426 réponses à ce sujet

[lazuli]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

im not sure what your point is.

it seems like alot of people think the adepts gameplay on insanity revolves around having the correct squadmates, the correct bonus talent, and spamming warp to create warp explosions. theres no other class that needs those things to survive insanity. its not like you "need" something to beat insanity, its just that trying to play an adept on insanity is almost imposible. the adept is left in the dust becuase they cant do what they are meant to do...."take out enemies without weapons"

You don't need to spam Warp and Warp explosions to beat Insanity as an adept.  It's just probably the most effective way to do it.  Just like a soldier doesn't need to use Adrenaline Rush.  But it sure helps with those one-hit Widow kills.

The Spamming Troll wrote...

personally i hate enemy defenses. it completely eliminates my emersion i had with ME1 becasue now im not watching who im killing, im only watching enemy health bars. just staring away at those little blue/yellow/red bars above the characters. waiting untill i can only see red, then and only then so i get to finally use my biotics, which is why im playing an adept. to use biotics. ive even found i try to get most enemies into the red and let them stay alive long enough for me to finally use a throw of a pull on a few of them. enemy defenses might seem ok to other classes, but classes that revolve around their abilities and only have an SMG certainly get **** on in insanity.

Enemies give visual cues when they lose their defenses.  Additionally, bullets create different visual effects depending on what sort of defense they're hitting.

It's been said before and I'll say it again.  If all you want to do is spam Throw, Pull, Shockwave, and Singularity, play on a lower difficulty level.  Insanity forces you to use different strategies before completely dispatching your opponents.  If you can't get over this, there's really no way for me to change your mind.  I don't know that I can convince you the adept you envision is horrendously overpowered.

[mcsupersport]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

lazuli wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

 but what i thought mostly unnoticable effect on enemies with defenses, but take away singularity and the adept is pointless. the soldier with slam is slightly lower quality of CCer as an adept. slightly. any class with slam is just as good as a vangaurd or sentinel.

Unless you're having Thane or Miranda popping your slams with Warp, you're not going to get any aoe at all with Slam.  And let's not forget cooldowns.  And if you take Slam, you can't take Reave to deal with defenses, which means you might need to rely on companions for help with that.  And....

JaegerBane wrote...

Whenever this kind of discussion
occurs, inevitably, someone always brings up bonus powers and team mates
as a counter-point.

Has it occured to you that *every* class in
the game has access to powers and team mates? Is your concept of balance
one that claims that certain classes should be self-sufficient and some
be dependant on taking the right selection of extras?

The Spamming Troll wrote...

everything jaegerbane is
saying is absolutely 100% correct. i dont know how you can really
disagree with his opinions on the combat in ME2.

im not sure what your point is.

it seems like alot of people think the adepts gameplay on insanity revolves around having the correct squadmates, the correct bonus talent, and spamming warp to create warp explosions. theres no other class that needs those things to survive insanity. its not like you "need" something to beat insanity, its just that trying to play an adept on insanity is almost imposible. the adept is left in the dust becuase they cant do what they are meant to do...."take out enemies without weapons"

personally i hate enemy defenses. it completely eliminates my emersion i had with ME1 becasue now im not watching who im killing, im only watching enemy health bars. just staring away at those little blue/yellow/red bars above the characters. waiting untill i can only see red, then and only then so i get to finally use my biotics, which is why im playing an adept. to use biotics. ive even found i try to get most enemies into the red and let them stay alive long enough for me to finally use a throw of a pull on a few of them. enemy defenses might seem ok to other classes, but classes that revolve around their abilities and only have an SMG certainly get **** on in insanity.

Now understand Warp DOES effect shields, so does the bonus talent Energy Drain, as well as your companions Overload, all in addition to the SMG which actually tears through shields.  You complain Adept is all about warp spam, or warp explosion spam, but say Soldiers are ok spamming AR, and Infiltrators are ok Spamming Cloaking, and Engineers are ok spamming Drones, and Sentinels are ok spamming Armor, but for some reason you can't use the best combination of talents in the Adept without it being gimped or "lame". 

You also forget or ignore that Adepts are more than just spamming warp, they can do so much more, and if you don't let them it is not because the class can't it is because you don't.  This isn't  a weakness in the class it is a weakness in the way you play.  

Husks, Scions, and Harbingers all get held and nulified by Singularity.  This makes it extremely powerful on all main Collector missions.  With the heavy cannon, and a couple of teammates singularity can make killing husks a breeze, to the point of being too easy.  Always going after the enemies with your powers forgets the enviroment in explosive containers to strip defenses.  Always exploding people forgets the quicker pull to let them drop to death in many areas.  

If for some reason you think spamming is boring then you have to hate the Vanguard because all you do is Spam charge.  You have to hate the soldier because all you do is spam AR, and so on and so forth.  I understand you don't like adepts, but that is more your playstyle rather than the class.  I can usually beat the levels faster with my adept and a good crew than just about any other group you want to take, with the exception of maybe Vanguard.

[Handren]

Biotics are useless on hardcore and insanity because everything has shields and armor, which for some reason completely nullify biotics  even though they didn`t in ME1.

Stop trying to use collector/husk missions as an equalizer. I`d be willing to bet that those missions count for about 20% of the full game, which means on higher difficulties the other 80% of game will have most enemies with armor or shields, AKA immune to biotics.

I remember when going for full gamerscore, tryig to get the "warp 20 barriers" one, I got that later in the game than any other because ONLY the collectors and some boss/miniboss enemies use barriers.

The problem is with the enemies, really. Too many have shields and not enough have barriers. It shoudl be 50/50.

I also just hate how ARMOR makes things immune to biotics, which makes no sense at all and truly pust the last nail in the Adept's nerf coffin. The lack of enemies who use barriers and the abundance of enemies who use everything else just make the adept really weak. The whole point of it in ME1 was so you could render enemies immobile for a while while whittling them down.

Modifié par Handren, 29 juin 2010 - 07:11 .

[Handren]

Aryck1095 V2 wrote...

I think should add some Biotic research projects via DLC to fix that problem with enemy defenses. Like these:

Biotic Shield Bypass
-- Requires 5000 Element Zero
-- Singularity, Throw, and Pull can now affect enemies protected by Shields and Biotic Barriers.
-- Does not apply to Harbinger, YMIR Mechs, or Gunships.

Biotic Anti-Armor
-- Requires 5000 Element Zero
-- Requires Biotic Shield Bypass
-- Singularity, Throw, and Pull can now affect enemies protected by armor.
-- Does not apply to Harbinger, YMIR Mechs, or Gunships.

Heavy Biotics
-- Requires 5000 Element Zero
-- Requires Biotic Shield Bypass
-- Requires Biotic Anti-Armor
-- Singularity, Throw, and Pull can now affect YMIR Mechs.
-- Does not apply to Gunships or Harbinger.

Cost shouldn't be a problem. If you have the long service bonuses, you should have 50,000 Element Zero on hand, plenty to research these upgrades. They could make it available through Cerberus Network.

You should work for Bioware NOW. This would make the adept awesome again. These are all I ask for. I would always play the adept if I could buy these abilities. Hell, even just the first one.

[ArmeniusLOD]

lazuli wrote...

ArmeniusLOD wrote...

The frustration of how ineffective a lot of your attacks are against the enemies and how effective the enemies' attacks are against you is what ultimately keeps me from playing Insanity. This is where just a few dozen hours of testing with multiple people playing each class could have helped. Beyond the testing time I'm sure it wouldn't have taken too much effort to balance everything out.

Including even one undefended enemy in each group would be enough to tip the scales in the Adept's favor significantly.  Warp explosions right from the get-go would help deal with everyone else's defenses.

Speaking of Warp explosions, are the people who complain about the Adept's ineffectiveness on Insanity using them?

Oh yes, I do utilize Warp explosions to their fullest.  Once I discovered the power of Unstable Warp I have never gone back to Heavy.  On Collector missions I'll bring Thane with Heavy and Samara/Morinth with Pull.  When he one-shots someone's Barrier I'll follow up with a Pull from Samara/Morinth and an Unstable Warp from myself.  It completely decimates everyone around, defenses and all.
Singularity is also a lot more useful than I've been reading about.  An enemy goes down quickly when it's trapped and you shoot it with Warp Ammo.   Most of the time you only need to have one enemy locked down on the field to tip the battle in your favor.

[tonnactus]

Captain Jazz wrote...

3) The SMG is in the adept's repertoire. It's also not all that necessary.

But this is wrong and dumb a the same time. A jedi that have to use his lightsword to destroy the armor of an opponent before he could use the force...

It have to work in the other order: Control the enemie and finish him off with weapons instead of weaken the enemie with weapons and then using biotics. That was the way in the first game (and it make sense for a crowd control class) and it was a lot more entertaining for me. And all enemies were affected. Make heavy weapons exclusive to the soldier,but let the adept use lift on enemies including ymirs.

[tonnactus]

NICKjnp wrote...

Reave is only pink/red when it hits health. Otherwise it makes the same blue biotic aura that other biotic powers make.

Warp ammo has also a pink animation on the weapon...

[tonnactus]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

everything jaegerbane is saying is absolutely 100% correct. i dont know how you can really disagree with his opinions on the combat in ME2.

my problem with the biotics is that the adept isnt the best biotic. 

It absurd that the sentinel got better damage or cooldown times then the adept and the engineer.Who thought that was a good idea???

[tonnactus]

lazuli wrote...
.

Speaking of Warp explosions, are the people who complain about the Adept's ineffectiveness on Insanity using them?

They do double damage to the affected enemy enemy but only normal damage to enemies around who are not affected. 160 points is not that much. Cast the explosive drone at a strong and nearby enemy and you get even better damage( because there are no requirements: An enemy didnt have to be stripped of "defenses" first".
Affected by an other biotic
And then followed with an warp.

In the time the adept got an explosion with warp the engineer could get three or more exploded drones.Or compare this with the assault armor explosion.

[Spornicus]

Adept forces you to be strategic with your squadmate selection. On soldier you can just beast through everything, and squadmate powers are just an added bonus. On adept, you have to mix your powers with those of your squadmates. It's a thinking man's class.

[lazuli]

tonnactus wrote...

It have to work in the other order: Control the enemie and finish him off with weapons instead of weaken the enemie with weapons and then using biotics. That was the way in the first game (and it make sense for a crowd control class) and it was a lot more entertaining for me. And all enemies were affected. Make heavy weapons exclusive to the soldier,but let the adept use lift on enemies including ymirs.

And it was imbalanced in the first game.  Singularity is almost always an instant win.  The game you want to play would be mind-numbingly easy, even with the changes and counterbalances you proposed earlier in this thread.

[NICKjnp]

tonnactus wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

Reave is only pink/red when it hits health. Otherwise it makes the same blue biotic aura that other biotic powers make.

Warp ammo has also a pink animation on the weapon...

Warp ammo is purple.

[NICKjnp]

Handren wrote...

Biotics are useless on hardcore and insanity because everything has shields and armor, which for some reason completely nullify biotics  even though they didn`t in ME1.

Warp and reave both damage armor and barrier (reave does double damage to those).  A combat drone is the only non-biotic power that can do full damage to barrier (and it has to be upgraded in order to do so).  Warp and reave both damage shields just not as good as overload.

[The Spamming Troll]

lazuli wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

personally i hate enemy defenses. it completely eliminates my emersion i had with ME1 becasue now im not watching who im killing, im only watching enemy health bars. just staring away at those little blue/yellow/red bars above the characters. waiting untill i can only see red, then and only then so i get to finally use my biotics, which is why im playing an adept. to use biotics. ive even found i try to get most enemies into the red and let them stay alive long enough for me to finally use a throw of a pull on a few of them. enemy defenses might seem ok to other classes, but classes that revolve around their abilities and only have an SMG certainly get **** on in insanity.

Enemies give visual cues when they lose their defenses.  Additionally, bullets create different visual effects depending on what sort of defense they're hitting.

It's been said before and I'll say it again.  If all you want to do is spam Throw, Pull, Shockwave, and Singularity, play on a lower difficulty level.  Insanity forces you to use different strategies before completely dispatching your opponents.  If you can't get over this, there's really no way for me to change your mind.  I don't know that I can convince you the adept you envision is horrendously overpowered.

my goal isnt to play on casual so i can actually use biotics the way they should really be intended to be used for. thats not the answer, not even close. theres a difference between guns and abilities and im looking to use my abilities more, not my guns less. im certainly not looking for you to change my mind nor should you be trying to. as a matter of fact ive been trying veteran difficulty without upgrading health or my weapons in order to play as what in my mind is how the adept should be played as well as be challenged. overpowered is bad? im ****ing commander sheaprd so yes im going to be overpowered. if you ask me harbinger is the overpowered one. id rather have ME1s version of insanity then what i have for ME2.

mcsupersport wrote...

Now understand Warp DOES
effect shields, so does the bonus talent Energy Drain, as well as your
companions Overload, all in addition to the SMG which actually tears
through shields.  You complain Adept is all about warp spam, or warp
explosion spam, but say Soldiers are ok spamming AR, and Infiltrators
are ok Spamming Cloaking, and Engineers are ok spamming Drones, and
Sentinels are ok spamming Armor, but for some reason you can't use the
best combination of talents in the Adept without it being gimped or
"lame". 

You also forget or ignore that Adepts are more than
just spamming warp, they can do so much more, and if you don't let them
it is not because the class can't it is because you don't.  This
isn't  a weakness in the class it is a weakness in the way you play.  

Husks,
Scions, and Harbingers all get held and nulified by Singularity.  This
makes it extremely powerful on all main Collector missions.  With the
heavy cannon, and a couple of teammates singularity can make killing
husks a breeze, to the point of being too easy.  Always going after the
enemies with your powers forgets the enviroment in explosive containers
to strip defenses.  Always exploding people forgets the quicker pull to
let them drop to death in many areas.  

If for some reason you
think spamming is boring then you have to hate the Vanguard because all
you do is Spam charge.  You have to hate the soldier because all you do
is spam AR, and so on and so forth.  I understand you don't like adepts,
but that is more your playstyle rather than the class.  I can usually
beat the levels faster with my adept and a good crew than just about any
other group you want to take, with the exception of maybe Vanguard.

i
feel like i just got lectured on how to enjoy a videogame
appropriately. i dont use energy drain, i dont bring along squad mates
with overload nor did i ever say adepts only spam warp or
singularity(which is exactly what an adept doesn anyways) nor did i say
anything about any other class spamming another ability. thers no
combination of abilities to use as an adept. sure the adept can use
throw or pull but why? they have singularity to throw out there every 6
seconds. why use anything other then singularity, and dont tell me
theres situations for everything becasue there simply isnt. i like
adepts and i like vangaurds becasue i love biotics. if i play ME2 30
times like i did ME1 i want to be challeneged and i cant get that on
veteran. i cant play hardcore and insanity becasue the developers added a
fake layer of poop on every enemy that allows my adept play throughs to
look very similar to my soldeir playthroughs. and to me thats a very
bad thing. im glad you enjoy biotics on insanity, thats good for you
because i certainly do not.


it just doesnt make sense to me that a company like bioware who makes such complately different and awesome games cant come up with a good idea about ability usage and difficulty levels. if it was up to me id make ME3 adepts never use a gun. ever. i can create a force power with over 1000 newtons of force to throw someone around, but i cant use that same power to crush there skull or rip off a limb??? come on, let the adept actually "take out enemies without the use of weapons."  i really just dont see a reason to play an adept on higher difficulties anymore and that sucks for me.

[tonnactus]

lazuli wrote...


And it was imbalanced in the first game.  Singularity is almost always an instant win.  The game you want to play would be mind-numbingly easy, even with the changes and counterbalances you proposed earlier in this thread.

It isnt hard now.Just boring.Spamming singularity(because its the only effective power on "protected" enemies) and warp isnt fun.
Using heavy weapons is also boring and tediuos.Not even the cain took out an ymir on insanity in one shot and the other ones dont have enough ammo to take such an enemy down. So i had to use regular weapons to finish it off.
The engineers drone at least work as a crowd control in this case so the player didnt have to wait until the robot stops to fire his machine cannon so its possible to shoot a little.

[Pacifien]

tonnactus wrote...
Using heavy weapons is also boring and tediuos.Not even the cain took out an ymir on insanity in one shot and the other ones dont have enough ammo to take such an enemy down. So i had to use regular weapons to finish it off.
The engineers drone at least work as a crowd control in this case so the player didnt have to wait until the robot stops to fire his machine cannon so its possible to shoot a little.

Holy crap.

This is like the thread I read once where someone was incredibly irate that he was having problems with a krogan flanking him and then charging.

[Sursion]

Shieldsstoppowers = False



Adept becomes fun. Though personally, I thought the adept was fun anyways.

[tonnactus]

Pacifien wrote...


This is like the thread I read once where someone was incredibly irate that he was having problems with a krogan flanking him and then charging.

?
What else to do?Wait,until teammates reduces the shields of the ymir and then spam warp?It wouldnt be overpowered when biotics work on a heavy mech.Just with a reduced duration and some penalties.

[tonnactus]

Sursion wrote...

Shieldsstoppowers = False

Adept becomes fun. Though personally, I thought the adept was fun anyways.

Its interesting enough that this one line is enough to change the whole game. I doubt that there was a lot of thinking behind the "protection system" and obviously a very low implementation effort.

[The Spamming Troll]

and whats worse is theres alot better ideas out there then what we have in ME2. i dont let enemy protections ruin the awesomeness of ME2 but the game would make me orgasm if i could play my adept on insanity like i play it on veteran.

i dont want to be doubting if my biotics will or wont work on an enemy. like reduced effectiveness or cooldown penalties or all that shenanigans. theres shouldnt be that much thought going into biotics anyways. i just dont go along with the idea that if im wearing a little peice of armor that has no benefits to the wearer other then +5% shields, to also completely block out my use of biotics. something simple like shields/barriers should dissipate biotics and armors should protect from tech powers. i also think biotics and techs should be on seperate cooldown systems, which should have been obvious to the developers.

tonnactus wrote...
It isnt hard now.Just boring.Spamming singularity(because its the only effective power on "protected" enemies) and warp isnt fun.
Using heavy weapons is also boring and tediuos.Not even the cain took out an ymir on insanity in one shot and the other ones dont have enough ammo to take such an enemy down. So i had to use regular weapons to finish it off.
The engineers drone at least work as a crowd control in this case so the player didnt have to wait until the robot stops to fire his machine cannon so its possible to shoot a little.

this is a good point about adepts and biotic usage, especially singularity. i really hope bioware sees this topic or plays insanity with an adept in ME2 and says to themselves "we ****ed up big time with the adept." and heavy weapons seem like a waste of programming code. the advanced weapons you can specialize with on the collectors ship are better then most of the heavys anyways.

to me the adept(biotics) is what makes mass effect, mass effect. so getting biotics correct in ME3 is a big deal to me. as a matter of fact if they make biotics any less effective ill most likely pass on ME3. and this is coming from someone whose played ME1 30+ times and ME2 a handfull as well.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 30 juin 2010 - 11:50 .

[NICKjnp]

I don't even play non-biotic classes.

[RubyRed1975]

I got my insanity achievement using the Adept. It was hard because, you need to rely on your squadmates a little more and the one part that gave me a little trouble was the Collector Ship but, that was my fault for choosing the wrong squad mates. I found it challenging and I had to think out my strategy a little more but, it was pretty fun imo

[RubyRed1975]

double post..stupid computer

Modifié par RubyRed1975, 01 juillet 2010 - 12:04 .

[Pacifien]

tonnactus wrote...
What else to do?Wait,until teammates reduces the shields of the ymir and then spam warp?It wouldnt be overpowered when biotics work on a heavy mech.Just with a reduced duration and some penalties.

I'm amused more by the lament that the Cain won't take out a YMIR mech in one shot on Insanity.

Suggestions for how to improve the system in ME3 is admirable and desirable. Saying you didn't find the Adept particularly enjoyable in ME2 is understandable. That will not take away from the fact that other people have enjoyed the class across all difficulties.

"I had fun." "You just spammed warp all the time and you don't even have a way to take out shields." "Oh, you're right. I must not have had fun." You're not going to win any arguments over this.

If you really want to get a good discussion on how the system could be changed away from the "Adept: fun or not?" argument, you'd have better luck starting a new thread specifically about it.