426 réponses à ce sujet

[Average Gatsby]

Graunt wrote...

Average Gatsby wrote...

So I decided to wait until page 5 to respond to this thread, so all the grievances and arguments can be made.

Seems like people have 3 problems with the adept:

1) Its only using 1 ability (warp warp warp/sing sing sing)
2) You can't play the adept how it was supposed to be with just using biotics to own everything
3) Guns kill quicker so you just use an AR/Sniper with ______ ammo

So after I cried a bit like the rest of the criers here, I've decided, just for all ya'll, to do something special:

I'm going to do the suicide run gunless, fast, with little to no pausing, using warp/sing/pull/throw all as evenly as I can.

Just for you forum. Just for you.

And you'll be using your squad's active abilities to make your "Adept combo" work.  Yes, it's a game that has a party to control, but what class besides the Adept and to a lesser extent Sentinels require that you always have someone in your group to either strip defenses for you first, or to pull for you?

I could do it myself, but how boring would that be? And considering that the whole of mass effect is a character driven game, its kinda hard to make the argument that using squadmates is some how not playing the game as intended.

[thisisme8]

Graunt wrote...

Average Gatsby wrote...

So I decided to wait until page 5 to respond to this thread, so all the grievances and arguments can be made.

Seems like people have 3 problems with the adept:

1) Its only using 1 ability (warp warp warp/sing sing sing)
2) You can't play the adept how it was supposed to be with just using biotics to own everything
3) Guns kill quicker so you just use an AR/Sniper with ______ ammo

So after I cried a bit like the rest of the criers here, I've decided, just for all ya'll, to do something special:

I'm going to do the suicide run gunless, fast, with little to no pausing, using warp/sing/pull/throw all as evenly as I can.

Just for you forum. Just for you.

And you'll be using your squad's active abilities to make your "Adept combo" work.  Yes, it's a game that has a party to control, but what class besides the Adept and to a lesser extent Sentinels require that you always have someone in your group to either strip defenses for you first, or to pull for you?  You rarely display an Adept's power, you usually display a group with an Adept's power.

You're just fueling the fire.

**Stands back, grabs popcorn**

You'll see.

[Kronner]

thisisme8 wrote...

You're just fueling the fire.

**Stands back, grabs popcorn**

You'll see.

Agreed.
Haters gonna hate no matter what.

[Graunt]

thisisme8 wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Average Gatsby wrote...

So I decided to wait until page 5 to respond to this thread, so all the grievances and arguments can be made.

Seems like people have 3 problems with the adept:

1) Its only using 1 ability (warp warp warp/sing sing sing)
2) You can't play the adept how it was supposed to be with just using biotics to own everything
3) Guns kill quicker so you just use an AR/Sniper with ______ ammo

So after I cried a bit like the rest of the criers here, I've decided, just for all ya'll, to do something special:

I'm going to do the suicide run gunless, fast, with little to no pausing, using warp/sing/pull/throw all as evenly as I can.

Just for you forum. Just for you.

And you'll be using your squad's active abilities to make your "Adept combo" work.  Yes, it's a game that has a party to control, but what class besides the Adept and to a lesser extent Sentinels require that you always have someone in your group to either strip defenses for you first, or to pull for you?  You rarely display an Adept's power, you usually display a group with an Adept's power.

You're just fueling the fire.

**Stands back, grabs popcorn**

You'll see.

Just because you're a fanboy that doesn't change anything about what I said.  Gatsby makes great videos and could probably make a video of a pig, put lipstick on it and make you think it was a model too. 
And read the edit to my previous post.  I'm not arguing about whether or not an Adept is strong on Insanity because I already said they were.  They are just extremely dull and are pretty much just the guy that hits the red button while the other two people in your group are the two required to turn the keys.

Modifié par Graunt, 18 février 2010 - 12:09 .

[gorezeelar]

adepts take too long to kill enemies

like up in Freedom Progress, the first pack of enemies u encounter, it took me 4 try to get pass through it, but when i used infiltrator or even engineer it took less than 10 seconds

the problem is: the adept takes too long to recharge powers, and their powers is not even that powerful, adepts only have warp to take down barriers and shields, and the recharge is too long to be effective with armors, and the rest of the adept's power is only effective against enemies' health, and 99.99% of enemies in the game is equipped with either armor, barriers, or shields

when a Heavy Mech loses all of its resistance, its health can be taken care of with 3 pistol shots, so whats the point of making a character chokeful with heath-damage powers!?

[sinosleep]

Graunt it's a dumb argument. It's a team based game, who cares if he needs team mates to maximize kill speed. If he gets segments done in 2 minutes he gets em done in 2 minutes.

[thisisme8]

Graunt wrote...

And you'll be using your squad's active abilities to make your "Adept combo" work.  Yes, it's a game that has a party to control, but what class besides the Adept and to a lesser extent Sentinels require that you always have someone in your group to either strip defenses for you first, or to pull for you?  You rarely display an Adept's power, you usually display a group with an Adept's power.  And yes, I know you can pick up energy drain and essentially do all of the stripping yourself but that also slows down your gameplay immensely...which you very well know any time someone in your squad dies.

I really don't understand why people are still complaining about the "false advertising" though.  Christina already verified what some of us already said; the game was only balanced around normal.

Well, on a serious note, Graunt, you can't pick and choose the rules.  If you want the game to be balanced and Average Gatsby has offered to show you how he believes it is, you can't complain about using Squadmates because the game is also balanced around Squad based combat.

[Graunt]

sinosleep wrote...

Graunt it's a dumb argument. It's a team based game, who cares if he needs team mates to maximize kill speed. If he gets segments done in 2 minutes he gets em done in 2 minutes.

How about doing the same segment as a Vanguard with a character that has pull and a character that has Warp?  Shotgun blast one so it has no shields, pull it then explode it and see how long it takes you to do the same thing.

Well, on a serious note, Graunt, you can't pick and choose the rules. 
If you want the game to be balanced and Average Gatsby has offered to
show you how he believes it is, you can't complain about using
Squadmates because the game is also balanced around Squad based combat.

Except that it's not.  You rarely see Vanguard videos of constantly using squad activated abilities, and while I'm not going to say I never use them at all, I rarely had to use them through insanity as a Soldier when all that was really required was toggling between Disruptor and AP ammo.  Just like a Vanguard is very weak against enemies they can't charge, an Adept gets weaker and weaker as each ally dies.  This is true to an extent for all classes but not nearly to the same degree.

Modifié par Graunt, 18 février 2010 - 12:25 .

[CubemonkeyNYC]

Lycidas wrote...

CubemonkeyNYC wrote...

Lycidas:

The problem is that you're wrong about what adepts are all about. I've never played my adept as a crowd control class, whether on Normal or Insanity. I treat it as a burst damage + guns class.

This isn't DA:O. There's no CC.

Err right ...

I'm completely serious. I've played CC classes going back to everquest. The adept isn't a CC class. Or, at least, the most effective way I've found to play it is not as a CC class.

Treat it like a wizard: AOE burst damage. The obvious difference is that you need to use combos to get the most out of your damage potential. I almost never use singularity to simply hold an enemy, regardless of difficulty. I almost always use it on a target near other mobs so that I can instantly follow it with a warp from Miranda or Thane to cause the most damage. Same with lift/area lift. It takes little more than one heavy shock from Miranda or Garrus to de-shield a mercenary, and I quickly follow with a pull (1pt) and unstable warp. Nearby enemies stumble (at least), and I can pop up to take some shots myself or have Garrus squeeze off a concussive shot to keep the pain coming.

The only time that I've used singularity as CC was against Harbinger on Horizon and one of the scions on Horizon. Usually my singularities/lifts are detonated as soon as they hit.

I used to wonder why people said that they died frequently on insanity as an adept. I rarely die. Usually I just mow straight through targets. Same playstyle that I had on normal, though I think more about which squadmates I bring and where I place them during fights.

And, most importantly, it's extremely fun.

[GCreature]

Great... people are complaining about using guns and squad mates... In a third person shooter that's built around using a squad...



I lawled.

[Average Gatsby]

Graunt wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Average Gatsby wrote...

So I decided to wait until page 5 to respond to this thread, so all the grievances and arguments can be made.

Seems like people have 3 problems with the adept:

1) Its only using 1 ability (warp warp warp/sing sing sing)
2) You can't play the adept how it was supposed to be with just using biotics to own everything
3) Guns kill quicker so you just use an AR/Sniper with ______ ammo

So after I cried a bit like the rest of the criers here, I've decided, just for all ya'll, to do something special:

I'm going to do the suicide run gunless, fast, with little to no pausing, using warp/sing/pull/throw all as evenly as I can.

Just for you forum. Just for you.

And you'll be using your squad's active abilities to make your "Adept combo" work.  Yes, it's a game that has a party to control, but what class besides the Adept and to a lesser extent Sentinels require that you always have someone in your group to either strip defenses for you first, or to pull for you?  You rarely display an Adept's power, you usually display a group with an Adept's power.

You're just fueling the fire.

**Stands back, grabs popcorn**

You'll see.

Just because you're a fanboy that doesn't change anything about what I said.  And read the edit to my previous post.

EDIT: I need to keep going with this one.

Saying the adept using squadmates to help with biotic combos is somehow weak is like like saying that the soldier using guns is weak. Biotic combos are the core of how the adept is intended to be played, and notice that you are given jacob, jack, samara, thane, miranda, morinth who can all help you create a biotic combo. So if half of all your squadmates have either pull or warp, isn't it pretty foolish to just ignore their combo creating capacity when clearly you are given every opportunity to use them.

All classes must use squadmates in some capacity to operate at absolutely peak performance. It is definitely easier to solo with some classes than others, and its very difficult/boring to solo with the adept, but since on this thread people are talking about maxes and not minimums, it is totally appropriate to use squadmates.

Am I mainly showing off the power of a squad of adepts. Absolutely, because I feel that is how they operate most effectively. In fact, the adept has the unique advantage over many other classes in that its abilities work in synergies with squadmate powers, which requires a lot of tactical thinking, something which I enjoy about playing the adept. And I am not by any means saying another class requires less, I'm just saying the nature of that unique thinking is appealing to me.

The reason why I feel the need to respond, and respond by making a video, is because I see CERTAIN "not fun" arguments as flawed. Let me explain. When someone says "The Adept isn't fun because I don't like the color of the blue-purple that warp is" that is a totally reasonable position to take on why that person feels the way they do about the adept. If they say they don't like it because they "can't solo well", that is also totally reasonable.

However, if someone says "I don't like the adept because I can't kill things good" then I have a problem with it because now they are making a statement about gameplay which I have evidence which shows its false. I'm not going to say the adept is the best class, but to say you can't use abilities well or you can't kill anything or you have to only use one move is not an accurate statement. Those are the objections I'm seeking to answer.

A final note on my intensions. While you, Graunt, have provided many insightful comments and advice because you are a master at the game, all of my videos except the montages are for helping people. Playing gimped really wouldn't help anyone, so thats why I don't do it.

However, if you want to see the adept hold his own, watch my Advanced Biotic Combos video from 5:58 to 8:22 seconds where I hold off infinitely respawning mercs, with no squadmates, without firing my gun, without using a bonus power, and using Warp, Singularity, Pull, and Throw.

[VirtualAlex]

The AverageGats videos sure do make it look fun...



Adept is a more tactical class which relies more on squadies than personal abilities. Bottom line is, ammo is the great equalizer in ME2. All classes have access to bullets and guns. SMG is good vs shields, pistol good vs Armor. The adept does not lack any tools. Using the correct guns, and using squad power correctly will allow you to use your powers successfully. Going from soldier or vangaurd to adept is probably a shock since those classes don't need any help, but if you really think about it they don't do anything special other than use bullets to do work. Adept can do that too, with a little more flair in the finale.

[rumination888]

CubemonkeyNYC wrote...

I'm completely serious. I've played CC classes going back to everquest. The adept isn't a CC class. Or, at least, the most effective way I've found to play it is not as a CC class.

Treat it like a wizard: AOE burst damage. The obvious difference is that you need to use combos to get the most out of your damage potential. I almost never use singularity to simply hold an enemy, regardless of difficulty. I almost always use it on a target near other mobs so that I can instantly follow it with a warp from Miranda or Thane to cause the most damage. Same with lift/area lift. It takes little more than one heavy shock from Miranda or Garrus to de-shield a mercenary, and I quickly follow with a pull (1pt) and unstable warp. Nearby enemies stumble (at least), and I can pop up to take some shots myself or have Garrus squeeze off a concussive shot to keep the pain coming.

The only time that I've used singularity as CC was against Harbinger on Horizon and one of the scions on Horizon. Usually my singularities/lifts are detonated as soon as they hit.

I used to wonder why people said that they died frequently on insanity as an adept. I rarely die. Usually I just mow straight through targets. Same playstyle that I had on normal, though I think more about which squadmates I bring and where I place them during fights.

And, most importantly, it's extremely fun.

Sentinel is by far the best burst AoE class.

[Average Gatsby]

Graunt wrote...

 And yes, I know you can pick up energy drain and essentially do all of the stripping yourself but that also slows down your gameplay immensely...which you very well know any time someone in your squad dies.

I really don't understand why people are still complaining about the "false advertising" though.  Christina already verified what some of us already said; the game was only balanced around normal.

Just an aside on last point, but saying that a class is slow doesn't mean that a class isn't fun. Also if squadmates are dying, thats also because the player her/his self most of the time isn't skilled with placing them or doesn't take the time to. Many times people don't find things fun when they aren't good at them. And if you say that the class is no fun because you don't like squadmates, I won't disagree with you because thats an opinion, not a reason. If you say its no fun because its only 1 or 2 abilities, then that is an opinion mixed in with facts that can be shown as accurate or inaccurate. I may not be able to change the opinion of fun or not, but I can show that the reasoning is flawed.

[Graunt]

Average Gatsby wrote...

Am I mainly showing off the power of a squad of adepts. Absolutely,
because I feel that is how they operate most effectively. In fact, the
adept has the unique advantage over many other classes in that its
abilities work in synergies with squadmate powers, which requires a lot
of tactical thinking, something which I enjoy about playing the adept.
And I am not by any means saying another class requires less, I'm just
saying the nature of that unique thinking is appealing to me.

I have no desire to argue opinions, but there's very little in the way of "tactical thinking" with an Adept.  Warp to strip, Singularity to "hold" harbingers and scions as well as to group up stripped enemies, use pull from a squad member if needed because you had to use your own Warp and then Warp to explode.  That's the entire Adept experience through the whole game.

And your analogy of Adept + squad = Soldier + guns was pretty weak.  The Soldier is based around gun play and doesn't NEED a squad to shoot.  The Adept is based around biotics and it's just your opinion that it's based around squad combos when it's clearly able to be extremely effective solo on normal.

Modifié par Graunt, 18 février 2010 - 12:42 .

[SwiftSweeper]

GCreature wrote...

Great... people are complaining about using guns and squad mates... In a third person shooter that's built around using a squad...

I lawled.

Agreed, it is funny how people have to make up their own rules to prove that Adept is gimped.  It is perfectly fine to use guns as Adept.  Why would Adept have access to guns otherwise?

Relying on squadmates is fine also.  It is a squad based game to begin with. 

[Bron Avery]

How is singularity not fun. It is directly about throwing people up in the air.

[Average Gatsby]

Graunt wrote...

Average Gatsby wrote...

Am I mainly showing off the power of a squad of adepts. Absolutely,
because I feel that is how they operate most effectively. In fact, the
adept has the unique advantage over many other classes in that its
abilities work in synergies with squadmate powers, which requires a lot
of tactical thinking, something which I enjoy about playing the adept.
And I am not by any means saying another class requires less, I'm just
saying the nature of that unique thinking is appealing to me.

I have no desire to argue opinions, but there's very little in the way of "tactical thinking" with an Adept.  Warp to strip, Singularity to "hold" harbingers and scions as well as to group up stripped enemies and Warp to explode.  That's the entire Adept experience through the whole game.

Just listing abilities in an order may create the illusion that what is being said is the actual gameplay experience of the adept. But lets actually consider what you've said instead of make the comment of "then soldier's tactical thinking would be just to click the mouse" because both of those are wrong.

1st, warp to strip. If you're playing the adept well, then you know that not all enemies are created equally. Therefore, you have to be very careful with which enemy you target with warp in order to maximize your later combo. That requires thinking as to how the AI is going to move in a situation and picking the enemy which will most likely be bunched with another so the warp detonation can be effective.

2nd Singularity to hold. scions or harbinger or collect groups of enemies is actually a thinking choice. Very few times in battle will you fight 1 without the other. You have to choose which enemies singularity will be used best against. You also have to keep in mind that you will then have to wait 4.5 seconds before another is available, and when you are a class that is as weak as the adept is at close quarters, that is life and death. So you have to think in order to use that ability effectively. Do you hold down harbinger or do you use it to push the collector assassin out from cover?

3rd Warp to detonate. First, you have to decide when you're going to detonate. Will you detonate immediately or will you wait and see if enemies will group. Detonating yourself means 6 seconds with no powers. Detonating with a squadmate means 9 seconds with no powers from their end. You have to decide when to use detonate to be most effective. The reason why completely decimated the second platform on my adepts don't need guns video is because I had to think of when the perfect moment to spring my nuke trap was.

So if your succeeding as an adept, as in playing and playing well, then it does take a little thought.

[Average Gatsby]

Graunt wrote...

And your analogy of Adept + squad = Soldier + guns was pretty weak.  The Soldier is based around gun play and doesn't NEED a squad to shoot.  The Adept is based around biotics and it's just your opinion that it's based around squad combos when it's clearly able to be extremely effective solo on normal.

Its a strong analogy because they are essential game mechanics. The entire adept is based around, as said in the video, CC. That infers that the killing is done through synergies with squadmates.

[Kilmiina]

I just wrapped up my first Adept playthrough on insanity and I have to say that it was far more enjoyable than the one I did as a soldier. Warp, singularity, throw. Tap into Tali's bonus power or just bring Miranda or Garrus for shield burning powers. Awesome class and my favorite so far

[skarlson]

Gatsby,



I am not sure your soldier/adept comparison is really valid. In order for you to compare the two it would be more appropriate to say adepts shouldn't need to rely on squadmates to perform biotic combos is like saying soldier's shouldn't need to rely on squadmates to use guns. However, soldiers at not reliant on squadmates to use guns so if you are saying adepts need to be reliant on squadmates by design then by implication soldiers are stronger due to the lack of a reliance on squadmates to perform their primary function of shooting things.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Average Gatsby wrote...

Graunt wrote...

And your analogy of Adept + squad = Soldier + guns was pretty weak.  The Soldier is based around gun play and doesn't NEED a squad to shoot.  The Adept is based around biotics and it's just your opinion that it's based around squad combos when it's clearly able to be extremely effective solo on normal.

Its a strong analogy because they are essential game mechanics. The entire adept is based around, as said in the video, CC. That infers that the killing is done through synergies with squadmates.

Squad mates are not extensions of the adept. If squad mates were entensions of the adept he would have a passive that gave bonuses ot squad members that would help them stay alive.

Instead, all of his powers are biotics and his passive is about helping his biotics perform better. He is supposed to be the biotic master.

Biotics are gimped on insanity and weapons + ammo are not. That is why the soldier classes dominate and play the same regardless of difficulty level and the adept is relegated to mostly spamming singularity and warp..

[Mavkiel]

I am not sure how anyone can like the adept on any hardcore+ game. I suppose its because I always hated the warp skill. And sing was never really popular with me either.

The adept in me1 (for me) was all about lifting my enemies and flinging them about. Instead in me2, I found myself constantly using warp to strip off defenses. Also, if I used heavy throw on an unprotected enemy it was not uncommon for them to take next to no damage, even if they hit a wall right behind them. This made me scratch my head. Something hitting you with "hurricane" strength and slamming you into a brick wall ought to leave a scratch.

[skarlson]

I would also add on the presentation video for Adepts it says they are able to control opponents using only THEIR biotic powers which is demonstrated on screen by the biotic pulling off a pull/throw combo. The intent is for them to be able to do their own combos not combos with squadmates although that is certainly also a possibility and was another intent I am sure. Also, in mass effect 2 no one is better at controlling the battlefield than an adept; from the class reveal again. The balancing someone mentioned, where the game was balanced around normal not insanity, again speaks of the intent with adepts which is for the most part they are supposed to be able to control the battlefield. If the intent is the game is balanced around normal and if you want to play insanity then do so at your own risk, take it as it is, then fine but don't pretend that things are equally fine between all classes.

[Average Gatsby]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Biotics are gimped on insanity and weapons + ammo are not. That is why the soldier classes dominate and play the same regardless of difficulty level and the adept is relegated to mostly spamming singularity and warp..

I'm definitely not disagreeing with the assertion that biotics are gimped on insanity. I mean thats the very reason why I'm making my guides. Kind of silly to make a guide of something that was just easy mode. And I would say that the soldier does in fact play the same on all difficulties.

However, the soldiers play is the simplest of all classes. Its simplicity is its strength. It has a super damage mode and ammo and thats it, and as long as you are good at shooting and picking up ammo, then it is a very effective class. That's the appeal of the soldier is that you only need to be concerned with you're own accuracy in shooting and moving shepard around the map.

The adept is more for people who aren't good at shooting. While it is better to use a gun, the adept can, on any difficulty, get through most missions without shooting. I don't play that way because that is not the best way to play, but for people who miss alot, it is a good class for them. They have to make up the ability of being an innaccurate shot with the ability to manage their teammates well.

As to the domination of the soldier class, I personally don't agree but that isn't really the point of discussion on the thread so I'll assume for arguments sake that the soldier is in fact the best class in the game. This in no way means that the adept is therefor "bad" or not fun, unless your definition of fun is the same as whatever the best class is. An adept can still be effective even if it is not AS good as another class. I'm arguing that the adept and all its abilites are effective.

When you compare adepts to soldiers and say one is more effective than the other, then your argument has actually changed from the adepts effectiveness (which would be being able to complete a mission in a low amount of time by using multiple abilities) to an argument of comparison between the two. I'm only trying to argue that the adept is effective, not that it is More effective than X because that's not the point of the OP.