an adept, engineer or infiltrator without falling asleep from the boredom of it I need to play on Veteran or Insanity.
Obviously the adept is not suited to your style of play so you see weakness in it, but it's one of the best for my style and I cannot find any weakness in it.

[NICKjnp]

JaegerBane wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...
I don't know... modding a vanguard with two bonus powers (reave and warp ammo) and a Revenant, Claymore and Widow can be very very mean on the battlfield.

Already tried it. Ironically it didn't really have much effect on how well the class played. The Vanguard isn't really a class that is well suited to using the Widow, in any case. And I still prefer the Scimitar over the Claymore, even when I can take the latter freely

Adepts with improved loadouts (Tempest, Viper, Scimitar, Revenant... and sometimes the Widow instead of a Viper), Warp Ammo and Barrier are an interesting experience. Much closer to ME1's Vanguard

Yeah.. I know what you are saying... but the extra bonus power makes an vanguard fun.  You can mod/remove ammo powers and give the vanguard 3 extra bonus powers if you want.  It makes the vanguard boring to play though.  I gave him reave as his starting bonus power and the other three were warp ammo, energy drain and dominate.  He became a walking weapon of mass destruction.

[JaegerBane]

Captain Jazz wrote...
How do you define weakness? 

By weakness, I mean some kind of common situation that constantly occurs in the game that a class simply doesn't have anything within it's repertoire to handle. Being forced to whittle opponents down with an SMG on a class that supposedly can finish eveything without firing a shot is, therefore, a weakness.

I find the soldier to be the weakest class because my style of play, and my overheating laptop, makes drawn out gunbattles a one way ticket to an early grave for Shepard.

Obviously the adept is not suited to your style of play so you see weakness in it, but it's one of the best for my style and I cannot find any weakness in it.

This has nothing to do with weakness. The fact that you're trying to play the game on an underpowered laptop has sod-all to do with game balance. We've already been round and round this whole myth that the game's concept of defences is somehow a product of the player's will - frankly, it's nonsense.

As I said to Pacifien, no amount of good vibes from the player will change the fact that, above Veteren, shields are common, and the Adept has no truly effective way of dealing with them - a situation where the Adept is the only specialist and caster class to suffer such a problem. It's got nowt to do with opinions or styles - this is how the game actually works.

[JaegerBane]

NICKjnp wrote...
Yeah.. I know what you are saying... but the extra bonus power makes an vanguard fun.  You can mod/remove ammo powers and give the vanguard 3 extra bonus powers if you want.  It makes the vanguard boring to play though.  I gave him reave as his starting bonus power and the other three were warp ammo, energy drain and dominate.  He became a walking weapon of mass destruction.

I'm not the greatest fan of the bonus biotic powers other than Barrier. I don't like how they work - Reave doesn't even look like a biotic power... it's bright pink, for some reason.

I did try substituting Cryo Ammo for Warp Ammo, simply by adding in the extra power and not placing any points into Cryo, but frankly, Warp and Inferno ammo don't make the best combo. Add to the fact that, for purely RP reasons, I don't like cheesing out on Biotics, Guns and tech, I just got bored.

I prefer the ME1 Vanguard biotic. Max firepower, Barrier, with full physics attacks just never got boring (I call it the blue man build). Sure, he's weak against shields, but they aren't all that common on Normal and the Arc Projector wtfpwned shields faster than any power

[Pacifien]

Arc Projector... Doesn't matter what class. I love it.

[Captain Jazz]

JaegerBane wrote...

Captain Jazz wrote...
How do you define weakness? 

By weakness, I mean some kind of common situation that constantly occurs in the game that a class simply doesn't have anything within it's repertoire to handle. Being forced to whittle opponents down with an SMG on a class that supposedly can finish eveything without firing a shot is, therefore, a weakness.

1) Shockwave damages and stuns shielded opponents,
2) Energy Drain. Yes it's a bonus power, but adepts are still allowed to use it.
3) The SMG is in the adept's repertoire. It's also not all that necessary.

JaegerBane wrote...

I find the soldier to be the weakest class because my style of play, and my overheating laptop, makes drawn out gunbattles a one way ticket to an early grave for Shepard.

Obviously the adept is not suited to your style of play so you see weakness in it, but it's one of the best for my style and I cannot find any weakness in it.

This has nothing to do with weakness. The fact that you're trying to play the game on an underpowered laptop has sod-all to do with game balance. We've already been round and round this whole myth that the game's concept of defences is somehow a product of the player's will - frankly, it's nonsense.

As I said to Pacifien, no amount of good vibes from the player will change the fact that, above Veteren, shields are common, and the Adept has no truly effective way of dealing with them - a situation where the Adept is the only specialist and caster class to suffer such a problem. It's got nowt to do with opinions or styles - this is how the game actually works.

because my style of play, and my overheating laptop

Accepting and admitting a secondary issue does not make the primary issue less of an issue. I also suck at counter strike.
I am not claiming that I can will shields not to be an issue, nor do I use good vibes or magic to do it, I am claiming that my style of play, that is to say "the way in which I play the game" as opposed to "the power of prayer" as you appear to think, makes shields only very little more of an issue than armour or barriers. This is not a matter of will, it's a matter of being able to use the class abilities effectively.
By the way, did you know that incinerate is no more effective against barriers than warp is against shields? Surely that means the engineer is another specialist caster class to suffer such a problem? (Although it isn't a problem there either.) I actually spend far more time whittling down barriered opponents as an engineer than I do whittling down shielded opponents as an adept.
Sure, it's true that the classes being less effective against one particular defense is how the game works, but I would suggest that the fact that you miss the weaknesses of the other classes and only see it in the adept (in much the same way that I see no weakness in the adept and glaring weaknesses in the soldier and vanguard) only shows that you understand the other classes better, not that the adept is inferior... because it isn't as my ability to play an adept on insanity with relative ease attests to.

Modifié par Captain Jazz, 28 juin 2010 - 09:36 .

[NICKjnp]

Reave is only pink/red when it hits health. Otherwise it makes the same blue biotic aura that other biotic powers make.

[lazuli]

JaegerBane wrote...


When *most of the classes in the game* have methods of dealing with it, that's when it becomes silly. I have no problem with certain classes having major weaknesses so long as they come with major strengths. The Adept has nothing whatsoever that compensates for it's shield weakness. Compare it to stuff like the Soldier and the Engineer and it's a joke.

I would argue that the Adept's ability to repeatedly shut down or otherwise devastate groups of undefended foes (and most defended foes with Singularity) makes up for the shield weakness.

Engineers [without Reave] can't do much more against Barriers than Adepts can against Shields.  Barriers, while not as common as Shields, pop up in all of the missions involving Collectors (arguable difficulty thresholds).  Shields don't.

I guess what I'm getting at here is that Adepts are versatile, effective, and fun, even on Insanity.  They have great strengths and plenty of options.  Enemies don't instantly die when their defenses fall, after all.

[The Spamming Troll]

everything jaegerbane is saying is absolutely 100% correct. i dont know how you can really disagree with his opinions on the combat in ME2.



my problem with the biotics is that the adept isnt the best biotic. even in ME1 an adept wasnt nessecarily the best biotic either. maybe even worse is that the three biotic classes arent the BEST biotics. ill give props to singularity and its somewhat effective but what i thought mostly unnoticable effect on enemies with defenses, but take away singularity and the adept is pointless. the soldier with slam is slightly lower quality of CCer as an adept. slightly. any class with slam is just as good as a vangaurd or sentinel. thats a huge problem for me. when i played ME2 for the first time i played an adept becasue i played ME1 30 times because biotics are the ****in business. low and behold the ME2 adept is a horrible "adept. im not comparing classes with bonus powers or squadmates in mind. they shouldnt be developed that way. adepts just cant do what they should be capable of doing within ME2s combat system. its a shame becasue i never once thought to myself while playing ME1 that "i hate throwing people into outerspace."



theres alot of small things wrong with abilities and their respective effects on enemies in ME2. hopefully ME3 can make a better system between abilities and difficulty levels.

[ArmeniusLOD]

There are some good criticisms of the adept and the combat in general here, but in my opinion it doesn't stop the class from being fun for me. My biggest issue is with the obvious lack of attention the harder difficulties got for balancing. Normal is just too easy to even bother with. Hardcore is almost in the sweet spot for me, but it is still a little too easy. The frustration of how ineffective a lot of your attacks are against the enemies and how effective the enemies' attacks are against you is what ultimately keeps me from playing Insanity. This is where just a few dozen hours of testing with multiple people playing each class could have helped. Beyond the testing time I'm sure it wouldn't have taken too much effort to balance everything out.

[lazuli]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

 but what i thought mostly unnoticable effect on enemies with defenses, but take away singularity and the adept is pointless. the soldier with slam is slightly lower quality of CCer as an adept. slightly. any class with slam is just as good as a vangaurd or sentinel.

Unless you're having Thane or Miranda popping your slams with Warp, you're not going to get any aoe at all with Slam.  And let's not forget cooldowns.  And if you take Slam, you can't take Reave to deal with defenses, which means you might need to rely on companions for help with that.  And....

JaegerBane wrote...

Whenever this kind of discussion
occurs, inevitably, someone always brings up bonus powers and team mates
as a counter-point.

Has it occured to you that *every* class in
the game has access to powers and team mates? Is your concept of balance
one that claims that certain classes should be self-sufficient and some
be dependant on taking the right selection of extras?

The Spamming Troll wrote...

everything jaegerbane is
saying is absolutely 100% correct. i dont know how you can really
disagree with his opinions on the combat in ME2.

[lazuli]

ArmeniusLOD wrote...

The frustration of how ineffective a lot of your attacks are against the enemies and how effective the enemies' attacks are against you is what ultimately keeps me from playing Insanity. This is where just a few dozen hours of testing with multiple people playing each class could have helped. Beyond the testing time I'm sure it wouldn't have taken too much effort to balance everything out.

Including even one undefended enemy in each group would be enough to tip the scales in the Adept's favor significantly.  Warp explosions right from the get-go would help deal with everyone else's defenses.

Speaking of Warp explosions, are the people who complain about the Adept's ineffectiveness on Insanity using them?

[Pacifien]

ArmeniusLOD wrote...
There are some good criticisms of the adept and the combat in general here, but in my opinion it doesn't stop the class from being fun for me.

In spite of my criticism about the adept's failings and combat in general (which is more of my recent posts than the older ones), my main point throughout the thread for "the adept isn't fun" is that I actually did have fun. On Insanity no less. No amount of griping about the class is going to prove I didn't have fun.

[The Spamming Troll]

lazuli wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

 but what i thought mostly unnoticable effect on enemies with defenses, but take away singularity and the adept is pointless. the soldier with slam is slightly lower quality of CCer as an adept. slightly. any class with slam is just as good as a vangaurd or sentinel.

Unless you're having Thane or Miranda popping your slams with Warp, you're not going to get any aoe at all with Slam.  And let's not forget cooldowns.  And if you take Slam, you can't take Reave to deal with defenses, which means you might need to rely on companions for help with that.  And....

JaegerBane wrote...

Whenever this kind of discussion
occurs, inevitably, someone always brings up bonus powers and team mates
as a counter-point.

Has it occured to you that *every* class in
the game has access to powers and team mates? Is your concept of balance
one that claims that certain classes should be self-sufficient and some
be dependant on taking the right selection of extras?

The Spamming Troll wrote...

everything jaegerbane is
saying is absolutely 100% correct. i dont know how you can really
disagree with his opinions on the combat in ME2.

im not sure what your point is.

it seems like alot of people think the adepts gameplay on insanity revolves around having the correct squadmates, the correct bonus talent, and spamming warp to create warp explosions. theres no other class that needs those things to survive insanity. its not like you "need" something to beat insanity, its just that trying to play an adept on insanity is almost imposible. the adept is left in the dust becuase they cant do what they are meant to do...."take out enemies without weapons"

personally i hate enemy defenses. it completely eliminates my emersion i had with ME1 becasue now im not watching who im killing, im only watching enemy health bars. just staring away at those little blue/yellow/red bars above the characters. waiting untill i can only see red, then and only then so i get to finally use my biotics, which is why im playing an adept. to use biotics. ive even found i try to get most enemies into the red and let them stay alive long enough for me to finally use a throw of a pull on a few of them. enemy defenses might seem ok to other classes, but classes that revolve around their abilities and only have an SMG certainly get **** on in insanity.

[Pacifien]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
it seems like alot of people think the adepts gameplay on insanity revolves around having the correct squadmates, the correct bonus talent, and spamming warp to create warp explosions.

No, not warp. Singularity!